american colleges aren't the best?

by bw Mon Jun 30, 2014 6:50 am

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/29/upshot/americans-think-we-have-the-worlds-best-colleges-we-dont.html?_r=0

by confuzzled dude Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:02 am

Hmm.. even those socialist canucks are ahead of us.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:36 am

This is very subjective.

If a kid is smart and top of the class, and wants to go to a "top" university, then US top schools are STILL the best.

But...but..the story ends there. Now comes the question of definition of TOP.

The tests are conducted mostly on the high schoolers. It is established that non-American systems "train" their students to "solve" math and science. Yes non-US K-12 students may be better prepared but that ends there.

Also, compare universities across the world LEAVING out the top 25 in each country. US - due to its size and long investment will come out far ahead. Just imagine can you mention any universities in India outside the top 25?

Are the graduates coming out the US schools better than graduates coming out of a similar ranked school in another country? A Nadella, Sikka, Pichai does not reflect the quality of Indian schools, for ex. Look at the avg Student Joe coming from Indian schools these days and avg Joe from US.

One thing is for sure. The standards in US schools has gone down over the last few decades - IMO.

by b_A Mon Jun 30, 2014 12:34 pm

The small scandinavian countries will always come on top when it comes to these kind of statistics. The reason is that they have a homogeneous population and they don't have a poor minority population to pull the averages down.

by nevada Mon Jun 30, 2014 12:56 pm

I think college education is free in Scandinavian countries and even in Germany it is free. A friend of mine went to Sweden to do some course, then took a visa to the US from there and landed in the US. According to him, it was easier than applying for US visa directly from India. And another friend studied for a few months in Germany, focusing specifically on SAP.

by b_A Mon Jun 30, 2014 1:08 pm

nevada wrote:I think college education is free in Scandinavian countries and even in Germany it is free. A friend of mine went to Sweden to do some course, then took a visa to the US from there and landed in the US. According to him, it was easier than applying for US visa directly from India. And another friend studied for a few months in Germany, focusing specifically on SAP.

Also because of the natural resources and tiny populations and socialist policies , college education is not a necessary requirement for good living. So , I am guessing only academically oriented people go to college.

by bw Mon Jun 30, 2014 6:02 pm

the main point of the article is the way the colleges are rated. student quality is not an important criterion in ranking them.

by b_A Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:25 pm

bw wrote:the main point of the article is the way the colleges are rated. student quality is not an important criterion in ranking them.

see the big table about math skills. Also,
from the article:

Only 18 percent of American adults with bachelor’s degrees score at the top two levels of numeracy, compared with the international average of 24 percent. Over one-third of American bachelor’s degree holders failed to reach Level 3 on the five-level Piaac scale, which means that they cannot perform math-related tasks that “require several steps and may involve the choice of problem-solving strategies.” Americans with associate’s and graduate degrees also lag behind their international peers.

American results on the literacy and technology tests were somewhat better, in the sense that they were only mediocre. American adults were eighth from the bottom in literacy, for instance. And recent college graduates look no better than older ones. Among people ages 16 to 29 with a bachelor’s degree or better, America ranks 16th out of 24 in numeracy. There is no reason to believe that American colleges are, on average, the best in the world.

by bw Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:49 pm

b_A wrote:
bw wrote:the main point of the article is the way the colleges are rated. student quality is not an important criterion in ranking them.

see the big table about math skills. Also,
from the article:

Only 18 percent of American adults with bachelor’s degrees score at the top two levels of numeracy, compared with the international average of 24 percent. Over one-third of American bachelor’s degree holders failed to reach Level 3 on the five-level Piaac scale, which means that they cannot perform math-related tasks that “require several steps and may involve the choice of problem-solving strategies.” Americans with associate’s and graduate degrees also lag behind their international peers.

American results on the literacy and technology tests were somewhat better, in the sense that they were only mediocre. American adults were eighth from the bottom in literacy, for instance. And recent college graduates look no better than older ones. Among people ages 16 to 29 with a bachelor’s degree or better, America ranks 16th out of 24 in numeracy. There is no reason to believe that American colleges are, on average, the best in the world.

i read this but doesn't he also say this? this kind of study is not usually done when rating colleges.

International university rankings, moreover, have little to do with education. Instead, they focus on universities as research institutions, using metrics such as the number of Nobel Prize winners on staff and journal articles published. A university could stop enrolling undergraduates with no effect on its score.
We see K-12 schools and colleges differently because we’re looking at two different yardsticks: the academic performance of the whole population of students in one case, the research performance of a small number of institutions in the other.

