Why would the Democrats call this racist?

Is it because the majority of the beneficiaries will be non-Hispanic?

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/11/30/house-passes-immigration-bill-to-keep-science-and-technology-students-in-u-s/

i am totally with the republicans on this one. the only thing i would add is that some minimum bar be established. it can't be just the getting of a masters or ph.d. degree but along with it, the publication of say one or two peer reviewed archival journal articles. i think that's important because there are a lot of lightweight ph.ds and masters that are given out.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i am totally with the republicans on this one. the only thing i would add is that some minimum bar be established. it can't be just the getting of a masters or ph.d. degree but along with it, the publication of say one or two peer reviewed archival journal articles. i think that's important because there are a lot of lightweight ph.ds and masters that are given out.

That was not nice.

Who are we to judge others?

Someone could have a Ph.D and might not have many peer reviewed papers. But he or she could be a great teacher in science or might do a great job coming up with new products for industry.

The guy who invented the USB connector is an Indian who got his M.S.E.E from CUNY. Would you consider him a lightweight?

Andy Grove and Jack Welch both have Ph.Ds in Chemical Engineering. They do not have many peer reviewed archival journal articles. Their contributions to the phenomenal success of Intel and GE cannot be denied.

Why would you want America to turn away any future Andy Grove or Jack Welch?

who are we to judge others? we are constantly judging others when we grade an exam, hire someone to work for us, and when we serve on a ph.d. thesis committee etc. we are also being constantly judged based on the quality and quantity of our work output.

i only suggested an example of a minimum bar. there could be others -- an important patent, starting a company etc.

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

The basic idea behind Game Design is to provide incentives and deterrents that overall improves the GDP and keeps it growing at a healthy clip.

A nimble responsive Policy should account for competitive forces aligned against national interest - wooing and granting green cards to the unwashed Ph.D and Master's students immediately upon graduation is as necessary as making the landscaper that jumped over the fence and who flashes Benjamins at Costco PoS, feel there is "chance in hell to be". His sons and daughters should have a fleeting chance of eventually getting citizenship just as they graduate highschool (a good 12 year vanavasam).

In short the ladders and snakes of immigration should be carefully planned in the National Interest.

Rishi wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i am totally with the republicans on this one. the only thing i would add is that some minimum bar be established. it can't be just the getting of a masters or ph.d. degree but along with it, the publication of say one or two peer reviewed archival journal articles. i think that's important because there are a lot of lightweight ph.ds and masters that are given out.

That was not nice.

Who are we to judge others?

Someone could have a Ph.D and might not have many peer reviewed papers. But he or she could be a great teacher in science or might do a great job coming up with new products for industry.

The guy who invented the USB connector is an Indian who got his M.S.E.E from CUNY. Would you consider him a lightweight?

Andy Grove and Jack Welch both have Ph.Ds in Chemical Engineering. They do not have many peer reviewed archival journal articles. Their contributions to the phenomenal success of Intel and GE cannot be denied.

Why would you want America to turn away any future Andy Grove or Jack Welch?

Do you know how many "PhDs" are given out in India and how easy to get from a myriad of universities most by paying "money". I am sure, there will be some kind of filter somewhere if such a thing is placed. The bill is different from establishing a procedure.

MAX's suggestion of 1 or 2 archival publications ? really ? Gone are the days of 1 or 2 papers for PhD-GC. INS wants a lot more. What with the daily establishment of "online" journals from everywhere in the world - so, there will be some filtration too.

I am sure, they could simply say anyone with a PhD or a master-level degree who gets a job can be offered a GC. The vast industry and university and other expertise can be used as an indirect filter.

i do realize that the bar set by INS for EB1 (and possibly EB2 as well) these days is unreasonable. but on the other end of the spectrum is romney's suggestion to staple a green card to every STEM masters and ph.d. which i also don't like because it has the potential to dilute quality and reduce salaries in the STEM workforce. there ought to be a middle ground which is less burdensome than the current requirements for EB1, but more robust than the come one come all kind of policy advocated by romney et al.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i do realize that the bar set by INS for EB1 (and possibly EB2 as well) these days is unreasonable. but on the other end of the spectrum is romney's suggestion to staple a green card to every STEM masters and ph.d. which i also don't like because it has the potential to dilute quality and reduce salaries in the STEM workforce. there ought to be a middle ground which is less burdensome than the current requirements for EB1, but more robust than the come one come all kind of policy advocated by romney et al.

