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Is regionalism and rise of regional parties a worry for India?
by Guest Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:12 pm
I do not feel happy about this situation. I have nothing against the
Shiromani Akali Dal (SAD) or Samajwadi Party (SP), I congratulate
them on their victory, but I am worried about a lurking danger that
the future holds. Look at the broad picture. Regional parties are
getting stronger, but their viewpoints remain naturally limited. The
SAD cannot look beyond Punjab. Be it Mayawati or Mulayam Singh, her or
his view is limited to UP. So also, Mamata Banerjee’s to West Bengal,
Naveen Patnaik’s to Odisha, and Jayalalithaa’s or Karunanidhi’s to
Tamil Nadu. The very name of Chandrababu Naidu’s party in Andhra
Pradesh is Telugu Desam. Even Sharad Pawar of the Nationalist Congress
Party will always put his state of Maharashtra before anything else.
This is calamitous for the country.
There are lessons in history. Many parts of India have suffered the
depradations of invaders without other parts of the country rising to
resist it together. I am not against regional parties, but I am not
sure whether they have an all-India perspective, whether they can rise
above their regional identities and consequent pride.
This country needs political parties that have an India-wide
existence and vision. Only then will a rebellion in Manipur or an
earthquake in Kashmir or aggression against Kerala be properly
addressed, as part of a common commitment and sense of duty. This is
why I am sorry to see the debacle of India’s two all-India parties.
http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/voices/the-bjp-has-forgotten-its-very-basis
Shiromani Akali Dal (SAD) or Samajwadi Party (SP), I congratulate
them on their victory, but I am worried about a lurking danger that
the future holds. Look at the broad picture. Regional parties are
getting stronger, but their viewpoints remain naturally limited. The
SAD cannot look beyond Punjab. Be it Mayawati or Mulayam Singh, her or
his view is limited to UP. So also, Mamata Banerjee’s to West Bengal,
Naveen Patnaik’s to Odisha, and Jayalalithaa’s or Karunanidhi’s to
Tamil Nadu. The very name of Chandrababu Naidu’s party in Andhra
Pradesh is Telugu Desam. Even Sharad Pawar of the Nationalist Congress
Party will always put his state of Maharashtra before anything else.
This is calamitous for the country.
There are lessons in history. Many parts of India have suffered the
depradations of invaders without other parts of the country rising to
resist it together. I am not against regional parties, but I am not
sure whether they have an all-India perspective, whether they can rise
above their regional identities and consequent pride.
This country needs political parties that have an India-wide
existence and vision. Only then will a rebellion in Manipur or an
earthquake in Kashmir or aggression against Kerala be properly
addressed, as part of a common commitment and sense of duty. This is
why I am sorry to see the debacle of India’s two all-India parties.
http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/voices/the-bjp-has-forgotten-its-very-basis
Guest- Guest
Re: Is regionalism and rise of regional parties a worry for India?
by Guest Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:38 pm
Until
recently, the rise of these smaller state and regional parties was
regarded as a positive development, one that embodied the
democratisation of Indian politics and reflected the emergence of
lower-caste voters as a powerful electoral force. Under the old Congress
system, a set of vertical, clientelistic relations structured the
electorate: local landlords, industrialists and moneylenders used their
dependents—tenants and labourers—as vote banks. But when lower castes
established their own parties in the 1980s and 1990s, this efficient
pyramid began to disintegrate. This social and political shift was the
result of several factors: decades of reservations for the Dalits and of
socialist politicisation among other lower castes, as well as the
erosion of caste hierarchies that accompanied the increased economic
autonomy of the peasantry after the Green Revolution. Factionalism à la Congress also helped, since upper-caste leaders recruited—and politicised—foot soldiers among the plebeians.
Along with the emergence of low
caste parties, overall turnout began to rise, as plebeian voters—with
the help of the Election Commission—began to stand up to intimidation
meant to keep them from the polls. Turnout reached unprecedented highs
in UP last month, and the trend holds across the country. In fact, the
demographic profile of the Indian electorate is exceptional among
democracies: almost everywhere else, rich voters have a higher rate of
participation than poor voters; here, the poorer the citizen, the more
likely they are to vote.
