smArtha wrote:

a) US Attorney Preet Bahraara's political ambitions and the need to prove he is more white/american than the locals

i am well aware of the seemingly large number of people of indian origin on the list of people bharara has prosecuted. i have myself remarked on it in prior posts. my question to you, assuming you are now an indian citizen or were one previously and hence have affection and regard for india is this: why are you supporting this woman who is manifestly corrupt?

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:you are missing the point. the maid brought in a complaint to bharara's office. he is duty bound to investigate it. there is no choice in the matter.

how come same legally bound standard not apply to Indian court/ govt. request to trace sangeeta? if her whereabouts are known to us attorney, why were they not forwarded to Indian court?

prosecution has enormous discretion. us attorney involved is trying to establish his credentials on the lines of rudy who went after Italians and Elliot who went after prostitution.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

smArtha wrote:

a) US Attorney Preet Bahraara's political ambitions and the need to prove he is more white/american than the locals

i am well aware of the seemingly large number of people of indian origin on the list of people bharara has prosecuted. i have myself remarked on it in prior posts. my question to you, assuming you are now an indian citizen or were one previously and hence have affection and regard for india is this: why are you supporting this woman who is manifestly corrupt?

1. if she is corrupt then so are thousands of other diplomats of developing countries posted in the US.
2. The US embassy in India is technically US territory. Most local indians employed by the embassy get paid below the US minimum wage.
3. Bharara has broken Indian law by extraditing the maid's husband who was facing a legal case in an Indian court.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

smArtha wrote:

a) US Attorney Preet Bahraara's political ambitions and the need to prove he is more white/american than the locals

i am well aware of the seemingly large number of people of indian origin on the list of people bharara has prosecuted. i have myself remarked on it in prior posts. my question to you, assuming you are now an indian citizen or were one previously and hence have affection and regard for india is this: why are you supporting this woman who is manifestly corrupt?

What does her being a corrupt of any concern to the shabby treatment she received in America? Is the U.S the Lokpal of India, trying Indian citizens in its land? If she is corrupt, we have the laws in India to care of that, we don't need a outsider to poke into that.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:indians and SUCHers of indian origin who whine here day in and day out about corruption of indian politicians should be ashamed of themselves. you whine, yet you do not stand by your own principles and let national pride take precedence over your distaste for corruption. yes it is hurtful that it is the government of another country that is bringing this suit, but if you truly care about weeding out corruption from your govt, why don't you stand with bharara?

Did you stand up against your side negotiating private and illegal deals for their officials murdering civilians in Paksitan or running them down with a truck in Kenya and blissfully returning to homeland escaping the local laws. A morally corrupt and eternal violator of international laws cannot preach to the others. It is better that each clean up their house and let others do theirs.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i am going to write a letter to the white house today after duly informing them of my indian origin where i plan to ask the obama administration to NOT apologize to india for bharara's actions.

Sure and even I think India shouldn't ask for apology but show the US State Department the power of reciprocity. It is easier for anyone (actually everyone for that matter) to be violating one or more of the more complex and often confusing laws in India. So, it doesn't take much for the MEA to find not one but many violations by the US Officials stationed there. And then think of these guys facing Indian Jails/Police/Legal system which are far worse than those here. Actually just stripping them off their 'privileges' and making them stand in lines/queues for everything very much like the aam aadmi in itself will show them the stars. Reciprocity is the way to go with respect to diplomacy.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

smArtha wrote:

a) US Attorney Preet Bahraara's political ambitions and the need to prove he is more white/american than the locals

i am well aware of the seemingly large number of people of indian origin on the list of people bharara has prosecuted. i have myself remarked on it in prior posts. my question to you, assuming you are now an indian citizen or were one previously and hence have affection and regard for india is this: why are you supporting this woman who is manifestly corrupt?

Max - the woman by herself is not alone in this act. She just followed the 'general norms' every Indian Official followed thus far or is following still. The discrepancies between Visa App and actual pay are a norm that was too well known to even the State Department and the 'unwritten' agreement was 'don't ask don't tell'. The US Attorney identified this loop hole and exploited it to his advantage with the help of some US Embassy & State Dept officials and the maids family.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:indians and SUCHers of indian origin who whine here day in and day out about corruption of indian politicians should be ashamed of themselves. you whine, yet you do not stand by your own principles and let national pride take precedence over your distaste for corruption. yes it is hurtful that it is the government of another country that is bringing this suit, but if you truly care about weeding out corruption from your govt, why don't you stand with bharara?

From day one I have been pro-prosecution. Cobragate is a shining example of Indian elites' utter disregard for the law. When you apply for a visa and go to another country, you have to obey the laws of that country or else face the consequences. Simple as that. All the noise raised by the media and the retaliatory measures taken by the Indian govt is much ado about nothing.

smArtha wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

smArtha wrote:

a) US Attorney Preet Bahraara's political ambitions and the need to prove he is more white/american than the locals

i am well aware of the seemingly large number of people of indian origin on the list of people bharara has prosecuted. i have myself remarked on it in prior posts. my question to you, assuming you are now an indian citizen or were one previously and hence have affection and regard for india is this: why are you supporting this woman who is manifestly corrupt?

