Re: Beijing sways to Bharatanatyam

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:26 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i am not going to get into pseudo-polemical discussions with an individual who clearly has some kind of agenda and has displayed signs of becoming unstable from time to time, but i think it might be useful for the rest of the audience following this thread to amplify some of what i said earlier.

the point is, it is quite possible that some basic elements of BN may have come from the natyashastra which presumably was authored by a kashmiri, but it is quite a different matter to claim that BN was invented by kashmiris. saying that is the same as saying the wheel was invented somewhere in the central asian steppes, so the automobile was invented in the steppes.

as time scales go, formal BN is not very old. the folks responsible for codifying the art, formalizing its structure and rhythmic movements (adavus), formalizing a recital structure, and shaping its aesthetic elements were four brothers who today are collectively known as the tanjore quartet. performers and scholars who study BN consider these four as the authors of the art form itself.

here is a short article about the life and times of the brothers and the house they lived in (incidentally the brothers called the dance sathir). as i explained before, the appellation BN came in the 19th century from tambrahms.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Tiruchirapalli/article437551.ece

The ancient temples of TN have sculptures of women in postures which are easily identifiable as being part of BN. When the tamil student Madhuraja went to Kashmir and became a student of the great Kashmiri scholar Abhinavagupta he records music and dancing in the vicinity of Abhinavagupta's residence. It is tempting to speculate that the dancing seen by Madhuraja must have been a variant of BN because Abhinavagupta had written a major commentary on the Naatya Shastra and was clearly familiar with the classical dancing whose roots began with the Naatya Shastra of Bharatha Muni.

The wheel --> automobile example is baseless. The rules for the development of technology do not apply to the art forms. We do not say that the writings of Kalidasa should be compared to the wheel, and that of Subramania Bharati should be compared to the automobile.

I think i am going to write a blog on this topic. Max, i will be mentioning you in the Acknowledgement section. I hope you will not mind.

if this is of the seva variety of acknowledgment where you say something i've said and use it feed some of your own crackpot theories, then no. if you cite me (i understand it's only a handle, but still), i'd like you to cite me verbatim and state honestly that i do not agree with you. as for the subject matter of this discussion itself, i refuse to engage with you because i do not think you have honest intentions, but an agenda. i will not respond to agendas.

I agree with many of the things you say. For instance, i agree with you that there are sculptures of women in postures which are easily identifiable as being part of BN in various temples in TN including some ancient temples.

by Hellsangel Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:27 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

i don't know the meaning of sathir.

http://sangam.org/articles/view/?id=22

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:33 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

i don't know the meaning of sathir.

http://sangam.org/articles/view/?id=22

thanks. i had completely forgotten about krishna iyer. the silappadikaram mention is interesting although it was probably not as formalized as it became in the post TQ period.

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:34 pm

The Nataraja temple at Chidambaram marks the next phase in such sculptural codification. The four gopurams were built during the course of three centuries, 13th to 16th. All the 108 figures are beautifully carved in the entrance of these gopurams. The eastern and western gopurams arc particularly important as they have the inscriptions in Tamil Grantha script which are transliterations of Bharata’s text pertaining to each karanam. This was the first and perhaps the last time too that the karanas were carved with their sütras inscribed in full. It is evident that these were not mere architectural embellishments, but they were to guide the dance enthusiasts with regard to Bharata’s work. It is really amazing that the work of the scholarly sage of Kashmir had been transplanted in Tamil soil so effectively without any linguistic, political or geographic barrier. This clearly shows the spirit of assimilation of the Tamils to imbibe and foster all that is best....

The dance sculptures not only reveal the origin and evolution of the art in Tamilnad, but also show that the Tamils were free from all linguistic inhibitions in their endless quest for knowledge. They derived inspiration not only from Tamil but also from Sanskrit sources for the development of their culture. Treatises on all arts written in Sanskrit were in the normal course absorbed and preserved in Tamilnad. Translations and abridged editions arose in Tamil.

The earliest extant literature on dramaturgy is said to be the Natya Sastra by sage Bharata. (3) All the works that came to be written on dance in the post Bharata period had the influence of the Natya Sastra. Cilappatikaram is no exception to this.(4) The very titles, Bharatasenapatiyam (5) and Pancabharatiyam (6) mentioned as Tamil works in the commentary of Adiyarkunallar prove the recognition that Bharata enjoyed in Tamil country. All these works deal with the theory of dance; the practical aspect is seen in the sculpture of Tamilnad.

The association of the various Gods with dance made it necessary for the sculptor to study the Natyasastra before depicting these deities in stone. This knowledge was one of the main factors that contributed to the refinement of sculpture. The presence of an accomplished nartaki - the dancer - attached to the temple induced the sculpture to create dance sculptures. In turn, such sculptures remain as everlasting guides for successive generations of dance enthusiasts. They served to codify and preserve the art for all time. Among such closely inter-related creations, benefiting each other, the most important is the karanam in the field of dance and sculpture. It is a matter of pride for Tamilnad that it has been able to preserve in pristine purity the Kashmiriyan sage, Bharata’s style of dance in the form of sculpture. Though there are dance sculptures all over India, such close adherence to the Bharata tradition cannot be seen anywhere else.

http://bharatanatyam.voila.net/Karana.html

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:38 pm

Rashmun wrote:The Nataraja temple at Chidambaram marks the next phase in such sculptural codification. The four gopurams were built during the course of three centuries, 13th to 16th. All the 108 figures are beautifully carved in the entrance of these gopurams. The eastern and western gopurams arc particularly important as they have the inscriptions in Tamil Grantha script which are transliterations of Bharata’s text pertaining to each karanam. This was the first and perhaps the last time too that the karanas were carved with their sütras inscribed in full. It is evident that these were not mere architectural embellishments, but they were to guide the dance enthusiasts with regard to Bharata’s work. It is really amazing that the work of the scholarly sage of Kashmir had been transplanted in Tamil soil so effectively without any linguistic, political or geographic barrier. This clearly shows the spirit of assimilation of the Tamils to imbibe and foster all that is best....

