The Hindu's fight against rape

by Rishi Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:34 pm

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article4249405.ece?ref=video

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article4249597.ece?ref=video

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:53 pm

prabha sridevan A+

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:45 am

here is the context to the panchAli sabatham verse that prabha sridevan made a passing reference to. bhImA gives a bit of preamble before that verse. he says:

"we had vested such faith and esteem in you as the emperor
you lost it all in a moment of weakness
you lost our land, lost us into slavery, but what you did next,
to gamble drupadA's daughter, drishtadyumnA's sibling,
that is unpardonable."

சக்கர வர்த்தியென்றே - மேலாம்
தன்மை படைத்திருந்தோம்
பொக்கென ஓர்கணத்தே - எல்லாம்
போகத் தொலைத்துவிட்டாய்.

நாட்டை எல்லாம் தொலைத்தாய் - அண்ணே
நாங்கள் பொறுத்திருந்தோம்.
மீட்டும் எமையடிமை - செய்தாய்
மேலும் பொறுத்திருந்தோம்

துருபதன் மகளை - திட்டத்
துய்மன் உடன்பிறப்பை
இருபகடை என்றாய் - ஐயோ
இவர்க் கடிமை என்றாய்

and here comes the verse that prabha sridevan quoted, presumably addressed to his younger brother arjunA

இது பொறுப்பதில்லை - தம்பி
எரிதழல் கொண்டுவா
கதிரை வைத்திழந்தான் - அண்ணன்
கையை எரித்திடுவோம்

he says (presumably to younger brother arjunA):

"bring me a smoldering flame, so we can burn the hand (yudishtra's) that gambled draupadi away"

bharathi stands alone in his ability to turn tamil hearts to jelly.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:03 am

thanks again for posting. i've been watching these videos a little at a time. a very timely discussion. one thing that bothered me is what the civil rights activist and lawyer nagasila said in her remarks, "the law has changed from a victims statement needing corroboration, to a victim's statement being enough to win conviction". if that's true, it's deeply troubling. i hope she meant enough for bringing a criminal suit against someone, not conviction.

later in her remarks, she says, "lowering the standards of proof is a dangerous trend because just as we don't want our daughters to become victims, we don't want our sons to be at the receiving end either". so it appears the standards of proof have indeed become lax.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:23 am

at least one speaker, young pushkal shivam, made a reference to the lancet article we have all discussed here before, and pointed out that the high rate of female foeticide in second pregnancies when the first born is a female, is proof that in such a society the value of a woman is lower.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:46 am

supriya rao the final panelist who spoke was an embarrassment. her big q was, " who will marry a girl who is raped?", and her solution to rape was castration.

by Merlot Daruwala Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:53 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:thanks again for posting. i've been watching these videos a little at a time. a very timely discussion. one thing that bothered me is what the civil rights activist and lawyer nagasila said in her remarks, "the law has changed from a victims statement needing corroboration, to a victim's statement being enough to win conviction". if that's true, it's deeply troubling. i hope she meant enough for bringing a criminal suit against someone, not conviction.

later in her remarks, she says, "lowering the standards of proof is a dangerous trend because just as we don't want our daughters to become victims, we don't want our sons to be at the receiving end either". so it appears the standards of proof have indeed become lax.

This is why I'm so uneasy with those hang-those-rapists mobs in Delhi. The record of fast track courts and special laws in India is not at all inspiring. Every time laws were framed in response to popular demand, which diluted the defendant's rights or of legal standards of evidence, the outcome has been rampant (and shameless) misuse of such laws by the cops. POTA was one such horror.

Rape is a particularly dangerous territory to talk about lowering standards of proof because it is already a lopsided crime where the burden of proving innocence is on the defendant instead of the burden of proof being on the prosecution.

