Caste based quotas in the light of Macaulay's report

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Caste based quotas in the light of Macaulay's report

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:54 am

Macaulay report refutes the caste basis for quotas (http://rivr.sulekha.com/macaulay-report-refutes-the-caste-basis-for-quotas_591797_blog)

<p>For more than sixty years since India’s Independence, there is a thinking among public and Govt. that ancestors of some Indians, designated now as OBC (Other Backward Castes) and SC/ST (Scheduled Castes / Scheduled Tribes), were deprived of education in Sanskrit and Vedas by brahmins (knowers of the Vedas and Sanskrit and practitioners of the priestly occupation) who supposedly were the ancestors of people belonging currently to the brahmin caste. It is thus the policy of Govt. since India’s Independence to grant benefits in the form of quotas and entitlements in education and jobs etc. (including admissions and stipends in colleges and the jobs and promotions afterwards) to people in OBC and SC/ST categories to help them “catch up” and be compensated for past “injustices” (lack of opportunity for their ancestors to learn Sanskrit and Vedas long ago). At the same time, as retribution perhaps, the Govt. denies similar benefits in education and jobs etc. to current brahmins (supposedly the descendents of ancient knowers and teachers of Sanskrit and Vedas) even if they may be poor and destitute.



As indicated in Ref. (1), the learning of Vedas and Sanskrit to get into the vocation of brahmin used to be very tedious and time consuming and required a monastic lifestyle for decades. The prospective student had to leave his home and parents at a very young age and go and live in a remote “gurukul” (school, often a hermitage) where he would be required to work hard not only in getting the education in Sanskrit and Vedas (usually orally, due to the lack of books) but also had to pay the guru (teacher) for his education through hard labor in gurukul and guru’s fields.



On the other hand, learning and pursuing other vocations (carpentry, farming, smithy, etc., designated now as OBC and SC etc. for Govt. benefits) used to be quite simple, easy and less time consuming. A young person wanting to become a farmer, for example, would just stay at home with parents and learn the trade (farming) from his parents or neighbors in just two or three years, while a would-be brahmin spent decades learning Sanskrit and Vedas away from home in a remote gurukul. In addition, a person becoming a brahmin at the ripe age of twenty five or thirty after spending decades in a remote gurukul trying to learn Sanskrit and the Vedas did not usually fare better financially afterwards, and in most cases would be worse off than a carpenter or a farmer who got into his profession full time at the age of fourteen or sixteen after just spending a few years learning the trade while staying at home.



Suffice to say, people (especially in non-brahmin castes or family occupations) generally avoided learning Sanskrit and Vedas in the past on their own and not because others (brahmin teachers for example) had denied them the opportunity to learn Sanskrit and the Vedas and become brahmins. Their choice to not learn Sanskrit and Vedas was due to practical and financial considerations. They did not see much advantage financially in the occupation of brahmin, especially after spending decades trying to learn Sanskrit and Vedas, mostly orally and in a remote gurukul. This basically left brahmins’ sons ending up pursuing their family (fathers’) occupation as brahmin, including going to and living in remote gurukuls for decades to learn Sanskrit and Vedas. Nevertheless, on a few occasions some non-brahmins also showed interest in learning Sanskrit and Vedas and becoming brahmins and they were not disappointed. In this regard, even the Sudras (e.g. Valmiki and Satyakama) received full training and education in Sanskrit and Vedas from their brahmin gurus, leading them to become brahmins and sages.



More than hundred and seventy five years ago, long before the current Indian Govt. is continuing through caste based quotas to “compensate” and have people “catch up” for missed opportunities to their ancestors to learn Sanskrit and Vedas long ago, Lord Macaulay in 1835 (Ref. 2, excerpts given below) noted that people in India did not consider the learning of Sanskrit (or Sanscrit) etc. as a financially advantageous venture and they would rather do or pursue something else.