This is a Pro-business bill.. Not a Pro-Nation or Pro-STEM bill. There are substantial number of foreign MS graduates who struggle to get jobs. As do most PhDs. The problem is the industries minimizing the importance of real research and long-term basic research. US produces some 4000+ PhDs most ending up as Post-docs for 50K. India produces less than 1000 quality PhDs. Those who are good and interested get jobs already. Then come the money degrees MBA and MBBS. Even Australia and Canada have a filtration system.

Degree + a common test (or simply they can be asked to take GRE/Advanced GRE/GMAT/FE etc.). Most docs who want to enter the US system need to take the same exam as the US graduates. Unfortunately, the Science and engineering fields are controlled by money/profit hungry corporations and no such systems exist for engineers. There is the PE exam which very few engineers in US take. The industry itself does not require them - But the INS rules can take care of them.

The intention of this bill is good but the real agenda of the republicans is not.

It is because the visas are created at the expense of a diversity program that benefits racial minorities.

panini press wrote:It is because the visas are created at the expense of a diversity program that benefits racial minorities.

Exactly..The republicans are fighting for the latest minority community - the whites. They are fast becoming miniority in man states. and in a lot of work places.

Yesterday we were talking at the work place about how in recent years, the whites go to any extent to hire whites - overlooking a lot more qualified other non whites. Then it dawned on me. They are actually acting like a victimized minority community. The Chinkus, jews, and others indirectly help recruit their own. Now the white men are the latest minority acting in a well-established manner.

Republicans are just trying to help this latest minority community.

panini press wrote:It is because the visas are created at the expense of a diversity program that benefits racial minorities.

Really? Aren't many foreign STEM graduates minorities?

panini press wrote:It is because the visas are created at the expense of a diversity program that benefits racial minorities.

Here is a report with the breakdown of the nationalities of foreign STEM graduates:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fas.org%2Fsgp%2Fcrs%2Fmisc%2FR42530.pdf&ei=qNC6UOzpB6WF0QHElIHABw&usg=AFQjCNGWzDFi69byGcMe0_M7lll_1aNXWw

So, unless according to you only Hispanics count as racial minorities, this bill would very much help minorities.

Hellsangel wrote:

panini press wrote:It is because the visas are created at the expense of a diversity program that benefits racial minorities.

Here is a report with the breakdown of the nationalities of foreign STEM graduates:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fas.org%2Fsgp%2Fcrs%2Fmisc%2FR42530.pdf&ei=qNC6UOzpB6WF0QHElIHABw&usg=AFQjCNGWzDFi69byGcMe0_M7lll_1aNXWw

So, unless according to you only Hispanics count as racial minorities, this bill would very much help minorities.

You are redefining minorities. Technically, the minorities are groups that have been wronged by the country and denied fair opportunities over decades or centuries.

The immigrants are not minorities in that sense. Once they come in ppl do claim minority status - a double whammy - which is contrary to the spirit of Equal employment principles.

I guess you support minority quota for muslims in India and Bengla illegals who are in Assam.

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

Hellsangel wrote:

panini press wrote:It is because the visas are created at the expense of a diversity program that benefits racial minorities.

Here is a report with the breakdown of the nationalities of foreign STEM graduates:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fas.org%2Fsgp%2Fcrs%2Fmisc%2FR42530.pdf&ei=qNC6UOzpB6WF0QHElIHABw&usg=AFQjCNGWzDFi69byGcMe0_M7lll_1aNXWw

So, unless according to you only Hispanics count as racial minorities, this bill would very much help minorities.

