WHy UPites oppose English in UPSC (IAS, etc) exams

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sun Aug 03, 2014 3:49 pm

....The cow is our mother, we warship her. She is a scared animal. Cow is a holy animal. It is believed that all her organs Gods exists... A piece of paper, on which these three close friends reluctantly agreed to write a few sentences on the cow in English, is what made them realize that they stand no chance of becoming IAS officers. Read more at: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/39489886.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

Imagine these guys posted in TN and Karanataka. These will act as Hindi agents and demand that everyone read/write/speak in hindi.

What next? oppose history, Math, Geography, etc...

by Guest Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:41 pm

the use of the Queen's language in the IAS exam is seen as elitist, biased against rural folk and favourable to city-based English-medium educated students who are finding the new format of the civil services examination easier to crack.

Their revolt is understandable. Won't the students from Tamil medium schools or any vernacular language medium schools have the same problem? Only a fraction of the population in India have mastery over English. CSAT exams should be offered in all indian languages.

Let the suchers not get all twisted over that.

"They [students] have never said that they won't learn English."

Gupta, for one, definitely wants to learn English. But not for taking IAS exams. "We come from a small village where English was taught to us in government school from standard VI," adds Gupta, who is pursuing BSc (Maths). "We want to take the IAS exam in Hindi, which is our language. Why don't you have a Hindi comprehension passage for English-medium students? Make them write an essay in Hindi. Can they?"

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sun Aug 03, 2014 6:16 pm

Kinnera wrote:the use of the Queen's language in the IAS exam is seen as elitist, biased against rural folk and favourable to city-based English-medium educated students who are finding the new format of the civil services examination easier to crack.

Their revolt is understandable. Won't the students from Tamil medium schools or any vernacular language medium schools have the same problem? Only a fraction of the population in India have mastery over English. CSAT exams should be offered in all indian languages.

Let the suchers not get all twisted over that.

"They [students] have never said that they won't learn English."

Gupta, for one, definitely wants to learn English. But not for taking IAS exams. "We come from a small village where English was taught to us in government school from standard VI," adds Gupta, who is pursuing BSc (Maths). "We want to take the IAS exam in Hindi, which is our language. Why don't you have a Hindi comprehension passage for English-medium students? Make them write an essay in Hindi. Can they?"

Here is a solution for that:

1. Allow all 22+ languages in the exam.

2. Divide the UPSC into metro and rural categories. The Metro cadre can be posted anywhere in the country. The Rural cadre will restrict the appointees to rural areas in their respective linguisitic regions. That is until the rural officers pass English at a high level - speak and write in a way most can understand despite their expected grammar/spelling mistakes

Of course, this will create an Elite IAS and a Saadha IAS cadre.

by Kris Sun Aug 03, 2014 7:28 pm

Kinnera wrote:the use of the Queen's language in the IAS exam is seen as elitist, biased against rural folk and favourable to city-based English-medium educated students who are finding the new format of the civil services examination easier to crack.

Their revolt is understandable. Won't the students from Tamil medium schools or any vernacular language medium schools have the same problem? Only a fraction of the population in India have mastery over English. CSAT exams should be offered in all indian languages.

Let the suchers not get all twisted over that.

"They [students] have never said that they won't learn English."

Gupta, for one, definitely wants to learn English. But not for taking IAS exams. "We come from a small village where English was taught to us in government school from standard VI," adds Gupta, who is pursuing BSc (Maths). "We want to take the IAS exam in Hindi, which is our language. Why don't you have a Hindi comprehension passage for English-medium students? Make them write an essay in Hindi. Can they?"

by Kris Sun Aug 03, 2014 7:40 pm

Gupta may have a point if he does not want to serve outside the hindi belt. As Uppili says maybe they can divide this into a metro division and a non-metro division to accommodate these folks, even though that the may limit possibilities for the latter group. The one thing that is telling here is Gupta's lack of ease with English, after learning it from 6th grade and despite pursuing an undergrad degree, where presumably much of the material is taught in English. Personally I think India should be concentrating this state of affairs rather than obsess with Hindification. Remember the Infosys guys who spoke in hinglish in the office in Wisconsin. That was probably more due to the gupta syndrome than any particular insensitivity toward other employees. India is going to end up losing the advantage of English.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Aug 03, 2014 7:43 pm