Max - the woman by herself is not alone in this act. She just followed the 'general norms' every Indian Official followed thus far or is following still. The discrepancies between Visa App and actual pay are a norm that was too well known to even the State Department and the 'unwritten' agreement was 'don't ask don't tell'. The US Attorney identified this loop hole and exploited it to his advantage with the help of some US Embassy & State Dept officials and the maids family.

She knowingly took a risk. When you take a risk, you realize that there can be an adverse outcome, right?

indophile wrote:

Rishi wrote:It is true that she was fully searched by a female Deputy Marshal -- in a private setting -- when she was brought into the U.S. Marshals' custody, but this is standard practice for every defendant, rich or poor, American or not, in order to make sure that no prisoner keeps anything on his person that could harm anyone, including himself.

>>>That is not true. It seems the strip and cavity searching is only done for crimes like drug possession etc.

The Washington Post says about the same - you don't go that far with a diplomat of a friendly country.


Later, she was strip-searched and — she claims — cavity-searched by U.S. marshals; the Marshals Service is charged with housing federal prisoners. Experts said that was unheard-of treatment for a diplomat arrested by a friendly country. (A spokeswoman for the agency says that Khobragade was merely strip-searched.)

Someone is lying. Who?

I think it is very reasonable to assume that Devyani is aware of every detail of arrest procedures thus she must lying, gauging from the comments section it is obvious that many Americans themselves are not aware of strip searching and others stuff involved with the arrest process.

truthbetold wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:you are missing the point. the maid brought in a complaint to bharara's office. he is duty bound to investigate it. there is no choice in the matter.

how come same legally bound standard not apply to Indian court/ govt. request to trace sangeeta? if her whereabouts are known to us attorney, why were they not forwarded to Indian court?

prosecution has enormous discretion. us attorney involved is trying to establish his credentials on the lines of rudy who went after Italians and Elliot who went after prostitution.

Yup. NYPD didn't bother either.

"An intriguing part of the story is how difficult it became for Khobragade to file a Missing Persons Report with the NYPD. It was on the advice of the OFM, Khobragade went to file a missing person report at the police precinct concerned, but was told that she could not since Richard was an adult, and that such a report could only be lodged by a member of her family.

When Mr Richard, Sangeeta's husband, was contacted, he refused to file a Missing Person Report, indicating his awareness of something being amiss.

Read more at: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/devyani-khobragade-case-visa-issue-indian-diplomat-arrest/1/331838.html"

smArtha wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:indians and SUCHers of indian origin who whine here day in and day out about corruption of indian politicians should be ashamed of themselves. you whine, yet you do not stand by your own principles and let national pride take precedence over your distaste for corruption. yes it is hurtful that it is the government of another country that is bringing this suit, but if you truly care about weeding out corruption from your govt, why don't you stand with bharara?

Did you stand up against your side negotiating private and illegal deals for their officials murdering civilians in Paksitan or running them down with a truck in Kenya and blissfully returning to homeland escaping the local laws. A morally corrupt and eternal violator of international laws cannot preach to the others. It is better that each clean up their house and let others do theirs.

hypocrisy is a part of human nature. that's what makes for great public theatre. however, i am disappointed that indians by and large have taken their govt's side when there is a larger issue of rooting out corruption involved. i (naively in retrospect) imagined that indians would have celebrated the public fall of a corrupt official. i thought governmental corruption is a large enough issue that indians would have set aside national pride. i am disappointed that national pride has clearly taken precedence.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

smArtha wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:indians and SUCHers of indian origin who whine here day in and day out about corruption of indian politicians should be ashamed of themselves. you whine, yet you do not stand by your own principles and let national pride take precedence over your distaste for corruption. yes it is hurtful that it is the government of another country that is bringing this suit, but if you truly care about weeding out corruption from your govt, why don't you stand with bharara?

Did you stand up against your side negotiating private and illegal deals for their officials murdering civilians in Paksitan or running them down with a truck in Kenya and blissfully returning to homeland escaping the local laws. A morally corrupt and eternal violator of international laws cannot preach to the others. It is better that each clean up their house and let others do theirs.

hypocrisy is a part of human nature. that's what makes for great public theatre. however, i am disappointed that indians by and large have taken their govt's side when there is a larger issue of rooting out corruption involved.  i (naively in retrospect) imagined that indians would have celebrated the public fall of a corrupt official. i thought governmental corruption is a large enough issue that indians would have set aside national pride.  i am disappointed that national pride has clearly taken precedence.  

