secularism vs development ; good governance vs corruption

by truthbetold Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:07 pm

Now the 2014 election issues are becoming more sharply defined.
modi claims development plank. He is widely believed to be above board and is expected to provide good governance.
congress claims that modi is a danger to secularism . sonia is openly courting Muslim vote . congress supporters are more and more pushing secular agenda .

opinion polls indicate Indian people reject corrupt upa .
Indian people also indicate preference to development.
but Indian people would also like to preserve Indian culture and religious tolerance. modi has a trust problem on religious tolerance issue.

how would you advice Indian people? give us a brief explanation using relative importance of development , good governance, secularism , competence and.corruption.

by Idéfix Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:27 pm

I don't believe Modi has strong development credentials. I do think Congress has mismanaged the economy in the last few years. Modi has done an excellent job on PR and media management in recasting himself as a development candidate and taking advantage of Congress's poor record.

On corruption, I think the difference between Congress and BJP is marginal. I don't think Modi is personally corrupt, and I don't think MMS is personally corrupt. Congress does have a much more illustrious track record of stealing public funds, but I attribute that to their greater time in government.

On religious tolerance, I simply do not trust Modi. He made his career by exploiting Hindu-Muslim tensions, and consciously promoted well-known criminals just because their crimes were perpetrated on Muslim victims.

by truthbetold Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:40 pm

Idefix
Can i interpret your answer as vote for upa in 2014.
if different, please explain.

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:46 pm

truthbetold wrote:Idefix
Can i interpret your answer as vote for upa in 2014.
if different, please explain.

He will probably celebrate if UPA comes back to power. He will also make fun of you and me for "supporting" communal and dictatorial Modi.

Idefix and I made a small mistake - we gave money to AAP. So, may be, he will vote for the guy who attacked the Nigerian women in Delhi (forgot his name - Somnath?). In my case, I can't vote!

by smArtha Wed Apr 16, 2014 3:08 pm

Idéfix wrote:
On corruption, I think the difference between Congress and BJP is marginal.

Is that true? If we take Yeddy, Gadkari or George Fernandes the scale and magnitude of their scams are small compared to that of the Coal, Spectrum, Common Wealth, Vanpic. The only BJP guy who matches them is Gali Janardhan Reddy and this guy is no longer in BJP now had blessings from the YSR regime too.

by truthbetold Wed Apr 16, 2014 4:18 pm

Smartha and vp
Along with arguments, i am requesting you to present your preference. most of us will not vote anyway either because we are not eligible or physically we may not be able to access the voting facilities.
we had several exchanges on related topics. it is time to make a decision.it comes down to decision and why.
my preference:
upa should be defeated by a huge margin. Nda will be my vehicle.

i will take my chances with modi to give India a chance to bounce back.

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Wed Apr 16, 2014 4:32 pm

truthbetold wrote:Smartha and vp
Along with arguments, i am requesting you to present your preference. most of us will not vote anyway either because we are not eligible or physically we may not be able to access the voting facilities.
we had several exchanges on related topics. it is time to make a decision.it comes down to decision and why.
my preference:
upa should be defeated by a huge margin. Nda will be my vehicle.

i will take my chances with modi to give India a chance to bounce back.

UPA has been destroying India. It will be in the country's (and CON's) interest to have a new govt. I also would like to see Laloo, Mulayam, Jagan, K'nidhi, et al., wiped out of India's political map. They have been misleading the common man to think that it is ok to be corrupt and to undermine the country's cultural heritage. They are the real enemies of India.

by confuzzled dude Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:20 pm

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Smartha and vp
Along with arguments, i am requesting you to present your preference. most of us will not vote anyway either because we are not eligible or physically we may not be able to access the voting facilities.
we had several exchanges on related topics. it is time to make a decision.it comes down to decision and why.
my preference:
upa should be defeated by a huge margin. Nda will be my vehicle.

i will take my chances with modi to give India a chance to bounce back.
UPA has been destroying India. It will be in the country's (and CON's) interest to have a new govt. I also would like to see Laloo, Mulayam, Jagan, K'nidhi, et al., wiped out of India's political map. They have been misleading the common man to think that it is ok to be corrupt and to undermine the country's cultural heritage. They are the real enemies of India.

How about this gentleman and his secular views & views on Modi, sir?

by truthbetold Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:24 pm

Vp
I agree with your general sentiment while reserving the right to differ on certain words. The names you mentioned are certainly among the worst of the lot. it is painful to see these kind of leaders get traction using caste, money and subsidies.