The dance sculptures not only reveal the origin and evolution of the art in Tamilnad, but also show that the Tamils were free from all linguistic inhibitions in their endless quest for knowledge. They derived inspiration not only from Tamil but also from Sanskrit sources for the development of their culture. Treatises on all arts written in Sanskrit were in the normal course absorbed and preserved in Tamilnad. Translations and abridged editions arose in Tamil.

The earliest extant literature on dramaturgy is said to be the Natya Sastra by sage Bharata. (3) All the works that came to be written on dance in the post Bharata period had the influence of the Natya Sastra. Cilappatikaram is no exception to this.(4) The very titles, Bharatasenapatiyam (5) and Pancabharatiyam (6) mentioned as Tamil works in the commentary of Adiyarkunallar prove the recognition that Bharata enjoyed in Tamil country. All these works deal with the theory of dance; the practical aspect is seen in the sculpture of Tamilnad.

The association of the various Gods with dance made it necessary for the sculptor to study the Natyasastra before depicting these deities in stone. This knowledge was one of the main factors that contributed to the refinement of sculpture. The presence of an accomplished nartaki - the dancer - attached to the temple induced the sculpture to create dance sculptures. In turn, such sculptures remain as everlasting guides for successive generations of dance enthusiasts. They served to codify and preserve the art for all time. Among such closely inter-related creations, benefiting each other, the most important is the karanam in the field of dance and sculpture. It is a matter of pride for Tamilnad that it has been able to preserve in pristine purity the Kashmiriyan sage, Bharata’s style of dance in the form of sculpture. Though there are dance sculptures all over India, such close adherence to the Bharata tradition cannot be seen anywhere else.

http://bharatanatyam.voila.net/Karana.html

Apart from the literary evidence for the popularity of Bharata’s karanams, the dance sculptures in the temples of Tamilnad prove beyond doubt that the Tamils took great pains in preserving Bharata’s style. Just as the earliest extant literature on karanas is the Natya Sastra, the earliest extant visual representation of these are found in the Brhadiswara temple at Tanjore. The credit of identifying them as Bharata’s karanas goes to Padmabhushan Dr. T. N. Ramachandran, the eminent archeologist. When the Chola king Rajaraja built the Tanjore temple in the beginning of the 11th century, dance art enjoyed such a high status in society that he had the karana figures chiselled as sculptures in the first tier of the Vimana.

Natya Sastra was already about a 1000 years old during Rajaraja’s time. It is quite possible that the karanas were developing on new lines, some of them even becoming obsolete; it was his genius that gave immortality to Bharata’s karanas by such sculptural codification. Thus we owe a deep debt of gratitude to the Chola Emperor for this service in the cause of dance art.
The karana figures in Tanjore are about two feet in height and are found one after the other in a serial order as prescribed by Bharata. Starting from talapuspaputam, there are only 81 figures found. Slabs for the rest are found left incomplete. But it is beyond doubt that each sculpture has been carved after a deep understanding of the description of the relevant karanas as found in Natya Sastra as well as its commentary the Abhinavabharati, written by Abhinavagupta.

http://bharatanatyam.voila.net/Karana.html

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:46 pm

Rashmun wrote:
Rashmun wrote:The Nataraja temple at Chidambaram marks the next phase in such sculptural codification. The four gopurams were built during the course of three centuries, 13th to 16th. All the 108 figures are beautifully carved in the entrance of these gopurams. The eastern and western gopurams arc particularly important as they have the inscriptions in Tamil Grantha script which are transliterations of Bharata’s text pertaining to each karanam. This was the first and perhaps the last time too that the karanas were carved with their sütras inscribed in full. It is evident that these were not mere architectural embellishments, but they were to guide the dance enthusiasts with regard to Bharata’s work. It is really amazing that the work of the scholarly sage of Kashmir had been transplanted in Tamil soil so effectively without any linguistic, political or geographic barrier. This clearly shows the spirit of assimilation of the Tamils to imbibe and foster all that is best....

The dance sculptures not only reveal the origin and evolution of the art in Tamilnad, but also show that the Tamils were free from all linguistic inhibitions in their endless quest for knowledge. They derived inspiration not only from Tamil but also from Sanskrit sources for the development of their culture. Treatises on all arts written in Sanskrit were in the normal course absorbed and preserved in Tamilnad. Translations and abridged editions arose in Tamil.

The earliest extant literature on dramaturgy is said to be the Natya Sastra by sage Bharata. (3) All the works that came to be written on dance in the post Bharata period had the influence of the Natya Sastra. Cilappatikaram is no exception to this.(4) The very titles, Bharatasenapatiyam (5) and Pancabharatiyam (6) mentioned as Tamil works in the commentary of Adiyarkunallar prove the recognition that Bharata enjoyed in Tamil country. All these works deal with the theory of dance; the practical aspect is seen in the sculpture of Tamilnad.