“This is proved by the fact that we are forced to pay our …. Sanscrit students while those who learn English are willing to pay us. All the declamations in the world about the love and reverence of the natives for their sacred dialects will never, in the mind of any impartial person, outweigh this undisputed fact, that we cannot find in all our vast empire a single student who will let us teach him those dialects, unless we will pay him.” (Section 19, Ref. 2)



“Nothing is more certain than that it never can in any part of the world be necessary to pay men for doing what they think pleasant or profitable. India is no exception to this rule. The people of India do not require to be paid for eating rice when they are hungry, or for wearing woollen cloth in the cold season. To come nearer to the case before us: --The children who learn their letters and a little elementary arithmetic from the village schoolmaster are not paid by him. He is paid for teaching them. Why then is it necessary to pay people to learn Sanscrit….?” (Section 21, Ref. 2)



“…A petition was presented last year to the committee by several ex-students of the Sanscrit College. The petitioners stated that they had studied in the college ten or twelve years, that they had made themselves acquainted with Hindoo literature and science, that they had received certificates of proficiency. And what is the fruit of all this? "Notwithstanding such testimonials," they say, "we have but little prospect of bettering our condition without the kind assistance of your honourable committee, the indifference with which we are generally looked upon by our countrymen leaving no hope of encouragement and assistance from them." They therefore beg that they may be recommended to the Governor-General for places under the Government-- not places of high dignity or emolument, but such as may just enable them to exist. "We want means," they say, "for a decent living, and for our progressive improvement, which, however, we cannot obtain without the assistance of Government, by whom we have been educated and maintained from childhood." They conclude by representing very pathetically that they are sure that it was never the intention of Government, after behaving so liberally to them during their education, to abandon them to destitution and neglect….” (Section 22, Ref. 2)



There is no evidence according to the above that people in India were deprived by brahmins long ago of the opportunity to learn Sanskrit and Vedas and that further exposes the spurious Manusmriti (Ref. 3) about its “imaginary” restrictions on people to learn the Vedas. In reality, and according to Macaulay’s report in 1835 (Ref. 2), people seemed to have little interest in learning Sanskrit and Vedas, due mainly to a lengthy, tedious and time consuming initial effort and not much financial advantage later (in occupation as a brahmin). Moreover, in relation to the numbers of Brahmins these days, the overwhelming numbers of farmers, masons and carpenters etc. currently (in OBC and SC categories, supposedly representing the descendents of farmers, carpenters and blacksmiths etc. long ago) point to the fact that most people in the past had chosen on their own to pursue and stay in farming etc. and make a decent living that way, rather than risk their financial future by becoming a brahmin after learning Sanskrit and Vedas in a hard and time consuming way.



The present Indian Govt. therefore has no reason to deny benefits in education and jobs etc. to brahmins (especially the poor brahmins living near and below the poverty line / limit currently), while it continues to give benefits in education and jobs (as “compensation” and trying to “catch up”) to OBCs and SC/STs (even the rich and well-to-do OBCs and SC/STs) under the mistaken belief that their ancestors had missed the opportunity to learn Sanskrit and Vedas long ago. Needless to say, caste as the basis for helping people in education and jobs etc. (including to OBC and SC/ST) must be scrapped immediately. If there is any reason for Govt. to give assistance to people (including in education etc.), it should be done on the basis of recipient’s economic condition or poverty (poverty line or limit for example) and not his caste (ancestors’ occupation or name) or religion (where, how and to whom he prays).



Furthermore, as far as the issue of untouchability is concerned, that’s a matter requiring another approach and does not warrant the use of caste based quotas. As indicated in Ref. 4 (Appendix), the problem of untouchability should be tackled by taking care of poverty directly (without the consideration of caste) and by creating respect and acceptability in society for manual, menial and lowly tasks. Note, people (“untouchables” and others) end up basically being excluded from the mainstream in society because they are poor who have to do all kind of jobs to survive, which others (especially the well-to-do) don’t want to do. The best solution for this is for Govt. and others to help poor people according to their economic condition (or poverty) and not on the basis of their caste or religion.



Similarly, the work performed by poor people (including the untouchables), in spite of being manual and menial and considered lowly, is very important to society. The well-to-do and “important” people generally try to shy away from manual and menial work and shun those doing it. The effective solution to end this problem is to bring changes in attitude in society so that people don’t mind doing lowly tasks. This can be achieved if important people in society, including ministers, politicians, leaders, officials etc., carry out public demonstrations using the media (TV news etc.) where they are shown cleaning the toilets and washrooms and sweeping the roads and streets. That will quickly end taboos related to manual, menial and lowly tasks and stop discrimination according to occupations (including towards people doing lowly tasks).