You are redefining minorities. Technically, the minorities are groups that have been wronged by the country and denied fair opportunities over decades or centuries.

The immigrants are not minorities in that sense. Once they come in ppl do claim minority status - a doube whammy - which is contrary to the spirit of Equal employment principles.

I guess you support minority quota for muslims in India and Bengla illegals who are in Assam.

Your holiness, you love to see everything through eyes clouded by hatred for Indian Muslims. That way even Hispanics are immigrants and a good number of them are illegal.

panini press wrote:It is because the visas are created at the expense of a diversity program that benefits racial minorities.

isn't the real driving force for democrats that these minorities(hispanics) vote democrat?

bw wrote:

panini press wrote:It is because the visas are created at the expense of a diversity program that benefits racial minorities.

isn't the real driving force for democrats that these minorities(hispanics) vote democrat?

There is another way to look at....

The majority of the young - especially, the college students - voted for Obama. The Dems can be seen as protecting the job market for this vote bank. But, the republicans would like to see the hispanic angle although they only had business profits in mind.

Indian muslim analogy has nothing to do with my views. Quotaism is quotaism, and I know you dont support quotas for muslims. and why this concern for foreign minorities?

Hispanics are slightly different from Messicans and central american although the "formula" is the same. While the US census bureau changes the definition every 10 years, the original history of hispanics is different and interesting:

One reason the assimilation of Hispanics in the U.S. is not comparable to that of other cultural groups is that Hispanic and Latino Americans
have been living in parts of North America for centuries, in many cases
well before the English-speaking culture became dominant. For example, California, Texas, Colorado, New Mexico (1598), Arizona, Nevada, Florida and Puerto Rico
have been home to Spanish-speaking peoples since the 16th century, long
before the U.S. existed. These and other Spanish-speaking territories
were part of the Viceroyalty of New Spain, and later Mexico
(with the exception of Florida and Puerto Rico), before these regions
joined or were taken over by the United States in 1848. Some cities in
the U.S. were founded by Spanish settlers as early as the 16th century,
prior to the creation of the Thirteen Colonies. For example, San Miguel de Galdape, Pensacola and St. Augustine, Florida were founded in 1526, 1559 and 1565 respectively. Santa Fe, New Mexico was founded in 1604, and Albuquerque was established in 1660. El Paso was founded in 1659, San Antonio in 1691, Laredo, Texas in 1755, San Diego in 1769, San Francisco in 1776, San Jose, California in 1777, and Los Angeles
in 1781. Therefore, in many parts of the U.S., the Hispanic cultural
legacy predates British influence. For this reason, many generations
have largely maintained their cultural traditions and Spanish language
well before the United States was created. However, Spanish-speaking
persons in many Hispanic areas in the U.S. amounted to only a few
thousand people when they became part of the United States; a large
majority of current Hispanic residents are descended from Hispanics who
entered the United States in the mid-to-late 20th and early 21st
centuries.

Language retention is a common index to assimilation; according to
the 2000 census, about 75 percent of all Hispanics spoke Spanish in the
home. Spanish language retention rates vary geographically; parts of
Texas and New Mexico have language retention rates over 90 percent,
whereas in parts of Colorado and California, retention rates are lower
than 30 percent. The degree of retention of Spanish as the native
language is based on recent arrival from countries where Spanish is
spoken. As is true of other immigrants, those who were born in other
countries still speak their native language. Later generations are
increasingly less likely to speak the language spoken in the country of
their ancestors, as is true of other immigrant groups.

Copied most of the above straight from wikipedia?

