Gults top IITs - that is old news.... this one is new

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:40 am

...This is what you call giving people a second chance....

by Guest Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:56 am

Thankfully, that doesn't apply to medical colleges.

by MulaiAzhagi Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:09 pm

Governor ESL Narasimhan, who is the chancellor of all universities in the state, is unhappy over the state of affairs.

Addressing JNTU Hyderabad convocation in May, he disapproved of the trend of giving admissions to students who don't score a single mark in EAMCET.

"There should be some minimum qualifying marks. What do you expect of such students, who score zero, to do in classrooms? Do you want to develop an inferiority complex among such students?" he asked.

===> What does Ponniyin Selvan think about this?

by MulaiAzhagi Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:12 pm

===> I hope Max does not say "Our [Tamil] SC/STs are smarter than the SC/STs from other states"

by MulaiAzhagi Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:21 pm

Interesting comment

[color:56b3=#000]Rajiv Singh 7 hours ago
ultimately what works in this world is POWER ...... "JISKI LATHI USKI BHAISN".....and after independence the lathi is vote which the sc,st,obc have in plenty by virtue of their vast number(their only merit) ....reservation and caste politics are mutually perpetuating ......they live and die together .....welfare , social justice , positive discrimination etc are all crap used to hide their real agenda of dominating the upper caste ....and believe me this can be only stopped by the rational sc,st,obc (i firmly believe there r so ) who do not want to see the demise of this great country by their act .....ourselves being slaves for 1000 years , at least now we should realize the importance of unity !!!!!

by MulaiAzhagi Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:48 pm

Seriously speaking, how can one get zero on an exam?

If it is multiple choice format, if the guy had chosen A for every question, at least one them should have been correct.

If it is written exam, there has to be some partially correct answer on the Math exam. That would have gotten the candidate atleast a single point.

by indophile Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:34 pm

MulaiAzhagi wrote:Seriously speaking, how can one get zero on an exam?

If the multiple choice question reads like: What is the difference between a man and a woman? --- (a) a man needs to shave his beard and a woman doesn't; (2) a woman has long hair and a man has short hair; (3) women are YY whereas men are XY; (4) all of the above.
And the answer (written in a multiple choice exam) reads like -- Differentiating between men and women is discrimination. They are both human. Discrimination based on sex, caste, etc., is bad for society. That's what Gandhi said, that's what Nehru said, that's what Ambedkar said, and that's my answer.
That answer might get a zero grade.

by Guest Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:54 am

MulaiAzhagi wrote:Seriously speaking, how can one get zero on an exam?

some of my son's friends, as per my son, got negative scores in math in iit-jee! so zero is not at all unachievable in multiple choice with/without negative marking. further many students leave the answer sheet incomplete -- this is very common. an ill-prepared student might run out of time obsessing over the first 5 questions in a set of 60.

by truthbetold Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:28 am

Just look at math. Ap has 300k engg seats. They could not even find warm bodies from any castes to fill more than 200k seats. At 15% for sc/dt it requires 40k students per year. That is a near impossibility at this time.

Ap needs a very small portion of these.engh seats. I hope 90% plus engg colleges close due to financial problems . That is the real solution .

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:52 am

truthbetold wrote:Just look at math. Ap has 300k engg seats. They could not even find warm bodies from any castes to fill more than 200k seats. At 15% for sc/dt it requires 40k students per year. That is a near impossibility at this time.

Ap needs a very small portion of these.engh seats. I hope 90% plus engg colleges close due to financial problems . That is the real solution .

Same in TN. There are about 450+ eng colleges, and the bottom 200 colleges cant fill all the seats. All Tamil channels are full of last min "ads" from these colleges hoping to fill some warm (or cold) bodies.

by truthbetold Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:16 pm

An associated unfortunate fact is a large percentage of these useless college students get their fees paid by govt. What a colossal waste of peoples money.

by Ponniyin Selvan Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:30 pm

MulaiAzhagi wrote:Governor ESL Narasimhan, who is the chancellor of all universities in the state, is unhappy over the state of affairs.

Addressing JNTU Hyderabad convocation in May, he disapproved of the trend of giving admissions to students who don't score a single mark in EAMCET.

