Upside down poems (and a little synthesis)

by Guest Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:05 am

I've read a little poetry, but these 'Upside down poems' of Kabir took me aback because interpreting them was so very difficult at least for me. They are called ulatbamsi (literally, poems in upside down language) in hindi. Linda Hess, in her 'Bijak of Kabir', explains ulatbamsi:

They intrigue because they are absurd, paradoxical, crazy, impenetrable, and yet they purport to be meaningful. Kabir's upside-down poems are part of a long tradition in India and can be related to similar expressions across the world. There are two main routes to understanding their strange symbols and assertions: study of esoteric traditions, and direct intuition. The first route is very complex, and the second is very elusive.

Attempts to explicate this poetry can easily go awry....

Upside down language should make you feel like a fool: that is part of its function.

-----
I'll post a few of these ulatbamsi poems of Kabir in subsequent posts.

Note for synthesis enthusiasts: Similar to ulatbamsi is a tradition in Kannada poetry where these poems are called bedagina vacanas or 'fancy poems'.

by Guest Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:28 am

Brother, I've seen some
astonishing sights:

a lion keeping watch
over pasturing cows;
a mother delivered
after her son was;
a guru prostrated
before his disciple;

fish spawning
on treetops;
a cat carrying away
a dog;
a gunny-sack
driving a bullock cart;
a buffalo going out to graze,
sitting on a horse;
a tree with its branches in the earth,
its roots in the sky;
a tree with flowering roots.

This verse, says Kabir,
is your key to the universe.
if you can figure it out.

------
Linda Hess writes: 'One appropriate response to poetry of this sort is to be struck dumb. Another is to laugh.'

Meanwhile, i invite people on this forum to try and interpret this poem. Perhaps working together we can unravel the mystery of Ulatbamsi poems.

by Guest Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:35 am

Is there a man so clever
Who'll explain this
Topsy-turvy Veda?

Water catches fire;
The blind can see;
A frog swallows five cobras.

A buffalo carries off a tiger;
A goat eats a wolf;
A deer kills a cheetah.

A quail gets the better of a falcon;
A mouse of a cat;
A jackal of a terrier.

Respectfully,
With palms folded,
I offer this song

To the Lord, says Kabir.

by Guest Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:39 am

What is this untellable tale about?
The ogress and the dog make bedroom eyes;
The big cat prowls the jungle;
In my family of five, all hell breaks loose.
Led by drum-beating rabbits, a herd
of antelopes mounts an attack;

The hunter's around, though all he does is watch.
The sea's ablaze, the forest's turned to ash.
But the fish are out looking for game.
The true pundit will get the story, says Kabir.
He's my guru. He'll save himself and save me too.

by Guest Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:11 am

Rashmun wrote:Brother, I've seen some
astonishing sights:

a lion keeping watch
over pasturing cows;
a mother delivered
after her son was;
a guru prostrated
before his disciple;

fish spawning
on treetops;
a cat carrying away
a dog;
a gunny-sack
driving a bullock cart;
a buffalo going out to graze,
sitting on a horse;
a tree with its branches in the earth,
its roots in the sky;
a tree with flowering roots.

This verse, says Kabir,
is your key to the universe.
if you can figure it out.

------
Linda Hess writes: 'One appropriate response to poetry of this sort is to be struck dumb. Another is to laugh.'

Meanwhile, i invite people on this forum to try and interpret this poem. Perhaps working together we can unravel the mystery of Ulatbamsi poems.

A very nice explanation of the upside-down tree image is found in Meherotra's book:

The image is taken straight from the Katha Upanisad: 'Its roots above, its branches below, this is the eternal banyan tree.' And it is quoted in the Bhagavad Gita: "They say the Banyan tree is imperishable, its roots above, its branches below."

The banyan in reality is an upside down tree, which grows branches that return down to earth again and again and become the roots and trunks of new trees with new branches so that eventually you have a forest of banyan trees.