Max, in this case both sides did wrong (Khobragade & Bharara), nobody is clean, you chose to pick one side. It's as simple as that.

usa does not have the balls to do this to russia or china. mac mohan singh is easy target and such an easy one that bharara's ambitions take precedence over usa's ties with india. shame shame india.

confuzzled dude wrote:
Max, in this case both sides did wrong (Khobragade & Bharara), nobody is clean, you chose to pick one side. It's as simple as that.

possibly, possibly. having much more experience with everyday graft and bribery in india probably conditions one to take a stance like that -- getting simple documents signed and executed, selling a house, getting an insurance company to deliver on a parent's health insurance policy, getting one's sister's marriage certificate. even such mundane things assume gigantic proportions. how can that not condition you?

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:
Max, in this case both sides did wrong (Khobragade & Bharara), nobody is clean, you chose to pick one side. It's as simple as that.

possibly, possibly. having much more experience with everyday graft and bribery in india probably conditions one to take a stance like that -- getting simple documents signed and executed, selling a house, getting an insurance company to deliver on a parent's health insurance policy, getting one's sister's marriage certificate. even such mundane things assume gigantic proportions. how can that not condition you?

how the heck did you connect this issue with the sentiments of an indian to corruption in india? please explain in simple terms to an illiterate. *you are beginning to look like seva or maybe you always were*

end of the day it's going to be a win for MMS and co who will claim great victory at having taken the great satan to task. they will burn american prez effigies in the streets and garland MMS and other tough talking ironmen. no matter that they didnt do shit in mumbai incidents, the corruption cases and any number of other failures that actually matter. clueless pseudo deshabhimans will play their role with their e-hysterics.

Brigadier HK (Retd) wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:
Max, in this case both sides did wrong (Khobragade & Bharara), nobody is clean, you chose to pick one side. It's as simple as that.

possibly, possibly. having much more experience with everyday graft and bribery in india probably conditions one to take a stance like that -- getting simple documents signed and executed, selling a house, getting an insurance company to deliver on a parent's health insurance policy, getting one's sister's marriage certificate. even such mundane things assume gigantic proportions. how can that not condition you?

how the heck did you connect this issue with the sentiments of an indian to corruption in india? please explain in simple terms to an illiterate. *you are beginning to look like seva or maybe you always were*

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2013/12/18/why-india-is-upset-about-devyani-khobragade-and-why-its-wrong/?hpid=z3

India’s reaction is disappointing. The anti-corruption party in India is gaining incredible momentum — the party even unseated the ruling Congress party in the country’s capital, which was a huge victory. So why are Indians rallying for a privileged treatment of a diplomat? Why shouldn’t she be treated as a common criminal? In India, someone with power would rarely be apprehended for paying a servant a low wage. Actually, it’s laughable to think such a charge would even take place. But there was hope that a movement against corruption would change things.

Propagandhi711 wrote:end of the day it's going to be a win for MMS and co who will claim great victory at having taken the great satan to task. they will burn american prez effigies in the streets and garland MMS and other tough talking ironmen. no matter that they didnt do shit in mumbai incidents, the corruption cases and any number of other failures that actually matter. clueless pseudo deshabhimans will play their role with their e-hysterics.

in (rare) agreement!

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Brigadier HK (Retd) wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:
Max, in this case both sides did wrong (Khobragade & Bharara), nobody is clean, you chose to pick one side. It's as simple as that.

possibly, possibly. having much more experience with everyday graft and bribery in india probably conditions one to take a stance like that -- getting simple documents signed and executed, selling a house, getting an insurance company to deliver on a parent's health insurance policy, getting one's sister's marriage certificate. even such mundane things assume gigantic proportions. how can that not condition you?

how the heck did you connect this issue with the sentiments of an indian to corruption in india? please explain in simple terms to an illiterate. *you are beginning to look like seva or maybe you always were*

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2013/12/18/why-india-is-upset-about-devyani-khobragade-and-why-its-wrong/?hpid=z3

India’s reaction is disappointing. The anti-corruption party in India is gaining incredible momentum — the party even unseated the ruling Congress party in the country’s capital, which was a huge victory. So why are Indians rallying for a privileged treatment of a diplomat? Why shouldn’t she be treated as a common criminal? In India, someone with power would rarely be apprehended for paying a servant a low wage. Actually, it’s laughable to think such a charge would even take place. But there was hope that a movement against corruption would change things.

that is the expression of a columnist and not a reflection of the the nationwide outrage. so?

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:you are missing the point. the maid brought in a complaint to bharara's office. he is duty bound to investigate it. there is no choice in the matter.

>>>
I agree with Max on this. Most donot see the point. It is like when a traffic cop stops you for speeding and letting go others who are speeding, you cannot ask why not them and why me?.

I applaud Preet Bharara and may send a note to support him..

The consular employee might have thought 'kuch bhi chaltha hai' attitude will work in US and it will not esp if something you write/sign/vouch.

FluteHolder wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:you are missing the point. the maid brought in a complaint to bharara's office. he is duty bound to investigate it. there is no choice in the matter.

>>>
I agree with Max on this. Most donot see the point. It is like when a traffic cop stops you for speeding and letting go others who are speeding, you cannot ask why not them and why me?.

I applaud Preet Bharara and may send a note to support him..

The consular employee might have thought 'kuch bhi chaltha hai' attitude will work in US and it will not esp if something you write/sign/vouch.