The association of the various Gods with dance made it necessary for the sculptor to study the Natyasastra before depicting these deities in stone. This knowledge was one of the main factors that contributed to the refinement of sculpture. The presence of an accomplished nartaki - the dancer - attached to the temple induced the sculpture to create dance sculptures. In turn, such sculptures remain as everlasting guides for successive generations of dance enthusiasts. They served to codify and preserve the art for all time. Among such closely inter-related creations, benefiting each other, the most important is the karanam in the field of dance and sculpture. It is a matter of pride for Tamilnad that it has been able to preserve in pristine purity the Kashmiriyan sage, Bharata’s style of dance in the form of sculpture. Though there are dance sculptures all over India, such close adherence to the Bharata tradition cannot be seen anywhere else.

http://bharatanatyam.voila.net/Karana.html

Apart from the literary evidence for the popularity of Bharata’s karanams, the dance sculptures in the temples of Tamilnad prove beyond doubt that the Tamils took great pains in preserving Bharata’s style. Just as the earliest extant literature on karanas is the Natya Sastra, the earliest extant visual representation of these are found in the Brhadiswara temple at Tanjore. The credit of identifying them as Bharata’s karanas goes to Padmabhushan Dr. T. N. Ramachandran, the eminent archeologist. When the Chola king Rajaraja built the Tanjore temple in the beginning of the 11th century, dance art enjoyed such a high status in society that he had the karana figures chiselled as sculptures in the first tier of the Vimana.

Natya Sastra was already about a 1000 years old during Rajaraja’s time. It is quite possible that the karanas were developing on new lines, some of them even becoming obsolete; it was his genius that gave immortality to Bharata’s karanas by such sculptural codification. Thus we owe a deep debt of gratitude to the Chola Emperor for this service in the cause of dance art.
The karana figures in Tanjore are about two feet in height and are found one after the other in a serial order as prescribed by Bharata. Starting from talapuspaputam, there are only 81 figures found. Slabs for the rest are found left incomplete. But it is beyond doubt that each sculpture has been carved after a deep understanding of the description of the relevant karanas as found in Natya Sastra as well as its commentary the Abhinavabharati, written by Abhinavagupta.

http://bharatanatyam.voila.net/Karana.html

A comparison of the karana figures in the three temples is an interesting study. In Tanjore, there is no inscriptional explanation; in Kumbakonam, we see the respective names of karanas below each figure. The high water mark is reached in Chidambaram, where the whole sütras of Bharata have been inscribed with the corresponding figures. The Tanjore figures depict Siva with four arms; in Kumbakonam the figures are those of Sutraddra as can be inferred from the label inscribed therein. The sculptures here are said to be older than the present gopuram wherein they might have been fixed subsequently. In Chidambaram, we find female figures in the form of ardhasirpas, strictly following the serial order of Bharata’s work.

http://bharatanatyam.voila.net/Karana.html

by FluteHolder Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:33 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

i don't know the meaning of sathir.

http://sangam.org/articles/view/?id=22

His third novel, Thiru Kaalangalil Sathir, awaits release. Arvind is almost anticipating the inevitable question — the curious titling of his novels. “ Thiru signifies a mix of the sacred and the profane; Sathir means a cosmic dance, where all of art begins. It is everything I'd like to invoke in my work.”

Found the above from the following link. Not sure how accurate that is..
http://www.hindu.com/mp/2010/02/22/stories/2010022251050500.htm

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:35 pm

Of course, Bharata's Natya-Shastra written between A.D. 100-300 is the earliest encyclopaedic work on aesthetics-drama, dance, music and poetics- but the best known commentry on the Natya-Shastra has been that of the great scholar Abhinava Gupta (A.D. 950-1025) of Kashmir who discusses the theories of drama, dance and music. Abhinava Gupta of the Shaiva philosophy fame was a prolific writer who authored forty-one books. Eleventh century Kashmir also produced Kashemendra, the Titan of drama and also a geographer, historian, novelist, short-story writer, satirist, wit, all sewn in one skill....

The sculptures found in the entire North Western region whether of bronze, stone, terra-cota or wood testify to its Hindu-Buddhist thought since the hoary past. The function of each form of Hindu art is to generate 'Rasa'. Drama, architecture, arid sculpture therefore flourished in Kashmir and North West side by side. 'Rasa' being the prime factor in Indian art, one can safely say that Indian drama has grown independently of Greek influence, which due to the element of conflict agitates and ruffles emotions.

Being the frontier post, Kashmir had access to draw from artistic heritage of Guptas, Kushanas, Turks, Romans, Chincse, Chauhans and others till it reached its zenith during the period of Lalitaditiya (A.D. 800). This mightly king built hundreds of temples in Kashmir and North West and decorated these with thousands of sculptures of various metals besides stone including terracota and wood. The world-wonder Sun Temple that he built at Martand (A.D. 800) is a unique example of architecture. Ruins of this temple testify even today to its majesticity, vibrant verticularity, masculinity of pillars and artistic grandios.

The improvization and ornamentation of Rangmandpas also developed alongwith temple architecture mainly because both the architects and 'Mahagunies' (Writer-Directors) of reportoirs, attached with palaces and temples and on pay rolls of the state could freely exchange thoughts with each other.

In A.D. 900 King Avantiverman built another world-wonder, the 100' high Avantiswami temple at Bijbehara. This temple, like the Sun Temple, is also in ruins now, but the ruins speak of its sophistication, elegance, and matured artistic vision.

http://ikashmir.net/koshursamachar/architecture.html

------
I wish to know whether the Sun temple, the Avantiswami temple or other temples of Kashmir had images of people depicting postures described in the Naatya Shastra like those found in many of the temples in TN.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:03 pm

What kinds of innovation really took place in 1930s? Although I have been
using the term, BharataNatyam in this article, it was not the name used
for the dance form performed at temples.This was called Sadir dance,
DasiAttam literally meaning devadasi's dance, or cinna melam,a small
ensemble.