The growing clout of lower-caste
parties led to both vernacularisation—a turn away from elite idioms,
including English—and decentralisation. The days of Indira Gandhi
misusing President’s Rule to disband state assemblies faded into the
distant past, as state parties were now needed to keep ruling coalitions
in power at the centre. The smaller parties served, at least
theoretically, as a balance against the excessive concentration of
authority in Delhi, while their larger partners tried to be
accommodating to ensure governments remained in office for their full
term. And voters benefited from what the first-past-the-post system is
supposed to guarantee: a bipolar party system offering citizens a clear
choice.
But the weakening of the centre,
which once seemed a desirable outcome, has now reached a critical
point. The United Progressive Alliance government today is not only
paralysed by differences between the left and right wings of the
Congress, it is captive to the whims of the state parties, which appear
to have little regard for the national interest—witness the endless
debate on the National Counter-Terrorism Centre—and even the rule of
law.
The state parties defend their
actions by invoking federalism, which has been one of the most
legitimate “isms” in India since the mid-1980s—around when the Sarkaria
Commission on centre-state relations began its work. In fact, Rajiv
Gandhi was the first person to promote federalism, in Punjab and Assam,
where his mother had demonstrated the excesses of centralisation. After
years of dysfunction domination from New Delhi—in a country allergic to
centralised authority, where even imperial unity had been rare over the
centuries—the pendulum was bound to swing back to the other extreme.
But small, it turns out, is not
necessarily beautiful. Many state parties are under the control of
authoritarian leaders—in some cases, plutocrats exploiting their own
states while the centre stands by silently, fearful of losing their
support. These feudal lords may have thrived as India democratised, but
they rarely practice democracy within their own parties, whose
second-line leadership often consists of family members. Heirs of
regional bosses have assumed power from fathers or fathers-in-law and
become chief ministers in Haryana, Karnataka, Andhra Pradesh, Orissa,
UP, Jammu and Kashmir, and Punjab.
Twenty years have passed since
the short-lived Third Front experiment (1996-98) when, under the aegis
of two improbable PMs, Deve Gowda and IK Gujral, an unlikely coalition
rallied around the Janata Dal and the communists with the outside
support of the Congress. The next Lok Sabha elections seem unlikely to
deliver a sizable mandate for one of the national parties—which raises a
series of questions about the potential for stable governments at the
centre. Will national parties be able to hold on to pivotal positions
and overcome paralysis? Will state parties form pre-electoral alliances
and contest elections as a bloc, or will we be returned to the opaque
post-election horse-trading that shaped coalitions between 1989 and
1999—a decade when prime ministers remained in office for an average of
two years?
India is once again at a
crossroads. On one hand, fragmentation along party lines seems to be the
price to pay for democratisation. On the other, the regional parties
are not particularly democratic and governance suffers from their whims.
It took 10 years for the country to adjust to the decline of the
Congress—between 1989 and 1999 India had a PM every two years. Since
then, parties have learnt the art of coalition politics and stability
has prevailed. The new challenge looks like a step further in the same
direction: now that state-parties are centre-stage, they need to be
upgraded in terms of internal democracy and to learn how to work on
behalf of the national interest.
http://www.caravanmagazine.in/Story/1348/Democracy-by-Fragments--.html
recently, the rise of these smaller state and regional parties was
regarded as a positive development, one that embodied the
democratisation of Indian politics and reflected the emergence of
lower-caste voters as a powerful electoral force. Under the old Congress
system, a set of vertical, clientelistic relations structured the
electorate: local landlords, industrialists and moneylenders used their
dependents—tenants and labourers—as vote banks. But when lower castes
established their own parties in the 1980s and 1990s, this efficient
pyramid began to disintegrate. This social and political shift was the
result of several factors: decades of reservations for the Dalits and of
socialist politicisation among other lower castes, as well as the
erosion of caste hierarchies that accompanied the increased economic
autonomy of the peasantry after the Green Revolution. Factionalism à la Congress also helped, since upper-caste leaders recruited—and politicised—foot soldiers among the plebeians.