Kris wrote:Gupta may have a point if he does not want to serve outside the hindi belt. As Uppili says maybe they can divide this into a metro division and a non-metro division to accommodate these folks, even though that the may limit possibilities for the latter group. The one thing that is telling here is Gupta's lack of ease with English, after learning it from 6th grade and despite pursuing an undergrad degree, where presumably much of the material is taught in English. Personally I think India should be concentrating this state of affairs rather than obsess with Hindification. Remember the Infosys guys who spoke in hinglish in the office in Wisconsin. That was probably more due to the gupta syndrome than any particular insensitivity toward other employees. India is going to end up losing the advantage of English.

if there was an advantage, it was a very tiny advantage. i heard murali vijay the indian opener speaking in 'english' the other day on TV. i had no idea what he was trying to say. and this is a tamilian who is supposed to have better command of english than northerners! by contrast many chinese speak understandable english these days.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:29 pm

Kris wrote:Gupta may have a point if he does not want to serve outside the hindi belt. As Uppili says maybe they can divide this into a metro division and a non-metro division to accommodate these folks, even though that the may limit possibilities for the latter group. The one thing that is telling here is Gupta's lack of ease with English, after learning it from 6th grade and despite pursuing an undergrad degree, where presumably much of the material is taught in English. Personally I think India should be concentrating this state of affairs rather than obsess with Hindification. Remember the Infosys guys who spoke in hinglish in the office in Wisconsin. That was probably more due to the gupta syndrome than any particular insensitivity toward other employees. India is going to end up losing the advantage of English.

It looks like the UP Hindians thnk it is their RIGHT to have everything they want - whether they have the skills are not. How about the nontechnies demanding that IT companies exempt them from programming skills bcz they came from areas with no computer facilities.

If they want to work as an IAS babu, they know what is expected and they should have put in hard work from first year UG. Who said these dumb idiots will pass all other subjects? First they should be tested on those non-english subjects before even bothering about English. Rajnath and RSS assume hindification will unite India as though it has been divided many times since independence. In fact, hindification will take decades, but hindi-imposed disintegration will take just 10 years MAX.

Stupid RSS.

by Kris Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:00 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Kris wrote:Gupta may have a point if he does not want to serve outside the hindi belt. As Uppili says maybe they can divide this into a metro division and a non-metro division to accommodate these folks, even though that the may limit possibilities for the latter group. The one thing that is telling here is Gupta's lack of ease with English, after learning it from 6th grade and despite pursuing an undergrad degree, where presumably much of the material is taught in English. Personally I think India should be concentrating this state of affairs rather than obsess with Hindification. Remember the Infosys guys who spoke in hinglish in the office in Wisconsin. That was probably more due to the gupta syndrome than any particular insensitivity toward other employees. India is going to end up losing the advantage of English.

if there was an advantage, it was a very tiny advantage. i heard murali vijay the indian opener speaking in 'english' the other day on TV. i had no idea what he was trying to say. and this is a tamilian who is supposed to have better command of english than northerners! by contrast many chinese speak understandable english these days.

>>The quality of spoken English is admittedly all over the map (see my comment on the Infosys employees in Wisconsin), but there was enough of an advantage to pull in the back office work. The low wages were just one part of it. The language was still a relative advantage over other low wage countries. The problem now if is a bit of a double whammy. Indian wages are rising and other countries are making a concerted effort to catch up on English. India cannot afford to go in the other direction. If there are places in the country where students like Gupta have been taught English for 10 years, but are not able to understand basic essays, it should be a priority to figure out what went wrong. I think Gupta even said he would like to learn English, which doesn't make sense since ostensibly he has been taught it since 6th grade. How did he pass the classes? What did he study? I am not faulting him for it, but rather asking why the system failed.

by Guest Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:15 pm

Kris wrote:Gupta may have a point if he does not want to serve outside the hindi belt. As Uppili says maybe they can divide this into a metro division and a non-metro division to accommodate these folks, even though that the may limit possibilities for the latter group. The one thing that is telling here is Gupta's lack of ease with English, after learning it from 6th grade and despite pursuing an undergrad degree, where presumably much of the material is taught in English. Personally I think India should be concentrating this state of affairs rather than obsess with Hindification. Remember the Infosys guys who spoke in hinglish in the office in Wisconsin. That was probably more due to the gupta syndrome than any particular insensitivity toward other employees. India is going to end up losing the advantage of English.