"There should be some minimum qualifying marks. What do you expect of such students, who score zero, to do in classrooms? Do you want to develop an inferiority complex among such students?" he asked.

===> What does Ponniyin Selvan think about this?

I don't think this is anything new. People with money have bought medical and engineering seats without writing any of the entrance examinations.

BTW, you'll be interested in this website if you do not know this already.

http://www.brahmintoday.org/

Brahmin Today, the Tamil-English bilingual monthly magazine of Brahmins is named so, for specific reasons only. Unlike at any time of the long and cherished history of Brahmins, the need and compulsion to review the various aspects of Brahmanism is felt much today.

They have a special issue every September devoted to the issue of preventing Brahmins from marrying into other castes / religions etc..

by MulaiAzhagi Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:45 pm

Ponniyin Selvan,

Thank you for the link.

It is an interesting magazine.

BTW why is it so important for you that Brahmins marry out of caste?

IMO, with all the anti-brahmin feelings in TN, it will be easier for the Brahmin parents to handle their kids marrying vietnamese or an African than a Mudaliyar. Very simply because of the historical baggage both the families bring to the marriage. And anything the Brahmin does will be suspect to the anti-brahmin castes.

Why make life harder?

Especially when the parents have only one daughter or son. They have to depend on their child in their old age.

If the kid ends up marrying someone with a lot of resentment against Brahmins, they are not going to feel secure.

It is similar to the situation of a Jewish family whose daughter falling in love with a Palestinian who is member of Hamas.

Getting back to the magazine, the article on September 2008 makes a lot of sense. It is exactly on the lines of what VC used to write about in Sulekha. That demand for lavish marriage is destroying the Brahmin community.

by truthbetold Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:32 am

Ps
What is the relationship between brahmins and the topic on this thread? If you intent is to warm saras heart you probably delighted him. What is your thinking on engg seats for someone who got zero on entrance test?

by Merlot Daruwala Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:47 am

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:
I don't think this is anything new. People with money have bought medical and engineering seats without writing any of the entrance examinations.

People with money, who buy engineering seats through the management quota, are not using taxpayer money. They actually ensure continued viability of colleges that would have otherwise gone bankrupt given the low tuition fees mandated by the government.

The engineering education of these zero-scorers, on the other hand, is funded by taxpayers. That's the difference.

by Ponniyin Selvan Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:21 pm

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
People with money, who buy engineering seats through the management quota, are not using taxpayer money. They actually ensure continued viability of colleges that would have otherwise gone bankrupt given the low tuition fees mandated by the government.

The engineering education of these zero-scorers, on the other hand, is funded by taxpayers. That's the difference.

Well, If you think it is fine for people with money to bypass the criteria of exams, marks etc.. your real concern is not the quality of students who get in. why unnecessarily bother with the students who got zero marks. They are also taxpayers. Anyways, most of the tax money spent in any scheme ends up in the pockets of bureaucrats, middlemen , politicians etc..

BTW, where did you get the info that engineering education of zero scorers is funded by taxpayers ?. I don't think it is true.

by Ponniyin Selvan Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:36 pm

truthbetold wrote:Ps
What is the relationship between brahmins and the topic on this thread? If you intent is to warm saras heart you probably delighted him. What is your thinking on engg seats for someone who got zero on entrance test?

Just wanted to inform Sara about a fellow Tamil Brahmin who is concerned with the Brahmins (and particularly Tamil Brahmins). Just thought of connecting like minded people. It is fun to read the "Brahmin Today" magazine. I've also interacted with Vasan, editor of the magazine in facebook, a total nutcase.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:56 pm

brahmins wanting their youth to marry amongst their own is the least of TN's caste problems. for the most part every time i visit TN i get the sense that brahmins and how they want to conduct their lives are irrelevant to contemporary TN society.

there are far more urgent law and order problems

by Ponniyin Selvan Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:58 pm

MulaiAzhagi wrote:Ponniyin Selvan,

Thank you for the link.

It is an interesting magazine.

BTW why is it so important for you that Brahmins marry out of caste?

IMO, with all the anti-brahmin feelings in TN, it will be easier for the Brahmin parents to handle their kids marrying vietnamese or an African than a Mudaliyar. Very simply because of the historical baggage both the families bring to the marriage. And anything the Brahmin does will be suspect to the anti-brahmin castes.