References


(1) Subhash C. Sharma, “Caste through the sands of time,” March 16, 2010,

http://seva.sulekha.com/blog/post/2010/03/caste-through-the-sands-of-time.htm



(2) “Minute by the Hon'ble Thomas Babington Macaulay, dated the 2nd February 1835,” http://www.mssu.edu/projectsouthasia/history/primarydocs/education/Macaulay001.htm

or,

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00generallinks/macaulay/txt_minute_education_1835.html



(3) Subhash C. Sharma, “Manusmriti -- the book that contradicts the Vedas and itself,” April 23, 2010,

http://lamberdar.sulekha.com/blog/post/2010/04/manusmriti-the-book-that-contradicts-the-vedas.htm



(4) Subhash C. Sharma, “Some questions (comments) related to Hindu caste system,” Jan. 25, 2011, http://hubpages.com/hub/comments_responses-caste_system





by: Dr. Subhash C. Sharma

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Re: Caste based quotas in the light of Macaulay's report

Post by rawemotions on Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:33 am

Don't you think that given all the threats Hindus faced in the past and future, all religious heads should come together and outlaw this stupidity where cultural differences are magnified as caste differences to call one as inferior , one as superior etc... The SNDP / NSS unity in Kerala is a great start , but can it sustain with trouble makers trying to derail this unity. Let us hope it spreads throughout India among all Hindus.

These differences among class/culture now masquerade as Caste differences to create disunity among Hindus, especially by Media.

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Re: Caste based quotas in the light of Macaulay's report

Post by truthbetold on Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:37 am

Seva,
Welcome to such.
Your long post(or some sort of blog) distorts facts and fights them on fictional grounds. Few examples:
1. Constitution reserves a certain portion of college seats for certain historically disadvantaged castes. This is achieved by govt investing money in education to create that extra space.
2. The percent of Brahmins educated is much higher today than at any other time in history. The percentage of Brahmins continues to be disproportionately higher wrt their population in education, govt civil services, central govt office and private executive employment.
3. The percentage of gainfully employed Brahmins is larger than any other caste across India.
4. No where, I repeat, no where were Brahmins were prevented from seeking govt seats. It is a lie to say that Brahmins were denied opportunity. It is a distortion of facts to claim the extra seats invested by govt for reservation are denied to Brahmins. They gain of reservation seats is not a loss to Brahmins.
5. Brahmins were not treated any differently than all other forward castes which include even larger section of sudras.

Brahmins of India have been the most successful caste in India and around the world. Stop whining. Get facts right.

All of the above does not imply Brahmins do not have problems. Who does not?



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Re: Caste based quotas in the light of Macaulay's report

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:21 am

rawemotions wrote:
These differences among class/culture now masquerade as Caste differences to create disunity among Hindus, especially by Media.

RW, as long as Govt. keeps on issuing quotas based on caste for the sake of votes, there is no way to get rid of caste and casteism in society.

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Re: Caste based quotas in the light of Macaulay's report

Post by Idéfix on Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:24 am

truthbetold wrote:Seva,
Welcome to such.
Your long post(or some sort of blog) distorts facts and fights them on fictional grounds. Few examples:
1. Constitution reserves a certain portion of college seats for certain historically disadvantaged castes. This is achieved by govt investing money in education to create that extra space.
2. The percent of Brahmins educated is much higher today than at any other time in history. The percentage of Brahmins continues to be disproportionately higher wrt their population in education, govt civil services, central govt office and private executive employment.
3. The percentage of gainfully employed Brahmins is larger than any other caste across India.
4. No where, I repeat, no where were Brahmins were prevented from seeking govt seats. It is a lie to say that Brahmins were denied opportunity. It is a distortion of facts to claim the extra seats invested by govt for reservation are denied to Brahmins. They gain of reservation seats is not a loss to Brahmins.
5. Brahmins were not treated any differently than all other forward castes which include even larger section of sudras.