Obviously, you have not read the other half of the story; you need to familiarize yourself of series of events took place since June to get the complete picture.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
hypocrisy is a part of human nature. that's what makes for great public theatre. however, i am disappointed that indians by and large have taken their govt's side when there is a larger issue of rooting out corruption involved.  i (naively in retrospect) imagined that indians would have celebrated the public fall of a corrupt official. i thought governmental corruption is a large enough issue that indians would have set aside national pride.  i am disappointed that national pride has clearly taken precedence.  

There are different reasons why Indians or India supporters are taking this stand

a) This issue is not about corruption but about convenient misinformation which most Indians(may be others too) indulge in their interactions and are culturally conditioned to accept it as far less evil than corruption. Ask all your friends who came in to US, especially on a Student Visa, if they had lied on one or more aspects of their Visa Process(application or support documentation) or Not and you'll be 'surprised' to see the number of those that did. Heck, even for applying to a Visitor Visa they give a letter stating the parents or in-laws are visiting for Tourism purposes only while they are actually visiting to assist in looking after grand children etc. And this kind of misinformation is also partially an outcome of the strict black & white lens that the Officials and Departments are willing to don while defining/applying the policies and procedures that almost always don't fit the most common use cases. Straitjacketing of bureaucratic processes are the culprit to a certain extent. 

b) So far there is no oppression or violence or ill-treatment of the said maid that was made out. From the 'facts' that are available, at least in Indian media, this looks to be a carefully orchestrated setup and so the general public is inclined to support the less powerful (India or the Indian Consular Official) instead of the more powerful (US or State Department) here. If the story came out as the reports of oppression, violence and ill treatment of the maid by the Official then the sympathies would have been different. 

c) Even if we stretch this case to that of Corrupt MEA Officials in general and Devyani in specific, this doesn't strike a cord within India as the MEA and its services rank the least in their regular interactions with the Govt. Their resistance to corruption is largely towards those systems that matter to their daily life and the services that they have to utilize as an everyday affair.

d) Pen-ultimately  they are culturally conditioned to stand up to their own - family, clan, caste or even country when confronted by the other. The general wisdom is that each clean up their own home and not tolerate others telling them to do so.  And America is too well known in the world to be a 'preacher' (may be culture imbibed by the dominant religion) that doesn't practice what it preaches when its own interests are at stake. So US or its reps or media or citizens/residents 'preaching' them is too hollow for them to even care to consider.

e) Ultimately, as you rightly remarked, hypocrisy is part of human nature.

Ruben Navarrette from CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/18/opinion/navarrette-india-strip-search/index.html wrote:Here's a scary thought: There's a country where officials are suggesting that the visas of gay partners of U.S. diplomats be revoked and these individuals be put in jail -- not because the country recently outlawed same-sex relationships but to crack down on Americans.
In that country, the government is also curtailing the privileges traditionally granted to U.S. consulate staff, taking down protective barricades in front of the U.S. consulate and snubbing U.S. diplomatic officers.
Where do you suppose you'll find this anti-American backlash brewing? North Korea? Cuba? Iran? Surely, it must be a place where the citizens hate the United States. Perhaps it's a political adversary with which relations have never been particularly good.
Nope. All this is happening in India, which has long been a good and dependable friend and ally to the United States, most recently during the war on terror.

Brigadier HK (Retd) wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Brigadier HK (Retd) wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:
Max, in this case both sides did wrong (Khobragade & Bharara), nobody is clean, you chose to pick one side. It's as simple as that.

possibly, possibly. having much more experience with everyday graft and bribery in india probably conditions one to take a stance like that -- getting simple documents signed and executed, selling a house, getting an insurance company to deliver on a parent's health insurance policy, getting one's sister's marriage certificate. even such mundane things assume gigantic proportions. how can that not condition you?

how the heck did you connect this issue with the sentiments of an indian to corruption in india? please explain in simple terms to an illiterate. *you are beginning to look like seva or maybe you always were*

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2013/12/18/why-india-is-upset-about-devyani-khobragade-and-why-its-wrong/?hpid=z3

India’s reaction is disappointing. The anti-corruption party in India is gaining incredible momentum — the party even unseated the ruling Congress party in the country’s capital, which was a huge victory. So why are Indians rallying for a privileged treatment of a diplomat? Why shouldn’t she be treated as a common criminal? In India, someone with power would rarely be apprehended for paying a servant a low wage. Actually, it’s laughable to think such a charge would even take place. But there was hope that a movement against corruption would change things.

that is the expression of a columnist and not a reflection of the the nationwide outrage. so?

please explain how the columnist links lokpal (or justice) to the public humiliation of a diplomat (that you support) considering the fact the same "justice" is not dispensed to chinese or russian diplomats.

