Re: Shashi Tharoor: Celebrating India's linguistic diversity

by goodcitizn Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:32 am

artood2 wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:english is the language of the world. you cannot deny that privileging any indian language over the others has an inherent political risk. in that sense english is neutral. therefore, i have no problem at all having speeches in english and translations provided in regional languages like marathi, bengali, kannada, and hindi.

alternatively the speech can be given in the politician's native language and translated into regional languages.

You it is the langugage of the world, its a minor inconvenience that the masses do not understand it. As I understand all political rallies are being conducted in English. Yeah that speech by owaisi was also in English.

None of the political rallies in south india are in Hindi. Even after 46 years of force-feeding Hindi through publicly funded prachar sabhas, most south indians do not need or understand Hindi. The link language is an excuse for the Hindi-speakers not to learn a south indian language even if their employment places them there. The onus is on the south indians to learn Hindi to communicate with them, not vice versa. Bottom line, learning another language is a personal choice, be it English, Hindi or German.

Any democratic government that calls itself secular in treating all religions as equal must not make an exception to any one language on the basis of majority since any person who is born into a family practicing a religion is also born into that family's language. Even with the imposition of Hindi through prachar sabhas, central government job requirements etc over the last four decades, Hindi is spoken by less than 40% of Indians at best. Besides, Hindi is not a national language, sharing an official status with English. And to sell the idea that a common man in south india is more adept at learning Hindi over English is poppycock. In fact, in today's world, a common man is better off learning English.

by confuzzled dude Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:40 am

[quote="Jeremiah Mburuburu"]

artood2 wrote:thank you. however, what was checked was ignorance - of southern india and southern indian languages - not spelling.

more likely, influence of native tongue than ignorance.

by artood2 Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:41 am

Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:
artood2 wrote:
Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:
artood2 wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
it is time for a language based reservation policy so that the disadvantaged non-hindian minority can be protected from hindian language persecution.

I agree. This will allow all those punjabi, bengali, tamil, malyalam, marathi speaking folks to occupy posts like PM, Prez, finance, defence etc etc...
the name of the language is "malayalam," not "malyalam." it's not "malyal" either.

oh welcome the human spell checker, I misheed your shervices.
thank you. however, what was checked was ignorance - of southern india and southern indian languages - not spelling.

Ahh the mind reader...

by artood2 Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:49 am

goodcitizn wrote:
artood2 wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:english is the language of the world. you cannot deny that privileging any indian language over the others has an inherent political risk. in that sense english is neutral. therefore, i have no problem at all having speeches in english and translations provided in regional languages like marathi, bengali, kannada, and hindi.

alternatively the speech can be given in the politician's native language and translated into regional languages.

You it is the langugage of the world, its a minor inconvenience that the masses do not understand it. As I understand all political rallies are being conducted in English. Yeah that speech by owaisi was also in English.

None of the political rallies in south india are in Hindi. Even after 46 years of force-feeding Hindi through publicly funded prachar sabhas, most south indians do not need or understand Hindi. The link language is an excuse for the Hindi-speakers not to learn a south indian language even if their employment places them there. The onus is on the south indians to learn Hindi to communicate with them, not vice versa. Bottom line, learning another language is a personal choice, be it English, Hindi or German.

Any democratic government that calls itself secular in treating all religions as equal must not make an exception to any one language on the basis of majority since any person who is born into a family practicing a religion is also born into that family's language. Even with the imposition of Hindi through prachar sabhas, central government job requirements etc over the last four decades, Hindi is spoken by less than 40% of Indians at best. Besides, Hindi is not a national language, sharing an official status with English. And to sell the idea that a common man in south india is more adept at learning Hindi over English is poppycock. In fact, in today's world, a common man is better off learning English.

Point is simple: you talk in a language which most of your audience can understand.

P.S.: do not club all southern indians in one bucket. The coorgi, the tulus, the konkanis, the dakhinis (??) cannot all talk to each other.

by confuzzled dude Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:00 am

artood2 wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:
artood2 wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:english is the language of the world. you cannot deny that privileging any indian language over the others has an inherent political risk. in that sense english is neutral. therefore, i have no problem at all having speeches in english and translations provided in regional languages like marathi, bengali, kannada, and hindi.

alternatively the speech can be given in the politician's native language and translated into regional languages.