Brahmins of India have been the most successful caste in India and around the world. Stop whining. Get facts right.

All of the above does not imply Brahmins do not have problems. Who does not?


+1

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Re: Caste based quotas in the light of Macaulay's report

Post by Vakavaka Pakapaka on Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:30 am

truthbetold wrote:Seva,
Welcome to such.
Your long post(or some sort of blog) distorts facts and fights them on fictional grounds. Few examples:
1. Constitution reserves a certain portion of college seats for certain historically disadvantaged castes. This is achieved by govt investing money in education to create that extra space.
2. The percent of Brahmins educated is much higher today than at any other time in history. The percentage of Brahmins continues to be disproportionately higher wrt their population in education, govt civil services, central govt office and private executive employment.
3. The percentage of gainfully employed Brahmins is larger than any other caste across India.
4. No where, I repeat, no where were Brahmins were prevented from seeking govt seats. It is a lie to say that Brahmins were denied opportunity. It is a distortion of facts to claim the extra seats invested by govt for reservation are denied to Brahmins. They gain of reservation seats is not a loss to Brahmins.
5. Brahmins were not treated any differently than all other forward castes which include even larger section of sudras.

Brahmins of India have been the most successful caste in India and around the world. Stop whining. Get facts right.

All of the above does not imply Brahmins do not have problems. Who does not?



How about joining the Republican party in the South and analyzing how Indo-Americans and Latinos are harming the economy?

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Re: Caste based quotas in the light of Macaulay's report

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:43 am

truthbetold wrote:Seva,
Welcome to such.

Thanks TBT

Listed below are responses to your questions.

1. "Constitution reserves a certain portion of college seats for certain historically disadvantaged castes. This is achieved by govt investing money in education to create that extra space."TBT

Response. That’s a joke and height of silliness, especially to think that people working with hands or doing manual work are disadvantaged people or caste.

Moreover, to give these people officially the status of historically disadvantaged (castes etc.) according to the Constitution implies that Indians should aspire only for the jobs where they don’t have to lift a finger (such as in offices etc.).

No wonder the roads, streets, public buildings, trains etc. (especially their washrooms) in the country remain usually dirty and not maintained properly. It seems people officially are trying to get away from the disadvantageous occupations with Govt. help. Here is more on this topic, [url=http://rivr.sulekha.com/mistaking-workers-as-dalits-and-milking-the-holey-manusmriti_492399_blog]http://rivr.sulekha.com/mistaking-workers-as-dalits-and-milking-the-holey-manusmriti_492399_blog[/url]

2. "The percent of Brahmins educated is much higher today than at any other time in history. The percentage of Brahmins continues to be disproportionately higher wrt their population in education, govt civil services, central govt office and private executive employment."TBT

Response. It is not wise to conduct surveys and count people to find out as to in which communities people are better educated and have more jobs and then have the Govt. pass laws to keep those communities out of education privileges and jobs?

The appropriate thing instead would be to explore the reasons as to why people in certain communities on their own are better able to educate their children and make them capable of getting good jobs.

The obvious answer (irrespective of caste and religion) is that people and families which usually are monogamous and have less number of children (1 or 2 per family) are able to raise their children better, giving them higher education making them able to get good jobs. Needless to say, these people (whether Brahmins or others, having smaller families and less number of children and representing smaller percentage of the total population) have a greater share of better jobs than others (people with large families and more number of children). But this is all due to parents with smaller families and less number of children being able to care for their family and children better rather than due to their caste.

Anyway, it’s no use for parents to grumble about others if their kids lag behind because they were unable to take proper care of them and give a better education due to their large sized families (more kids etc. than they could afford). Regarding the attitude of Govt. on this issue, it probably is happy to get more votes from people with larger families requiring Govt. help.

In any case, no Govt. help or quotas can solve this problem unless people don’t start having smaller families and less number of children (1 or 2 per family) which they can easily afford and educate etc. properly.

3. "The percentage of gainfully employed Brahmins is larger than any other caste across India." TBT

Response: That’s because Brahmins probably have smaller sized families and less number of children which they can easily afford and educate. There is a lesson / example here to others – start having smaller families and less number of children.