Max ,
get off your high horse and direct your comments to a person who said devyani is is not guilty.
the question is would you allow a country's diplomat being single out for insults?
us could ask her to be removed from the country. whatever comes of this incident, how will that influence corruption in India except make some morally superior people in usa to be happy..
India allowed refueling of us jets on their way to Iraq even though India was not officially part us alliance in first gulf war. that was a result of good relations between countries.

in this case it is a minor crime considering sangeeta and bharara are advancing personal agenda. Indian govt is deeply involved in supporting domestic help of its diplomats. us knows that.

prop,
you are confusing images of Muslim extremists with incompetent mms govt. but mms govt never used satan images.

truthbetold wrote:Max ,
get off your high horse and direct your comments to a person who said devyani  is is not guilty.  
the question is would you allow a country's diplomat being single out for insults?
us could ask her to be removed from the country. whatever comes of this incident, how will that influence corruption in India except make some morally superior people in usa to be happy..
India allowed refueling of us jets on their way to Iraq even though India was not officially part us alliance in first gulf war.  that was a result of good relations between countries.

in this case it is a minor crime considering sangeeta and bharara are advancing personal agenda. Indian govt is deeply involved in supporting domestic help of its diplomats. us knows that.

prop,
you are confusing images of Muslim extremists with incompetent mms govt. but mms govt never used satan images.

India allowing U.S. jets to refuel has zero to do with this case. Here is a person who deliberately falsified the visa application knowing the illegality of her actions (after all she is in charge of similar documents from American citizens applying for visas to come to India). When you are in another country, you have to obey its laws. Plain and simple. Just because you are the Asst Consulate General it doesn't mean you are above the law. If anyone needs to apologize, it is her. Yet she plays the victim card and shows no remorse over having deliberately broken the law. It is a pity that so many Indians are up in arms over this.

goodcitizn wrote:

truthbetold wrote:Max ,
get off your high horse and direct your comments to a person who said devyani  is is not guilty.  
the question is would you allow a country's diplomat being single out for insults?
us could ask her to be removed from the country. whatever comes of this incident, how will that influence corruption in India except make some morally superior people in usa to be happy..
India allowed refueling of us jets on their way to Iraq even though India was not officially part us alliance in first gulf war.  that was a result of good relations between countries.

in this case it is a minor crime considering sangeeta and bharara are advancing personal agenda. Indian govt is deeply involved in supporting domestic help of its diplomats. us knows that.

prop,
you are confusing images of Muslim extremists with incompetent mms govt. but mms govt never used satan images.

India allowing U.S. jets to refuel has zero to do with this case. Here is a person who deliberately falsified the visa application knowing the illegality of her actions (after all she is in charge of similar documents from American citizens applying for visas to come to India). When you are in another country, you have to obey its laws. Plain and simple. Just because you are the Asst Consulate General it doesn't mean you are above the law. If anyone needs to apologize, it is her. Yet she plays the victim card and shows no remorse over having deliberately broken the law. It is a pity that so many Indians are up in arms over this.

You should read Ruben Navarrette's column that I posted above.

goodcitizn wrote:India allowing U.S. jets to refuel has zero to do with this case. Here is a person who deliberately falsified the visa application knowing the illegality of her actions (after all she is in charge of similar documents from American citizens applying for visas to come to India). When you are in another country, you have to obey its laws. Plain and simple. Just because you are the Asst Consulate General it doesn't mean you are above the law. If anyone needs to apologize, it is her. Yet she plays the victim card and shows no remorse over having deliberately broken the law. It is a pity that so many Indians are up in arms over this.

>>
I agree.

goodcitizn wrote:

truthbetold wrote:Max ,
get off your high horse and direct your comments to a person who said devyani  is is not guilty.  
the question is would you allow a country's diplomat being single out for insults?
us could ask her to be removed from the country. whatever comes of this incident, how will that influence corruption in India except make some morally superior people in usa to be happy..
India allowed refueling of us jets on their way to Iraq even though India was not officially part us alliance in first gulf war.  that was a result of good relations between countries.

in this case it is a minor crime considering sangeeta and bharara are advancing personal agenda. Indian govt is deeply involved in supporting domestic help of its diplomats. us knows that.

prop,
you are confusing images of Muslim extremists with incompetent mms govt. but mms govt never used satan images.

India allowing U.S. jets to refuel has zero to do with this case. Here is a person who deliberately falsified the visa application knowing the illegality of her actions (after all she is in charge of similar documents from American citizens applying for visas to come to India). When you are in another country, you have to obey its laws. Plain and simple. Just because you are the Asst Consulate General it doesn't mean you are above the law. If anyone needs to apologize, it is her. Yet she plays the victim card and shows no remorse over having deliberately broken the law. It is a pity that so many Indians are up in arms over this.

We don't know all the details to form opinion one way or the other. Not sure if the contract included boarding & lodging, for example, minimum wage laws are different for tipped workers, usually much lower than standard minimum wage.