I struggle with modi's question. bjp and modi are a risk. but to allow sonia and rahul back to power is like handing the keys of a bank to robbers. this is a crisis that needs to be overcome with available alternative.

whether modi is better than others in development is debatable. but what is proven beyond doubt is that he can govern and he can develop. it is a risk but it has to be taken at this time.

by confuzzled dude Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:46 pm

I will advise Indian voters against voting BJP. Modi will put every Indian's life & future at risk with his dictatorial tendencies, consequences will be dire; for the first time Al-Qaeda will strengthen its presence in India. India will first turn into Iraq and then slowly deteriorate to Afghanistan's standards and this is how it unfolds. Modi with the help of Shivsena will hatch a plan like Godra train burning incident during 2015 Kumbh Mela in Nasik. This will cause massive outburst, tension, communal violence across the nation, he will use this opportunity to gas a few thousands of Indians that belong to minority communities which will grab international attention including Al-Qaeda. Ever desperate Pakistan (with America's backing on humanitarian aid basis) will provide logistical & financial support to the so called rebels (Al-Qaeda) to enter India and fight the evil govt; they will create mayhem with car bombs and what not. Modi will blame Pakistan and will declare war against Pak as well as National Emergency to lock up all the political leaders that are against him. America & its allies will naturally take Pak's side, seizing the chance to teach America a lesson, Putin will come to India's rescue & the war will prolong for years; economy will be severely crippled, unemployment rate will reach to 1970s levels (with multinational companies will be relocating to much safer countries), prices of commodities will sky rocket, rapes.. no I don't even want to bring that up. India will be in dire straits in just 5 years, decades of work towards development entirely in vain.

by Idéfix Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:30 pm

truthbetold wrote:Idefix
Can i interpret your answer as vote for upa in 2014.
if different, please explain.

No. My vote is for AAP.

by rawemotions Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:57 pm

Idéfix wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Idefix
Can i interpret your answer as vote for upa in 2014.
if different, please explain.
No. My vote is for AAP.

Interesting!
Is this a positive vote for AAP for something specific about AAP or best of the lot vote for AAP ?

by Idéfix Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:17 pm

smArtha wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
On corruption, I think the difference between Congress and BJP is marginal.

Is that true? If we take Yeddy, Gadkari or George Fernandes the scale and magnitude of their scams are small compared to that of the Coal, Spectrum, Common Wealth, Vanpic. The only BJP guy who matches them is Gali Janardhan Reddy and this guy is no longer in BJP now had blessings from the YSR regime too.

My hunch is that the scale of the BJP's scams is in proportion to the scale of their influence in government.

I don't have the numbers to back this up. But it will be interesting to test... first come up with the total amount of government expenditures since independence. Then assign them to the major party that had executive control on how those funds were spent, using "who was PM" (or CM in the case of state government expenditures) as the shortcut. Then add up the value of all the known scams of each party, and divide the value of the scams by the value of the funds controlled. It will interesting to see if Congress still trumps everyone else by this measure.

by Idéfix Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:19 pm

rawemotions wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Idefix
Can i interpret your answer as vote for upa in 2014.
if different, please explain.
No. My vote is for AAP.
Interesting!
Is this a positive vote for AAP for something specific about AAP or best of the lot vote for AAP ?

I don't expect AAP to win control of the government. But my vote is for AAP because I think it will be a good influence on the hung parliament / coalition era that we are heading into. I don't think the party can govern India effectively, but I hope it gets a decent number of seats.

by truthbetold Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:26 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:I will advise Indian voters against voting BJP. Modi will put every Indian's life & future at risk with his dictatorial tendencies, consequences will be dire; for the first time Al-Qaeda will strengthen its presence in India. India will first turn into Iraq and then slowly deteriorate to Afghanistan's standards and this is how it unfolds. Modi with the help of Shivsena will hatch a plan like Godra train burning incident during 2015 Kumbh Mela in Nasik. This will cause massive outburst, tension, communal violence across the nation, he will use this opportunity to gas a few thousands of Indians that belong to minority communities which will grab international attention including Al-Qaeda. Ever desperate Pakistan (with America's backing on humanitarian aid basis) will provide logistical & financial support to the so called rebels (Al-Qaeda) to enter India and fight the evil govt; they will create mayhem with car bombs and what not. Modi will blame Pakistan and will declare war against Pak as well as National Emergency to lock up all the political leaders that are against him. America & its allies will naturally take Pak's side, seizing the chance to teach America a lesson, Putin will come to India's rescue & the war will prolong for years; economy will be severely crippled, unemployment rate will reach to 1970s levels (with multinational companies will be relocating to much safer countries), prices of commodities will sky rocket, rapes.. no I don't even want to bring that up. India will be in dire straits in just 5 years, decades of work towards development entirely in vain.