Along with the emergence of low
caste parties, overall turnout began to rise, as plebeian voters—with
the help of the Election Commission—began to stand up to intimidation
meant to keep them from the polls. Turnout reached unprecedented highs
in UP last month, and the trend holds across the country. In fact, the
demographic profile of the Indian electorate is exceptional among
democracies: almost everywhere else, rich voters have a higher rate of
participation than poor voters; here, the poorer the citizen, the more
likely they are to vote.
The growing clout of lower-caste
parties led to both vernacularisation—a turn away from elite idioms,
including English—and decentralisation. The days of Indira Gandhi
misusing President’s Rule to disband state assemblies faded into the
distant past, as state parties were now needed to keep ruling coalitions
in power at the centre. The smaller parties served, at least
theoretically, as a balance against the excessive concentration of
authority in Delhi, while their larger partners tried to be
accommodating to ensure governments remained in office for their full
term. And voters benefited from what the first-past-the-post system is
supposed to guarantee: a bipolar party system offering citizens a clear
choice.
But the weakening of the centre,
which once seemed a desirable outcome, has now reached a critical
point. The United Progressive Alliance government today is not only
paralysed by differences between the left and right wings of the
Congress, it is captive to the whims of the state parties, which appear
to have little regard for the national interest—witness the endless
debate on the National Counter-Terrorism Centre—and even the rule of
law.
The state parties defend their
actions by invoking federalism, which has been one of the most
legitimate “isms” in India since the mid-1980s—around when the Sarkaria
Commission on centre-state relations began its work. In fact, Rajiv
Gandhi was the first person to promote federalism, in Punjab and Assam,
where his mother had demonstrated the excesses of centralisation. After
years of dysfunction domination from New Delhi—in a country allergic to
centralised authority, where even imperial unity had been rare over the
centuries—the pendulum was bound to swing back to the other extreme.
But small, it turns out, is not
necessarily beautiful. Many state parties are under the control of
authoritarian leaders—in some cases, plutocrats exploiting their own
states while the centre stands by silently, fearful of losing their
support. These feudal lords may have thrived as India democratised, but
they rarely practice democracy within their own parties, whose
second-line leadership often consists of family members. Heirs of
regional bosses have assumed power from fathers or fathers-in-law and
become chief ministers in Haryana, Karnataka, Andhra Pradesh, Orissa,
UP, Jammu and Kashmir, and Punjab.
Twenty years have passed since
the short-lived Third Front experiment (1996-98) when, under the aegis
of two improbable PMs, Deve Gowda and IK Gujral, an unlikely coalition
rallied around the Janata Dal and the communists with the outside
support of the Congress. The next Lok Sabha elections seem unlikely to
deliver a sizable mandate for one of the national parties—which raises a
series of questions about the potential for stable governments at the
centre. Will national parties be able to hold on to pivotal positions
and overcome paralysis? Will state parties form pre-electoral alliances
and contest elections as a bloc, or will we be returned to the opaque
post-election horse-trading that shaped coalitions between 1989 and
1999—a decade when prime ministers remained in office for an average of
two years?
India is once again at a
crossroads. On one hand, fragmentation along party lines seems to be the
price to pay for democratisation. On the other, the regional parties
are not particularly democratic and governance suffers from their whims.
It took 10 years for the country to adjust to the decline of the
Congress—between 1989 and 1999 India had a PM every two years. Since
then, parties have learnt the art of coalition politics and stability
has prevailed. The new challenge looks like a step further in the same
direction: now that state-parties are centre-stage, they need to be
upgraded in terms of internal democracy and to learn how to work on
behalf of the national interest.
http://www.caravanmagazine.in/Story/1348/Democracy-by-Fragments--.html
Guest- Guest
Re: Is regionalism and rise of regional parties a worry for India?
by Kayalvizhi Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:48 pm
This shows India is not a country but an artificial entity created by British. The natuiral aafinity is towards Telugu, Kerala, TN etc.
RaShmun,
Thanks for the ppost
RaShmun,
Thanks for the ppost
Kayalvizhi- Posts : 3659
Join date : 2011-05-16
Re: Is regionalism and rise of regional parties a worry for India?
by Guest Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:50 pm
Kayalvizhi wrote:This shows India is not a country but an artificial entity created by British. The natuiral aafinity is towards Telugu, Kerala, TN etc.