The Upanisad uses the image of the banyan to to represent the divine substance (Brahman) from which all living creatures take root.

by Guest Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:32 am

Kabir was a weaver by profession. He was born as either a low caste hindu or a muslim (probably his parents were low caste hindus who had converted to Islam; some say he was born of hindu parents but had been adopted by a muslim couple), but he was accepted as disciple by Ramananda.

A very interesting person this Ramananda. He would accept low caste people as disciples. For instance, one of his disciples--Ravidas--was a low caste Chamaar who would go on to become the founder of an important religious sect. If we agree that Kabir was born muslim, Ramananda may have even been accepting some muslims as disciples. (There are well documented cases of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu accepting muslim disciples.)

For synthesis enthusiasts: Ramananda was born and spent his life in Uttar Pradesh. But he was a follower of the Ramanuja sect of Vedanta. Ramanuja of course was a Tamilian.

by chameli Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:08 am

Sometimes i wonder if Sant Kabir makes sense

u know some of these self realized souls speak in code language ..making no sense . they speak in many tongues too

Meher baba was one such .. heard of him ? well he did remain silnet for much of his life

anyway what i derived from sant Kabir's dohe or poems is that when all is in turmoil and u have reached the end of ur rope when u have given up hope of seeing God or experiencing him ..when everything is ulta sulta .... note not gulti ulti Smile

thats the time of ur deliverance ..

by Guest Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:49 am

chameli wrote:Sometimes i wonder if Sant Kabir makes sense

u know some of these self realized souls speak in code language ..making no sense . they speak in many tongues too

Meher baba was one such .. heard of him ? well he did remain silnet for much of his life

anyway what i derived from sant Kabir's dohe or poems is that when all is in turmoil and u have reached the end of ur rope when u have given up hope of seeing God or experiencing him ..when everything is ulta sulta .... note not gulti ulti

thats the time of ur deliverance ..

no i had never heard of Meher Baba. i think most of Kabir's poetry is straightforward; and not seemingly impenetrable like these upside down poems. and even these upside down poems can presumably be understood and explained by some expert. for instance, the upside-down tree image is explained in Meherotra's book very well in my opinion (i gave the relevant extract earlier).

but i also think that multiple interpretations might be possible for these upside down poems at least for some of the images.

by Guest Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:51 am

Rashmun wrote:Kabir was a weaver by profession. He was born as either a low caste hindu or a muslim (probably his parents were low caste hindus who had converted to Islam; some say he was born of hindu parents but had been adopted by a muslim couple), but he was accepted as disciple by Ramananda.

A very interesting person this Ramananda. He would accept low caste people as disciples. For instance, one of his disciples--Ravidas--was a low caste Chamaar who would go on to become the founder of an important religious sect. If we agree that Kabir was born muslim, Ramananda may have even been accepting some muslims as disciples. (There are well documented cases of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu accepting muslim disciples.)

For synthesis enthusiasts: Ramananda was born and spent his life in Uttar Pradesh. But he was a follower of the Ramanuja sect of Vedanta. Ramanuja of course was a Tamilian.

Ramananda was a brahmin and one has to wonder whether he faced social boycott for going against the existing social norms by accepting low caste hindus and also (presumably) muslims as his disciples. He would also accept women as his disciples.

it is said that Kabir faced social boycott in his life by both orthodox hindus and orthdox muslims because he would attack orthodox hinduism and islam in his poetry.

by chameli Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:55 am

i do understand the inverted tree image and what it stands for .yes.the rest i don't but i refuse to get intimidated

babas love to talk in circles and high falutin language

wasnt Krishnamurti a good example ? but u are right

as a rule Kabir spoke the truth and simply

Thiruvalluvar was another genius

hope i have spelt him right or will have the Tamil clan yapping at my heels

by Guest Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:36 pm

http://thinkloud65.wordpress.com/2011/10/30/son-comes-before-motherkabir/

by Guest Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:44 pm

Rashmun wrote:http://thinkloud65.wordpress.com/2011/10/30/son-comes-before-motherkabir/

notice the interpretation of the upside down tree image given at this blog is different from the one given in Meherotra's book. the blog also explains the other images of that poem very well in my opinion.

http://thinkloud65.wordpress.com/2011/10/30/son-comes-before-motherkabir/

by harharmahadev Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:51 pm

I got one...