Why make life harder?

Especially when the parents have only one daughter or son. They have to depend on their child in their old age.

If the kid ends up marrying someone with a lot of resentment against Brahmins, they are not going to feel secure.

It is similar to the situation of a Jewish family whose daughter falling in love with a Palestinian who is member of Hamas.

Getting back to the magazine, the article on September 2008 makes a lot of sense. It is exactly on the lines of what VC used to write about in Sulekha. That demand for lavish marriage is destroying the Brahmin community.

Actually it is not just Brahmins, over the last few months various caste leaders from Kongu vellala gounders to Vanniyars etc. have raised alarms about the increasing number of inter caste marriages. Over the last two years, I have attended around 15 weddings and more than half of them are inter-caste love marriages arranged with the blessings of parents. I think it is a good sign.

It is foreseeable that love marriages becomes the norm in cities in the immediate future and this kind of fightback to prevent that happening from casteist forces are expected.

by Ponniyin Selvan Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:01 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:brahmins wanting their youth to marry amongst their own is the least of TN's caste problems. for the most part every time i visit TN i get the sense that brahmins and how they want to conduct their lives are irrelevant to contemporary TN society.

there are far more urgent law and order problems

Partially agree and partially disagree. I just mentioned Brahmins because I thought Sara will be interested. As I mentioned just now, it is not just Brahmins, other dominant caste groups are also taking up cudgels against inter-caste weddings.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:08 pm

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:brahmins wanting their youth to marry amongst their own is the least of TN's caste problems. for the most part every time i visit TN i get the sense that brahmins and how they want to conduct their lives are irrelevant to contemporary TN society.

there are far more urgent law and order problems

Partially agree and partially disagree. I just mentioned Brahmins because I thought Sara will be interested. As I mentioned just now, it is not just Brahmins, other dominant caste groups are also taking up cudgels against inter-caste weddings.

PS: i have three points to make.

(i) anything that a group of people indulge in which does no public harm and doesn't marginalize someone else in the public sphere is nobody else's business.

(ii) i've never heard of brahmin marriage rituals and practices resulting in law and order problems.

(iii) lastly, i am not a proponent of government funded social engineering. however, it is my casual observation that tambrahms of all TN castes are probably the most open to exploring intercaste relationships and marriages. i have no data to support this however.

by Guest Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:49 am

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:Well, If you think it is fine for people with money to bypass the criteria of exams, marks etc.. your real concern is not the quality of students who get in. why unnecessarily bother with the students who got zero marks.

you mean a student can get admission in a medical or engineering school without appearing for an entrance test or getting zero on it and by getting just pass marks (say 40%) in pcm or pcb? give me proof or stop bullshitting. i know a girl who scored 44% in pcb and wants admission in ANY dental college right now. her parents will pay you whatever you want if you only give me clues to which college to apply to with a guaranteed admission under management or nri quota or any quota in the general category.

by Ponniyin Selvan Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:50 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Ponniyin Selvan wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:brahmins wanting their youth to marry amongst their own is the least of TN's caste problems. for the most part every time i visit TN i get the sense that brahmins and how they want to conduct their lives are irrelevant to contemporary TN society.

there are far more urgent law and order problems

Partially agree and partially disagree. I just mentioned Brahmins because I thought Sara will be interested. As I mentioned just now, it is not just Brahmins, other dominant caste groups are also taking up cudgels against inter-caste weddings.

PS: i have three points to make.

(i) anything that a group of people indulge in which does no public harm and doesn't marginalize someone else in the public sphere is nobody else's business.

(ii) i've never heard of brahmin marriage rituals and practices resulting in law and order problems.

(iii) lastly, i am not a proponent of government funded social engineering. however, it is my casual observation that tambrahms of all TN castes are probably the most open to exploring intercaste relationships and marriages. i have no data to support this however.