It was only about sixty years ago when the name,
BharataNatyam began to be used. But it is strange to me that we do not
know exactly by whom and when the name actually was first used. V.
Ramasubramaniam wrote that the term 'was coined first by Mr. E. Krishna
Iyer in the twenties of this century to fortify himself by the use of
the honoured but mythical name of Bharata, the author of the
Natya-sastra and it has stuck on through all these decades.

source:

"Bharata Nāṭyam", Rebirth of Dance in India
Author(s): Kimiko Ohtani
Reviewed work(s):Source: Studia Musicologica Academiae Scientiarum Hungaricae, T. 33, Fasc. 1/4 (1991), pp. 301-308

you can get it from JSTOR if you have access to a university library. there is a lot more detail where that came from, but obviously i can't post the article in its entirety without violating copyright.

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:03 pm

The Surya Martand temple, dedicated to Lord Bhaskar the Sun God, also known as Martandeshwar Mandir, is the most outstanding architectural achievement of Lalitaditya, which bears testimony of the marvellous building skills of the ancient Hindu architects of Kashmir. Situated approximately 5 kms from the ancient town of AnantNag, the Surya Martand temple was built in picturesque surroundings of vast snow capped mountains, orchards and streams, on top of a plateau, known as Mattan Wudar, overlooking a magnificent view of the Kashmir valley for miles. Its picturesque situation at the foot of a mountain on a Kerewa bed enhances it grandeur.

Vedic Kashmiri kings were known to choose sublime areas whenever constructing their fabulous temples, in an environment that encouraged Man and nature to worship the Supreme in harmony. Lalitaditya too followed his predecessors when choosing this most divine site for his temple dedicated to his patron God Surya. Though today it is in ruins, the remnants of this temple still exhibit the splendour of what once was a great Vedic pilgrimage centre, a grande temple structure built of blocks of blue limestone, held together with iron bolts with joints of mortar and steel dowels, where classical temple dancers danced recitals of sanskrit compositions choreographed with Bharat Muni's 108 Karanas to the lyrical music of the Vedic musicians during important Hindu festivals, it was a sacred place of Vedic worship where ancient Hindu kings held auspicious Yagya ceremonies officiated under numerous Brahmin priests, making Martand temple one that was second to no other structure found anywhere upon Earth, but that which inspired generations of Greeks as well as Scythians, to adopt its marvellous style of architecture in order to construct their own temples dedicated to their Pagan Gods.

The hamlet of Mattan which had been of great religious importance to the Hindus all over India had been traditionally known as the 'Surya tirth', a place of pilgrimage of on way to the Amarnath cave of Lord Shiva. Kalhana describes the construction (in terms of the sheer size of the entire structure) of the famous Martand Temple : ' This liberal (king) built the wonderful (shrine) of Martand with its massive walls of stone within a lofty enclosure (prasadantar) and its town swelling with grapes '. The famous writer Lawrence in his book ' The Valley of Kashmir' writes: ' The valley of Kashmir is the holy land of the Hindus, and I have been rarely in any village which cannot show some relic of antiquity. Curious stone miniatures of the old Kashmiri temples, huge stone seats of Mahadev ( Badrpith ) inverted by Mussalmans, carved images heaped in grotesque confusion by some clear spring, have met me at ever turn. Martand is the precious specimen of ancient art, deserving a foremost place among the remains of antiquity.'

It therefore appears the temple architects and builders of Kashmir were on par with their contemporaries from all the regions of Bharatvarsh.

http://www.trinetra.org.uk/#/the-martand-surya-mandir/4553033185

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:07 pm

the first smell test in any discussions like this has to be the process of peer review. as time allows, i intend to support my viewpoint by posting supporting evidence from peer reviewed articles. this is especially important because i am only a somewhat informed rasika and neither a performer nor a professional doing research in the field. hence the insistence on peer review.

any monkey can set up a blog, a website and start filling it with folderol (thanks JM for introducing me to this wonderful word).

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:09 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:the first smell test in any discussions like this has to be the process of peer review. as time allows, i intend to support my viewpoint by posting supporting evidence from peer reviewed articles. this is especially important because i am only a somewhat informed rasika and neither a performer nor a professional doing research in the field. hence the insistence on peer review.

any monkey can set up a blog, a website and start filling it with folderol (thanks JM for introducing me to this wonderful word).

i agree. internet articles can only serve as pointers for further research. Like you, i have no agenda. I only wish to know the truth.

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:30 pm

This is a link to a page of a book containing important useful information on the subjects being discussed:

http://books.google.com/books?id=zsoC6GWr47QC&pg=PA96&lpg=PA96&dq=martand+temple+natya+shastra&source=bl&ots=JB6NJxafEt&sig=PurSeFr9mW9hGaEPfnY5Rhz4YTk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kycQUZDGL-PZ2QWE0IH4Dw&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=martand%20temple%20natya%20shastra&f=false

Notice that just as temple dancing was a part of tamil culture (and also the culture of other regions in south india), it was also a part of the culture of Kashmir.

Another point to note: The most famous text on Carnatic music was written by a Kashmiri immigrant to South India whose name is given to us as Sharngadeva.

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:33 pm

Rashmun wrote:This is a link to a page of a book containing important useful information on the subjects being discussed:

http://books.google.com/books?id=zsoC6GWr47QC&pg=PA96&lpg=PA96&dq=martand+temple+natya+shastra&source=bl&ots=JB6NJxafEt&sig=PurSeFr9mW9hGaEPfnY5Rhz4YTk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kycQUZDGL-PZ2QWE0IH4Dw&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=martand%20temple%20natya%20shastra&f=false

Notice that just as temple dancing was a part of tamil culture (and also the culture of other regions in south india), it was also a part of the culture of Kashmir.

Another point to note: The most famous text on Carnatic music was written by a Kashmiri immigrant to South India.