(4) "No where, I repeat, no where were Brahmins were prevented from seeking govt seats. It is a lie to say that Brahmins were denied opportunity. It is a distortion of facts to claim the extra seats invested by govt for reservation are denied to Brahmins. They gain of reservation seats is not a loss to Brahmins." TBT

Response: If 50% to 60% seats are reserved in colleges and jobs to certain castes that means others (Brahmins etc.) will be denied the opportunity to compete for those seats (including jobs) on the basis of ability and qualification. That is basically prevention and loss.

5. "Brahmins were not treated any differently than all other forward castes which include even larger section of sudras." TBT

Response: There is only one way for the Govt. to deal with this issue. Govt. ministers and high officials, instead of issuing caste based quotas, should hold public demonstrations where they sweep the roads and streets and clean the toilets and urinals. This will add respect for the manual work and workers, put an end to caste and casteism, and help maintain the environment (including roads toilets etc.) cleaner.

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Re: Caste based quotas in the light of Macaulay's report

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:25 am

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Seva,
Welcome to such.

In any case, no Govt. help or quotas can solve this problem unless people don’t start having smaller families and less number of children (1 or 2 per family) which they can easily afford and educate etc. properly.

The above statement should read as "In any case, no Govt. help or quotas can solve this problem unless people start having smaller families and less number of children (1 or 2 per family) which they can easily afford and educate etc. properly."



Note also that when farmers and smiths etc. (working with hands and engaged in manual occupations) are considered as historically disadvantageous people according to the Constitution to qualify for Govt . quotas in education and jobs as OBC and SC etc, the implication officially is that people need to get out of these disadvantageous occupations and nobody should pursue farming etc. What nonsense!

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Re: Caste based quotas in the light of Macaulay's report

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:50 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Note also that when farmers and smiths etc. (working with hands and engaged in manual occupations) are considered as historically disadvantaged people according to the Constitution to qualify for Govt . quotas in education and jobs as OBC and SC etc, the implication officially is that people need to get out of these disadvantageous occupations and nobody should pursue farming etc. What nonsense!

Naturally, there are other manual occupations which are also important to the society. It’s silly to consider people working in them as disadvantaged and that too officially (on the basis of Constitution). Here is more on this topic,

Aiding the society as a janitor (bhangi)-- http://www.geocities.ws/lamberdar/dalit.html

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Re: Caste based quotas in the light of Macaulay's report

Post by truthbetold on Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:11 pm

Seva,
The earliest I can find time to respond is coming weekend. In the meanwhile can you write some 5 sentence max posts. Some of us access this forum on mobile. At your current length of posts you will exhaust data limits in a jiffy.

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Re: Caste based quotas in the light of Macaulay's report

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:31 am

truthbetold wrote:Seva,
The earliest I can find time to respond is coming weekend. In the meanwhile can you write some 5 sentence max posts. Some of us access this forum on mobile. At your current length of posts you will exhaust data limits in a jiffy.

Okay TBT, here are 5 sentences.

(1) The caste basis for quotas in education and jobs is wrong, because any help to people from Govt. should be according to economic necessity or poverty and not in terms of caste or religion.

(2) The assumption that some people (needing now quotas in education and jobs) were historically deprived (by the Brahmins) the opportunity to get education in Sanskrit and Vedas long ago is wrong, as indicated by Macaulay’s report 175 years ago.

(3) In reality, as implied by (2) above, people (non-brahmins and Brahmins) long ago were pursuing other occupations (e.g. farming, carpentry etc.) because they were easier to get into initially (such as learn, train and continue as a family tradition) and had better economic and other rewards later (such as income and family stability), instead of trying hard and long to learn Sanskrit and Vedas to become brahmin which did not lead to much financial security and improvement after spending enormously lengthy and difficult effort.

(4) This means that there is no reason now for Govt. to leave some people (the so called Brahmins etc.) out of quotas (in education and jobs), especially if they are economically not well-off.

(5) The issue of untouchability will be resolved by getting rid of the casteist quotas (which basically add to more casteism in society) and if people in high places and jobs (including ministers, officials and public leaders) start giving public demonstrations which show them participating in sweeping the roads / streets and cleaning the toilets / urinals.