Worse still, newspapers here are full of stories where women complain of rape when a man breaks off the relationship. And there are judges who have gone along and ruled that sex - even if consensual at the time - based on an unfulfilled promise of marriage is rape. Given such definitional misunderstanding of rape, it would be a disaster to meddle with the law based on what the crowds want.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:59 am

MD: agree with you totally, but i am afraid this is not going to get any play in this frenzied environment. but the encouraging news is that there are right thinking people at the institutional level like this woman lawyer.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:04 pm

i'm glad i watched to the end and had the singular pleasure of hearing the woman at the end barking up the wrong tree -- end online porn and reintroduce moral science classes. lovely. yes the boy who is surreptitiously jacking off to porn is always going to become a rapist.

by southindian Sat Dec 29, 2012 5:27 pm

Rishi wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article4249405.ece?ref=video

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article4249597.ece?ref=video

While delhi is the rape capital of India, rape in other cities is not too far behind.

The rape culture in India has affected another woman in Tamil Nadu and why is she any different than the rape victim in Delhi. I would be more worried about my state than any other part of India.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/tamil-nadu/six-held-for-tamil-nadu-gang-rape/article4241887.ece

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:08 pm

southindian -- are you comprehension impaired? this was a public discussion event conducted by the hindu in chennai where the participants included local stakeholders -- the local press, a judge who served on the madras high court, students from iit madras and ethiraj college, a local civil rights lawyer, and a local deputy commissioner of police who happened to be a woman.

here is a suggestion which you should feel free to ignore -- watch the videos.

by southindian Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:24 pm

Max, I don't always make posts on thread's topic. I will continue to do so if I feel I have something on my mind not relevant to the topic. You can choose to ignore... or not.

I'm more concerned about 6 men raping a woman in Tamil Nadu four days ago.

The rape culture took toll on yet another innocent woman in India.

by artood2 Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:55 pm

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:thanks again for posting. i've been watching these videos a little at a time. a very timely discussion. one thing that bothered me is what the civil rights activist and lawyer nagasila said in her remarks, "the law has changed from a victims statement needing corroboration, to a victim's statement being enough to win conviction". if that's true, it's deeply troubling. i hope she meant enough for bringing a criminal suit against someone, not conviction.

later in her remarks, she says, "lowering the standards of proof is a dangerous trend because just as we don't want our daughters to become victims, we don't want our sons to be at the receiving end either". so it appears the standards of proof have indeed become lax.

This is why I'm so uneasy with those hang-those-rapists mobs in Delhi. The record of fast track courts and special laws in India is not at all inspiring. Every time laws were framed in response to popular demand, which diluted the defendant's rights or of legal standards of evidence, the outcome has been rampant (and shameless) misuse of such laws by the cops. POTA was one such horror.

Rape is a particularly dangerous territory to talk about lowering standards of proof because it is already a lopsided crime where the burden of proving innocence is on the defendant instead of the burden of proof being on the prosecution.

Worse still, newspapers here are full of stories where women complain of rape when a man breaks off the relationship. And there are judges who have gone along and ruled that sex - even if consensual at the time - based on an unfulfilled promise of marriage is rape. Given such definitional misunderstanding of rape, it would be a disaster to meddle with the law based on what the crowds want.

I completely agree with you. Death sentence for anything should require a very high degree of proof and would result in lesser convictions than before. Also, quite a few "live-in" relationships end up as rape charges when the guy backs out of marriage. it would become quite a weapon for unruly elements.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:17 pm

There should be very little hesitation in cases like THIS. The judges should have leeway in awarding death sentences to Gang rapists and terrorists involving mass deaths.

dragging in rare and potential doubtful situations is the tactic followed by criminal politicians.

First implement - then reform and amend.

If 498A, POTA, etc. can be passed why not this?

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:21 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:There should be very little hesitation in cases like THIS. The judges should have leeway in awarding death sentences to Gang rapists and terrorists involving mass deaths.

dragging in rare and potential doubtful situations is the tactic followed by criminal politicians.

First implement - then reform and amend.

If 498A, POTA, etc. can be passed why not this?

the inmates of tihar jail might accomplish what you want without the case ever going to trial. congratulations fellow citizen; what a civilization we have spawned!

by pravalika nanda Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:04 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i'm glad i watched to the end and had the singular pleasure of hearing the woman at the end barking up the wrong tree -- end online porn and reintroduce moral science classes. lovely. yes the boy who is surreptitiously jacking off to porn is always going to become a rapist.