Cd
is your wet dream over?

by truthbetold Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:36 pm

Idefix
Your excuses for Congress are funny. Bjp state govts have been relatively corruption free and more effective.
The question that remains unanswered by secularists is they put all their effort to bring 2002 riots to the forefront to the exclusion of every other issue that is important to the lives of people. Why do they either hide or ignore or diminish or minimize the failures/misdeeds/corruption/incompetence/distortions of democracy of Congress?

by confuzzled dude Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:50 pm

truthbetold wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:I will advise Indian voters against voting BJP. Modi will put every Indian's life & future at risk with his dictatorial tendencies, consequences will be dire; for the first time Al-Qaeda will strengthen its presence in India. India will first turn into Iraq and then slowly deteriorate to Afghanistan's standards and this is how it unfolds. Modi with the help of Shivsena will hatch a plan like Godra train burning incident during 2015 Kumbh Mela in Nasik. This will cause massive outburst, tension, communal violence across the nation, he will use this opportunity to gas a few thousands of Indians that belong to minority communities which will grab international attention including Al-Qaeda. Ever desperate Pakistan (with America's backing on humanitarian aid basis) will provide logistical & financial support to the so called rebels (Al-Qaeda) to enter India and fight the evil govt; they will create mayhem with car bombs and what not. Modi will blame Pakistan and will declare war against Pak as well as National Emergency to lock up all the political leaders that are against him. America & its allies will naturally take Pak's side, seizing the chance to teach America a lesson, Putin will come to India's rescue & the war will prolong for years; economy will be severely crippled, unemployment rate will reach to 1970s levels (with multinational companies will be relocating to much safer countries), prices of commodities will sky rocket, rapes.. no I don't even want to bring that up. India will be in dire straits in just 5 years, decades of work towards development entirely in vain.

Cd
is your wet dream over?

Is it any worse than Chaddi's fantasizing round the clock about India becoming Muslim majority country in 20 years?! My points are valid & have precedence in both Modi's case & Kargil war.

by confuzzled dude Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:55 pm

truthbetold wrote:Idefix
Your excuses for Congress are funny. Bjp state govts have been relatively corruption free and more effective.
The question that remains unanswered by secularists is they put all their effort to bring 2002 riots to the forefront to the exclusion of every other issue that is important to the lives of people. Why do they either hide or ignore or diminish or minimize the failures/misdeeds/corruption/incompetence/distortions of democracy of Congress?

Do you have any facts to support your claims or you are going to parrot it like you would in case of CBN tongue

by Kris Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:09 am

truthbetold wrote:Now the 2014 election issues are becoming more sharply defined.
modi claims development plank. He is widely believed to be above board and is expected to provide good governance.
congress claims that modi is a danger to secularism . sonia is openly courting Muslim vote . congress supporters are more and more pushing secular agenda .

opinion polls indicate Indian people reject corrupt upa .
Indian people also indicate preference to development.
but Indian people would also like to preserve Indian culture and religious tolerance. modi has a trust problem on religious tolerance issue.

how would you advice Indian people? give us a brief explanation using relative importance of development , good governance, secularism , competence and.corruption.

>>>Modi- Congress has had enough time and it has screwed up and there is no new vision. Modi has run a state and from all accounts, he has not done a shabby job of it. If he doesn't perform, boot him out. This secular/religious tolerance issue is secondary, since even assuming the worst of him ( nothing proven, by the way), India is not a banana republic. It has an active press and a robust opposition that will act as a check.

by confuzzled dude Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:20 am

Kris wrote:>>>Modi- Congress has had enough time and it has screwed up and there is no new vision. Modi has run a state and from all accounts, he has not done a shabby job of it. If he doesn't perform, boot him out. This secular/religious tolerance issue is secondary, since even assuming the worst of him ( nothing proven, by the way), India is not a banana republic. It has an active press and a robust opposition that will act as a check.

Well, Iran was progressive in the '60 & '70s, women were banned from wearing veil as early as in the '30s. Look what happened when a religious fanatic supported by the west took over.