You it is the langugage of the world, its a minor inconvenience that the masses do not understand it. As I understand all political rallies are being conducted in English. Yeah that speech by owaisi was also in English.

None of the political rallies in south india are in Hindi. Even after 46 years of force-feeding Hindi through publicly funded prachar sabhas, most south indians do not need or understand Hindi. The link language is an excuse for the Hindi-speakers not to learn a south indian language even if their employment places them there. The onus is on the south indians to learn Hindi to communicate with them, not vice versa. Bottom line, learning another language is a personal choice, be it English, Hindi or German.

Any democratic government that calls itself secular in treating all religions as equal must not make an exception to any one language on the basis of majority since any person who is born into a family practicing a religion is also born into that family's language. Even with the imposition of Hindi through prachar sabhas, central government job requirements etc over the last four decades, Hindi is spoken by less than 40% of Indians at best. Besides, Hindi is not a national language, sharing an official status with English. And to sell the idea that a common man in south india is more adept at learning Hindi over English is poppycock. In fact, in today's world, a common man is better off learning English.

Point is simple: you talk in a language which most of your audience can understand.

P.S.: do not club all southern indians in one bucket. The coorgi, the tulus, the konkanis, the dakhinis (??) cannot all talk to each other.

but they all speak Kannada, don't they Razz

by confuzzled dude Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:10 am

goodcitizn wrote:And to sell the idea that a common man in south india is more adept at learning Hindi over English is poppycock. In fact, in today's world, a common man is better off learning English.

Isn't this sooo '60s talk. I'm not sure anyone cares (including Central Govt.) much about imposing Hindi, anymore.

by Guest Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:14 am

artood2 wrote:P.S.: do not club all southern indians in one bucket. The coorgi, the tulus, the konkanis, the dakhinis (??) cannot all talk to each other.

correct. whereas the hindians (gujjus, punjabis, bongs, marathis and even the dakhinis) can communicate with each other in kam chalau hindi. Smile

*yeah, rub it in*

by goodcitizn Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:03 pm

artood2 wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:
artood2 wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:english is the language of the world. you cannot deny that privileging any indian language over the others has an inherent political risk. in that sense english is neutral. therefore, i have no problem at all having speeches in english and translations provided in regional languages like marathi, bengali, kannada, and hindi.

alternatively the speech can be given in the politician's native language and translated into regional languages.

You it is the langugage of the world, its a minor inconvenience that the masses do not understand it. As I understand all political rallies are being conducted in English. Yeah that speech by owaisi was also in English.

None of the political rallies in south india are in Hindi. Even after 46 years of force-feeding Hindi through publicly funded prachar sabhas, most south indians do not need or understand Hindi. The link language is an excuse for the Hindi-speakers not to learn a south indian language even if their employment places them there. The onus is on the south indians to learn Hindi to communicate with them, not vice versa. Bottom line, learning another language is a personal choice, be it English, Hindi or German.

Any democratic government that calls itself secular in treating all religions as equal must not make an exception to any one language on the basis of majority since any person who is born into a family practicing a religion is also born into that family's language. Even with the imposition of Hindi through prachar sabhas, central government job requirements etc over the last four decades, Hindi is spoken by less than 40% of Indians at best. Besides, Hindi is not a national language, sharing an official status with English. And to sell the idea that a common man in south india is more adept at learning Hindi over English is poppycock. In fact, in today's world, a common man is better off learning English.

Point is simple: you talk in a language which most of your audience can understand.

P.S.: do not club all southern indians in one bucket. The coorgi, the tulus, the konkanis, the dakhinis (??) cannot all talk to each other.

The point is not simple. Mr.Gowda was reading out Hindi written in Kannada. He should have spoken in Kannada or English, the two languages he understood. It makes no sense to give a speech in a language that the speaker himself doesn't understand.

I'd bet the odds are the coorgis, the tulus and the konkanis would understand each other if they communicated in Kannada, the regional language, than in Hindi.

by Guest Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:36 pm

goodcitizn wrote:The point is not simple. Mr.Gowda was reading out Hindi written in Kannada. He should have spoken in Kannada or English, the two languages he understood. It makes no sense to give a speech in a language that the speaker himself doesn't understand.

I'd bet the odds are the coorgis, the tulus and the konkanis would understand each other if they communicated in Kannada, the regional language, than in Hindi.