RaShmun,
Thanks for the ppost
India has been around for thousands of years in the sense that culturally, despite the numerous languages, we are one unit. An example is the literature that binds all of India together. Literature like the Ramayana and Mahabharata.
Guest- Guest
Re: Is regionalism and rise of regional parties a worry for India?
by Kayalvizhi Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:52 pm
>> Heirs of regional bosses have assumed power from fathers or fathers-in-law and become chief ministers in Haryana, Karnataka, Andhra Pradesh, Orissa, UP, Jammu and Kashmir, and Punjab.
Like Nehru to daughter Indira to son Rajiv to wife Sonia ti son Rahul?
Like Nehru to daughter Indira to son Rajiv to wife Sonia ti son Rahul?
Kayalvizhi- Posts : 3659
Join date : 2011-05-16
Re: Is regionalism and rise of regional parties a worry for India?
by Guest Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:53 pm
Kayalvizhi wrote:>> Heirs of regional bosses have assumed power from fathers or fathers-in-law and become chief ministers in Haryana, Karnataka, Andhra Pradesh, Orissa, UP, Jammu and Kashmir, and Punjab.
Like Nehru to daughter Indira to son Rajiv to wife Sonia ti son Rahul?
What about Karunanidhi and his family?
Guest- Guest
Re: Is regionalism and rise of regional parties a worry for India?
by Kayalvizhi Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:54 pm
>> India has been around for thousands of years in the sense that culturally
Show me evidence. Vedic Hinduism of old is different from Tamil Saivam and Maaliyam. Culturally different
Show me evidence. Vedic Hinduism of old is different from Tamil Saivam and Maaliyam. Culturally different
Last edited by Kayalvizhi on Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
Kayalvizhi- Posts : 3659
Join date : 2011-05-16
Re: Is regionalism and rise of regional parties a worry for India?
by Kayalvizhi Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:55 pm
>> What about Karunanidhi and his family?
What about it??
What about it??
Kayalvizhi- Posts : 3659
Join date : 2011-05-16
Re: Is regionalism and rise of regional parties a worry for India?
by Guest Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:01 pm
Kayalvizhi wrote:>> India has been around for thousands of years in the sense that culturally
Show me evidence. Vedic Hinduism of old is different from Tamil Saivisam and Maaliyam. Culturally different
Kambaramayanam would not have been possible without Valmiki Ramayan. Likewise the Krishna songs of Andal refer to a God who is believed by traditional Hindus to have been born and brought up in North India (specifically the Mathura-Vrindavan region in Uttar Pradesh).
At least some of the schools of Tamil Shaivism came to Tamil Nadu from Kashmir when some Tamilians went to Kashmir to learn Shaivism there and then brought the philosophy of Shaivism to Tamil Nadu.
Guest- Guest
Re: Is regionalism and rise of regional parties a worry for India?
by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:04 pm
regionalism and regional parties are not the problem but a potential quixotic and authoritarian central rule that wants to focus on irrelevant things like a national language, a national salute, a national style of farting and sneezing, a national food, a national style of humping etc. definitely is a problem.
MaxEntropy_Man- Posts : 14702
Join date : 2011-04-28
Re: Is regionalism and rise of regional parties a worry for India?
by Kayalvizhi Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:05 pm
>> 
Re: Is regionalism and rise of regional parties a worry for India?
by Rashmun Today at 1:01 am
+
----
-
<BLOCKQUOTE>
Kayalvizhi wrote:>> India has been around for thousands of years in the sense that culturally
Show me evidence. Vedic Hinduism of old is different from Tamil Saivisam and Maaliyam. Culturally different</BLOCKQUOTE>
Kambaramayanam would not have been possible without Valmiki Ramayan. Likewise the Krishna songs of Andal refer to a God who is believed by traditional Hindus to have been born and brought up in North India (specifically the Mathura-Vrindavan region in Uttar Pradesh).
At least some of the schools of Tamil Shaivism came to Tamil Nadu from Kashmir when some Tamilians went to Kashmir to learn Shaivism there and then brought the philosophy of Shaivism to Tamil Nadu.