** i don't think men who watch porn are capable of respecting women or treating them as equals; it changes the way they see women. porn is not something benign like too much cartoons or 90210 that we accept it as a part of daily life or as a leisure activity. if you want men to be normal, civilized and useful, you have to ban porn; it's revolting.

by Merlot Daruwala Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:13 am

pravalika nanda wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i'm glad i watched to the end and had the singular pleasure of hearing the woman at the end barking up the wrong tree -- end online porn and reintroduce moral science classes. lovely. yes the boy who is surreptitiously jacking off to porn is always going to become a rapist.

** i don't think men who watch porn are capable of respecting women or treating them as equals; it changes the way they see women. porn is not something benign like too much cartoons or 90210 that we accept it as a part of daily life or as a leisure activity. if you want men to be normal, civilized and useful, you have to ban porn; it's revolting.

Haha. Ok, ma'am. You know better.

PS: What abt women who watch porn?

by pravalika nanda Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:25 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:supriya rao the final panelist who spoke was an embarrassment. her big q was, " who will marry a girl who is raped?", and her solution to rape was castration.

**why, max, do you think you'd marry a girl who has been raped? think of all the physical and emotional ill-health it creates, apart from the social stigma. a girl who has been raped is really an untouchable. you're not in touch with reality.

**i've spoken to a few indian guys, all these wealthy doctors, bankers, consultants, they like to play golf and tennis in their free time. at the end of the day these guys just want a fine-looking, educated, worldly-wise woman with her modesty intact. you think these boys or the average indian middle-class indina boy would even consider a girl who has been raped as a potential mate? i can tell you even a white guy or an asian guy would have a difficult time dealing with that. for indian men who think they are something too special this sort of thing is culturally unacceptable and a shame. you have to re-familiarize yourself with indian culture, max, especially indian men. talk to me, i know them pretty well.

**if the incidence of rape is so high in india, then the only way to curb it in that nosiy, crowded country is to mete a fair punishment. death is too harsh, as is castration, but removing just one testicle (it's a democracy, they can pick which one) leaving behind the other may just be what the indian rapist needs. and if there is any worry about having punished the wrong man, it is not irrversible like death. one can even just remove it and embed it in somewhere in the pelvis with the vascular supply still intact or freeze it in a fridge somewhere if they like, their choice.

by pravalika nanda Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:39 am

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
pravalika nanda wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i'm glad i watched to the end and had the singular pleasure of hearing the woman at the end barking up the wrong tree -- end online porn and reintroduce moral science classes. lovely. yes the boy who is surreptitiously jacking off to porn is always going to become a rapist.

** i don't think men who watch porn are capable of respecting women or treating them as equals; it changes the way they see women. porn is not something benign like too much cartoons or 90210 that we accept it as a part of daily life or as a leisure activity. if you want men to be normal, civilized and useful, you have to ban porn; it's revolting.

Haha. Ok, ma'am. You know better.

PS: What abt women who watch porn?

** people of all genders and age groups should avoid it. i think overall it is detrimental to society. people are meant to be social creatures, they need to interact with one another, learn to build stable, positive relationships and this improves their social and cognitive abilities and allows them to have a more pleasurable life. i'm not being a prude.

by Guest Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:45 am

pravalika nanda wrote:** people of all genders and age groups should avoid it. i think overall it is detrimental to society. people are meant to be social creatures, they need to interact with one another, learn to build stable, positive relationships and this improves their social and cognitive abilities and allows them to have a more pleasurable life. i'm not being a prude.

you sound like someone who would gladly inflict crime on men. you have turned quite scary pravu (or perhaps you were always like this). kuch leti kyun nahin?

by pravalika nanda Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:51 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
pravalika nanda wrote:** people of all genders and age groups should avoid it. i think overall it is detrimental to society. people are meant to be social creatures, they need to interact with one another, learn to build stable, positive relationships and this improves their social and cognitive abilities and allows them to have a more pleasurable life. i'm not being a prude.
you sound like someone who would gladly inflict crime on men. you have turned quite scary pravu (or perhaps you were always like this). kuch leti kyun nahin?