GC, the point is simple. if half (or more) of the nation understand hindi then why not deliver the address in hindi?

by Idéfix Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:44 pm

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:The point is not simple. Mr.Gowda was reading out Hindi written in Kannada. He should have spoken in Kannada or English, the two languages he understood. It makes no sense to give a speech in a language that the speaker himself doesn't understand.

I'd bet the odds are the coorgis, the tulus and the konkanis would understand each other if they communicated in Kannada, the regional language, than in Hindi.
GC, the point is simple. if half (or more) of the nation understand hindi then why not deliver the address in hindi?

But the guy who is delivering the address does not know Hindi. What do we do in that case? Force him to say words he does not understand at all on an important occasion? That sounds a bit like Hindu rituals to me!

I don't think R2D2 or you would suggest that ability to speak Hindi should be a qualification for being Prime Minister. So if you are open to a non-Hindi-speaking PM, you should also be open to the PM speaking his/her native language on Independence Day. Better than making the PM read something (s)he doesn't understand!

by Idéfix Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:48 pm

artood2 wrote:The coorgi, the tulus, the konkanis, the dakhinis (??) cannot all talk to each other.

Contrary to SuCH copy-paste wisdom, there are no such people.

by goodcitizn Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:49 pm

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:The point is not simple. Mr.Gowda was reading out Hindi written in Kannada. He should have spoken in Kannada or English, the two languages he understood. It makes no sense to give a speech in a language that the speaker himself doesn't understand.

I'd bet the odds are the coorgis, the tulus and the konkanis would understand each other if they communicated in Kannada, the regional language, than in Hindi.
GC, the point is simple. if half (or more) of the nation understand hindi then why not deliver the address in hindi?

No problem if the speaker was fluent in Hindi. But what is wrong in having the speaker speak in his mother tongue, another Indian language, or English that he is conversant in to address the country and have his speech translated in Hindi?

by Hellsangel Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:56 pm

goodcitizn wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:The point is not simple. Mr.Gowda was reading out Hindi written in Kannada. He should have spoken in Kannada or English, the two languages he understood. It makes no sense to give a speech in a language that the speaker himself doesn't understand.

I'd bet the odds are the coorgis, the tulus and the konkanis would understand each other if they communicated in Kannada, the regional language, than in Hindi.
GC, the point is simple. if half (or more) of the nation understand hindi then why not deliver the address in hindi?

No problem if the speaker was fluent in Hindi. But what is wrong in having the speaker speak in his mother tongue, another Indian language, or English that he is conversant in to address the country and have his speech translated in Hindi?

Maybe Deve Gowda was more comfortable butchering Hindi than butchering English.

by Guest Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:57 pm

goodcitizn wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:The point is not simple. Mr.Gowda was reading out Hindi written in Kannada. He should have spoken in Kannada or English, the two languages he understood. It makes no sense to give a speech in a language that the speaker himself doesn't understand.

I'd bet the odds are the coorgis, the tulus and the konkanis would understand each other if they communicated in Kannada, the regional language, than in Hindi.
GC, the point is simple. if half (or more) of the nation understand hindi then why not deliver the address in hindi?

No problem if the speaker was fluent in Hindi. But what is wrong in having the speaker speak in his mother tongue, another Indian language, or English that he is conversant in to address the country and have his speech translated in Hindi?

when half or more of india understands hindi, would it be prudent pf him to speak in khasi if that were his native language?

by Idéfix Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:59 pm

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:The point is not simple. Mr.Gowda was reading out Hindi written in Kannada. He should have spoken in Kannada or English, the two languages he understood. It makes no sense to give a speech in a language that the speaker himself doesn't understand.

I'd bet the odds are the coorgis, the tulus and the konkanis would understand each other if they communicated in Kannada, the regional language, than in Hindi.
GC, the point is simple. if half (or more) of the nation understand hindi then why not deliver the address in hindi?

No problem if the speaker was fluent in Hindi. But what is wrong in having the speaker speak in his mother tongue, another Indian language, or English that he is conversant in to address the country and have his speech translated in Hindi?
when half or more of india understands hindi, would it be prudent pf him to speak in khasi if that were his native language?