Kabir sat on a tree
With his dick hanging out...
Whoever needs however much..
can cut cut and take away!

by charvaka Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:57 pm

Rashmun wrote:They intrigue because they are absurd, paradoxical, crazy, impenetrable, and yet they purport to be meaningful. ...

Attempts to explicate this poetry can easily go awry....

In that case, you should reclassify your path-breaking emoticon analysis as an upside-down poem...

by Guest Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:04 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:They intrigue because they are absurd, paradoxical, crazy, impenetrable, and yet they purport to be meaningful. ...

Attempts to explicate this poetry can easily go awry....
In that case, you should reclassify your path-breaking emoticon analysis as an upside-down poem...

Show some class Charvaka. Is this a thread to start fighting with me in a cheap manner?

by Guest Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:18 pm

Rashmun wrote:
Rashmun wrote:http://thinkloud65.wordpress.com/2011/10/30/son-comes-before-motherkabir/

notice the interpretation of the upside down tree image given at this blog is different from the one given in Meherotra's book. the blog also explains the other images of that poem very well in my opinion.

http://thinkloud65.wordpress.com/2011/10/30/son-comes-before-motherkabir/

there seems to be a slight variation in the original kabir poem (in hindi) used by meherotra and by the writer of the blog. this is explained by virtue of the fact that kabir was an oral poet (he would not write down any of his verses) and hence there are multiple rescensions (each with slight variations) of his poems now available to us.

by doofus_maximus Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:24 pm

Rashmun wrote:
charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:They intrigue because they are absurd, paradoxical, crazy, impenetrable, and yet they purport to be meaningful. ...

Attempts to explicate this poetry can easily go awry....
In that case, you should reclassify your path-breaking emoticon analysis as an upside-down poem...

Show some class Charvaka. Is this a thread to start fighting with me in a cheap manner?

Synthesizer alone decides whether a thread is worthy enough to start a fight or not.

by Guest Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:28 pm

doofus_maximus wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:They intrigue because they are absurd, paradoxical, crazy, impenetrable, and yet they purport to be meaningful. ...

Attempts to explicate this poetry can easily go awry....
In that case, you should reclassify your path-breaking emoticon analysis as an upside-down poem...

Show some class Charvaka. Is this a thread to start fighting with me in a cheap manner?

Synthesizer alone decides whether a thread is worthy enough to start a fight or not.

Well, i could have started a fight in your Quiz/trivia threads as well. but there is no reason why we we should fight in these kind of threads when there are so many other threads where we can easily do so.

by Hellsangel Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:31 pm

doofus_maximus wrote:
Synthesizer alone decides whether a thread is worthy enough to start a fight or not.

Careful! You are about to be dotted.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:37 pm

doofus_maximus wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:They intrigue because they are absurd, paradoxical, crazy, impenetrable, and yet they purport to be meaningful. ...

Attempts to explicate this poetry can easily go awry....
In that case, you should reclassify your path-breaking emoticon analysis as an upside-down poem...

Show some class Charvaka. Is this a thread to start fighting with me in a cheap manner?

Synthesizer alone decides whether a thread is worthy enough to start a fight or not.

Ii resent your remark. Rashmun NEVER starts a fight, Even if he does it is only in jest. But, not all fights started by him are in jest. Some are serious. Even the serious ones he never started unless he is dragged in by others, in which case he has no option but to start a fight in any thread.