If you scroll to the next page one finds information about a Kashmiri immigrant to South India who became one of the earliest teachers of Shaivism in South India. His name is given as Thirumular--the prefix Thiru indicating that he had immigrated to Tamil land. It seems to me that the culture and history of South India, particularly Tamil Nadu, is inextricably woven with the culture and history of Kashmir.

by FluteHolder Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:13 pm

If you scroll to the next page one finds information about a Kashmiri immigrant to South India who became one of the earliest teachers of Shaivism in South India. His name is given as Thirumular--the prefix Thiru indicating that he had immigrated to Tamil land. It seems to me that the culture and history of South India, particularly Tamil Nadu, is inextricably woven with the culture and history of Kashmir.
>>>
I am doubtful whether he was a Kashmiri Immigrant. Ofcourse there are various stories. He is called one of the 63 saints of Shaiva sect.

http://www.thirumandiram.net/about-tirumular.html

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:21 pm

FluteHolder wrote:If you scroll to the next page one finds information about a Kashmiri immigrant to South India who became one of the earliest teachers of Shaivism in South India. His name is given as Thirumular--the prefix Thiru indicating that he had immigrated to Tamil land. It seems to me that the culture and history of South India, particularly Tamil Nadu, is inextricably woven with the culture and history of Kashmir.
>>>
I am doubtful whether he was a Kashmiri Immigrant. Ofcourse there are various stories. He is called one of the 63 saints of Shaiva sect.

http://www.thirumandiram.net/about-tirumular.html

Another reference which says he was a kashmiri immigrant to TN:

http://books.google.com/books?id=KnPoYxrRfc0C&pg=PA4092&lpg=PA4092&dq=thirumular+kashmir&source=bl&ots=Y6Mwx1lDA2&sig=rO23VVtPOkxXQz4Aipai0jQJ52Y&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-jMQUa_sJ4fi2AXJSQ&ved=0CEEQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=thirumular%20kashmir&f=false

by FluteHolder Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:24 pm

Rashmun wrote:
FluteHolder wrote:If you scroll to the next page one finds information about a Kashmiri immigrant to South India who became one of the earliest teachers of Shaivism in South India. His name is given as Thirumular--the prefix Thiru indicating that he had immigrated to Tamil land. It seems to me that the culture and history of South India, particularly Tamil Nadu, is inextricably woven with the culture and history of Kashmir.
>>>
I am doubtful whether he was a Kashmiri Immigrant. Ofcourse there are various stories. He is called one of the 63 saints of Shaiva sect.

http://www.thirumandiram.net/about-tirumular.html

Another reference which says he was a kashmiri immigrant to TN:

http://books.google.com/books?id=KnPoYxrRfc0C&pg=PA4092&lpg=PA4092&dq=thirumular+kashmir&source=bl&ots=Y6Mwx1lDA2&sig=rO23VVtPOkxXQz4Aipai0jQJ52Y&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-jMQUa_sJ4fi2AXJSQ&ved=0CEEQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=thirumular%20kashmir&f=false

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:25 pm

note to readers:

anything i post in this thread will be focused narrowly on addressing the rather tall claim made earlier in the thread that BN is the creation of kashmiris. i have no interest in discussing the connections between hindustani music and CM, or the relationship between kashmiri and tamil saivism in this thread.

by bw Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:31 pm

BN is a kashmiri tradition?

damn. wish someone had told my parents that and i wouldn't have undergone a lot of torture in the form of dance classes.

what are tamilians left with now? idli?

by Hellsangel Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:33 pm

bw wrote:BN is a kashmiri tradition?

damn. wish someone had told my parents that and i wouldn't have undergone a lot of torture in the form of dance classes.

what are tamilians left with now? idli?

Even sambar is not the Tamils to claim. BTW, what secret message are you sending with idli? Which sub-caste dialect is that?

by Idéfix Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:36 pm

bw wrote:what are tamilians left with now? idli?

I am told that they are the most intelligent people in India.

by Hellsangel Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:37 pm

panini press wrote:
bw wrote:what are tamilians left with now? idli?
I am told that they are the most intelligent people in India.

(on an average) *

*Except when they pick your OCD Hindian

by bw Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:38 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
bw wrote:BN is a kashmiri tradition?

damn. wish someone had told my parents that and i wouldn't have undergone a lot of torture in the form of dance classes.

what are tamilians left with now? idli?

Even sambar is not the Tamils to claim. BTW, what secret message are you sending with idli? Which sub-caste dialect is that?

i know. we lost the sambaar/kozhambu(psst, another code right here) family to some marathi dude. Sad

shush, do not ask openly about secret messages. it is all classified info, meant for certain ears.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:39 pm

bw wrote:BN is a kashmiri tradition?

damn. wish someone had told my parents that and i wouldn't have undergone a lot of torture in the form of dance classes.

what are tamilians left with now? idli?

apparently it is a fact.
https://such.forumotion.com/t10524-beijing-sways-to-bharatanatyam#80978

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:googling skills are no substitute for knowledge from within the tradition. the greeks discovered some of the early laws of physics, those that had to do with planetary motion. nobody, nobody sane that is will call them the discoverers of quantum mechanics however. when you think of twentieth century physics you think of germans and americans.

I prefer to think of Bharatha Muni and Abhinavagupta as analogous to Sir Issac Newton. Without their efforts it is conceivable that there would be no BN today. The fact that Kashmir was repeatedly subjected to invasions because of its location (because of which no traditional dance form survives today in Kashmir) does not detract from the fact that the founding fathers of BN were Kashmiris.

by Idéfix Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:42 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
bw wrote:BN is a kashmiri tradition?

damn. wish someone had told my parents that and i wouldn't have undergone a lot of torture in the form of dance classes.

what are tamilians left with now? idli?

apparently it is a fact.
https://such.forumotion.com/t10524-beijing-sways-to-bharatanatyam#80978

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:googling skills are no substitute for knowledge from within the tradition. the greeks discovered some of the early laws of physics, those that had to do with planetary motion. nobody, nobody sane that is will call them the discoverers of quantum mechanics however. when you think of twentieth century physics you think of germans and americans.