Even if every single person in India other than him understands Hindi, a non-Hindi-speaker cannot speak Hindi. That's a tautology.

by goodcitizn Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:04 pm

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:The point is not simple. Mr.Gowda was reading out Hindi written in Kannada. He should have spoken in Kannada or English, the two languages he understood. It makes no sense to give a speech in a language that the speaker himself doesn't understand.

I'd bet the odds are the coorgis, the tulus and the konkanis would understand each other if they communicated in Kannada, the regional language, than in Hindi.
GC, the point is simple. if half (or more) of the nation understand hindi then why not deliver the address in hindi?

No problem if the speaker was fluent in Hindi. But what is wrong in having the speaker speak in his mother tongue, another Indian language, or English that he is conversant in to address the country and have his speech translated in Hindi?
when half or more of india understands hindi, would it be prudent pf him to speak in khasi if that were his native language?

Yes, and have his speech translated.

by Guest Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:06 pm

panini press wrote:Even if every single person in India other than him understands Hindi, a non-Hindi-speaker cannot speak Hindi. That's a tautology.

??? what does this purported tautology mean?

by Guest Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:11 pm

goodcitizn wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:The point is not simple. Mr.Gowda was reading out Hindi written in Kannada. He should have spoken in Kannada or English, the two languages he understood. It makes no sense to give a speech in a language that the speaker himself doesn't understand.

I'd bet the odds are the coorgis, the tulus and the konkanis would understand each other if they communicated in Kannada, the regional language, than in Hindi.
GC, the point is simple. if half (or more) of the nation understand hindi then why not deliver the address in hindi?

No problem if the speaker was fluent in Hindi. But what is wrong in having the speaker speak in his mother tongue, another Indian language, or English that he is conversant in to address the country and have his speech translated in Hindi?
when half or more of india understands hindi, would it be prudent pf him to speak in khasi if that were his native language?

Yes, and have his speech translated.

then you have to answer how half of india speaking hindi discriminates against you.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:17 pm

above all this is the fact that it is absolutely insulting to deve gowda to make him read out a hindi speech written in kannada script. i was amazed he agreed to do it when i first read about it.

by goodcitizn Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:26 pm

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
GC, the point is simple. if half (or more) of the nation understand hindi then why not deliver the address in hindi?

No problem if the speaker was fluent in Hindi. But what is wrong in having the speaker speak in his mother tongue, another Indian language, or English that he is conversant in to address the country and have his speech translated in Hindi?
when half or more of india understands hindi, would it be prudent pf him to speak in khasi if that were his native language?

Yes, and have his speech translated.
then you have to answer how half of india speaking hindi discriminates against you.

Discrimination is your word, not mine. I am not against Hindi. I am against the imposition of Hindi by the central government.

by Idéfix Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:31 pm

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
panini press wrote:Even if every single person in India other than him understands Hindi, a non-Hindi-speaker cannot speak Hindi. That's a tautology.
??? what does this purported tautology mean?

If someone cannot speak Hindi, his inability to speak Hindi remains whether Hindi is understood by 0.4%, 4%, or 40% of India's population. If such a person is the PM, he simply cannot make the speech in Hindi, because he cannot speak the language.

by Idéfix Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:39 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:above all this is the fact that it is absolutely insulting to deve gowda to make him read out a hindi speech written in kannada script. i was amazed he agreed to do it when i first read about it.

He should have resigned rather than go through the motions with that one.

by bw Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:29 pm

shashi tharoor wrote this article in aug 2008 and deve gowda spoke in hindi on 15 aug 1996.

this is feb 2013.

that's all.

by Guest Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:59 pm

panini press wrote:
artood2 wrote:The coorgi, the tulus, the konkanis, the dakhinis (??) cannot all talk to each other.
Contrary to SuCH copy-paste wisdom, there are no such people.

google for 'dakhini muslims in kerala'.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:20 pm

rashmun you are one to talk! you were mouthing off about all southern indian muslims until i got in your face and showed you that there is very much an indigenous non-urdu strain of islam in TN and kerala. you then snuck off with your tail between your legs whimpering something about not being familiar with it. shameless!

by Guest Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:22 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:rashmun you are one to talk! you were mouthing off about all southern indian muslims until i got in your face and showed you that there is very much an indigenous non-urdu strain of islam in TN and kerala. you then snuck off with your tail between your legs whimpering something about not being familiar with it. shameless!

do you agree about the existence of dakhini muslims in Kerala? Furthermore, do you agree that some variant of Dakhini (or dakhini urdu or dakhini hindi) is the first language of all muslims in Karnataka, Andhra Pradesh, and Northern Tamil Nadu?