Also, I would like to ask whether or not these ultra progressive Hindu Suchers that are singing development-kumbaya day & night would support, a Muslim candidate with similar credentials as Modi but with Islamic bent was contesting and projected as PM of India, with the same fervor.

by Propagandhi711 Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:40 am

Idéfix wrote:
smArtha wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
On corruption, I think the difference between Congress and BJP is marginal.

Is that true? If we take Yeddy, Gadkari or George Fernandes the scale and magnitude of their scams are small compared to that of the Coal, Spectrum, Common Wealth, Vanpic. The only BJP guy who matches them is Gali Janardhan Reddy and this guy is no longer in BJP now had blessings from the YSR regime too.
My hunch is that the scale of the BJP's scams is in proportion to the scale of their influence in government.

I don't have the numbers to back this up. But it will be interesting to test... first come up with the total amount of government expenditures since independence. Then assign them to the major party that had executive control on how those funds were spent, using "who was PM" (or CM in the case of state government expenditures) as the shortcut. Then add up the value of all the known scams of each party, and divide the value of the scams by the value of the funds controlled. It will interesting to see if Congress still trumps everyone else by this measure.

great methodology from the it's raining coz I tell you so school of thought. let us do the same with murders. let us select quakers and muslims & do an analysis of who has more committed per capita murders by taking into account the relative population sizes and questionable deaths since 600 ad. foolproof method! everyone else that may not agree with our conclusions can be termed fools.

by Propagandhi711 Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:43 am

confuzzled dude wrote:
truthbetold wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:I will advise Indian voters against voting BJP. Modi will put every Indian's life & future at risk with his dictatorial tendencies, consequences will be dire; for the first time Al-Qaeda will strengthen its presence in India. India will first turn into Iraq and then slowly deteriorate to Afghanistan's standards and this is how it unfolds. Modi with the help of Shivsena will hatch a plan like Godra train burning incident during 2015 Kumbh Mela in Nasik. This will cause massive outburst, tension, communal violence across the nation, he will use this opportunity to gas a few thousands of Indians that belong to minority communities which will grab international attention including Al-Qaeda. Ever desperate Pakistan (with America's backing on humanitarian aid basis) will provide logistical & financial support to the so called rebels (Al-Qaeda) to enter India and fight the evil govt; they will create mayhem with car bombs and what not. Modi will blame Pakistan and will declare war against Pak as well as National Emergency to lock up all the political leaders that are against him. America & its allies will naturally take Pak's side, seizing the chance to teach America a lesson, Putin will come to India's rescue & the war will prolong for years; economy will be severely crippled, unemployment rate will reach to 1970s levels (with multinational companies will be relocating to much safer countries), prices of commodities will sky rocket, rapes.. no I don't even want to bring that up. India will be in dire straits in just 5 years, decades of work towards development entirely in vain.

Cd
is your wet dream over?
Is it any worse than Chaddi's fantasizing round the clock about India becoming Muslim majority country in 20 years?! My points are valid & have precedence in both Modi's case & Kargil war.

it's not any worse, it's on par. you on the other hand are on par with extreme chaddis except on the left end of spectrum.

by Idéfix Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:50 am

Propagandhi711 wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
smArtha wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
On corruption, I think the difference between Congress and BJP is marginal.

Is that true? If we take Yeddy, Gadkari or George Fernandes the scale and magnitude of their scams are small compared to that of the Coal, Spectrum, Common Wealth, Vanpic. The only BJP guy who matches them is Gali Janardhan Reddy and this guy is no longer in BJP now had blessings from the YSR regime too.
My hunch is that the scale of the BJP's scams is in proportion to the scale of their influence in government.

I don't have the numbers to back this up. But it will be interesting to test... first come up with the total amount of government expenditures since independence. Then assign them to the major party that had executive control on how those funds were spent, using "who was PM" (or CM in the case of state government expenditures) as the shortcut. Then add up the value of all the known scams of each party, and divide the value of the scams by the value of the funds controlled. It will interesting to see if Congress still trumps everyone else by this measure.

great methodology from the it's raining coz I tell you so school of thought. let us do the same with murders. let us select quakers and muslims & do an analysis of who has more committed per capita murders by taking into account the relative population sizes and questionable deaths since 600 ad. foolproof method! everyone else that may not agree with our conclusions can be termed fools.

If you prefer the "make up your mind first and then look at facts if you absolutely have to" methodology, good for you.

by smArtha Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:34 pm

Idéfix wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
smArtha wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
On corruption, I think the difference between Congress and BJP is marginal.