**huh? actually, it's the other way around. i don't think we should lose our innocence. alright, i have to sleep.

by Guest Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:57 am

pravalika nanda wrote:**huh? actually, it's the other way around. i don't think we should lose our innocence. alright, i have to sleep.

good night. but remember, watching porn and wanting to rape is a bad causal connection. it is like saying donkeys are not safe in pakistan (donkey-sex is the #1 searched item -- on the net -- in pakistan). more importantly, porn has many hues. a vast majority of men do not enjoy sodomy, rape, or pedophilia in porn.

by Merlot Daruwala Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:28 am

pravalika nanda wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:you sound like someone who would gladly inflict crime on men. you have turned quite scary pravu (or perhaps you were always like this). kuch leti kyun nahin?

**huh? actually, it's the other way around. i don't think we should lose our innocence. alright, i have to sleep.

Innocence? Very little of it was on evidence in the sheer relish with which you visualized removing some rapist's testicle and refrigerating it.

On a different note, this is what happens to people who preserve their innocence a bit too long:
The Hindu's fight against rape Crazycatlady

The Hindu's fight against rape Crazycatlady

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:34 am

supraiya rao and prav nanda - soul sisters of the sorority of de-testicling.

by confuzzled dude Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:42 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:supraiya rao and prav nanda - soul sisters of the sorority of de-testicling.

and then there is Lorena Bobbitt rule.

by southindian Sun Dec 30, 2012 2:41 pm

pravalika nanda wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i'm glad i watched to the end and had the singular pleasure of hearing the woman at the end barking up the wrong tree -- end online porn and reintroduce moral science classes. lovely. yes the boy who is surreptitiously jacking off to porn is always going to become a rapist.

** i don't think men who watch porn are capable of respecting women or treating them as equals; it changes the way they see women. porn is not something benign like too much cartoons or 90210 that we accept it as a part of daily life or as a leisure activity. if you want men to be normal, civilized and useful, you have to ban porn; it's revolting.

PN, this is not true.

99% of men on SuCh would fall in the watching porn category and I'm sure they are not Bittus.

Most of the 99% would respect women in social, non-social and even in one on one get-togethers.

by pravalika nanda Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:08 pm

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
pravalika nanda wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:you sound like someone who would gladly inflict crime on men. you have turned quite scary pravu (or perhaps you were always like this). kuch leti kyun nahin?

**huh? actually, it's the other way around. i don't think we should lose our innocence. alright, i have to sleep.

Innocence? Very little of it was on evidence in the sheer relish with which you visualized removing some rapist's testicle and refrigerating it.

On a different note, this is what happens to people who preserve their innocence a bit too long:

** Ha ha, it was tongue-in-cheek. anyway, it's hilarious. you guys in india are screwed. as it is 95% of indian men cannot be trained to say, "hey girl, wassup?" and start a conversation. now they have a real legal reason to quake and shake before they even try it amidst that self-righteous, blood-thirsty crowd.

** i was reading an article in the guardian. they say women get raped in india when they go to the bathroom in the open woods under the twinkling night sky, so how about all you rich, educated folk invest in better sanitation in india? or get the great widow to?

** let me know when you come up with a better idea of how one should curb rape in india. in the west, rapists are usually mentally ill, have personality disorders, or are criminals. not so in india where rape is the weapon of choice to maim and suppress a woman or a family so they live in shame and fear. it's easier and more and effective to rape someone in india than to murder them and take care of the corpse. the culprits when correctly identified should be punished. and the punishment shoudl be harsh in order to deter men from raping women, how else can you cut down on the rates of rape?

** and i see you've been praising the cops for a nice quick job, but you did not ask if they really caught the right men. i doubt they did.

by pravalika nanda Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:15 pm

southindian wrote:
pravalika nanda wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i'm glad i watched to the end and had the singular pleasure of hearing the woman at the end barking up the wrong tree -- end online porn and reintroduce moral science classes. lovely. yes the boy who is surreptitiously jacking off to porn is always going to become a rapist.