Your experiences in TN seems to be limited to southern TN. I doubt whether you spend much time in Northern TN.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:56 pm

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:rashmun you are one to talk! you were mouthing off about all southern indian muslims until i got in your face and showed you that there is very much an indigenous non-urdu strain of islam in TN and kerala. you then snuck off with your tail between your legs whimpering something about not being familiar with it. shameless!

do you agree about the existence of dakhini muslims in Kerala? Furthermore, do you agree that some variant of Dakhini (or dakhini urdu or dakhini hindi) is the first language of all muslims in Karnataka, Andhra Pradesh, and Northern Tamil Nadu?

Your experiences in TN seems to be limited to southern TN. I doubt whether you spend much time in Northern TN.

you keep changing the conversation according to your convenience. your initial claim was that urdu (i won't call it dakhini or pluckini or some other fancy name) was the lingua franca of ALL southern indian muslims. i showed you that indigenous muslims of kerala and TN speak malayalam and tamil. now you've shifted the goal post. india is a democracy. people move. i have no doubt that there are muslims whose native tongue is urdu in kerala and TN, just as there are huge pockets of say tambrahms in delhi and bombay. but that wasn't the original discussion as i remember it.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:05 pm

rashmun -- not only did i show you that malayalam and tamil are the native tongues of indigenous muslims of kerala and TN, but also that islamic presence itself is far older in kerala and TN than in northindia. you barely acknowledged that and now you are back with your usual nonsense.

by Kayalvizhi Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:44 pm

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:Hindi's importance is declining as NIs are going to SI for jobs. .

This is where many people reach the wrong conclusion, understandably. One would think thaty since Hindians go to Banhgalore, they will loearn Kannada or to Chennai and learn Tamil in the same way people going to work in Berlin will learn German. That's not the case here. Hindians refuse to learn local languyages and use Hindi arrogantly saying it is Rashtriya Basha. Stores, auto drivers go alonmg with kit. In essence the Hindian migrants spread Hindi like AIDS virus killing local cuilture slowly

by Kayalvizhi Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:15 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:GC, the point is simple. if half (or more) of the nation understand hindi then why not deliver the address in hindi?

Because the speaker (PM) did not know Hindi. He was reading a speech prepared by someone and then written in Kannada script. The PM did not know what he was saying. He could have declared war on China, and before the spoeech ended, Chinese missiles would be landing on New Delhi.

Oh, I am just dreaming. If dreams could be reality ...

by Kris Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:19 am

Kayalvizhi wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:GC, the point is simple. if half (or more) of the nation understand hindi then why not deliver the address in hindi?

Because the speaker (PM) did not know Hindi. He was reading a speech prepared by someone and then written in Kannada script. The PM did not know what he was saying. He could have declared war on China, and before the spoeech ended, Chinese missiles would be landing on New Delhi.

Oh, I am just dreaming. If dreams could be reality ...

>>>>What are you dreaming about?

by Guest Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:36 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:rashmun -- not only did i show you that malayalam and tamil are the native tongues of indigenous muslims of kerala and TN, but also that islamic presence itself is far older in kerala and TN than in northindia. you barely acknowledged that and now you are back with your usual nonsense.

The fact that the most revered saint for South Indian Muslims is a North Indian (Gisu Daraz) who wrote his literary works in Dakhini should make you reflect and contemplate on these matters a little more.

by Guest Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:37 am

panini press wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
panini press wrote:Even if every single person in India other than him understands Hindi, a non-Hindi-speaker cannot speak Hindi. That's a tautology.
??? what does this purported tautology mean?
If someone cannot speak Hindi, his inability to speak Hindi remains whether Hindi is understood by 0.4%, 4%, or 40% of India's population. If such a person is the PM, he simply cannot make the speech in Hindi, because he cannot speak the language.

then how did he make the speech in hindi?

by Kayalvizhi Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:46 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:then how did he make the speech in hindi?

Some one prepared the Hindi speech. Then it was written in Kannada script. PM Gowda read the Kanna script without knowing what he was saying.

by Guest Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:50 am

Kayalvizhi wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:then how did he make the speech in hindi?