Is that true? If we take Yeddy, Gadkari or George Fernandes the scale and magnitude of their scams are small compared to that of the Coal, Spectrum, Common Wealth, Vanpic. The only BJP guy who matches them is Gali Janardhan Reddy and this guy is no longer in BJP now had blessings from the YSR regime too.
My hunch is that the scale of the BJP's scams is in proportion to the scale of their influence in government.

I don't have the numbers to back this up. But it will be interesting to test... first come up with the total amount of government expenditures since independence. Then assign them to the major party that had executive control on how those funds were spent, using "who was PM" (or CM in the case of state government expenditures) as the shortcut. Then add up the value of all the known scams of each party, and divide the value of the scams by the value of the funds controlled. It will interesting to see if Congress still trumps everyone else by this measure.

If you prefer the "make up your mind first and then look at facts if you absolutely have to" methodology, good for you.

Hang on. It may be true that you are not doing that in other cases but in this case aren't you resorting to that? Especially, when you claim that the difference in corruption between Congress and BJP is marginal without verifying the facts or numbers as you yourself had indicated?

In any case, besides the obvious number and magnitude of scams, another reason for the perception of high corruption during the Congress, DMK, SP or BSP regimes over that of BJP, TDP, JDU, BJD, ADMK is that during the rule of the former they empower their entire rank and file cadre, bureaucracy, employees of all classes and at all levels of Governance to be unabashedly corrupt. And this has a many fold multiplier effect both in the scale and impact when the entire tree is corrupt over a few significant nodes. This is also the reason why the political, bureaucratic and employee class is generally very happy and more co-operative with these regimes while the common man experiences big surge in corruption at each of his interactions with the Government.

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:23 pm

Idéfix wrote:
Propagandhi711 wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
smArtha wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
On corruption, I think the difference between Congress and BJP is marginal.

Is that true? If we take Yeddy, Gadkari or George Fernandes the scale and magnitude of their scams are small compared to that of the Coal, Spectrum, Common Wealth, Vanpic. The only BJP guy who matches them is Gali Janardhan Reddy and this guy is no longer in BJP now had blessings from the YSR regime too.
My hunch is that the scale of the BJP's scams is in proportion to the scale of their influence in government.

I don't have the numbers to back this up. But it will be interesting to test... first come up with the total amount of government expenditures since independence. Then assign them to the major party that had executive control on how those funds were spent, using "who was PM" (or CM in the case of state government expenditures) as the shortcut. Then add up the value of all the known scams of each party, and divide the value of the scams by the value of the funds controlled. It will interesting to see if Congress still trumps everyone else by this measure.

great methodology from the it's raining coz I tell you so school of thought. let us do the same with murders. let us select quakers and muslims & do an analysis of who has more committed per capita murders by taking into account the relative population sizes and questionable deaths since 600 ad. foolproof method! everyone else that may not agree with our conclusions can be termed fools.
If you prefer the "make up your mind first and then look at facts if you absolutely have to" methodology, good for you.

BBC ran a series (probably before you came here) on how the Roman empire collapsed. Apparently, even in those days, there were exceptionally brilliant analysts who gave sermons that there was no difference between the senators who were on the side of the treasury and those sitting in opposition when it comes to corruption. They also gave lectures that corruption by itself had no power to destroy a great culture as long as people do the work. So, it was alright for Rome if the wife of Claudius was running the show from behind the scene, taking bribes, appointing crooks to govt positions and sleeping with every jerk she could find.

Bravo! Bharateeeeeeeeyatva zindabad. Vadra ji Jai Ho.

by Kris Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:08 am

confuzzled dude wrote:
Kris wrote:>>>Modi- Congress has had enough time and it has screwed up and there is no new vision. Modi has run a state and from all accounts, he has not done a shabby job of it. If he doesn't perform, boot him out. This secular/religious tolerance issue is secondary, since even assuming the worst of him ( nothing proven, by the way), India is not a banana republic. It has an active press and a robust opposition that will act as a check.
Well, Iran was progressive in the '60 & '70s, women were banned from wearing veil as early as in the '30s. Look what happened when a religious fanatic supported by the west took over.

Also, I would like to ask whether or not these ultra progressive Hindu Suchers that are singing development-kumbaya day & night would support, a Muslim candidate with similar credentials as Modi but with Islamic bent was contesting and projected as PM of India, with the same fervor.

