'Why Critics don't have statues'

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:35 pm

doesn't work that way in science. scientists critique each other all the time. the normal process of peer review and publishing one's work IS through peer review. that's how understanding gets refined-- by critiquing others' work and getting one's own work critiqued.

by bw Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:01 am

who is abe maxwell?

by smArtha Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:33 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:doesn't work that way in science. scientists critique each other all the time. the normal process of peer review and publishing one's work IS through peer review. that's how understanding gets refined-- by critiquing others' work and getting one's own work critiqued.

The Peer Review Cartel

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:44 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:doesn't work that way in science. scientists critique each other all the time. the normal process of peer review and publishing one's work IS through peer review. that's how understanding gets refined-- by critiquing others' work and getting one's own work critiqued.

In theory. In practice, publishing articles in high impact journals, getting grants from national level agencies (NIH, NSF, etc.) and being invited to important conferences involve a lot of "I scratch your back if you scratch mine" and on the "reputation" of the individual. In addition, if you belong to a particular community it is easier to get grants and if you belong to the "wrong" community, it is harder. A variety of factors (that can be twisted) are used (like local infrastructure, ambiance, collaboration, support from administration, etc.) while making decisions (peer review based) on grant applications. Old farts with net-working skills have an advantage over budding young scientists who can be "clueless" on how things get done. Peer review can become peer screw if you don't "belong". I am referring to the US here, not India. Still good work gets published - often, not in the high impact journals. I have seen work from places like New Mexico and by not well-known authors (and not supported by prestigious granting agencies) published in obscure journals (or sometimes as just abstracts at conferences) that become trail-blazing.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:05 am

sandilya -- yes it is imperfect. but the important part of your post if your last sentence. even obscure peer reviewed work becomes trail-blazing through the citation process. so in a sense citations are also part of the peer review process. if the work is unimportant or wrong it gets dumped. nobody looks at it. contrast that to accepting the utterings of a bearded guy with beads uncritically.

by FluteHolder Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:41 pm

contrast that to accepting the utterings of a bearded guy with beads uncritically.
----
This is where IMHO the problems arises, We all tend to look at his attire/beard rather than what he is saying. If he wears suit and quotes something from the west all would look at him with different pair of glasses/eyes. In anycase, these posts have been interesting to see other's reaction/posts. I am neither a member not a follower, but I do find most of his talks which I could understand and relate. Watch his lecture at IITM.

by Hellsangel Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:44 pm

FluteHolder wrote:contrast that to accepting the utterings of a bearded guy with beads uncritically.
----
This is where IMHO the problems arises, We all tend to look at his attire/beard rather than what he is saying. If he wears suit and quotes something from the west all would look at him with different pair of glasses/eyes. In anycase, these posts have been interesting to see other's reaction/posts. I am neither a member not a follower, but I do find most of his talks which I could understand and relate. Watch his lecture at IITM.

Stupidest argument I ever heard. Deepak Chopra wears a suit. He is equally questioned.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:12 pm

smArtha wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:doesn't work that way in science. scientists critique each other all the time. the normal process of peer review and publishing one's work IS through peer review. that's how understanding gets refined-- by critiquing others' work and getting one's own work critiqued.
The Peer Review Cartel

rajiv malhotra's objections are primarily about the social sciences. i'm not saying the natural sciences and engineering are devoid of such you scratch my back and i'll scratch yours disease, but the need for experimental proof, the vetting of theories through proper validation etc. reduce repetition and carryover of incorrect or just plain wrong knowledge. things get culled with the passage of time. this is a healthy process and i was comparing that with the pronouncements of godmen who say they simply "know" because they "know" and we are supposed to swallow whole whatever comes out of their mouths.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:16 pm

FluteHolder wrote:contrast that to accepting the utterings of a bearded guy with beads uncritically.
----
This is where IMHO the problems arises, We all tend to look at his attire/beard rather than what he is saying. If he wears suit and quotes something from the west all would look at him with different pair of glasses/eyes. In anycase, these posts have been interesting to see other's reaction/posts. I am neither a member not a follower, but I do find most of his talks which I could understand and relate. Watch his lecture at IITM.

it has nothing to do with a suit or not being western. we have our own rishi munis too for whom i have tons of respect. folks like brahmagupta, aryabhatta, madhava, jyeshtadeva, and in more recent times ramanujan, c.v.raman, s. chandrasekhar, hargobind khorana, and venky ramakrishnan.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:21 pm

FluteHolder wrote:contrast that to accepting the utterings of a bearded guy with beads uncritically.
----
This is where IMHO the problems arises, We all tend to look at his attire/beard rather than what he is saying. If he wears suit and quotes something from the west all would look at him with different pair of glasses/eyes. In anycase, these posts have been interesting to see other's reaction/posts. I am neither a member not a follower, but I do find most of his talks which I could understand and relate. Watch his lecture at IITM.

looking at drinking water and imparting it with wellbeing or disease! dematerializing yogis! you lock him up in a room and a few days later open the door, and he has vanished! this is beyond schrodinger's cat. this is jaggi's yogi. keep 'em coming... good fun.

by FluteHolder Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:28 pm

You have to ask IITM why they called him for a lecture in the first place, if they are so scientifically inclined?