SAivam and Maaliyam orginated in TN. Others used and abused it.
Re: Is regionalism and rise of regional parties a worry for India? by Rashmun Today at 1:01 am+
----
-
<BLOCKQUOTE>
Kayalvizhi wrote:>> India has been around for thousands of years in the sense that culturally
Show me evidence. Vedic Hinduism of old is different from Tamil Saivisam and Maaliyam. Culturally different</BLOCKQUOTE>
Kambaramayanam would not have been possible without Valmiki Ramayan. Likewise the Krishna songs of Andal refer to a God who is believed by traditional Hindus to have been born and brought up in North India (specifically the Mathura-Vrindavan region in Uttar Pradesh).
At least some of the schools of Tamil Shaivism came to Tamil Nadu from Kashmir when some Tamilians went to Kashmir to learn Shaivism there and then brought the philosophy of Shaivism to Tamil Nadu.
SAivam and Maaliyam orginated in TN. Others used and abused it.
Kayalvizhi- Posts : 3659
Join date : 2011-05-16
Re: Is regionalism and rise of regional parties a worry for India?
by Guest Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:06 pm
Rashmun wrote:Kayalvizhi wrote:>> India has been around for thousands of years in the sense that culturally
Show me evidence. Vedic Hinduism of old is different from Tamil Saivisam and Maaliyam. Culturally different
Kambaramayanam would not have been possible without Valmiki Ramayan. Likewise the Krishna songs of Andal refer to a God who is believed by traditional Hindus to have been born and brought up in North India (specifically the Mathura-Vrindavan region in Uttar Pradesh).
At least some of the schools of Tamil Shaivism came to Tamil Nadu from Kashmir when some Tamilians went to Kashmir to learn Shaivism there and then brought the philosophy of Shaivism to Tamil Nadu.
Andal herself wanted to spend her life with Lord Krishna in Vrindavan which is why a huge temple in her honor was constructed for her by the devotees of Andal and Lord Krishna in Vrindavan.
Guest- Guest
Re: Is regionalism and rise of regional parties a worry for India?
by Guest Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:16 pm
Kayalvizhi wrote:>>
+
----
-
<blockquote>
Kayalvizhi wrote:>> India has been around for thousands of years in the sense that culturally
Show me evidence. Vedic Hinduism of old is different from Tamil Saivisam and Maaliyam. Culturally different</blockquote>
Kambaramayanam would not have been possible without Valmiki Ramayan. Likewise the Krishna songs of Andal refer to a God who is believed by traditional Hindus to have been born and brought up in North India (specifically the Mathura-Vrindavan region in Uttar Pradesh).
At least some of the schools of Tamil Shaivism came to Tamil Nadu from Kashmir when some Tamilians went to Kashmir to learn Shaivism there and then brought the philosophy of Shaivism to Tamil Nadu.
SAivam and Maaliyam orginated in TN. Others used and abused it.
One of the Tamilians who learnt Shaivism in Kashmir was a person called Madhuraja. He is believed to have been a native of Madurai and he travelled all the way to Kashmir to learn Shaivism from a philosopher called Abhinavagupta. He then brought the Shaivite philosophy he learned from Abhinavagupta to Tamil Nadu.
Guest- Guest
Re: Is regionalism and rise of regional parties a worry for India?
by Kayalvizhi Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:16 pm
>> Andal herself wanted to spend her life with Lord Krishna in Vrindavan which is why a huge temple in her honor was constructed for her by the devotees of Andal and Lord Krishna in Vrindavan.
Tamil Kannadasan wrote an epic about Jesus. So TN is cultural unity with Israel, Israeli miltary should occupy TN.
Tamil Kannadasan wrote an epic about Jesus. So TN is cultural unity with Israel, Israeli miltary should occupy TN.
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Re: Is regionalism and rise of regional parties a worry for India?
by Guest Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:19 pm
Kayalvizhi wrote:>> Andal herself wanted to spend her life with Lord Krishna in Vrindavan which is why a huge temple in her honor was constructed for her by the devotees of Andal and Lord Krishna in Vrindavan.