Hope it clear to you and please refrain from falsely accusing the Legand.

by Guest Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:38 pm

Rashmun wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Rashmun wrote:http://thinkloud65.wordpress.com/2011/10/30/son-comes-before-motherkabir/

notice the interpretation of the upside down tree image given at this blog is different from the one given in Meherotra's book. the blog also explains the other images of that poem very well in my opinion.

http://thinkloud65.wordpress.com/2011/10/30/son-comes-before-motherkabir/

there seems to be a slight variation in the original kabir poem (in hindi) used by meherotra and by the writer of the blog. this is explained by virtue of the fact that kabir was an oral poet (he would not write down any of his verses) and hence there are multiple rescensions (each with slight variations) of his poems now available to us.

i find the interpretation of the upside down tree given in the blog to be more appealing. the reason is that kabir often criticizes scriptural knowledge and slams both the Vedas and the Koran. (His angst is directed against bookish knowledge.) so it is a little odd for him to knowingly borrow imagery from the Upanisads and the Gita.

by chameli Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:59 pm

rashmun,

perhaps Kabir arrived at the analogy of an upside down tree on his own

I doubt if he read the holy books or was allowed to... given his caste

I find charvaka's comments here disturbing

Is he the administrator here or isnt he ? he should restrain himself from making fun of the topic beautifully as you have posted it

by Guest Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:05 pm

chameli wrote:rashmun,

perhaps Kabir arrived at the analogy of an upside down tree on his own

I doubt if he read the holy books or was allowed to... given his caste

I find charvaka's comments here disturbing

Is he the administrator here or isnt he ? he should restrain himself from making fun of the topic beautifully as you have posted it

good point about kabir being low caste . but remember that ramananda had accepted kabir as his disciple. so kabir must have learned at least something about the Vedas from Ramananda who belonged to the Ramanuja sect of Vedanta.

Ramananda himself must have been a very impressive figure. He is said to have had several outstanding disciples including kabir; and also ravidas (founder of the ravidasia sect) who was a chamaar. Ramananda would accept low caste hindus and perhaps also muslims (if we agree that kabir was born to low caste hindus who had subsequently converted to islam) and also women as his disciples. one wonders whether Ramananda was boycotted by upper caste hindus of the time because of his insouciant attitude towards the caste system. Perhaps he was able to get away with it because everyone accepted the fact that he was a very spiritual person.

by chameli Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:06 pm

charvaka,

are we allowed to post here or not ?
according to ur whims will each post be considerd an object of ridicule or praise ?

and then will ur chamchaas like scavengers finish off the meal?

I hope u understand Kabir and his dohas .If not make an attempt to .but don't deride other peoples' capabilities .

more and more this forum is looking lawless and aimless ...like a ship without a rudder

by Hellsangel Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:18 pm

chameli wrote:charvaka,

are we allowed to post here or not ?

Tranny, you are posting here, aren't you?

chameli wrote:according to ur whims will each post be considerd an object of ridicule or praise ?

Anything that can be mocked will be mocked. The law of the internet.

chameli wrote:and then will ur chamchaas like scavengers finish off the meal?

All hail the great glut Admin! We, his minions will pick your bones clean.

chameli wrote:

I hope u understand Kabir and his dohas .If not make an attempt to .but don't deride other peoples' capabilities .

What capabilities?

chameli wrote:

more and more this forum is looking lawless and aimless ...like a ship without a rudder

Welcome to the Wild Wild ~~West~~ Web!

by charvaka Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:20 pm

chameli wrote:charvaka,

are we allowed to post here or not ?

You are.

chameli wrote:according to ur whims will each post be considerd an object of ridicule or praise ?

I will decide based entirely on my whims which posts I will respond to. Remember, I am a poster here as much as you are, and have just as much of a right to participate here.

by charvaka Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:21 pm

Rashmun wrote:
doofus_maximus wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:They intrigue because they are absurd, paradoxical, crazy, impenetrable, and yet they purport to be meaningful. ...

Attempts to explicate this poetry can easily go awry....
In that case, you should reclassify your path-breaking emoticon analysis as an upside-down poem...

Show some class Charvaka. Is this a thread to start fighting with me in a cheap manner?