Some one prepared the Hindi speech. Then it was written in Kannada script. PM Gowda read the Kanna script without knowing what he was saying.

no. he knew what he was saying. he trusted the person who translated it for him before he gave the speech. don't be ridiculous.

by Captain Bhankas Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:40 am

artood2 wrote:oh welcome the human spell checker, I misheed your shervices.

Shashi Tharoor: Celebrating India's linguistic diversity - Page 2 Frabz-have-no-fear-the-grammar-nazi-is-here-a8d107

by Merlot Daruwala Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:36 am

Kayalvizhi wrote:Hindians refuse to learn local languyages and use Hindi arrogantly saying it is Rashtriya Basha. Stores, auto drivers go alonmg with kit. In essence the Hindian migrants spread Hindi like AIDS virus killing local cuilture slowly

Kayal, if a bunch of yahoos coming in and speaking arrogantly in Hindi is sufficiently to kill off local languages, that speaks very poorly of the sustainability of those languages anyway. Robbed of local government patronage, and exposed to the free market, I doubt if any of them would really survive as literary languages. So why get so emotionally invested in these historical curiosities in the first place?

by Maria S Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:52 am

Imo..when people are so passionate and emotionally invest in some issues..there is high probability that there is a deeply personal side-history connected to it. Often there is a huge "legacy"..their family members/ancestors..close friends..may have invested, worked, sacrificed and even lost their lives for it.

I can understand that:)

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:12 am

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
Kayalvizhi wrote:Hindians refuse to learn local languyages and use Hindi arrogantly saying it is Rashtriya Basha. Stores, auto drivers go alonmg with kit. In essence the Hindian migrants spread Hindi like AIDS virus killing local cuilture slowly

Kayal, if a bunch of yahoos coming in and speaking arrogantly in Hindi is sufficiently to kill off local languages, that speaks very poorly of the sustainability of those languages anyway. Robbed of local government patronage, and exposed to the free market, I doubt if any of them would really survive as literary languages. So why get so emotionally invested in these historical curiosities in the first place?

languages are part of our cultural heritage, of who we are. there is solid evidence that they even affect the way we think. it is but natural for humans to be emotional about language, just like we are attached to our relatives and our childhood memories. it is your view that is very curious and atypical.

have you asked yourself the question of why there are yahoos who want to impose their language in the first place? at least about tamil you are mistaken. there is no government patronage and yet it survives in sri lanka, in malaysia, in singapore, in burma, in the US and canada, and in other far flung places.

by Idéfix Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:52 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
panini press wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
panini press wrote:Even if every single person in India other than him understands Hindi, a non-Hindi-speaker cannot speak Hindi. That's a tautology.
??? what does this purported tautology mean?
If someone cannot speak Hindi, his inability to speak Hindi remains whether Hindi is understood by 0.4%, 4%, or 40% of India's population. If such a person is the PM, he simply cannot make the speech in Hindi, because he cannot speak the language.
then how did he make the speech in hindi?

What Deve Gowda did does not to "making a speech" by any stretch of the imagination. He simply mouthed words he did not understand that someone else had written for him. That is more like someone using Google Translate to find Tamil cuss words and using them against Tamils, than like making an Independence Day speech. At least the person who did the Google Translate work knew what meaning he was going for!

by goodcitizn Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:02 am

panini press wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
panini press wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
panini press wrote:Even if every single person in India other than him understands Hindi, a non-Hindi-speaker cannot speak Hindi. That's a tautology.
??? what does this purported tautology mean?
If someone cannot speak Hindi, his inability to speak Hindi remains whether Hindi is understood by 0.4%, 4%, or 40% of India's population. If such a person is the PM, he simply cannot make the speech in Hindi, because he cannot speak the language.
then how did he make the speech in hindi?
What Deve Gowda did does not to "making a speech" by any stretch of the imagination. He simply mouthed words he did not understand that someone else had written for him. That is more like someone using Google Translate to find Tamil cuss words and using them against Tamils, than like making an Independence Day speech. At least the person who did the Google Translate work knew what meaning he was going for!