Tamil Kannadasan wrote an epic about Jesus. So TN is cultural unity with Israel, Israeli miltary should occupy TN.
The point is that Andal is respected by not just Tamilians but also North Indians who have constructed a temple in her honor in Vrindavan.
Guest- Guest
Re: Is regionalism and rise of regional parties a worry for India?
by Kayalvizhi Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:20 pm
>> The point is that Andal is respected by not just Tamilians but also North Indians who have constructed a temple in her honor in Vrindavan.
Nobody respected Kannadasan. So India is a country. That is the logic.
Nobody respected Kannadasan. So India is a country. That is the logic.
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Re: Is regionalism and rise of regional parties a worry for India?
by Guest Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:21 pm
Kayalvizhi wrote:>> The point is that Andal is respected by not just Tamilians but also North Indians who have constructed a temple in her honor in Vrindavan.
Nobody respected Kannadasan. So India is a country. That is the logic.
The stature of Andal is higher than the stature of Kannadasan.
Guest- Guest
Re: Is regionalism and rise of regional parties a worry for India?
by Kayalvizhi Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:22 pm
>> The point is that Andal is respected by not just Tamilians but also North Indians who have constructed a temple in her honor in Vrindavan.
Yje point is Jesus is respected by not just Israelis but also some Tamils who have constructede a church near Madurai bus station. So Israel should occupy TN.
Yje point is Jesus is respected by not just Israelis but also some Tamils who have constructede a church near Madurai bus station. So Israel should occupy TN.
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Re: Is regionalism and rise of regional parties a worry for India?
by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:24 pm
rashmun -- here's a piece of advice if you want to win (southern indian) friends and influence (southern indian) people. quit writing pointless posts, making baseless claims, and fantastically twisted arguments. instead learn to read, write, and fluently speak a southern indian language, maybe tamil. it will help you with your domestic issues anyway and you have a ready teacher in m.iyengar. come back in a year, maybe two when you can exhibit your new found fluency. then maybe we'll take you seriously. until then all claims about your interest in national integration etc. will be summarily ignored or relentlessly made fun of.
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Re: Is regionalism and rise of regional parties a worry for India?
by Guest Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:28 pm
Kayalvizhi wrote:>> The point is that Andal is respected by not just Tamilians but also North Indians who have constructed a temple in her honor in Vrindavan.
Yje point is Jesus is respected by not just Israelis but also some Tamils who have constructede a church near Madurai bus station. So Israel should occupy TN.
First of all, Lord Krishna precedes Jesus. Second, the vast majority of Tamils are Hindus. Third, this is just one example out of the numerous examples that can be given to show the deep cultural links between Tamil Nadu and North India. For instance, the fact that the Tamilian Madhuraja went to Kashmir to learn Shaivism from Abhinavagupta and then brought back and propagated the teachings of Abhinavagupta in Tamil Nadu.
Guest- Guest
Re: Is regionalism and rise of regional parties a worry for India?
by Guest Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:29 pm
when did they rename it to Odisha?
Guest- Guest
Re: Is regionalism and rise of regional parties a worry for India?
by Kayalvizhi Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:32 pm
>> the fact that the Tamilian Madhuraja went to Kashmir to learn Shaivism from Abhinavagupta and then brought back and propagated the teachings of Abhinavagupta in Tamil Nadu.
The fact that Tamil christian priests went to Rome to learn christianity from pope and then brought back and propagated the teachings of pope in Tamil Nadu. So YN is part of Italy. Everybody should learn Italian to promote national integration.
The fact that Tamil christian priests went to Rome to learn christianity from pope and then brought back and propagated the teachings of pope in Tamil Nadu. So YN is part of Italy. Everybody should learn Italian to promote national integration.
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Re: Is regionalism and rise of regional parties a worry for India?
by Guest Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:37 pm
Kayalvizhi wrote:>> the fact that the Tamilian Madhuraja went to Kashmir to learn Shaivism from Abhinavagupta and then brought back and propagated the teachings of Abhinavagupta in Tamil Nadu.
The fact that Tamil christian priests went to Rome to learn christianity from pope and then brought back and propagated the teachings of pope in Tamil Nadu. So YN is part of Italy. Everybody should learn Italian to promote national integration.