>>>The fanatic was Khomeini whose knowledge was limited to two things: shah=bad, Koran= all answers. I'm not sure there is a parallel here . It was either the high-handedness of the shah or this nut. Unfortunately, that was (and is) the nature of the Iranian polity with no tradition of self-governance or democracy. Indians have ruled themselves for 67 years and have no problems voting out governments. Indians understand orderly transition of governments. Let's not dumb ourselves down to make a spurious point. Your litmus test may very well yield unfavorable results for a muslim candidate, but I am not sure why this is being held up as a standard. By that logic, would you nullify all the election results since the formation of the United States till the end of the 20th century since the public did not have the mindset to vote in a black person or a woman? That may reflect the latent racism of the voting public and a certain tendency toward misogyny, but it does not lessen the qualifications of the men they elected.

by Idéfix Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:18 am

smArtha wrote:Especially, when you claim that the difference in corruption between Congress and BJP is marginal without verifying the facts or numbers as you yourself had indicated?

My hunch (and it is just that) is based on the fact that the Congress has ruled India and its several states for much, much longer than the BJP, and hence its denominator would be several times larger that of the BJP. Popular perception of Congress's corruption is based on the numerator -- all the scams you listed upthread. When the BJP had access to the cookie jar, we have seen cases like Yeddy et al.

smArtha wrote:In any case, besides the obvious number and magnitude of scams, another reason for the perception of high corruption during the Congress, DMK, SP or BSP regimes over that of BJP, TDP, JDU, BJD, ADMK is that during the rule of the former they empower their entire rank and file cadre, bureaucracy, employees of all classes and at all levels of Governance to be unabashedly corrupt. And this has a many fold multiplier effect both in the scale and impact when the entire tree is corrupt over a few significant nodes. This is also the reason why the political, bureaucratic and employee class is generally very happy and more co-operative with these regimes while the common man experiences big surge in corruption at each of his interactions with the Government.

This is an interesting thesis, but I am not sure it is consistent with what I observed when I lived under Congress rule and BJP/TDP rule in India. My perception was that corruption of lower level government employees went on regardless of who was CM or PM.

by Idéfix Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:19 am

Kris wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
Kris wrote:>>>Modi- Congress has had enough time and it has screwed up and there is no new vision. Modi has run a state and from all accounts, he has not done a shabby job of it. If he doesn't perform, boot him out. This secular/religious tolerance issue is secondary, since even assuming the worst of him ( nothing proven, by the way), India is not a banana republic. It has an active press and a robust opposition that will act as a check.
Well, Iran was progressive in the '60 & '70s, women were banned from wearing veil as early as in the '30s. Look what happened when a religious fanatic supported by the west took over.

Also, I would like to ask whether or not these ultra progressive Hindu Suchers that are singing development-kumbaya day & night would support, a Muslim candidate with similar credentials as Modi but with Islamic bent was contesting and projected as PM of India, with the same fervor.
>>>The fanatic was Khomeini whose knowledge was limited to two things: shah=bad, Koran= all answers. I'm not sure there is a parallel here . It was either the high-handedness of the shah or this nut. Unfortunately, that was (and is) the nature of the Iranian polity with no tradition of self-governance or democracy. Indians have ruled themselves for 67 years and have no problems voting out governments. Indians understand orderly transition of governments. Let's not dumb ourselves down to make a spurious point. Your litmus test may very well yield unfavorable results for a muslim candidate, but I am not sure why this is being held up as a standard. By that logic, would you nullify all the election results since the formation of the United States till the end of the 20th century since the public did not have the mindset to vote in a black person or a woman? That may reflect the latent racism of the voting public and a certain tendency toward misogyny, but it does not lessen the qualifications of the men they elected.

Besides, I don't think the west supported Khomeini over the Shah -- quite the contrary in fact.

by Kris Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:28 am

Idéfix wrote:
Kris wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
Kris wrote:>>>Modi- Congress has had enough time and it has screwed up and there is no new vision. Modi has run a state and from all accounts, he has not done a shabby job of it. If he doesn't perform, boot him out. This secular/religious tolerance issue is secondary, since even assuming the worst of him ( nothing proven, by the way), India is not a banana republic. It has an active press and a robust opposition that will act as a check.
Well, Iran was progressive in the '60 & '70s, women were banned from wearing veil as early as in the '30s. Look what happened when a religious fanatic supported by the west took over.