I think intra-caste marriages do more public harm than inter-caste marriages by perpetuating the caste system and its in-built mythological hierarchies. Just as anyone or any institution have rights to argue for preventing inter caste marriages others are equally entitled to oppose them.

by Ponniyin Selvan Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:55 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
Ponniyin Selvan wrote:Well, If you think it is fine for people with money to bypass the criteria of exams, marks etc.. your real concern is not the quality of students who get in. why unnecessarily bother with the students who got zero marks.
you mean a student can get admission in a medical or engineering school without appearing for an entrance test or getting zero on it and by getting just pass marks (say 40%) in pcm or pcb? give me proof or stop bullshitting. i know a girl who scored 44% in pcb and wants admission in ANY dental college right now. her parents will pay you whatever you want if you only give me clues to which college to apply to with a guaranteed admission under management or nri quota or any quota in the general category.

I think you should ask any of the thousands of private engineering / medical and dental schools. If she wants to study dental, try private dental colleges.

by Guest Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:02 am

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:I think you should ask any of the thousands of private engineering / medical and dental schools. If she wants to study dental, try private dental colleges.

her parents did. she was denied admission by even the shittiest college. even the shittiest college, in her state, insists on minimum 50% in pcb or cet for applications under the management and nri quota. this dictate is set by the state and afiiliate university. reputed colleges raise the minimum qualification bar even further. the child is now studying bsc under no quota.

but you seem to know of colleges that give admission under management quota with zero scores. PLEASE HELP US -- IT IS NOT TOO LATE FOR HER. if you are bullshitting, say so -- it will put us to ease.

by Ponniyin Selvan Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:09 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
Ponniyin Selvan wrote:I think you should ask any of the thousands of private engineering / medical and dental schools. If she wants to study dental, try private dental colleges.
her parents did. she was denied admission by even the shittiest college. even the shittiest college, in her state, insists on minimum 50% in pcb or cet for applications under the management and nri quota. this dictate is set by the state and afiiliate university. reputed colleges raise the minimum qualification bar even further. the child is now studying bsc under no quota.

but you seem to know of colleges that give admission under management quota with zero scores. PLEASE HELP US -- IT IS NOT TOO LATE FOR HER. if you are bullshitting, say so -- it will put us to ease.

Dude, don't come in the middle of an argument and bring in unrelated stuff. You can call and try private dental colleges. Try it. If you have enough money they can invent some seats for you. Ask them to try getting admitted to private colleges in Tamil nadu.

The point Merlot is making is that he is fine with people who come through management quota by paying money without an entrance exam or just for namesake exams, but not fine with people who get in through other means.

by Ponniyin Selvan Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:15 am

You can try this college

Ragas Dental College

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-01-26/chennai/30666460_1_capitation-fee-private-dental-colleges-pg-seat

by Guest Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:23 am

thank you. these colleges are taking students illegally even after the students have failed to meet the minimum qualifications. do you think it would be a good idea to send a ward to this college when the threat of the ward's admission being cancelled later looms?

The Tamil Nadu Private Dental Colleges Association - which conducts the common entrance test for six private dental colleges affiliated to the Tamil Nadu Dr MGR Medical University - has circulated a rank list with the names of 104 students. Sources said it received 125 applications and 110 appeared for the entrance examination, which was supervised by a state-appointed panel. As per the rank list, only 73 dentists who scored more than 50% qualified for MDS admission. But, some students who did not qualify were also given admissions after taking capitation fee. Medical fraternity said they were shocked how the government could be blind to such blatant corruption. Dental Council of India (DCI) president Dr Dibyendu Mazumdar said the council could stall the admission process and prevent students from writing their first semester examinations if illegal admissions were made. "But it has to be referred to us by the university or the state government," Dr Mazumdar said.

The TN Dr MGR Medical University, which registers students joining dental and medical courses, has failed to check if these students satisfied the criteria laid down by the DCI. Vice-chancellor Dr Mayil Vahanan Natarajan said, "We weren't aware of this. But now, we will ensure we initiate action against each of these colleges," he said.

by Ponniyin Selvan Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:32 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:thank you. these colleges are taking students illegally even after the students have failed to meet the minimum qualifications. do you think it would be a good idea to send a ward to this college when the threat of the ward's admission being cancelled later looms?