Madhuraja returned from Kashmir more than a thousand years ago. So the teachings of the Kashmiri Abhinavagupta have been around in Tamil Nadu for more than a thousand years. The center for this school of Kashmir Shaivism in Tamil Nadu was the famous Nataraja Temple at Chidambram. The impact of Shaivism in the culture of Tamil Nadu is far greater than the impact of Christianity if we agree that the vast majority of Tamilians in Tamil Nadu are hindus.
Guest- Guest
Re: Is regionalism and rise of regional parties a worry for India?
by charvaka Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:42 pm
Hahaha. This has already been discussed to the death. Rashmun even promised to write a blog about how regional parties led to the demise of the Soviet Union. I hope this copy-paste is not what he is trying to pass off as his blog on the Soviet Union.MaxEntropy_Man wrote:regionalism and regional parties are not the problem but a potential quixotic and authoritarian central rule that wants to focus on irrelevant things like a national language, a national salute, a national style of farting and sneezing, a national food, a national style of humping etc. definitely is a problem.
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Re: Is regionalism and rise of regional parties a worry for India?
by Guest Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:00 pm
Rashmun wrote:Kayalvizhi wrote:>> the fact that the Tamilian Madhuraja went to Kashmir to learn Shaivism from Abhinavagupta and then brought back and propagated the teachings of Abhinavagupta in Tamil Nadu.
The fact that Tamil christian priests went to Rome to learn christianity from pope and then brought back and propagated the teachings of pope in Tamil Nadu. So YN is part of Italy. Everybody should learn Italian to promote national integration.
Madhuraja returned from Kashmir more than a thousand years ago. So the teachings of the Kashmiri Abhinavagupta have been around in Tamil Nadu for more than a thousand years. The center for this school of Kashmir Shaivism in Tamil Nadu was the famous Nataraja Temple at Chidambram. The impact of Shaivism in the culture of Tamil Nadu is far greater than the impact of Christianity if we agree that the vast majority of Tamilians in Tamil Nadu are hindus.
| This is a Shaiva sect found in North India, especially Kashmir. It is also known as the Kashmiri school. However, it should be made clear that the term Kashmir Shaivism does not refer only to the Trika sect. It is composed of two radically opposed schools, the Trika and Krama with nondualistic traditions and the Shaiva Siddhanta which is dualistic. And in Kashmir itself, the dominant Shaiva doctrine is Shaiva Siddhanta, while the principal Shaiva cult is the worship of Svacandra Bhairava, which is a form of Shaivism between the two extremes of nonduality and duality (see Kashmir Shaivism, Shaiva Siddhanta, and Svacandra Bhairavas). Trika Shaivism incorporated Tantric and Buddhist influences and adopted a monistic metaphysical doctrine similar to Advaita Vedanta (nondualist). The doctrines of Trika Shaivism have five main elements. First is the doctrine of the co-essentiality of the trika or triad. This constitutes the anu or nara, the individual, shakti, cosmic power, and Shiva, the ground of shakti. Second is the worship of a trika of the goddesses Para, Parapara, and Apara, who are associated with Kali. Worship of the three goddesses is equated with liberating awareness of the unity in pure consciousness. Third comes ascent through the three means of salvation, anava, ritual and yogic action, sakta, moving from intellectually perceived reality to self-transcendent revelation, and sambhava, inner self-realisation. Fourth is the hierarchy of seven levels of the contraction of the self from Shiva-mode to the individual. Lastly, the Trika claims to be a summation and key to all Shaiva orthodox and heterodox traditions. Abhinavagupta, the greatest thinker of the sect, considered the Malinivijayottara Tantra the fundamental scripture of the Trika and the essence of multi-branched Shaivism. In his Malinivijayavarttika he expanded this claim and argued for paramadvayavada, supreme nondualism, with the Absolute being self-represented in both plurality and unity. The Trika was shown to be the embodiment in revelation of this Absolute, transcending and containing the dichotomy between orthodox (dualist) and heterodox (nondualist) aspects of Shaivism which were confronting each other in the early eleventh century CE. Abhinavagupta's great Tantraloka expounded all the theoretical, yogic, and ritual aspects of the Trika. His Paratrimsikavivarana studies the Kaula cult of the Trika with its worship of the goddess Tripurasundari or Srividya. With the spread of Abhinavagupta's lineage to Tamil Nadu, the belief was propagated that Abhinavagupta was not a mortal but an avatara, incarnation, of Shiva. | ||