Hellsangel wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:

truthbetold wrote:Max ,
get off your high horse and direct your comments to a person who said devyani  is is not guilty.  
the question is would you allow a country's diplomat being single out for insults?
us could ask her to be removed from the country. whatever comes of this incident, how will that influence corruption in India except make some morally superior people in usa to be happy..
India allowed refueling of us jets on their way to Iraq even though India was not officially part us alliance in first gulf war.  that was a result of good relations between countries.

in this case it is a minor crime considering sangeeta and bharara are advancing personal agenda. Indian govt is deeply involved in supporting domestic help of its diplomats. us knows that.

prop,
you are confusing images of Muslim extremists with incompetent mms govt. but mms govt never used satan images.

India allowing U.S. jets to refuel has zero to do with this case. Here is a person who deliberately falsified the visa application knowing the illegality of her actions (after all she is in charge of similar documents from American citizens applying for visas to come to India). When you are in another country, you have to obey its laws. Plain and simple. Just because you are the Asst Consulate General it doesn't mean you are above the law. If anyone needs to apologize, it is her. Yet she plays the victim card and shows no remorse over having deliberately broken the law. It is a pity that so many Indians are up in arms over this.

You should read Ruben Navarrette's column that I posted above.

I did read his column. However I am yet to find any proof that she didn't intentionally falsify the visa application. I don't agree with his opinion that the U.S. should apologize. I'd like to see a statement from Devyani acknowledging her wrongdoing and extending her apology first before anything else. It bothers me terribly that she is made to look like the victim and her maid the devil incarnate by the Indian Press and the politicians.

Gc
refueling was possible because of relations beyond what appears on the surface. All countries try to protect those relationships. as part of that us and all countries turn blind eye to many activities involving diplomats.
The more i read more i find that Indian govt by convention allows this whole domestic help racket knowing fully well that it is illegal. lot of other countries do and most western nations act as if they did not know.
the problem in this cas is bharara picked up this case despite being aware of diplomatic consequences. he is smart enough to know it will be controversial and he will benefit from the publicity. i would not be surprised if he supports independent Sikh natio and would not mind India being embarrassed. at this time this is pure speculation but wait for few more years . bharara pushed the issue knowing he is going out of service soon.
the truth is calling devyani a criminal is the same as exposing india's role in this scam.
that requires us has to make the decision at much higher level. bharara took it upon himself.
India expects us to take care of its diplomats and in return it provides many favors to us diplomats. It is the diplomats who keep the communication channels. so us is also sensitive to these concerns.
Indians are making some outrageous demands but finally devyani is likely to be shipped out of usa.

Devyani is a victim in a sense. based on the facts in this case and past ifs officer statements it is clear that it is a common practice among Indian diplomats to take domestic help. that implies the help is not getting paid local min wages since diplomats do not get enough money to pay such wages. that also indicates that the usa applications contain false information.
Indian govt and many other developing nations are doing this as per what is in newspapers.
devyani followed Indian ifs officer practice. Hinting at her as corrupt or criminal may make some of you happy but the real culprit is Indian govt. it allows (probably encourages) this feudal practice without resolving this issue.
Indian govt is the criminal. is usa ready to call India the criminal?

truthbetold wrote:Gc
refueling was possible because of  relations beyond what appears on the surface. All countries try to protect those relationships. as part of that us and all countries turn blind eye to many activities involving diplomats.
The more i read more i find that Indian govt by convention allows this whole domestic help racket knowing fully well  that it is illegal. lot of other countries do and most western nations act  as if they did not know.
the problem in this cas is bharara picked up this case despite being aware of diplomatic consequences. he is smart enough to know it will be controversial and he will benefit from the publicity. i would not be surprised if he supports independent Sikh natio and would not mind India being embarrassed. at this time this is pure speculation but wait for few more years . bharara pushed the issue knowing he is going out of service  soon.
the truth is calling devyani a criminal is the same as exposing india's role in this scam.
that requires us has to make the decision at much higher level. bharara took it upon himself.
India expects us to take care of its diplomats and in return it provides many favors to us diplomats. It is the diplomats who keep the communication channels. so us is also sensitive to these concerns.
Indians are making some outrageous demands but finally devyani is likely to be shipped out of usa.

I agree with you that all this noise will most likely result in Devyani being shipped out of the U.S.

truthbetold wrote:Devyani is a victim in a sense. based on the facts in this case and past ifs officer statements it is clear that it is a common practice among Indian diplomats to take domestic help. that implies the help is not getting paid local min wages since diplomats do not get enough money to pay such wages. that also indicates that the usa applications contain false information.
Indian govt and many other developing nations are doing this as per what is in newspapers.
devyani followed Indian ifs officer practice. Hinting at her as corrupt or criminal may make some of you happy but the real culprit is Indian govt. it allows (probably encourages) this feudal practice without resolving this issue.
Indian govt is the criminal. is usa ready to call India the criminal?