The Tamil Nadu Private Dental Colleges Association - which conducts the common entrance test for six private dental colleges affiliated to the Tamil Nadu Dr MGR Medical University - has circulated a rank list with the names of 104 students. Sources said it received 125 applications and 110 appeared for the entrance examination, which was supervised by a state-appointed panel. As per the rank list, only 73 dentists who scored more than 50% qualified for MDS admission. But, some students who did not qualify were also given admissions after taking capitation fee. Medical fraternity said they were shocked how the government could be blind to such blatant corruption. Dental Council of India (DCI) president Dr Dibyendu Mazumdar said the council could stall the admission process and prevent students from writing their first semester examinations if illegal admissions were made. "But it has to be referred to us by the university or the state government," Dr Mazumdar said.

The TN Dr MGR Medical University, which registers students joining dental and medical courses, has failed to check if these students satisfied the criteria laid down by the DCI. Vice-chancellor Dr Mayil Vahanan Natarajan said, "We weren't aware of this. But now, we will ensure we initiate action against each of these colleges," he said.

:-) Don't worry, nothing of that sort will happen, the college I believe is still functioning. From the news article, the only thing we can be confident about is that Dr. Mazumdar and Dr. Natarajan would have gotten richer by a few lakhs/crores (or) if they are honest their superiors would have been richer.

by Guest Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:38 am

Ponniyin Selvan wrote::-) Don't worry, nothing of that sort will happen, the college I believe is still functioning. From the news article, the only thing we can be confident about is that Dr. Mazumdar and Dr. Natarajan would have gotten richer by a few lakhs/crores (or) if they are honest their superiors would have been richer.

i am surprised to see this illegality rampant in TN. i will pass this info. to the parents of the child but i am pretty sure they will be reluctant to send their kid to this school. you do not realize, but this threat haunts the child life long. it can ruin the child's career any time if any adversary (be it an institution or person) wants to take this bit of information in the child's resume public. "don't worry" is hardly a reassurance...sorry, pass.

lastly, what you describe is an exception, not the rule.

by Guest Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:52 am

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:Dude, don't come in the middle of an argument and bring in unrelated stuff.

what? i am only buttressing merlot's comments. now there are 2 points:

1) management and nri quota students perforce need to conform to a minimum qualification in every state (illegal practices by institutions apart). zero score candidates DO NOT qualify.

2) this education is NOT funded by taxpayer money.

The point Merlot is making is that he is fine with people who come through management quota by paying money without an entrance exam or just for namesake exams, but not fine with people who get in through other means.

i will tend to agree with merlot but my reasons might be different. people who pay money for a seat seldom practice the profession. even when they do, their skills are never put to test. for example, akhilesh yadav is an engineer from a bangalore private engineering college. many doctors send their kids to medical schools through management/nri quota (let us assume, for the sake of the argument, on a zero score). these kids end up running clinics or nursing homes owned by their parents. these kids are from well-heeled backgrounds and do not need the skills of their education to stand on their feet. not so for the sc/st who got in with a zero score and have their education funded by the state.

by MulaiAzhagi Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:03 am

many doctors send their kids to medical schools through management/nri quota (let us assume, for the sake of the argument, on a zero score). these kids end up running clinics or nursing homes owned by their parents. these kids are from well-heeled backgrounds and do not need the skills of their education to stand on their feet.

==> I heard the medical colleges in India have an M.D program in Hospital administration!

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:41 am

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:
I think intra-caste marriages do more public harm than inter-caste marriages by perpetuating the caste system and its in-built mythological hierarchies.

even if one were to accept your assertion prima facie (and i do not but that's the subject of another discussion), what do you propose to do about it? this is always the question i have for folks like you and rashmun, and i never get convincing answers. by the word "do" i mean the question: what specific governmental programs or legislation do you propose to enact that will pass constitutional muster?

secondly, if you truly want to do away with the caste system and its ills IMO you are barking up the wrong tree and have more immediate problems to solve. a brahmin marrying within her caste has led to no law and order issues. a nadar or a thevar woman sending goons after her dalit son-in-law to beat him up presents immediate law and order problems that you need to address. this is the 21st century and it is time you realized the harsh reality which is that non-brahmin tamilians are far more casteist and communal than brahmins are. i am sure this statement comes across as very self serving to you, but i trust you to have the maturity to reflect on it and realize its essential correctness.

by Maria S Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:54 am

[quote="MaxEntropy_Man"] a brahmin marrying within her caste has led to no law and order issues. a nadar or a thevar woman sending goons after her dalit son-in-law to beat him up presents immediate law and order problems that you need to address.