I prefer to think of Bharatha Muni and Abhinavagupta as analogous to Sir Issac Newton. Without their efforts it is conceivable that there would be no BN today. The fact that Kashmir was repeatedly subjected to invasions because of its location (because of which no traditional dance form survives today in Kashmir) does not detract from the fact that the founding fathers of BN were Kashmiris.

"Founding fathers," eh? On contentious matters, do BN performers and critics debate what the founding fathers intended?

by bw Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:43 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
bw wrote:BN is a kashmiri tradition?

damn. wish someone had told my parents that and i wouldn't have undergone a lot of torture in the form of dance classes.

what are tamilians left with now? idli?

apparently it is a fact.
https://such.forumotion.com/t10524-beijing-sways-to-bharatanatyam#80978

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:googling skills are no substitute for knowledge from within the tradition. the greeks discovered some of the early laws of physics, those that had to do with planetary motion. nobody, nobody sane that is will call them the discoverers of quantum mechanics however. when you think of twentieth century physics you think of germans and americans.

I prefer to think of Bharatha Muni and Abhinavagupta as analogous to Sir Issac Newton. Without their efforts it is conceivable that there would be no BN today. The fact that Kashmir was repeatedly subjected to invasions because of its location (because of which no traditional dance form survives today in Kashmir) does not detract from the fact that the founding fathers of BN were Kashmiris.

who is the mother? has that been identified?

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:45 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
bw wrote:BN is a kashmiri tradition?

damn. wish someone had told my parents that and i wouldn't have undergone a lot of torture in the form of dance classes.

what are tamilians left with now? idli?

apparently it is a fact.
https://such.forumotion.com/t10524-beijing-sways-to-bharatanatyam#80978

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:googling skills are no substitute for knowledge from within the tradition. the greeks discovered some of the early laws of physics, those that had to do with planetary motion. nobody, nobody sane that is will call them the discoverers of quantum mechanics however. when you think of twentieth century physics you think of germans and americans.

I prefer to think of Bharatha Muni and Abhinavagupta as analogous to Sir Issac Newton. Without their efforts it is conceivable that there would be no BN today. The fact that Kashmir was repeatedly subjected to invasions because of its location (because of which no traditional dance form survives today in Kashmir) does not detract from the fact that the founding fathers of BN were Kashmiris.

Even tamil tradition acknowledges that Bharatha Muni who wrote the Naatya Shastra was a Kashmiri. I am only accepting what tamil tradition is telling me. Furthermore the best known commentary on the Naatya Shastra has been written not by a tamilian but by a kashmiri (Abhinavagupta). Further, we know that Abhinavagupta (who was a kashmiri living in kashmir) had tamil disciples like the scholar Madhuraja who travelled to Kashmir to be a student of Abhinavagupta. So what i postulated was that tamil students of the Kashmiri teachers brought the dance form now known as BN from Kashmir to TN. Kashmiri immigrants to TN may have also played a role in this connection.

This is just a theory--with further information it will get strengthened or weakened. My objective is the pursuit of truth and not pursuing any agendas.

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:47 pm

bw wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
bw wrote:BN is a kashmiri tradition?

damn. wish someone had told my parents that and i wouldn't have undergone a lot of torture in the form of dance classes.

what are tamilians left with now? idli?

apparently it is a fact.
https://such.forumotion.com/t10524-beijing-sways-to-bharatanatyam#80978

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:googling skills are no substitute for knowledge from within the tradition. the greeks discovered some of the early laws of physics, those that had to do with planetary motion. nobody, nobody sane that is will call them the discoverers of quantum mechanics however. when you think of twentieth century physics you think of germans and americans.

I prefer to think of Bharatha Muni and Abhinavagupta as analogous to Sir Issac Newton. Without their efforts it is conceivable that there would be no BN today. The fact that Kashmir was repeatedly subjected to invasions because of its location (because of which no traditional dance form survives today in Kashmir) does not detract from the fact that the founding fathers of BN were Kashmiris.

who is the mother? has that been identified?

in those days women were usually not permitted to learn sanskrit (and hence not permitted to undertake scholarly activities).

by bw Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:48 pm

panini press wrote:
bw wrote:what are tamilians left with now? idli?
I am told that they are the most intelligent people in India.

just in india? when were we reduced to that?

no sambaar, no BN(am kind of glad about this one but i still feel the pain of my caste), and now, just in india.

too many shocks. i need a cup of coffee.

by Hellsangel Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:51 pm

Rashmun wrote:
in those days women were usually not permitted to learn sanskrit (and hence not permitted to undertake scholarly activities).

So was that some kind of immaculate conception with no mother?

by bw Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:52 pm

Rashmun wrote:
bw wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
bw wrote:BN is a kashmiri tradition?

damn. wish someone had told my parents that and i wouldn't have undergone a lot of torture in the form of dance classes.

what are tamilians left with now? idli?

apparently it is a fact.
https://such.forumotion.com/t10524-beijing-sways-to-bharatanatyam#80978

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:googling skills are no substitute for knowledge from within the tradition. the greeks discovered some of the early laws of physics, those that had to do with planetary motion. nobody, nobody sane that is will call them the discoverers of quantum mechanics however. when you think of twentieth century physics you think of germans and americans.

I prefer to think of Bharatha Muni and Abhinavagupta as analogous to Sir Issac Newton. Without their efforts it is conceivable that there would be no BN today. The fact that Kashmir was repeatedly subjected to invasions because of its location (because of which no traditional dance form survives today in Kashmir) does not detract from the fact that the founding fathers of BN were Kashmiris.

who is the mother? has that been identified?

in those days women were usually not permitted to learn sanskrit (and hence not permitted to undertake scholarly activities).

they merely danced to the tunes of these two kashmiri fatherly blokes? unfair. we have to identify a mother.

by Idéfix Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:52 pm

bw wrote:
panini press wrote:
bw wrote:what are tamilians left with now? idli?
I am told that they are the most intelligent people in India.

just in india? when were we reduced to that?

no sambaar, no BN(am kind of glad of this one but i still feel the pain of my caste), and now, just in india.

too many shocks. i need a cup of coffee.