Shashi Tharoor: Celebrating India's linguistic diversity - Page 2 459784477

And later apologize for not knowing Tamil fully!

by Guest Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:05 am

panini press wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
panini press wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
panini press wrote:Even if every single person in India other than him understands Hindi, a non-Hindi-speaker cannot speak Hindi. That's a tautology.
??? what does this purported tautology mean?
If someone cannot speak Hindi, his inability to speak Hindi remains whether Hindi is understood by 0.4%, 4%, or 40% of India's population. If such a person is the PM, he simply cannot make the speech in Hindi, because he cannot speak the language.
then how did he make the speech in hindi?
What Deve Gowda did does not to "making a speech" by any stretch of the imagination. He simply mouthed words he did not understand that someone else had written for him. That is more like someone using Google Translate to find Tamil cuss words and using them against Tamils, than like making an Independence Day speech. At least the person who did the Google Translate work knew what meaning he was going for!

assumptions assumptions assumptions. how do you know that he had not insisted on hearing the translation in a language he understood? do you think the PMs of india are generally stupid? why admonish someone for deciding to speak in a language that more than half the nation understands even if it not his native tongue? he exercised a "choice." it makes political sense as well as common sense. if you do not like it done, then YOU don't do it when you are PM -- the constitution does not prohibit you from addressing the nation in telugu. admonishing him by suggesting that he should have resigned instead is loony behaviour.

by Idéfix Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:25 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:assumptions assumptions assumptions. how do you know that he had not insisted on hearing the translation in a language he understood?

If he did, that is no better than asking a Tamil colleague for Tamil cuss words and posting them here without understanding a word of the language!

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:do you think the PMs of india are generally stupid?

No, I think it is stupid of anyone to mouth words in a language they do not understand, particularly on important occasions like Independence Day.

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:if you do not like it done, then YOU don't do it when you are PM -- the constitution does not prohibit you from addressing the nation in telugu. admonishing him by suggesting that he should have resigned instead is loony behaviour.

The constitution does not prohibit me from suggesting that he ought to have resigned either.

by Merlot Daruwala Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:31 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Merlot Daruwala wrote:
Kayalvizhi wrote:Hindians refuse to learn local languyages and use Hindi arrogantly saying it is Rashtriya Basha. Stores, auto drivers go alonmg with kit. In essence the Hindian migrants spread Hindi like AIDS virus killing local cuilture slowly

Kayal, if a bunch of yahoos coming in and speaking arrogantly in Hindi is sufficiently to kill off local languages, that speaks very poorly of the sustainability of those languages anyway. Robbed of local government patronage, and exposed to the free market, I doubt if any of them would really survive as literary languages. So why get so emotionally invested in these historical curiosities in the first place?

languages are part of our cultural heritage, of who we are. there is solid evidence that they even affect the way we think. it is but natural for humans to be emotional about language, just like we are attached to our relatives and our childhood memories. it is your view that is very curious and atypical.

It is just the strength of feelings for a language, which is after all a mere medium for communicating one's ideas, which surprises me. Specific to you, I don't see a similar passion for your religion or castu or sub-castu, which are even more exclusive attributes of the cultural heritage which defines who you are. So why just this one element of your identity?

PS: Pls note, I'm not decrying or looking down on this. I'm just curious.

by Guest Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:51 am

panini press wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:assumptions assumptions assumptions. how do you know that he had not insisted on hearing the translation in a language he understood?
If he did, that is no better than asking a Tamil colleague for Tamil cuss words and posting them here without understanding a word of the language!

silly comparison. i will just go on in your refrain and say that sonia gandhi, who only haltingly speaks/understands hindi, is stupid for she reads out from prepared text speeches that she hardly understands. and that obama is stupid for he lectures NRIs on the importance of diwali without checking out the veracity of the contents of his text speech.

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:do you think the PMs of india are generally stupid?
No, I think it is stupid of anyone to mouth words in a language they do not understand, particularly on important occasions like Independence Day.

sonia gandhi is stupider for she took the trouble of learning hindi. she should give independence speeches in italian were she to hold a constiitutional office. deve gowda fooled the nation by pretending he understands hindi -- he is a wee smarter than sonia gandhi.