May be it's just an example..but why this one? Wonder why such perceptions about Thevar or Nadar women?

Do you know of any case/cases in significant numbers..where a "Thevar or Nadar woman"..has ordered a hit on her ST/SC SIL or DIL? I am curious.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:56 am

Maria S wrote:

May be it's just an example..but why this one? Wonder why such perceptions about Thevar or Nadar women?

Do you know of any case/cases in significant numbers..where a "Thevar or Nadar woman"..has ordered a hit on her ST/SC DIL? I am curious.

i just posted an article last night from the hindu. look for it up the thread.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:03 am

as it turns out the MIL in this incident is a nadar woman. the reason i said nadar or thevar is because i couldn't remember which, but you can hardly hold that against me when we know well that the thevar community is notorious for physically bashing dalits.

as an insider, i can tell you that the reactions within the tambrahm community when one of their own marries a dalit or a BC person are of sympathy, murmurs of derision, and in extreme cases unofficial mild social ostracization along the lines of "avA pAvam, avAtthu poNNu daLitha paNNinduttALAm". within families i've observed that the ill feeling towards said offending off-spring and the non-brahmin off-spring-in-law has a finite life time and dissipates gradually by the time grandchildren come into the picture. then all is forgiven by the grandparents. contrast this with taking up vettaRuvALs and veechaRuvALs and the ensuing blood and gore.

by Maria S Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:14 am

This one?

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/tp-andhrapradesh/article3629520.ece

Thanks. But, one case..(with a woman who obviously deserves punishment..for what she did)..creates a stereotype.

*I am very familiar with these communities..and I have not come across physical violence in any significant numbers in TN- by parents inflicted in these intercaste marriages..in fact, there are far more Thevar and Nadar women who have "publicly" embraced Brahmin and Dalit..SILs and DILs.

*I cannot deny deep emotional prejudices exist..in almost ALL intercaste marriages- (some family members more than others)..am sure Brahmins and Thevars and Nadars and Dalits..all feel the same on some level.

In a forum like this..where there is hardly any "equal" representation from all -different castes..stereotypes lead to misconceptions, imo.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:18 am

maria nobody is denying that caste stereotypes and prejudices exist amongst all castes including brahmins. this is trivially true. but i am surprised to see you stoutly denying that physical violence often erupts between dalits and non-brahmin caste members.

i hope you'll agree that physical violence represents crossing the rubicon.

by Maria S Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:41 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

as an insider, i can tell you that the reactions within the tambrahm community when one of their own marries a dalit or a BC person are of sympathy, murmurs of derision, and in extreme cases unofficial mild social ostracization along the lines of "avA pAvam, avAtthu poNNu daLitha paNNinduttALAm". within families i've observed that the ill feeling towards said offending off-spring and the non-brahmin off-spring-in-law has a finite life time and dissipates gradually by the time grandchildren come into the picture. then all is forgiven by the grandparents. contrast this with taking up vettaRuvALs and veechaRuvALs and the ensuing blood and gore.

Thanks for the insights.

I am also trying to offer the same from what I see as an insider.

*The realities are the realities..Is there more "overall" physical violence in Non-Brahmin communities vs. Brahmin communities? Obviously, YES. Can anyone support or defend this? NO.

But one has to be careful..not to "dehumanize/minimize" the many, many non-violent people in other caste communities..and elevate one's own. Often- the psychological discrimination..emotional isolation (emotional abuse really) directed against DILs and SILs from other castes..is very obvious..and not good to see.

My concern is about esp. younger people see cases like this sensationalized..they really are fearful of falling in love- marrying someone from a different caste background.

*I agree with you..that there should absolutely be no "social engineering"...when it comes to marriages..just equal protection for all, under the law. It takes some "courage" for Indians..even in the 21st century to marry someone from a different caste- all that comes with it- in addition to all the problems in any marriage- caste, race, religion..is a layer to think about..

*Even in the West..as in the case of Tom Cruise..religion (Scientology)..seems to have been a major issue..and although people who think they can "handle the differences" often can't.