Because in dems eyes, thee are only two kinds of minorities: the kind that votes for them and the kind that votes for them. Remaining are either making too much money or are future racists.

it is inconsistent for someone who has been at the receiving end of affirmative action quotas in india and has therefore been opposed to it in india, to change positions because the political party they support in the US stands for affirmative action, whether it is in college admissions, government appointments, or immigration. despite my otherwise liberal politics, i stand opposed to affirmative action in all forms. the place to level the playing field is in K-12 education. band aid solutions after that do nothing to solve the underlying problems.

quite apart from this, the legal immigration policy of the US should be based on what makes best sense from the standpoint of its economic well being. all other considerations are secondary.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:it is inconsistent for someone who has been at the receiving end of affirmative action quotas in india and has therefore been opposed to it in india, to change positions because the political party they support in the US stands for affirmative action, whether it is in college admissions, government appointments, or immigration. despite my otherwise liberal politics, i stand opposed to affirmative action in all forms. the place to level the playing field is in K-12 education. band aid solutions after that do nothing to solve the underlying problems.

quite apart from this, the legal immigration policy of the US should be based on what makes best sense from the standpoint of its economic well being. all other considerations are secondary.

translation: now that we got the blacks and latinos to vote for our guy, let's slowly drift to the center-right to suit my narrow purposes and ideals. I'll slowly rediscover my inner conservative over the next year.

Hellsangel wrote:Copied most of the above straight from wikipedia?

Naww...it was all my own writing....

In Rashmunesque language I agree with what Wiki says and hence I quoted this...I never copied...

Propagandhi711 wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:it is inconsistent for someone who has been at the receiving end of affirmative action quotas in india and has therefore been opposed to it in india, to change positions because the political party they support in the US stands for affirmative action, whether it is in college admissions, government appointments, or immigration. despite my otherwise liberal politics, i stand opposed to affirmative action in all forms. the place to level the playing field is in K-12 education. band aid solutions after that do nothing to solve the underlying problems.

quite apart from this, the legal immigration policy of the US should be based on what makes best sense from the standpoint of its economic well being. all other considerations are secondary.

translation: now that we got the blacks and latinos to vote for our guy, let's slowly drift to the center-right to suit my narrow purposes and ideals. I'll slowly rediscover my inner conservative over the next year.

That is called politics... accept it.

One can say that the Reps with its Church going Christists vote bank in the bag is moving to center-left to get the votes of "minorities" from overseas....

Hellsangel wrote:

panini press wrote:It is because the visas are created at the expense of a diversity program that benefits racial minorities.

Really? Aren't many foreign STEM graduates minorities?

That's a non sequitur. There was no need for Congress to eliminate the diversity visa program while adding STEM visas. Removing the diversity visa program is what makes this bill unpleasant.

Propagandhi711 wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:it is inconsistent for someone who has been at the receiving end of affirmative action quotas in india and has therefore been opposed to it in india, to change positions because the political party they support in the US stands for affirmative action, whether it is in college admissions, government appointments, or immigration. despite my otherwise liberal politics, i stand opposed to affirmative action in all forms. the place to level the playing field is in K-12 education. band aid solutions after that do nothing to solve the underlying problems.

quite apart from this, the legal immigration policy of the US should be based on what makes best sense from the standpoint of its economic well being. all other considerations are secondary.

translation: now that we got the blacks and latinos to vote for our guy, let's slowly drift to the center-right to suit my narrow purposes and ideals. I'll slowly rediscover my inner conservative over the next year.

i think i've been fairly consistent in my opposition to affirmative action.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:the place to level the playing field is in K-12 education. band aid solutions after that do nothing to solve the underlying problems.

Whether it is India or the US, I don't believe in making the perfect the enemy of the good. For all the efforts that go into leveling the playing fied in K-12 education, it is a fact that the playing field is still not level as of 2012. Children of black and Hispanic ethnicity are more likely to attend underfunded, overcrowded schools in much of America today than their white or even Asian counterparts. I believe that affirmative action, like reservations, should go after, not before, that playing field is leveled.

Any and all forms of affirmative action programs in any country will lead to dumbing down the standards.

The focus should be on providing resources to the disadvantaged - tutoring, after school programs, and providing basic necessities.

Affirmative action per se is not bad. But, invariably they tend to be abused and misused. That is the disturbing part.