As reasonable people, we should be open to give-and-take on this matter. If you are considered the most intelligent people in South Asia, what hare-brained theories are you willing to accept without challenge, or at least maintain a respectful silence about? How about if you are considered the most intelligent in Asia? Or the world? Let's negotiate. Intelligence, after all, is like an emoticon: open to interpretation.

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:55 pm

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
bw wrote:BN is a kashmiri tradition?

damn. wish someone had told my parents that and i wouldn't have undergone a lot of torture in the form of dance classes.

what are tamilians left with now? idli?

apparently it is a fact.
https://such.forumotion.com/t10524-beijing-sways-to-bharatanatyam#80978

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:googling skills are no substitute for knowledge from within the tradition. the greeks discovered some of the early laws of physics, those that had to do with planetary motion. nobody, nobody sane that is will call them the discoverers of quantum mechanics however. when you think of twentieth century physics you think of germans and americans.

I prefer to think of Bharatha Muni and Abhinavagupta as analogous to Sir Issac Newton. Without their efforts it is conceivable that there would be no BN today. The fact that Kashmir was repeatedly subjected to invasions because of its location (because of which no traditional dance form survives today in Kashmir) does not detract from the fact that the founding fathers of BN were Kashmiris.

Even tamil tradition acknowledges that Bharatha Muni who wrote the Naatya Shastra was a Kashmiri. I am only accepting what tamil tradition is telling me. Furthermore the best known commentary on the Naatya Shastra has been written not by a tamilian but by a kashmiri (Abhinavagupta). Further, we know that Abhinavagupta (who was a kashmiri living in kashmir) had tamil disciples like the scholar Madhuraja who travelled to Kashmir to be a student of Abhinavagupta. So what i postulated was that tamil students of the Kashmiri teachers brought the dance form now known as BN from Kashmir to TN. Kashmiri immigrants to TN may have also played a role in this connection.

This is just a theory--with further information it will get strengthened or weakened. My objective is the pursuit of truth and not pursuing any agendas.

The Naatya Shastra is of course the theoretical manual from which BN arose. My claim is that no such theoretical manual could have come into being without practical knowledge of the subjects discussed in the Naatya Shastra.

When the kashmiri Abhinavgupta's tamil student Madhuraja visited his residence in Kashmir he heard music and saw people dancing. I speculate that the dancing Madhuraja saw was probably a variant of the BN we know of today since they would be based on the Naatya Shastra on which Abhinavagupta was the foremost authority in his (and perhaps our) time. Perhaps a primitive variant but nevertheless the dance moves would probably be recognizable to a trained BN dancer.

by bw Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:55 pm

panini press wrote:
bw wrote:
panini press wrote:
bw wrote:what are tamilians left with now? idli?
I am told that they are the most intelligent people in India.

just in india? when were we reduced to that?

no sambaar, no BN(am kind of glad of this one but i still feel the pain of my caste), and now, just in india.

too many shocks. i need a cup of coffee.
As reasonable people, we should be open to give-and-take on this matter. If you are considered the most intelligent people in South Asia, what hare-brained theories are you willing to accept without challenge, or at least maintain a respectful silence about? How about if you are considered the most intelligent in Asia? Or the world? Let's negotiate. Intelligence, after all, is like an emoticon: open to interpretation.

it all depends on whether the hare is middle-parted or not.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:56 pm

an essential assumption in the original claim seems to be that BN as it is known today is essentially derived wholly from a sanskritic text, the naatyashastra. hence the breezy claim of a kashmiri origin.

that in any case is easily dismissed by looking at the well-documented and recorded history of the role of the tanjore quartet. as ancillary evidence, all of technical jargon of BN and nearly all the performed compositions - padams, varNams etc. are in tamil, the very modern practice of incorporating compositions from other languages notwithstanding.

there is a reason why i employed the analogy of the greeks who discovered the laws of planetary motion and their relationship to modern physics. the implied ownership of BN by kashmiris is tantamount to greeks inventing QM.

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:00 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:an essential assumption in the original claim seems to be that BN as it is known today is essentially derived wholly from a sanskritic text, the naatyashastra. hence the breezy claim of a kashmiri origin.

that in any case is easily dismissed by looking at the well-documented and recorded history of the role of the tanjore quartet. as ancillary evidence, all of technical jargon of BN and nearly all the performed compositions - padams, varNams etc. are in tamil, the very modern practice of incorporating compositions from other languages notwithstanding.

The BN postures depicted in the Nataraja temple at Chidambaram, at the Shiva temple at Thanjavur, etc. all predate the Tanjore quartet. The music accompanying the dance also has contribution in its development by Kashmiris. a Kashmiri immigrant to South India is regarded as the founding father of Carnatic music as i pointed out earlier.

by Hellsangel Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:03 pm

Now the Tamils lost even CM?

by bw Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:06 pm

Hellsangel wrote:Now the Tamils lost even CM?

did we ever have it? thought it was telugu property?

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:10 pm

bw wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:Now the Tamils lost even CM?

did we ever have it? thought it was telugu property?

joint ownership with telugus and kannadigas.
dikshitar = tamil, shyama shastri = tamil, thyagaraja = telugu, oothukadu venkata subbaiyer (who predated the trinity i think) = tamil, and purandara dasa = kannadiga.

by Hellsangel Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:10 pm

bw wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:Now the Tamils lost even CM?

did we ever have it? thought it was telugu property?