Synthesizer alone decides whether a thread is worthy enough to start a fight or not.

Well, i could have started a fight in your Quiz/trivia threads as well. but there is no reason why we we should fight in these kind of threads when there are so many other threads where we can easily do so.

Is this a "personal subjective opinion" or an "absolute opinion?" My response depends on that.

by charvaka Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:24 pm

Rashmun wrote:
charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:They intrigue because they are absurd, paradoxical, crazy, impenetrable, and yet they purport to be meaningful. ...

Attempts to explicate this poetry can easily go awry....
In that case, you should reclassify your path-breaking emoticon analysis as an upside-down poem...

Show some class Charvaka. Is this a thread to start fighting with me in a cheap manner?

Not at all. That's why I am not fighting with you in a cheap manner. I am just offering you a suggestion to classify your personal subjective opinions and absolute opinions.

by Guest Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:25 pm

charvaka wrote:
chameli wrote:charvaka,

are we allowed to post here or not ?
You are.
chameli wrote:according to ur whims will each post be considerd an object of ridicule or praise ?
I will decide based entirely on my whims which posts I will respond to. Remember, I am a poster here as much as you are, and have just as much of a right to participate here.

The point is that an Admin of a forum has to operate not in a petty manner but in an exemplary manner. The way you are behaving--trying to initiate a fight in a cheap manner--in a thread where Kabir's poetry is being discussed will encourage other posters to start posting disruptive messages on threads like the Trivia/Quiz threads.

by Hellsangel Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:27 pm

Somebody please explain to him the difference between adminstrator and moderator one more time!

by charvaka Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:28 pm

Rashmun wrote:
charvaka wrote:
chameli wrote:charvaka,

are we allowed to post here or not ?
You are.
chameli wrote:according to ur whims will each post be considerd an object of ridicule or praise ?
I will decide based entirely on my whims which posts I will respond to. Remember, I am a poster here as much as you are, and have just as much of a right to participate here.

The point is that an Admin of a forum has to operate not in a petty manner but in an exemplary manner. The way you are behaving--trying to initiate a fight in a cheap manner--in a thread where Kabir's poetry is being discussed will encourage other posters to start posting disruptive messages on threads like the Trivia/Quiz threads.

Thank you for taking the advice I offered you. Looks like angle 1 is active again. Diversify your portfolio and go after some of those other angles.

My posts in this thread are in my individual capacity as charvaka the user. I haven't logged in as Admin in 2012 at all, so the fact that I have the ability to login as Admin has nothing to do with any of my comments.

PS: BTW, is that a "personal subjective opinion" or an "absolute opinion"?

by chameli Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:32 pm

charvaka,

I didn't ask which poster u will or will not respond to.

Neither did I question your participation

I asked why you are making fun of an entirely serious subject ... of a Saint and his sayings .

Do u agree u carry some responsibility as to what you write here a bit more than some of your irreverent friends ?

by charvaka Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:34 pm

chameli wrote:I asked why you are making fun of an entirely serious subject ... of a Saint and his sayings .

I wasn't making fun of Kabir. I liked the Kabir poems I have read, and remember some of them. I was making fun of Rashmun.

chameli wrote:Do u agree u carry some responsibility as to what you write here a bit more than some of your irreverent friends ?

No, I am just a poster. Like everyone else. I don't even login as admin anymore, so the fact that I can is irrelevant to the content of my posts here.

by Guest Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:35 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
charvaka wrote:
chameli wrote:charvaka,

are we allowed to post here or not ?
You are.
chameli wrote:according to ur whims will each post be considerd an object of ridicule or praise ?
I will decide based entirely on my whims which posts I will respond to. Remember, I am a poster here as much as you are, and have just as much of a right to participate here.

The point is that an Admin of a forum has to operate not in a petty manner but in an exemplary manner. The way you are behaving--trying to initiate a fight in a cheap manner--in a thread where Kabir's poetry is being discussed will encourage other posters to start posting disruptive messages on threads like the Trivia/Quiz threads.
Thank you for taking the advice I offered you. Looks like angle 1 is active again. Diversify your portfolio and go after some of those other angles.