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:31 pm

FluteHolder wrote:You have to ask IITM why they called him for a lecture in the first place, if they are so scientifically inclined?

all kinds of people come to the IITs to talk. when i was there, the srila prabupada folks, the hare krishna folks used to be there every week. i used to attend their talks for the excellent food. this guy has as much credibility as the herbal petrol dude.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:37 pm

the danger in criticizing godmen is that people, even very dear relatives and friends immediately start thinking that one is a shill for the west! nothing could be further from the truth. i am steeped in hindu culture -- its art, its literature, its mythology, its music and proud of its achievements in mathematics, medicine, and astronomy. it's only very recently that the world has started learning about the great achievements of the kerala school of mathematicians for example. however, everything that comes out of these new age godmen isn't something we should let go unquestioningly. IMO (strictly IMO) they do more harm to society than good.

by truthbetold Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:13 pm

I attended a few godmen / guru type lectures at the behest of other family members. At the end of the lecture I ask "why do we Hindus lack a sense of community?" And "why do we focus on individual salvation rather than societal enlightenment". I have yet to receive a cohesive answer to those questions.

Slowly but surely I am uninvited to such lectures.

by bw Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:31 pm

i am looking at a glass of water with the most loving thoughts. shall report soon if it turns sweeter.

by bw Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:36 pm

it seems that the water is angry with me and is making me dematerialize. now i know how alice felt.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:48 pm

bw wrote:it seems that the water is angry with me and is making me dematerialize. now i know how alice felt.

i turned my rather insipid lawnmower beer into a delightful belgian tripel by imparting it with warm and loving thoughts.

by bw Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:01 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
bw wrote:it seems that the water is angry with me and is making me dematerialize. now i know how alice felt.
i turned my rather insipid lawnmower beer into a delightful belgian tripel by imparting it with warm and loving thoughts.

oh. my glass of water turned into vinegar and my right arm has dematerialized. i need some inner re-engineering pronto.

by bw Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:04 pm

FluteHolder wrote:contrast that to accepting the utterings of a bearded guy with beads uncritically.
----
This is where IMHO the problems arises, We all tend to look at his attire/beard rather than what he is saying. If he wears suit and quotes something from the west all would look at him with different pair of glasses/eyes. In anycase, these posts have been interesting to see other's reaction/posts. I am neither a member not a follower, but I do find most of his talks which I could understand and relate. Watch his lecture at IITM.

fluteholder, do you really believe that he is talking sense, especially in this video? will you have an issue if your children were taught such things at school as part of science?

by Guest Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:26 pm

bw wrote:fluteholder, do you really believe that he is talking sense, especially in this video? will you have an issue if your children were taught such things at school as part of science?

Not a part of science, but when I was in school, my teachers told us at the morning chappel service that Jesus turned water into a best tasting wine, that he fed the whole crowd with just two fish and three pieces of bread, that he brought the dead Lazarus alive, brought sight to blind ppl by applying a paste of mud and his spit on their eyes, cured the lepers with his touch, walked on water, rose from death after three days, etc etc.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:33 pm

kinnera wrote:
bw wrote:fluteholder, do you really believe that he is talking sense, especially in this video? will you have an issue if your children were taught such things at school as part of science?
Not a part of science, but when I was in school, my teachers told us at the morning chappel service that Jesus turned water into a best tasting wine, that he fed the whole crowd with just two fish and three pieces of bread, that he brought the dead Lazarus alive, brought sight to blind ppl by applying a paste of mud and his spit on their eyes, cured the lepers with his touch, walked on water, rose from death after three days, etc etc.

which is also all BS. i view all religious mythology as symbolism including our own religious stories. that's how i was brought up by my believing parents. when our elders told us stories from the ramayana or mahabharata they didn't literally mean that hanuman uprooted the sanjeevani mountain or that draupadi's sari became infinite in length. but this guy is not saying these stories are symbolism. there is no sense of irony in what he says as far as i can tell. he narrates these stories and i am sure means them quite literally! that's what is disturbing to me.

by bw Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:37 pm

kinnera wrote:
bw wrote:fluteholder, do you really believe that he is talking sense, especially in this video? will you have an issue if your children were taught such things at school as part of science?
Not a part of science, but when I was in school, my teachers told us at the morning chappel service that Jesus turned water into a best tasting wine, that he fed the whole crowd with just two fish and three pieces of bread, that he brought the dead Lazarus alive, brought sight to blind ppl by applying a paste of mud and his spit on their eyes, cured the lepers with his touch, walked on water, rose from death after three days, etc etc.

i guess you went to a christian institution and they will talk about the miracles supposedly done by jesus. those are christian myths. i will have an issue if all those are claimed as "science" and someone said that there is overwhelming scientific evidence that such things can be done. this guy is not quoting from hindu mythology but claiming that anyone can do it.

by FluteHolder Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:38 pm

Like I said earlier, I donot believe everything/all videos but I am open to the possibility that MAY be some truth which I am not exposed to or experienced as of now. Neither I believe Nor I mock away that concept as of now.

