Strip Search finds India's spine

by Guest Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:33 pm

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Devyani-case-Strip-search-finds-Indias-spine/articleshow/27546955.cms

by southindian Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:40 pm

Why is India outraged? Handcuff and custody is default in US. If India can't keep laws same for all Indians it then why get angry on Americans?

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:45 pm

two questions:

(1) is what she is being charged with covered by the diplomatic immunity clause?

(2) if the answer to (1) is no, has she been treated differently from someone else charged with the same crime?

by Guest Tue Dec 17, 2013 4:17 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:two questions:

(1) is what she is being charged with covered by the diplomatic immunity clause?

(2) if the answer to (1) is no, has she been treated differently from someone else charged with the same crime?

As a consular official she does not enjoy complete immunity. Never the less the Geneva convention states that she has to be treated with respect and dignity if arrested. Now here she was not only subjected to strip searches but also to multiple 'cavity searches' and locked up with drug addicts and criminals. The response to what she did was grossly disproportionate. She is not being accused of physically abusing her maid, only of underpaying her.

Even with respect to underpaying the maid, if we take into account the fact that the apartment rent, food, travel, visits to India, medical and insurance expenses, etc. are all being taken care of it would together with the wage she was getting add upto or exceed the minimum wage the maid was entitled to get: this is the official Indian argument.

According to Shashi Tharoor there are hundreds of (typically developing) countries with thousands of these domestic help for consular staff in the U.S. who are underpaying their staff and so this indeed is a case of singling out of an individual. Several senior Indian diplomats, now retired, have stated that they were giving their domestic helps the same wage that Devyani was giving to her help.

The crux of the question is: can labor laws of the U.S. be applied to domestic helps attached to consular or embassy staff; or should Indian laws be applied to such people? Can a domestic help be given a wage which exceeds the wage of a senior Indian consul general or Indian ambassador (or Indian diplomats who are working very long hours)? And what should be done if some Indian diplomat in the U.S. is working long hours and his salary is not meeting the minimum wage requirement? Can the U.S. intervene in such a case also?

I suppose one way out is to agree to pay the domestic helps the $4,500 per month or whatever is the requirement and then deduct from this wage the money for apartment rent, food, travel expense, visits to India expense, medical and insurance, etc. and they will be left with a little over (or maybe less than) the $3 per hour which this maid and other maids attached to Indian diplomats get.

by smArtha Tue Dec 17, 2013 4:27 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:two questions:

(1) is what she is being charged with covered by the diplomatic immunity clause?

(2) if the answer to (1) is no, has she been treated differently from someone else charged with the same crime?

I don't think the issue is if she was treated differently from those who did the crime. She was not given the same privileges that US Diplomats are given in India and other where they transgress the law. The same sex partner is a one valid case. Raymonds or some US Consular official murdering two pakistanis and escaping with blood money deal instead of facing the Pakistani Law is another episode. Remember that US takes all and more privileges when it operates in other jurisdictions and hence this moral high ground is puke worthy.

by Guest Tue Dec 17, 2013 4:28 pm

jfschumaker
2:15 PM EST
Maybe what the U.S. Marshals did was perfectly legal, but that doesn't make it right. If you are underpaying an employee by $6 an hour, is it right that you should be arrested, handcuffed, perp-walked, strip searched and put in jail with hardened criminals? Sure, you should be subpoenaed, sued and be forced to pay restitution if you are found guilty. Sure, you should probably be sent back to your own country if you are a Consular Officer. But I don't think you should be treated as a violent criminal. There are also diplomatic considerations as well. This incident could have been handled between the Indian and US governments in an atmosphere of respect. Instead the treatment of India's Deputy CG has been met with outrage in India, and reprisals against our own American Consular staff there. The arrest makes great headlines in New York, but it's Americans in India who are paying the price for all that publicity. I don't know whether the US and India have a bilateral agreement on Consular Relations like the one we negotiated with the Soviets back in the 1960's, but such an agreement would save a lot of grief for both sides.

RickJohnson621
2:33 PM EST
I think some hot head blew it and now the State Department officials are trying to clean up. I have lived overseas and have enjoyed diplomatic immunity and the very thought that the US government says it applies only to consular duties sends shivers up my spine.

RickJohnson621
2:30 PM EST
You guys simply do not get how this works. They will arrest a US diplomat, charge her with the same thing and give her the same sentence. Do you honestly believe the US government pays it's Indian workers the US minimum wage? This case could set a precedent that will cost US taxpayers billions more each year if they decided to pay the US minimum wage to all it's overseas workers.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/arrest-of-indian-diplomat-in-new-york-sparks-us-india-tensions/2013/12/17/09d1d81e-6714-11e3-997b-9213b17dac97_allComments.html

by Guest Tue Dec 17, 2013 4:30 pm

RickJohnson621
2:10 PM EST
“Under the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations, the Indian deputy consul general enjoys immunity from the jurisdiction of U.S. courts only with respect to acts performed in the exercise of consular functions,” Harf said. “So, in this case, she fell under that specific kind of immunity and would be liable to arrest pending trial pursuant a felony arrest warrant.”

The US government blew it big time. If this definition above of diplomatic immunity becomes the new norm for countries then American personnel all over the world are in big trouble. It has long been understood that diplomatic immunity applies to every crime and can only be waived by the targeted party. In many extreme cases like rape and murder, it is waived. This case simply does not rise to what happened. They simply should have expelled her from the country. I m not surprised that this happened in New York. Over there in spite of all the diplomats, they have scant respect for them.