India has all the needed laws but they aren't always enforced. That is not the case with other countries like the U.S. Therein lies the rub.

goodcitizn wrote:

truthbetold wrote:Max ,
get off your high horse and direct your comments to a person who said devyani  is is not guilty.  
the question is would you allow a country's diplomat being single out for insults?
us could ask her to be removed from the country. whatever comes of this incident, how will that influence corruption in India except make some morally superior people in usa to be happy..
India allowed refueling of us jets on their way to Iraq even though India was not officially part us alliance in first gulf war.  that was a result of good relations between countries.

in this case it is a minor crime considering sangeeta and bharara are advancing personal agenda. Indian govt is deeply involved in supporting domestic help of its diplomats. us knows that.

prop,
you are confusing images of Muslim extremists with incompetent mms govt. but mms govt never used satan images.

India allowing U.S. jets to refuel has zero to do with this case. Here is a person who deliberately falsified the visa application knowing the illegality of her actions (after all she is in charge of similar documents from American citizens applying for visas to come to India). When you are in another country, you have to obey its laws. Plain and simple. Just because you are the Asst Consulate General it doesn't mean you are above the law. If anyone needs to apologize, it is her. Yet she plays the victim card and shows no remorse over having deliberately broken the law. It is a pity that so many Indians are up in arms over this.

The problem here is that most Indians dont believe that it is bad to "break the law" when it comes to labor. When the Corporations try to extract the maximum work with the least wages (they are only correct to the letter of the law), what is wrong in private citizens trying to get work done cheap? You are MAX are not going to hire a Hispanic to mow your lawn at $10/hr, or any handyman at minimum wage - if you can avoid it. Strictly speaking, those hiring (you, me or MAX) these handyman are supposed to withhold minimum wage, pay 8% Social security, yada yada per law. So in essence, we all break the law. God she paid $3.30/hr when the shopkeepers pay $1/hr and home health aids are paid $2 to 3/hr (the legals and those unemployable otherwise). How come no Chinese or African consulate staff is arrested, and how come the russians are not dragged to the court?

So there is no holy people here - everyone was/is doing something to fir their own agenda - to save money, get GC, get publicity, to score a point, etc....

India should charge this woman for filing different contracts and ask for accounting to ensure she spent all the money the Govt allotted her as Perk. Of course, that will never happen - given her SC status and the 1000s of crore corruption cases in India.

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

India should charge this woman for filing different contracts and ask for accounting to ensure she spent all the money the Govt allotted her as Perk. Of course, that will never happen - given her SC status and the 1000s of crore corruption cases in India.

You are right. She will never be held accountable. She will most likely return to India as a hero. That's the irony of this entire episode.

goodcitizn wrote:

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

India should charge this woman for filing different contracts and ask for accounting to ensure she spent all the money the Govt allotted her as Perk. Of course, that will never happen - given her SC status and the 1000s of crore corruption cases in India.

You are right. She will never be held accountable. She will most likely return to India as a hero. That's the irony of this entire episode.

Not sure about that. The US State Department spokesperson said that immunity would not apply retroactively with regard to DK's new post in the UN.

Hellsangel wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

India should charge this woman for filing different contracts and ask for accounting to ensure she spent all the money the Govt allotted her as Perk. Of course, that will never happen - given her SC status and the 1000s of crore corruption cases in India.

You are right. She will never be held accountable. She will most likely return to India as a hero. That's the irony of this entire episode.

Not sure about that. The US State Department spokesperson said that immunity would not apply retroactively with regard to DK's new post in the UN.

ROFL Bharara probably got a very unpleasant earful from Kerry already.

goodcitizn wrote:

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

India should charge this woman for filing different contracts and ask for accounting to ensure she spent all the money the Govt allotted her as Perk. Of course, that will never happen - given her SC status and the 1000s of crore corruption cases in India.

You are right. She will never be held accountable. She will most likely return to India as a hero. That's the irony of this entire episode.

GC - Are you being deliberately and selectively blind here not reading some comments on this forum if you cannot follow the Indian media. This is not a specific person or consular officer doing something wrong. She just did what every Indian consular official had been doing for ages. She just happened to be that person who got caught. It is an open thing that the State Department (or at the least the US Embassies in India) know about and are willing to let it pass for ages. This eager Attorney and the maid now broke that unwritten 'don't ask don't tell' thing and created the situation. So this specific Official in herself is not responsible individually and which is why the whole Indian MEA is at work now.

smArtha wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

India should charge this woman for filing different contracts and ask for accounting to ensure she spent all the money the Govt allotted her as Perk. Of course, that will never happen - given her SC status and the 1000s of crore corruption cases in India.

You are right. She will never be held accountable. She will most likely return to India as a hero. That's the irony of this entire episode.

GC - Are you being deliberately and selectively blind here not reading some comments on this forum if you cannot follow the Indian media. This is not a specific person or consular officer doing something wrong. She just did what every Indian consular official had been doing for ages. She just happened to be that person who got caught. It is an open thing that the State Department (or at the least the US Embassies in India) know about and are willing to let it pass for ages. This eager Attorney and the maid now broke that unwritten 'don't ask don't tell' thing and created the situation. So this specific Official in herself is not responsible individually and which is why the whole Indian MEA is at work now.

Is it your argument that, since many of her colleagues over the years have been guilty of the same offense but never got caught, she shouldn't be found guilty?