Looks like the Kashmiris have to file a claim now.

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:12 pm

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:an essential assumption in the original claim seems to be that BN as it is known today is essentially derived wholly from a sanskritic text, the naatyashastra. hence the breezy claim of a kashmiri origin.

that in any case is easily dismissed by looking at the well-documented and recorded history of the role of the tanjore quartet. as ancillary evidence, all of technical jargon of BN and nearly all the performed compositions - padams, varNams etc. are in tamil, the very modern practice of incorporating compositions from other languages notwithstanding.

The BN postures depicted in the Nataraja temple at Chidambaram, at the Shiva temple at Thanjavur, etc. all predate the Tanjore quartet. The music accompanying the dance also has contribution in its development by Kashmiris. a Kashmiri immigrant to South India is regarded as the founding father of Carnatic music as i pointed out earlier.

The name of this Kashmiri immigrant to South India was Sarangdev and the book he wrote was the Sangeet Ratnakar:

http://books.google.com/books?id=zsoC6GWr47QC&pg=PA96&lpg=PA96&dq=martand+temple+natya+shastra&source=bl&ots=JB6NJxafEt&sig=PurSeFr9mW9hGaEPfnY5Rhz4YTk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kycQUZDGL-PZ2QWE0IH4Dw&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=martand%20temple%20natya%20shastra&f=false

See also:

http://www.sadharani.com/indian-classical-music/

by bw Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:14 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
bw wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:Now the Tamils lost even CM?

did we ever have it? thought it was telugu property?

joint ownership with telugus and kannadigas.
dikshitar = tamil, shyama shastri = tamil, thyagaraja = telugu, oothukadu venkata subbaiyer (who predated the trinity i think) = tamil, and purandara dasa = kannadiga.

oh, 3 tamilians!

we are the majority stakeholders and that's that.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:14 pm

oothukadu: 1700 - 1765 CE
thyagaraja: 1767- 1847 CE
MD: 1775-1835 CE
purandara dasa: 1484 - 1564 CE
shyama shastri: 1762- 1827 CE

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:14 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
bw wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:Now the Tamils lost even CM?

did we ever have it? thought it was telugu property?

joint ownership with telugus and kannadigas.
dikshitar = tamil, shyama shastri = tamil, thyagaraja = telugu, oothukadu venkata subbaiyer (who predated the trinity i think) = tamil, and purandara dasa = kannadiga.

I am not disputing this but what about the Kashmiri Sarangdev (Kashmiri immigrant to South India) whose book Sangeet Ratnakar is considered the basis for Carnatic music?

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:15 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:oothukadu: 1700 - 1765 CE
thyagaraja: 1767- 1847 CE
MD: 1775-1835 CE
purandara dasa: 1484 - 1564 CE
shyama shastri: 1762- 1827 CE

Sarangdev (Kashmiri immigrant to South India) : circa 12th century CE

by bw Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:18 pm

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:oothukadu: 1700 - 1765 CE
thyagaraja: 1767- 1847 CE
MD: 1775-1835 CE
purandara dasa: 1484 - 1564 CE
shyama shastri: 1762- 1827 CE

Sarangdev (Kashmiri immigrant to South India) : circa 12th century CE

rashmun, is there one thing that is truly a tamilian tradition? i am getting rather disillusioned with my culture. have they done anything at all? please help me feel good about my culture.

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:21 pm

bw wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:oothukadu: 1700 - 1765 CE
thyagaraja: 1767- 1847 CE
MD: 1775-1835 CE
purandara dasa: 1484 - 1564 CE
shyama shastri: 1762- 1827 CE

Sarangdev (Kashmiri immigrant to South India) : circa 12th century CE

rashmun, is there one thing that is truly a tamilian tradition? i am getting rather disillusioned with my culture. have they done anything at all? please help me feel good about my culture.

tamil kings were the only Indian kings to my knowledge who had a well armed navy using which they carried out naval conquests. Raja Raja Chola and Rajendra Chola in particular.

by Hellsangel Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:23 pm

Yippie kai yay! Tamils have a navy!

by bw Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:24 pm

Rashmun wrote:
bw wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:oothukadu: 1700 - 1765 CE
thyagaraja: 1767- 1847 CE
MD: 1775-1835 CE
purandara dasa: 1484 - 1564 CE
shyama shastri: 1762- 1827 CE

Sarangdev (Kashmiri immigrant to South India) : circa 12th century CE

rashmun, is there one thing that is truly a tamilian tradition? i am getting rather disillusioned with my culture. have they done anything at all? please help me feel good about my culture.

tamil kings were the only Indian kings to my knowledge who had a well armed navy using which they carried out naval conquests. Raja Raja Chola and Rajendra Chola in particular.

did the tamilians invent the idea of navy? did they invent ships? did they invent the sea? if not, they aren't the founding fathers of all this.

anything else?

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:25 pm

bw wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
bw wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:oothukadu: 1700 - 1765 CE
thyagaraja: 1767- 1847 CE
MD: 1775-1835 CE
purandara dasa: 1484 - 1564 CE
shyama shastri: 1762- 1827 CE

Sarangdev (Kashmiri immigrant to South India) : circa 12th century CE

rashmun, is there one thing that is truly a tamilian tradition? i am getting rather disillusioned with my culture. have they done anything at all? please help me feel good about my culture.

tamil kings were the only Indian kings to my knowledge who had a well armed navy using which they carried out naval conquests. Raja Raja Chola and Rajendra Chola in particular.

did the tamilians invent the idea of navy? did they invent ships? did they invent the sea? if not, they aren't the founding fathers of all this.

anything else?

A tamilian (Ramanuja) was the founding father of the influential Vaisnava philosophy known as Visistadvaita.

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