** i don't think men who watch porn are capable of respecting women or treating them as equals; it changes the way they see women. porn is not something benign like too much cartoons or 90210 that we accept it as a part of daily life or as a leisure activity. if you want men to be normal, civilized and useful, you have to ban porn; it's revolting.

PN, this is not true.

99% of men on SuCh would fall in the watching porn category and I'm sure they are not Bittus.

Most of the 99% would respect women in social, non-social and even in one on one get-togethers.

** in what ways do you show women respect and treat them as your equal?

by pravalika nanda Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:21 pm

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
pravalika nanda wrote:**huh? actually, it's the other way around. i don't think we should lose our innocence. alright, i have to sleep.
good night. but remember, watching porn and wanting to rape is a bad causal connection. it is like saying donkeys are not safe in pakistan (donkey-sex is the #1 searched item -- on the net -- in pakistan). more importantly, porn has many hues. a vast majority of men do not enjoy sodomy, rape, or pedophilia in porn.

** how come men rape women all the time but it rarely is the other way around?

by Hellsangel Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:22 pm

pravalika nanda wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
pravalika nanda wrote:**huh? actually, it's the other way around. i don't think we should lose our innocence. alright, i have to sleep.
good night. but remember, watching porn and wanting to rape is a bad causal connection. it is like saying donkeys are not safe in pakistan (donkey-sex is the #1 searched item -- on the net -- in pakistan). more importantly, porn has many hues. a vast majority of men do not enjoy sodomy, rape, or pedophilia in porn.

** how come men rape women all the time but it rarely is the other way around?

Quite a stupid question coming from someone who is a nurse.

by pravalika nanda Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:28 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
pravalika nanda wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
pravalika nanda wrote:**huh? actually, it's the other way around. i don't think we should lose our innocence. alright, i have to sleep.
good night. but remember, watching porn and wanting to rape is a bad causal connection. it is like saying donkeys are not safe in pakistan (donkey-sex is the #1 searched item -- on the net -- in pakistan). more importantly, porn has many hues. a vast majority of men do not enjoy sodomy, rape, or pedophilia in porn.

** how come men rape women all the time but it rarely is the other way around?
Quite a stupid question coming from someone who is a nurse.

** if you bother me again i'm calling the delhi cops on you cuz i hear they're damn good at what they do.

by Hellsangel Sun Dec 30, 2012 7:31 pm

pravalika nanda wrote:

** if you bother me again i'm calling the delhi cops on you cuz i hear they're damn good at what they do.

by bharathnari Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:00 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
pravalika nanda wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
pravalika nanda wrote:**huh? actually, it's the other way around. i don't think we should lose our innocence. alright, i have to sleep.
good night. but remember, watching porn and wanting to rape is a bad causal connection. it is like saying donkeys are not safe in pakistan (donkey-sex is the #1 searched item -- on the net -- in pakistan). more importantly, porn has many hues. a vast majority of men do not enjoy sodomy, rape, or pedophilia in porn.

** how come men rape women all the time but it rarely is the other way around?
Quite a stupid question coming from someone who is a nurse.

Learn to respect women first.

by Hellsangel Sun Dec 30, 2012 8:02 pm

bharathnari wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
pravalika nanda wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
pravalika nanda wrote:**huh? actually, it's the other way around. i don't think we should lose our innocence. alright, i have to sleep.
good night. but remember, watching porn and wanting to rape is a bad causal connection. it is like saying donkeys are not safe in pakistan (donkey-sex is the #1 searched item -- on the net -- in pakistan). more importantly, porn has many hues. a vast majority of men do not enjoy sodomy, rape, or pedophilia in porn.

** how come men rape women all the time but it rarely is the other way around?
Quite a stupid question coming from someone who is a nurse.

Learn to respect women first.

Dear Fragile Ego,
Stupidity in women is not any more privileged than stupidity in men.

by Guest Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:07 am

pravalika nanda wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
pravalika nanda wrote:
** how come men rape women all the time but it rarely is the other way around?
Quite a stupid question coming from someone who is a nurse.

** if you bother me again i'm calling the delhi cops on you cuz i hear they're damn good at what they do.

LOL!

good to hear you were being tongue in cheek earlier. be careful. men -- be careful of pravu.

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