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:if you do not like it done, then YOU don't do it when you are PM -- the constitution does not prohibit you from addressing the nation in telugu. admonishing him by suggesting that he should have resigned instead is loony behaviour.
The constitution does not prohibit me from suggesting that he ought to have resigned either.

you are absolutely right. the constitution does not prohibit you from acting loony.

by Idéfix Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:55 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
panini press wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:assumptions assumptions assumptions. how do you know that he had not insisted on hearing the translation in a language he understood?
If he did, that is no better than asking a Tamil colleague for Tamil cuss words and posting them here without understanding a word of the language!
silly comparison. i will just go on in your refrain and say that sonia gandhi, who only haltingly speaks/understands hindi, is stupid for she reads out from prepared text speeches that she hardly understands. and that obama is stupid for he lectures NRIs on the importance of diwali without checking out the veracity of the contents of his text speech.

Sonia Gandhi speaks -- haltingly or not -- a language that she has learned. Deve Gowda read out words he did not understand. The former -- learning the largest spoken language of the country -- is good politics. The latter is stupid and duplicitous. If you consider this thinking loony, so be it.

by Guest Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:57 am

panini press wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
panini press wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:assumptions assumptions assumptions. how do you know that he had not insisted on hearing the translation in a language he understood?
If he did, that is no better than asking a Tamil colleague for Tamil cuss words and posting them here without understanding a word of the language!
silly comparison. i will just go on in your refrain and say that sonia gandhi, who only haltingly speaks/understands hindi, is stupid for she reads out from prepared text speeches that she hardly understands. and that obama is stupid for he lectures NRIs on the importance of diwali without checking out the veracity of the contents of his text speech.
Sonia Gandhi speaks -- haltingly or not -- a language that she has learned. Deve Gowda read out words he did not understand. The former -- learning the largest spoken language of the country -- is good politics. The latter is stupid and duplicitous. If you consider this thinking loony, so be it.

Sonia's Hindi speeches are typed for her in English. Are you sure Deve Gowda knew no Hindi at the time he gave his speech?

by Idéfix Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:01 am

panini press wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
panini press wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:assumptions assumptions assumptions. how do you know that he had not insisted on hearing the translation in a language he understood?
If he did, that is no better than asking a Tamil colleague for Tamil cuss words and posting them here without understanding a word of the language!
silly comparison. i will just go on in your refrain and say that sonia gandhi, who only haltingly speaks/understands hindi, is stupid for she reads out from prepared text speeches that she hardly understands. and that obama is stupid for he lectures NRIs on the importance of diwali without checking out the veracity of the contents of his text speech.
Sonia Gandhi speaks -- haltingly or not -- a language that she has learned. Deve Gowda read out words he did not understand. The former -- learning the largest spoken language of the country -- is good politics. The latter is stupid and duplicitous. If you consider this thinking loony, so be it.

I don't know why it is so difficult to grasp this... a "speech" is one person communicating what (s)he thinks to a large audience. One cannot communicate one's own thoughts in a language one doesn't understand. Mouthing words one doesn't understand doesn't make for "delivering a speech." There is a good reason interpreters are used when a person who doesn't know the language of the audience wants to address the audience. It is for authenticity of expression and feeling, which can never be achieved when the speaker doesn't know the language he is mouthing.

by Guest Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:16 am

panini press wrote:I don't know why it is so difficult to grasp this... a "speech" is one person communicating what (s)he thinks to a large audience. One cannot communicate one's own thoughts in a language one doesn't understand. Mouthing words one doesn't understand doesn't make for "delivering a speech." There is a good reason interpreters are used when a person who doesn't know the language of the audience wants to address the audience. It is for authenticity of expression and feeling, which can never be achieved when the speaker doesn't know the language he is mouthing.

it is impossible to grasp this for you are getting into needless semantics. great works of literature are read and enjoyed in translation.

Sonia Gandhi speaks -- haltingly or not -- a language that she has learned. Deve Gowda read out words he did not understand. The former -- learning the largest spoken language of the country -- is good politics. The latter is stupid and duplicitous. If you consider this thinking loony, so be it.

again you are assuming that sonia understood hindi, at all, when she gave her very first speech in hindi. blame her for duplicity, fraud, IPC sections 420, 120A and 120B. loony.

by Idéfix Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:21 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:great works of literature are read and enjoyed in translation.

Exactly, translation is the right approach. Someone who doesn't know English cannot enjoy the great works of English literature by reading the English text written out in Telugu script; (s)he needs a Telugu translation of those works instead.

I find it loony that the PM reads out words he does not understand in an Independence Day speech.

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