The one thing that i observed is the kind of complexes that are attached to the knowledge or lack of English in India. It is something that is unique only to India. We see that kind of crap on this board too. This restricts the students from the rural areas and from vernacular medium schools to talk in english confidently. This becomes a stumbling block in mastering the language. This is something that is not restricted to just one region or state. We can see that all over india. Once they overcome the complex and talk freely in english, without the fear of ridicule, they'll be able to learn it fast.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:38 pm

Kinnera wrote:
Kris wrote:Gupta may have a point if he does not want to serve outside the hindi belt. As Uppili says maybe they can divide this into a metro division and a non-metro division to accommodate these folks, even though that the may limit possibilities for the latter group. The one thing that is telling here is Gupta's lack of ease with English, after learning it from 6th grade and despite pursuing an undergrad degree, where presumably much of the material is taught in English. Personally I think India should be concentrating this state of affairs rather than obsess with Hindification. Remember the Infosys guys who spoke in hinglish in the office in Wisconsin. That was probably more due to the gupta syndrome than any particular insensitivity toward other employees. India is going to end up losing the advantage of English.
The one thing that i observed is the kind of complexes that are attached to the knowledge or lack of English in India. It is something that is unique only to India. We see that kind of crap on this board too. This restricts the students from the rural areas and from vernacular medium schools to talk in english confidently. This becomes a stumbling block in mastering the language. This is something that is not restricted to just one region or state. We can see that all over india. Once they overcome the complex and talk freely in english, without the fear of ridicule, they'll be able to learn it fast.

I am firmly of the view that no one should be discriminated based on things over which they have no control. But, having a working knowledge of English is a required skill for IAS and UPSC jobs. It is about communication skills, inter-personal skills, etc. As such there are SC/St quotas, state distribution, and add to this the linguistic quotas. This will be a failure and will extend to other fields and tests.

by bw Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:42 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

....The cow is our mother, we warship her. She is a scared animal. Cow is a holy animal. It is believed that all her organs Gods exists... A piece of paper, on which these three close friends reluctantly agreed to write a few sentences on the cow in English, is what made them realize that they stand no chance of becoming IAS officers. Read more at: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/39489886.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

Imagine these guys posted in TN and Karanataka. These will act as Hindi agents and demand that everyone read/write/speak in hindi.

What next? oppose history, Math, Geography, etc...

what exactly do these "IAS officers" do? other than live in palatial bungalows, have many minions attending to them and wear "safari suits"? i know there is a lot of prestige associated with being one but how effective are they? it is an honest question.

by Kris Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:53 pm

bw wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

....The cow is our mother, we warship her. She is a scared animal. Cow is a holy animal. It is believed that all her organs Gods exists... A piece of paper, on which these three close friends reluctantly agreed to write a few sentences on the cow in English, is what made them realize that they stand no chance of becoming IAS officers. Read more at: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/39489886.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

Imagine these guys posted in TN and Karanataka. These will act as Hindi agents and demand that everyone read/write/speak in hindi.

What next? oppose history, Math, Geography, etc...

what exactly do these "IAS officers" do? other than live in palatial bungalows, have many minions attending to them and wear "safari suits"? i know there is a lot of prestige associated with being one but how effective are they? it is an honest question.

>>>Take bribes? Smile

As best as I can make out, this is a throwback to the british raj days when they needed to make sure the governmental machinery kept churning. That administrative need has not gone away. I honestly don't know who aspires to this anymore, given the alternatives available now for bright people.

by Kris Sun Aug 03, 2014 10:00 pm

Kinnera wrote:
Kris wrote:Gupta may have a point if he does not want to serve outside the hindi belt. As Uppili says maybe they can divide this into a metro division and a non-metro division to accommodate these folks, even though that the may limit possibilities for the latter group. The one thing that is telling here is Gupta's lack of ease with English, after learning it from 6th grade and despite pursuing an undergrad degree, where presumably much of the material is taught in English. Personally I think India should be concentrating this state of affairs rather than obsess with Hindification. Remember the Infosys guys who spoke in hinglish in the office in Wisconsin. That was probably more due to the gupta syndrome than any particular insensitivity toward other employees. India is going to end up losing the advantage of English.
The one thing that i observed is the kind of complexes that are attached to the knowledge or lack of English in India. It is something that is unique only to India. We see that kind of crap on this board too. This restricts the students from the rural areas and from vernacular medium schools to talk in english confidently. This becomes a stumbling block in mastering the language. This is something that is not restricted to just one region or state. We can see that all over india. Once they overcome the complex and talk freely in english, without the fear of ridicule, they'll be able to learn it fast.