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/131219/news-current-affairs/article/india-tears-preet-bharara-defending-action-against-diplomat

The above link provides details if Indian response. they say that bharara's characterization of Indian legal system is unacceptable and arrogant. in the second page there is some additional detail communication.

once again bharara overstepped his bounds for self advancement and personal agenda.

Is it your argument that, since many of her colleagues over the years have been guilty of the same offense but never got caught, she shouldn't be found guilty?

That was my argument for your statement implying that she has to be accountable at an individual level. She doesn't have to be as this is an Institutionalized Practice. And some part of State Department is very much in the know how. If any, the US State Department and Indian MEA need to re-negotiate the unwritten policies that each have to adhere to. For their part I think the US State Dept did send hints to the Indian side when they sniffed that the Attorney has his focus on this violation. The Indian side, as is well known slept on that warning. If they heed to that in time this wouldn't have escalated.

smArtha wrote:

Is it your argument that, since many of her colleagues over the years have been guilty of the same offense but never got caught, she shouldn't be found guilty?

That was my argument for your statement implying that she has to be accountable at an individual level. She doesn't have to be as this is an Institutionalized Practice. And some part of State Department is very much in the know how. If any, the US State Department and Indian MEA need to re-negotiate the unwritten policies that each have to adhere to. For their part I think the US State Dept did send hints to the Indian side when they sniffed that the Attorney has his focus on this violation. The Indian side, as is well known slept on that warning. If they heed to that in time this wouldn't have escalated.

It is absurd to expect the Institution to be arrested (assuming it to be realistic) when it is the individual that broke the law.

Gc,
Usa pursuing case against devyani implies it is indicting Indian system. However such decision may require support from John Kerry or even barrack obama

there is a large class of indians who have had no systemic advantages, whose success in life is largely owed to meritocracy and hard work, who watch aghast and impotently while folks rape, pillage, and plunder the country. this woman's arrest and public dressing down is just a small salve to them. it is obvious why bharara is such a hero to such people.

and those of you who rail against bharara have either lost your marbles or you belong to the plundering class yourself. in either case, i have no sympathy for you. FU.

indians who support bharara and are ashamed of indian bureaucrats' corruptness are more patriotic IMO than those who defend this woman.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:there is a large class of indians who have had no systemic advantages, whose success in life is largely owed to meritocracy and hard work, who watch aghast and impotently while folks rape, pillage, and plunder the country. this woman's arrest and public dressing down is just a small salve to them. it is obvious why bharara is such a hero to such people.

and those of you who rail against bharara have either lost your marbles or you belong to the plundering class yourself. in either case, i have no sympathy for you. FU.

>>>> why so much anger?

I supported him initially. Once I found out that she was strip searched and then cavity searched, I got pissed off. She did not deserve that kind of treatment. The right thing to do is to boot her out of the country.

Rishi wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:there is a large class of indians who have had no systemic advantages, whose success in life is largely owed to meritocracy and hard work, who watch aghast and impotently while folks rape, pillage, and plunder the country. this woman's arrest and public dressing down is just a small salve to them. it is obvious why bharara is such a hero to such people.

and those of you who rail against bharara have either lost your marbles or you belong to the plundering class yourself. in either case, i have no sympathy for you. FU.

>>>> why so much anger?

I supported him initially. Once I found out that she was strip searched and then cavity searched, I got pissed off.  She did not deserve that kind of treatment. The right thing to do is to boot her out of the country.

>>
Your are not getting the point. Forget she is a woman and just look as detainee in terms of USMS. What if she had a knife/nail cutter or pills/poison which she might use it to harm herself. Then the entire India brigade would go after with even more vengeance. There are standard protocols for the safety of the detainee and the officers of USMS. Imagine you donot follow the orders of a cop who asked you stop late in the night while driving. If you get out before he comes near you or you move/wave your hands erratically he may shoot you.

FluteHolder wrote:

Rishi wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:there is a large class of indians who have had no systemic advantages, whose success in life is largely owed to meritocracy and hard work, who watch aghast and impotently while folks rape, pillage, and plunder the country. this woman's arrest and public dressing down is just a small salve to them. it is obvious why bharara is such a hero to such people.

and those of you who rail against bharara have either lost your marbles or you belong to the plundering class yourself. in either case, i have no sympathy for you. FU.

>>>> why so much anger?

I supported him initially. Once I found out that she was strip searched and then cavity searched, I got pissed off.  She did not deserve that kind of treatment. The right thing to do is to boot her out of the country.

>>
Your are not getting the point. Forget she is a woman and just look as detainee in terms of USMS. What if she had a knife/nail cutter or pills/poison which she might use it to harm herself. Then the entire India brigade would go after with even more vengeance. There are standard protocols for the safety of the detainee and the officers of USMS. Imagine you donot follow the orders of a cop who asked you stop late in the night while driving. If you get out before he comes near you or you move/wave your hands erratically he may shoot you.

>>> Are you saying that the entire India Brigade would have asked why the USMS did not strip search her?