The fair way to compare the two systems, to each other and to systems in other countries, would be to conduct something like a PISA for higher education. That had never been done until late 2013, when the O.E.C.D. published exactly such a study.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:23 pm

b_A wrote:
bw wrote:the main point of the article is the way the colleges are rated. student quality is not an important criterion in ranking them.

see the big table about math skills. Also,
from the article:

Only 18 percent of American adults with bachelor’s degrees score at the top two levels of numeracy, compared with the international average of 24 percent. Over one-third of American bachelor’s degree holders failed to reach Level 3 on the five-level Piaac scale, which means that they cannot perform math-related tasks that “require several steps and may involve the choice of problem-solving strategies.” Americans with associate’s and graduate degrees also lag behind their international peers.

American results on the literacy and technology tests were somewhat better, in the sense that they were only mediocre. American adults were eighth from the bottom in literacy, for instance. And recent college graduates look no better than older ones. Among people ages 16 to 29 with a bachelor’s degree or better, America ranks 16th out of 24 in numeracy. There is no reason to believe that American colleges are, on average, the best in the world.

Most Americans are inherently weak in Mathematics. The Ruskies and Europeans are much better in that.

BUT, I can bet out of a 100 Indians, not more than 3 Indians know how to use a screw driver or build ANYTHING in a laboratory. That includes most top rankers from IIT. Same goes with the Chinkus from or Japs...give them a theme and ask them to come up with 3 or 4 days the next day...only the Americans will come up with something.

And that is more important in today's real world....

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:32 pm

Delhi University cut-offs for 3-yr computer science and B COM courses in some colleges are close to 100% marks.

The first cut-off list of DU for the third time touched the 100%-mark with three rank outsider colleges this time putting the ceiling at maximum for admission to its B.Sc (Computer Science) course.

And I bet these guys are all Geniuses and will beat the pants of top National merit scholars (most likely many ABCDs and Chinkus) from US.

....

by Propagandhi711 Tue Jul 01, 2014 9:34 am

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
b_A wrote:
bw wrote:the main point of the article is the way the colleges are rated. student quality is not an important criterion in ranking them.

see the big table about math skills. Also,
from the article:

Only 18 percent of American adults with bachelor’s degrees score at the top two levels of numeracy, compared with the international average of 24 percent. Over one-third of American bachelor’s degree holders failed to reach Level 3 on the five-level Piaac scale, which means that they cannot perform math-related tasks that “require several steps and may involve the choice of problem-solving strategies.” Americans with associate’s and graduate degrees also lag behind their international peers.

American results on the literacy and technology tests were somewhat better, in the sense that they were only mediocre. American adults were eighth from the bottom in literacy, for instance. And recent college graduates look no better than older ones. Among people ages 16 to 29 with a bachelor’s degree or better, America ranks 16th out of 24 in numeracy. There is no reason to believe that American colleges are, on average, the best in the world.

Most Americans are inherently weak in Mathematics. The Ruskies and Europeans are much better in that.

BUT, I can bet out of a 100 Indians, not more than 3 Indians know how to use a screw driver or build ANYTHING in a laboratory. That includes most top rankers from IIT. Same goes with the Chinkus from or Japs...give them a theme and ask them to come up with 3 or 4 days the next day...only the Americans will come up with something.

And that is more important in today's real world....

talking out of your ass as usual. I thought after the hummus==peanuts debacle you'd take a break from that but I thought wrong

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:21 am

Propagandhi711 wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
Most Americans are inherently weak in Mathematics. The Ruskies and Europeans are much better in that.

BUT, I can bet out of a 100 Indians, not more than 3 Indians know how to use a screw driver or build ANYTHING in a laboratory. That includes most top rankers from IIT. Same goes with the Chinkus from or Japs...give them a theme and ask them to come up with 3 or 4 days the next day...only the Americans will come up with something.

And that is more important in today's real world....

talking out of your ass as usual. I thought after the hummus==peanuts debacle you'd take a break from that but I thought wrong

1. We are talking about high schoolers and college grads.

2. I stand by what I said about Chinkus, Desis and Japs

3. I grind peanuts and add to hummus...adds much protein to it. Try it... Razz

P.S. US Ranking takes into account Student SAT scores, Admission rates, Graduation rates into its ranking. Dont think anyone takes Nobel counts in ranking.

by bw Tue Jul 01, 2014 6:52 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

3. I grind peanuts and add to hummus...adds much protein to it. Try it...

peanut buttery hummus? *shudder*

at times, i add chillies or sundried tomatoes when i make hummus.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:25 pm

bw wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

3. I grind peanuts and add to hummus...adds much protein to it. Try it...

peanut buttery hummus? *shudder*

at times, i add chillies or sundried tomatoes when i make hummus.

Dont you make Kadalaikai Chutney? it is nothing like peanut buttery...It actually has a texture similar to Hummus.

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