For those applauding this think about US diplomats overseas and the implications for them. I seriously doubt the US pays most workers in foreign countries the minimum US wage in the countries they are in. In many places in the world, the US minimum was is more money than most government officials make! In many places paying the minimum ways could be as less as a dollar a day. Don't worry about this woman. Worry about US officials worldwide who will soon be targets of rogue governments using the same excuse.

by Guest Tue Dec 17, 2013 4:45 pm

so they did give a warning:

Asked if the matter could not have been resolved in any other way outside an arrest, Desai-Biswal made a significant disclosure that could change the contours of the debate. She said the US state department had alerted — in writing — the Indian embassy as early as September this year that there were allegations against the diplomat concerning underpayment of minimum wages and non-compliance, and that action could be imminent under US laws.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Devyani-case-No-regret-but-conciliatory-US-promises-to-review-procedures/articleshow/27547650.cms

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:41 pm

Rashmun wrote:

For those applauding this think about US diplomats overseas and the implications for them. I seriously doubt the US pays most workers in foreign countries the minimum US wage in the countries they are in. In many places in the world, the US minimum was is more money than most government officials make! In many places paying the minimum ways could be as less as a dollar a day. Don't worry about this woman. Worry about US officials worldwide who will soon be targets of rogue governments using the same excuse.[/i]

they don't have to do that. if they are employing local help, they need to make sure they are paying at least the mandated minimum wage of the country they are hiring the help in. they are not required to pay US minimum wage. looks like this guy doesn't understand what the problem is.

by Guest Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:57 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Rashmun wrote:

For those applauding this think about US diplomats overseas and the implications for them. I seriously doubt the US pays most workers in foreign countries the minimum US wage in the countries they are in. In many places in the world, the US minimum was is more money than most government officials make! In many places paying the minimum ways could be as less as a dollar a day. Don't worry about this woman. Worry about US officials worldwide who will soon be targets of rogue governments using the same excuse.[/i]

they don't have to do that. if they are employing local help, they need to make sure they are paying at least the mandated minimum wage of the country they are hiring the help in. they are not required to pay US minimum wage. looks like this guy doesn't understand what the problem is.

Can the pay of a domestic help (servant) of a diplomat be more than the pay of a consul general or ambassador? Should the pay of consul generals, ambassadors, other diplomats also be subject to the minimum wage law?

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:03 pm

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Rashmun wrote:

For those applauding this think about US diplomats overseas and the implications for them. I seriously doubt the US pays most workers in foreign countries the minimum US wage in the countries they are in. In many places in the world, the US minimum was is more money than most government officials make! In many places paying the minimum ways could be as less as a dollar a day. Don't worry about this woman. Worry about US officials worldwide who will soon be targets of rogue governments using the same excuse.[/i]

they don't have to do that. if they are employing local help, they need to make sure they are paying at least the mandated minimum wage of the country they are hiring the help in. they are not required to pay US minimum wage. looks like this guy doesn't understand what the problem is.

Can the pay of a domestic help (servant) of a diplomat be more than the pay of a consul general or ambassador? Should the pay of consul generals, ambassadors, other diplomats also be subject to the minimum wage law?

i don't know, but she has committed in some written document that she was going to pay her $4500/mo. that's what has landed her in trouble i think.

by Guest Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:10 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Rashmun wrote:

For those applauding this think about US diplomats overseas and the implications for them. I seriously doubt the US pays most workers in foreign countries the minimum US wage in the countries they are in. In many places in the world, the US minimum was is more money than most government officials make! In many places paying the minimum ways could be as less as a dollar a day. Don't worry about this woman. Worry about US officials worldwide who will soon be targets of rogue governments using the same excuse.[/i]

they don't have to do that. if they are employing local help, they need to make sure they are paying at least the mandated minimum wage of the country they are hiring the help in. they are not required to pay US minimum wage. looks like this guy doesn't understand what the problem is.

Can the pay of a domestic help (servant) of a diplomat be more than the pay of a consul general or ambassador? Should the pay of consul generals, ambassadors, other diplomats also be subject to the minimum wage law?

i don't know, but she has committed in some written document that she was going to pay her $4500/mo. that's what has landed her in trouble i think.

It is a technicality because all diplomats of developing countries flout this minimum wage undertaking they give in writing as Shashi Tharoor has pointed out. Why single her out?

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:11 pm

there are many finer points of law that should and will be debated in this particular case. but it is undeniable that upper middle class indians who have not had much exposure to law and order in the west expect to be treated with kid gloves when it comes to routine law and order conformance. they expect special treatment. however in the US even senator ted kennedy had to undergo a random security check at an airport. i didn't hear him complain; but indian diplomats routinely whine about such things and it makes big news in india.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:18 pm

maybe the smart thing to do is to negotiate relief from american minimum wage laws for domestic help brought in from india. if the domestic help's food and rent is taken care of by the indian govt, it should be possible to legally pay a wage lower than the mandated minimum wage. but why didn't they negotiate this up front and do all this on the up and up? the problem is when you put something down and paper and then flout it.

by Kris Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:08 pm

The woman could well be guilty of something, but even assuming she was not covered by diplomatic immunity (this is hard to believe for an assistant consul general, but I don't know the nuances of how these are handed out), the handling of this has the makings of a diplomatic fiasco. India's reaction is understandable, considering this public slap in the face.

by Guest Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:38 pm

Indian officials have long suspected — but looked away from — possible violations of visa norms by teachers and other employees at the American schools run by US missions in India.

Today, the foreign ministry asked the US embassy to submit salary slips and visa documents of all these school employees.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1131218/jsp/frontpage/story_17693648.jsp#.UrEG_uIszKw

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