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Re: Caste based quotas in the light of Macaulay's report

Post by Idéfix on Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:28 am

Sevaji, of all your delusions, I personally like item 5 best.

"The issue of untouchability will be resolved by getting rid of the casteist quotas (which basically add to more casteism in society) and if people in high places and jobs (including ministers, officials and public leaders) start giving public demonstrations which show them participating in sweeping the roads / streets and cleaning the toilets / urinals."


It sounds, from your extensive research, that "the issue of untouchability" was caused by quotas. Congratulations.

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Re: Caste based quotas in the light of Macaulay's report

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:12 pm

panini press wrote:
It sounds, from your extensive research, that "the issue of untouchability" was caused by quotas. Congratulations.

Not quite.

The problem with quotas based on caste is that they are not reducing casteism but instead fueling more casteist feelings in society. Even those receiving the caste based benefits in education and jobs seem to show no interest in getting rid of castes (read low caste tags), probably for the sake of continuation of caste quotas. Here is more on this, "Caste exploitation and what can dalits do to stop it?" ... http://rivr.sulekha.com/caste-exploitation-and-what-can-dalits-do-to-stop-it_473412_blog

Regarding the issue of untouchability, take a look into the following (Appendix especially) -- "Some questions (comments) related to Hindu caste system" ... http://lamberdar.hubpages.com/hub/comments_responses-caste_system

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Re: Caste based quotas in the light of Macaulay's report

Post by truthbetold on Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:15 pm

Sevaji,
Here is a short response?why should govt help people who are economically weak? It is of their own choosing they chose professions to keep them poor.

Why is untouchability existing in Hinduism? Why can't a Brahmin eat with a sc/st?

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Re: Caste based quotas in the light of Macaulay's report

Post by truthbetold on Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:21 pm

Sevaji,
Govt of India is an elected body. Majority of Indians are sc/st and bcs. Their elected leaders legally legislated and implemented reservations. It is govt's job to make those decisions and allocate money to back them up.

When you got power in the past centuries you did what pleased you. Now the shoe is on the other foot.

Present an argument to the elected govt of sc/ st/bcs to vote against themselves and give up reservations.

More later.

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Re: Caste based quotas in the light of Macaulay's report

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:02 am

(1) “Here is a short response?why should govt help people who are economically weak? It is of their own choosing they chose professions to keep them poor. Why is untouchability existing in Hinduism? Why can't a Brahmin eat with a sc/st?” TBT



(2) Govt of India is an elected body. Majority of Indians are sc/st and bcs. Their elected leaders legally legislated and implemented reservations. It is govt's job to make those decisions and allocate money to back them up. When you got power in the past centuries you did what pleased you. Now the shoe is on the other foot.
Present an argument to the elected govt of sc/ st/bcs to vote against themselves and give up reservations.” TBT




Response (by Seva): It seems you first need to read this article carefully.

That also is the reason for Govt. to help people in education etc. on the basis of poverty (economic necessity) ad not on the basis of caste or religion. Please read this article carefully, including my earlier responses (references) to Panini Press in the following.

“The problem with quotas based on caste is that they are not reducing casteism but instead fueling more casteist feelings in society. Even those receiving the caste based benefits in education and jobs seem to show no interest in getting rid of castes (read low caste tags), probably for the sake of continuation of caste quotas. Here is more on this, "Caste exploitation and what can dalits do to stop it?" ... http://rivr.sulekha.com/caste-exploitation-and-what-can-dalits-do-to-stop-it_473412_blog

Regarding the issue of untouchability, take a look into the following (Appendix especially) -- "
Some questions (comments) related to Hindu caste system" ... http://lamberdar.hubpages.com/hub/comments_responses-caste_system

Anyway, regarding the way Govt. / Parliament, in spite of being elected one, acts sometimes, you can read the following.

“Parliamentary faux pas” …. dated: Aug. 26, 2011): http://lamberdar.hubpages.com/hub/parliamentary_faux_pas

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Re: Caste based quotas in the light of Macaulay's report

Post by Sponsored content Today at 10:13 pm


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