>>>Kinnera,

I agree with you about the complex toward English in India. It is a colonial hangover. I have had some exasperating experiences personally where people felt they had to speak to me in English when there was no need. What I am referring to is something else. I am specifically referring to why after several years of being taught English, someone feels he is at a disadvantage in terms of a comprehension exam in it. Again, I am not faulting Gupta for it, but rather questioning the teaching methods.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:43 pm

bw wrote:

what exactly do these "IAS officers" do? other than live in palatial bungalows, have many minions attending to them and wear "safari suits"? i know there is a lot of prestige associated with being one but how effective are they? it is an honest question.

IAS babudom is the most sought after - even more than doctor, engineer, phoren, etc..etc...

If you are a guilt and an IAS officer, the dowry is sky high....at least until BJP came to power. I am sure the market will bounce back.

by Kayalvizhi Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:58 am

>>> Why can't the UPSC teach them English once they clear the examinations,

Why don't you appoint fellow from the street as chief surgeon of hindian hospital and them teach him/her surgery?

by Seva Lamberdar Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:32 am

The Govt. in India and the majority of people there think that, rather than the merit, caste or religion is the right consideration for quotas / reservations in education and jobs.

Similarly, against all reason, people and Govt. in India think that it makes sense in the 20^th and 21^st centuries to have the archaic, divisive and discriminatory religious / community laws officially in use.

So, why not people also have the rural consideration in getting the UPSC seats, because it just seems an extension of the people usually getting education and job privileges based on their caste and exercising the legal rights based on their religions with full support and encouragement from the Govt.?

by Kayalvizhi Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:51 am

Quota based on state. Select enough people from each state to fill vacancis in that state. They know the language and culture.

Don't post a Hindian as collector of Madurai district. He knows hows how to say vanalkkam. His 1st order of business was to put Hindi street signs in Madurai city,

by Seva Lamberdar Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:33 pm

Kayalvizhi wrote:Quota based on state. Select enough people from each state to fill vacancis in that state. They know the language and culture.

Don't post a Hindian as collector of Madurai district. He knows hows how to say vanalkkam. His 1st order of business was to put Hindi street signs in Madurai city,

Perhaps there is a point in what you are saying.

Several years ago I was building a house in a village in Himachal Pradesh. I had to get some documents stamped and signed in the local SDM's office. When I visited the SDM's office in the nearby town to get my work down, the clerk there told me "the SDM here was appointed about a six months ago and since she is a native of Tamilnadu and unable to speak Hindi or Pahadi (the languages used by most locals) she has not been able to carry out her work properly and therefore has gone on an extended leave."

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:47 pm

Kayalvizhi wrote:Quota based on state. Select enough people from each state to fill vacancis in that state. They know the language and culture.

Don't post a Hindian as collector of Madurai district. He knows hows how to say vanalkkam. His 1st order of business was to put Hindi street signs in Madurai city,

Right.... What is good for UPwalas should be good for ALL. Plain and simple. it will lead to divisiveness with the IAS cadre working within their own states - but so be it. In fact, other state cadre will know English and travel far and wide, and the UP walas will be dragged down to the level of Baluchis.

All those agitating UP losers should be appointed as Peons immediately, as they dont have the ability to learn a language. The ones who could must have gone onto work at call centers.

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Tue Aug 05, 2014 6:58 pm

Bhaiyyas are inadvertently sowing the seeds to split the country into more than two.

Bengal doesn't like Hindi domination. Maharashtra doesn't like Bhaiyyas working in Mumbai. Punjabis don't want Hindi............

So, Rashmun-ites may succeed in creating a BIMARU country so that H-M synthesis can happen at lightening speed. The others may get together and be happy that they can concentrate on development.

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WHy UPites oppose English in UPSC (IAS, etc) exams

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