Let me ask Max a question. Please post one or 2 videos of BN or CM which your like very much which praises Shiva or Ganesha or any deity. I will ask the question after I see your post:)

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:39 pm

and for smArtha who claimed that this guy doesn't do scientific mumbo jumbo mixed in with religion and new age spiritualism, the proof that he does that is right there in this video! watch it.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:42 pm

FluteHolder wrote:Like I said earlier, I donot believe everything/all videos but I am open to the possibility that MAY be some truth which I am not exposed to or experienced as of now. Neither I believe Nor I mock away that concept as of now.

Let me as Max a question. Please post one or 2 videos of BN or CM which your like very much which praises Shiva or Ganesha or any deity. I will ask the question after I see your post:)

let's start by having you answer honestly which part of what he said in the IIT-M video you believe and which you don't.

by bw Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:50 pm

FluteHolder wrote:Like I said earlier, I donot believe everything/all videos but I am open to the possibility that MAY be some truth which I am not exposed to or experienced as of now. Neither I believe Nor I mock away that concept as of now.

Let me ask Max a question. Please post one or 2 videos of BN or CM which your like very much which praises Shiva or Ganesha or any deity. I will ask the question after I see your post:)

i really think these gurus should stick to their yoga routines, good samaritan work, advice on dealing with life issues and so on and stay away from trying to explain the physical world. they come across as charlatans and clowns when they try that. i just don't get this "we don't know it all and so let's be open to anything" attitude that allows these people say the most ridiculous things!

by Guest Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:51 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
kinnera wrote:
bw wrote:fluteholder, do you really believe that he is talking sense, especially in this video? will you have an issue if your children were taught such things at school as part of science?
Not a part of science, but when I was in school, my teachers told us at the morning chappel service that Jesus turned water into a best tasting wine, that he fed the whole crowd with just two fish and three pieces of bread, that he brought the dead Lazarus alive, brought sight to blind ppl by applying a paste of mud and his spit on their eyes, cured the lepers with his touch, walked on water, rose from death after three days, etc etc.
which is also all BS. i view all religious mythology as symbolism including our own religious stories. that's how i was brought up by my believing parents. when our elders told us stories from the ramayana or mahabharata they didn't literally mean that hanuman uprooted the sanjeevani mountain or that draupadi's sari became infinite in length. but this guy is not saying these stories are symbolism. there is no sense of irony in what he says as far as i can tell. he narrates these stories and i am sure means them quite literally! that's what is disturbing to me.

I got what you and bw are saying. Yeah, the guy talks a bunch of baloney. I am not supporting the guy in any way.

by Idéfix Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:13 am

bw wrote:
FluteHolder wrote:Like I said earlier, I donot believe everything/all videos but I am open to the possibility that MAY be some truth which I am not exposed to or experienced as of now. Neither I believe Nor I mock away that concept as of now.

Let me ask Max a question. Please post one or 2 videos of BN or CM which your like very much which praises Shiva or Ganesha or any deity. I will ask the question after I see your post:)
i really think these gurus should stick to their yoga routines, good samaritan work, advice on dealing with life issues and so on and stay away from trying to explain the physical world. they come across as charlatans and clowns when they try that.

+1

bw wrote:i just don't get this "we don't know it all and so let's be open to anything" attitude that allows these people say the most ridiculous things!

I would like all such people to be open to the possibility that the universe wants me to have access to their bank accounts. We don't know for sure that the universe does not want it. So let's be open to that possibility, and send me a private message with your online banking password. I am not saying I will access your account, and I am not saying I won't. If the universe wants it, it will happen.

by Idéfix Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:15 am

Talking about godmen, I highly recommend this documentary on Netflix called Kumare. It was made by a young Indian American guy.

http://kumaremovie.com/

by Sponsored content

'Why Critics don't have statues'

'Why Critics don't have statues'

Re: 'Why Critics don't have statues'

Re: 'Why Critics don't have statues'

Re: 'Why Critics don't have statues'

Re: 'Why Critics don't have statues'

Re: 'Why Critics don't have statues'

Re: 'Why Critics don't have statues'

Re: 'Why Critics don't have statues'

Re: 'Why Critics don't have statues'

Re: 'Why Critics don't have statues'

Re: 'Why Critics don't have statues'

Re: 'Why Critics don't have statues'

Re: 'Why Critics don't have statues'

Re: 'Why Critics don't have statues'

Re: 'Why Critics don't have statues'

Re: 'Why Critics don't have statues'

Re: 'Why Critics don't have statues'

Re: 'Why Critics don't have statues'

Re: 'Why Critics don't have statues'

Re: 'Why Critics don't have statues'

Re: 'Why Critics don't have statues'

Re: 'Why Critics don't have statues'

Re: 'Why Critics don't have statues'

Re: 'Why Critics don't have statues'

Re: 'Why Critics don't have statues'

Re: 'Why Critics don't have statues'

Re: 'Why Critics don't have statues'

Re: 'Why Critics don't have statues'

Re: 'Why Critics don't have statues'

Re: 'Why Critics don't have statues'

Re: 'Why Critics don't have statues'