Also, I would like to ask whether or not these ultra progressive Hindu Suchers that are singing development-kumbaya day & night would support, a Muslim candidate with similar credentials as Modi but with Islamic bent was contesting and projected as PM of India, with the same fervor.
>>>The fanatic was Khomeini whose knowledge was limited to two things: shah=bad, Koran= all answers. I'm not sure there is a parallel here . It was either the high-handedness of the shah or this nut. Unfortunately, that was (and is) the nature of the Iranian polity with no tradition of self-governance or democracy. Indians have ruled themselves for 67 years and have no problems voting out governments. Indians understand orderly transition of governments. Let's not dumb ourselves down to make a spurious point. Your litmus test may very well yield unfavorable results for a muslim candidate, but I am not sure why this is being held up as a standard. By that logic, would you nullify all the election results since the formation of the United States till the end of the 20th century since the public did not have the mindset to vote in a black person or a woman? That may reflect the latent racism of the voting public and a certain tendency toward misogyny, but it does not lessen the qualifications of the men they elected.
Besides, I don't think the west supported Khomeini over the Shah -- quite the contrary in fact.

>>>There may have been some lukewarm noises by Carter. He wished him Id Mubarak or some such thing. At some level Carter may have also believed there could be a connection because they were both 'men of god' (Jimmy was strange that way), but no, there was no big support for the K-man. There was another twist, where K's grandson stopped by the WSJ offices in NYC some time ago and intoned that his grandfather was misunderstood and the revolution had gotten hijacked. I don't think the article I read elaborated on how exactly this took place. Overall, the attitude toward the Shah, till Carter jilted him, seems to have been 'they are both sons of bitches, but the shah is our son of a bitch''

by truthbetold Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:20 am

Cd
Modi's possible victory seems to have robbed your normal cognitive skills.
khomeni supported by west? He was given assylum in Paris. Shah. Was the darling of the west. He was merely advised on some civil right issues. Oil crisis resulted in some western resentment of shah's role but no one tried to topple from outside. It was iranian people.
Kris gave a good summary of the situation of those days.

by truthbetold Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:28 am

confuzzled dude wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Idefix
Your excuses for Congress are funny. Bjp state govts have been relatively corruption free and more effective.
The question that remains unanswered by secularists is they put all their effort to bring 2002 riots to the forefront to the exclusion of every other issue that is important to the lives of people. Why do they either hide or ignore or diminish or minimize the failures/misdeeds/corruption/incompetence/distortions of democracy of Congress?
Do you have any facts to support your claims or you are going to parrot it like you would in case of CBN

cd
settle down man. I did not understand that parrot, cbn sentence. When you are sober and regained normal balance repeat your accusations in a more simpler sentence to allow me to respond.

by truthbetold Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:53 am

Idéfix wrote:I don't believe Modi has strong development credentials.

Tbt: why do you say that? Question is not whether modi is the best. From your own numbers modi led Gujarat is among top performers for a long time. People who should know I.e. Gujarat citizens seem to think so.
Industrialists who generally avoid controversy risked their reputations to support modi.

I do think Congress has mismanaged the economy in the last few years. Modi has done an excellent job on PR and media management in recasting himself as a development candidate and taking advantage of Congress's poor record.

On corruption, I think the difference between Congress and BJP is marginal. I don't think Modi is personally corrupt, and I don't think MMS is personally corrupt. Congress does have a much more illustrious track record of stealing public funds, but I attribute that to their greater time in government.

Tbt :the difference between modi and mms is that one of them allowed huge scans to go on under his nose. One of them failed to act after they were to bought to his notice. In fact one of them allowed his govt to obstruct, misdirect and malign the investigations( ex: parliament report on 2g scam). People perceive modi can run a scam free govt.

On religious tolerance, I simply do not trust Modi. He made his career by exploiting Hindu-Muslim tensions, and consciously promoted well-known criminals just because their crimes were perpetrated on Muslim victims.

by truthbetold Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:13 am

Idefix
On corruption.
your claim: Congress ruled for long. Hence the reputation. The difference between them is marginal.
Answer: take the last 15 to 20 years. This is the first time Indian history that parties are really contending for power. Both ruled center and States. In those years you look atgovt scans and look at the results. Here are few words that sum up.history.
2g, coal scam, cwg, adarsh, helicopters, ysr
Yeddy, munda.
Tell me how that difference is marginal?