My posts in this thread are in my individual capacity as charvaka the user. I haven't logged in as Admin in 2012 at all, so the fact that I have the ability to login as Admin has nothing to do with any of my comments.

Even in your individual capacity as poster, you have no business to try initiating cheap fights in a thread where Kabir's poetry is being discussed for the simple reason that other posters would think that it is quite acceptable to initiate cheap fights in a cricket thread or a quiz/trivia thread. More so because you are the Admin of this forum.

by charvaka Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:36 pm

Rashmun wrote:

Even in your individual capacity as poster, you have no business to try initiating cheap fights in a thread where Kabir's poetry is being discussed for the simple reason that other posters would think that it is quite acceptable to initiate cheap fights in a cricket thread or a quiz/trivia thread. More so because you are the Admin of this forum.

Is this your "personal subjective opinion?" Sounds like it.

by chameli Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:40 pm

charvaka,

it doesnt matter how u log in .everyone knows u are the moderator administrator both rolled into one.You have been praised and respected enough for opening this forum and chat

Now u continue to be reckless and write irresponsibly other posts ( threads ) here will undergo the risk of being hijacked

the anarchy here grows daily thanks to a very biased and opinionated executor

by charvaka Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:42 pm

chameli wrote:charvaka,

it doesnt matter how u log in .everyone knows u are the moderator administrator both rolled into one.You have been praised and respected enough for opening this forum and chat

Now u continue to be reckless and write irresponsibly other posts ( threads ) here will undergo the risk of being hijacked

the anarchy here grows daily thanks to a very biased and opinionated executor

As I see it there is no "government" on this forum, so anarchy is the state we were aiming for in the first place.

by chameli Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:52 pm

charvaka,

u say you wanted to make fun of Rashmun not his post but why do it on a perfectly lovely topic as Kabir?

send him a few nasty messages instead

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:25 am

Rashmun wrote:

Meanwhile, i invite people on this forum to try and interpret this poem. Perhaps working together we can unravel the mystery of Ulatbamsi poems.

others have interpreted them here. see for your"self":

http://forums.sulekha.com/forums/coffeehouse/analyzing-the-upside-down-poems-of-kabir-1131308.htm#1131335

by Guest Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:39 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Rashmun wrote:

Meanwhile, i invite people on this forum to try and interpret this poem. Perhaps working together we can unravel the mystery of Ulatbamsi poems.

others have interpreted them here. see for your"self":

http://forums.sulekha.com/forums/coffeehouse/analyzing-the-upside-down-poems-of-kabir-1131308.htm#1131335

do you sometimes remember with nostalgia your fights with TS and mf?

by Merlot Daruwala Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:48 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Rashmun wrote:

Meanwhile, i invite people on this forum to try and interpret this poem. Perhaps working together we can unravel the mystery of Ulatbamsi poems.

others have interpreted them here. see for your"self":

[url=http://forums.sulekha.com/forums/coffeehouse/analyzing-the-upside-down-poems-of-kabir-1131308.htm#1131335

http://forums.sulekha.com/forums/coffeehouse/analyzing-the-upside-down-poems-of-kabir-1131308.htm#1131335[/quote[/url]]

Bwahaha..thanks for the weekend entertainment.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:46 am

my interpretation of these poems is that kabir is doing ulti like a lot of gultis.

by charvaka Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:24 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote: my interpretation of these poems is that kabir is doing ulti like a lot of gultis.

Could it be possible that he is a gulti actually? Then the claim that AP is the heartland of eminent Hindi poets would make sense. Any body who doubts this may have to eat their words when Congress wins the next elections and declares him a Gulti.

by Hellsangel Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:41 pm

Rashman needs an obsession to keep him going. If it is not Akbar or Will Durant, it is Kabir.

PS: I think he was also obsessed with you, great glut Admin.

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