*Am glad we are having this "real" conversation about caste..perhaps we can learn the realities from insiders.

by confuzzled dude Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:19 am

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
Ponniyin Selvan wrote:
I don't think this is anything new. People with money have bought medical and engineering seats without writing any of the entrance examinations.

People with money, who buy engineering seats through the management quota, are not using taxpayer money. They actually ensure continued viability of colleges that would have otherwise gone bankrupt given the low tuition fees mandated by the government.

The engineering education of these zero-scorers, on the other hand, is funded by taxpayers. That's the difference.

I concur. Fundamentally, this is similar to what Ivy Leagues do to accommodate those politician's/businessmen's kids. An entrance exam result is not a true reflection of one's intellectual ability rather it only means how hard one trained for the test.

by Maria S Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:42 am

confuzzled dude wrote:

I concur. Fundamentally, this is similar to what Ivy Leagues do to accommodate those politician's/businessmen's kids. An entrance exam result is not a true reflection of one's intellectual ability rather it only means how hard one trained for the test.

I do too..think many colleges and Universities with so many high-scoring students who apply have a huge pool to pick from- look at scores as just one among many in the criteria for admissions.

Having said that..nice to see this happening as well..and no matter how much one wants to be caste-blind.."caste" does still makes headlines even today- for obvious reasons..while it may not be news that a Nadar or Thevar woman or a Brahmin man makes it to a Medical College..this one is noteworthy! Noting the big disparities which still exist.

Narikurava youth makes it to Thanjavur medical college

http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/tamil-nadu/article3628753.ece

by MulaiAzhagi Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:06 am

===> Maria,

I did not read that article yet.

The Narikurava kid getting into medical school is no big deal.

In all likelihood, he is intelligent and hard working.

Simply put, academic achievement depends up on the number of brain cells you have and the environment.

If you have mentors who impart you self discipline and good study skills, you get lucky.
It has nothing to do with caste or religion.

by Maria S Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:29 am

Sara, my friend..

I have to disagree and say it is still a big deal for this young man to get into Medical College, imo. You are making it much too simplistic:)

*I know caste-based reservations is a very controversial issue and can trigger strong opinions/emotions..and in this highly competitive world- every advantage matters- and naturally it is seen as "unfair"..but, there are no quick and easy solutions.

I do agree that it is time to drastically reduce caste-based reservations (esp. in TamilNadu), but, not all (yet) as in Narikurava community. I am absolutely fine with NOT offering some Nadar and Thevar Sub-groups..any special quotas. In case, anyone did not know..there were/are many subgroups, and we always competed in the FC.

Anyways..this too much caste talk for me, for one day! Moving on.

by MulaiAzhagi Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:01 pm

Maria,

I read the newsitem about the NariKurava kid.

Hats off to him.

He deserves to be a doctor.

He and his family need all the support from the society.

by Ponniyin Selvan Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:40 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Ponniyin Selvan wrote:
I think intra-caste marriages do more public harm than inter-caste marriages by perpetuating the caste system and its in-built mythological hierarchies.

even if one were to accept your assertion prima facie (and i do not but that's the subject of another discussion), what do you propose to do about it? this is always the question i have for folks like you and rashmun, and i never get convincing answers. by the word "do" i mean the question: what specific governmental programs or legislation do you propose to enact that will pass constitutional muster?

secondly, if you truly want to do away with the caste system and its ills IMO you are barking up the wrong tree and have more immediate problems to solve. a brahmin marrying within her caste has led to no law and order issues. a nadar or a thevar woman sending goons after her dalit son-in-law to beat him up presents immediate law and order problems that you need to address. this is the 21st century and it is time you realized the harsh reality which is that non-brahmin tamilians are far more casteist and communal than brahmins are. i am sure this statement comes across as very self serving to you, but i trust you to have the maturity to reflect on it and realize its essential correctness.

I think you are barking up the wrong tree too. Where did I say that other communities are not casteist or the problem lies only with Brahmins ?. If you read my earlier posts I have mentioned how the increasing number of inter-caste marriages these days have started to rile up casteist bigots from Brahmin/Kongu Vellala Gounder/Vanniyar etc.. communities. You are creating straw men arguments and taking them down.

Did I propose a legislation ?. or Did I ever justify violence perpetrated by different communities against the inter caste couples?.

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