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:33 am

truthbetold wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Idefix
Your excuses for Congress are funny. Bjp state govts have been relatively corruption free and more effective.
The question that remains unanswered by secularists is they put all their effort to bring 2002 riots to the forefront to the exclusion of every other issue that is important to the lives of people. Why do they either hide or ignore or diminish or minimize the failures/misdeeds/corruption/incompetence/distortions of democracy of Congress?
Do you have any facts to support your claims or you are going to parrot it like you would in case of CBN
cd
settle down man. I did not understand that parrot, cbn sentence. When you are sober and regained normal balance repeat your accusations in a more simpler sentence to allow me to respond.

hahaha. that's too funny-- TBT claiming someone else's post is hard to understand!

by truthbetold Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:05 am

Good morning max. what better way to start the day than with snotty remarks.
your inability to comprehend what others say comes from your conceptual blindness.

by confuzzled dude Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:22 am

Idéfix wrote: This is an interesting thesis, but I am not sure it is consistent with what I observed when I lived under Congress rule and BJP/TDP rule in India. My perception was that corruption of lower level government employees went on regardless of who was CM or PM.

Sir your personal biases are clouding your judgement. When CBN comesback he will just wave magic wand & all the Govt. employees will turn into uncorrupt.

by smArtha Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:51 am

confuzzled dude wrote:
Idéfix wrote: This is an interesting thesis, but I am not sure it is consistent with what I observed when I lived under Congress rule and BJP/TDP rule in India. My perception was that corruption of lower level government employees went on regardless of who was CM or PM.
Sir your personal biases are clouding your judgement. When CBN comesback he will just wave magic wand & all the Govt. employees will turn into uncorrupt.

Nope he'll just use the Stick (not throw Carrots like YSR) to make them fall in line. They may still indulge in some corruption but will now be doing it in a hush hush rather than all out and in open manner and this results in a)many small/mediocre ones will now take less or nothing b) some adventurous ones will indulge but will keep it for larger deals worthy of such a risk than for all and sundry day to day work and lastly c) a strong administrator at the helm also ensures that governance and administrative works gets done as opposed to staying stand still. All these are what weak leaderships with wholly corrupt systems cannot ensure.

by confuzzled dude Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:07 pm

smArtha wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
Idéfix wrote: This is an interesting thesis, but I am not sure it is consistent with what I observed when I lived under Congress rule and BJP/TDP rule in India. My perception was that corruption of lower level government employees went on regardless of who was CM or PM.
Sir your personal biases are clouding your judgement. When CBN comesback he will just wave magic wand & all the Govt. employees will turn into uncorrupt.

Nope he'll just use the Stick (not throw Carrots like YSR) to make them fall in line. They may still indulge in some corruption but will now be doing it in a hush hush rather than all out and in open manner and this results in a)many small/mediocre ones will now take less or nothing b) some adventurous ones will indulge but will keep it for larger deals worthy of such a risk than for all and sundry day to day work and lastly c) a strong administrator at the helm also ensures that governance and administrative works gets done as opposed to staying stand still. All these are what weak leaderships with wholly corrupt systems cannot ensure.

If you think all of those have happened & will happen with CBN at the helm & the opposite occurs with Congress govts, you must be hallucinating. By all means, please go ahead and narrate these madeup stories to your kids along with Ramayanam & Mahabharatam; nothing could be further from truth.

by smArtha Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:10 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
smArtha wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:Sir your personal biases are clouding your judgement. When CBN comesback he will just wave magic wand & all the Govt. employees will turn into uncorrupt.

Nope he'll just use the Stick (not throw Carrots like YSR) to make them fall in line. They may still indulge in some corruption but will now be doing it in a hush hush rather than all out and in open manner and this results in a)many small/mediocre ones will now take less or nothing b) some adventurous ones will indulge but will keep it for larger deals worthy of such a risk than for all and sundry day to day work and lastly c) a strong administrator at the helm also ensures that governance and administrative works gets done as opposed to staying stand still. All these are what weak leaderships with wholly corrupt systems cannot ensure.
If you think all of those have happened & will happen with CBN at the helm & the opposite occurs with Congress govts, you must be hallucinating. By all means, please go ahead and narrate these madeup stories to your kids along with Ramayanam & Mahabharatam; nothing could be further from truth.

If you think Mahabharat and Ramayana are made up stories, you can as well sell your utopian 'rAjanna rAjyam' dreams to your kids and grand children. Never mind even if they don't buy them and make fun of you, you can still continue to believe and live it. Free country for all this is.

by Sponsored content