| History | Trika Shaivism flourished in Kashmir from about 900 CE. Though all the known texts of Trika Shaivism come from Kashmir or are inspired by Kashmiri writers, it is doubtful that the Trika tradition originated in Kashmir. There is therefore a pre-Kashmirian phase of development which can be seen in the Siddhayogesvarimata Tantra, the Malinivijayottara Tantra, and the Tantrasadbhava Tantra. This early period was before 800 CE and was principally concerned with the trika of goddesses, who were associated with eight mother goddesses embodied in kulas, clans, of yoginis, supernatural-human females possessed by the mother goddesses. A second phase of development incorporated Kali, first immanent in the trika of goddesses and then together with the pantheon of Krama Shaivism. Krama Shaivism was a group of mystical Kali cults which originated in Uddiyana (modern Swat) and Kashmir before the ninth century. The idealist metaphysics of Krama Shaivism had an important influence on Trika Shaivism. From about 900 CE came the third phase of Trika Shaivism, characterised by the writings of Abhinavagupta, the great Kashmirian Shaiva theologian. Abhinavagupta lived from about 975 to 1025 CE. His father Vimala and his mother Narasimhagupta conceived him in Kaula ritual. He was descended from Atrigupta, a brahman scholar brought to Kashmir by King Lalitaditya (c. 724 to 760). His father was a learned Shaiva and trained his son in grammar, logic, and hermeneutics. His mother died when he was a child and he considered this the start of his spiritual progress. Becoming filled with devotion to Shiva, he gave up thoughts of marriage and led the life of a student in the homes of Shaiva scholars. Abhinavagupta was a profound influence on Shaivism in Kashmir. He became famous all over India for his theory on the nature of aesthetic experience which he saw as linked between worldly awareness and the inner bliss of enlightened consciousness. Aesthetic study was a traditional Shaiva subject in Kashmir because of the importance of dance and music in liturgies and the aestheticism of the Kaula mystical cults. Abhinavagupta's disciple Ksemaraja popularised his works in simpler writings. After Ksemaraja, Abhinavagupta's lineage spread to Tamil Nadu, where Sanskrit works by Tamils on Trika and associated forms of Shaivism were produced from the eleventh to the nineteenth century, thus maintaining the Kashmir tradition. The main centre for this was the great Shaiva temple of Cidambaram. The Trika tradition in Tamil Nadu influenced the cult of Shri Vidya. The Kashmirian tradition of the Shri Vidya reached Tamil Nadu in the twelfth century and was adopted by the Trika. The Trika became through this more a mixture of metaphysics and soteriological theory rather than a system of Tantric worship. During the centuries of Muslim rule the tradition of Tantric ritual was kept alive by the priests, but it has declined to the point where today it faces extinction. | |
| Symbols | The trika of goddesses, Para, Parapara, and Apara, are Kali in her immanent form. Para is depicted in a benevolent form, while Parapara and Apara are shown as wild and terrifying, wearing a garland of skulls, and brandishing the khatvanga, the skull-topped staff of the Kapalikas, a now extinct Shaiva sect. For the symbolism of Kali see Devotion to Kali. The associated mother goddesses appearing as yoginis have both supernatural and human symbolism. Within the Trika is a variety of erotico-mystical Kaulism associated with Matsyendranath (also known as Macchanda), who is typically shown as a yogin sitting on a fish and who is also an important figure with the Gorakhnathis (see separate entry). Krama ritual plays an important part in the yearly Sivaratri festival. | |
| Adherents | These are concentrated in Kashmir and Tamil Nadu. In Kashmir they are mainly brahmans. | |
| Headquarters/ Main Centre | Kashmir in North India and Cidambaram, Tamil Nadu, South India. |
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Re: Is regionalism and rise of regional parties a worry for India?
by Kayalvizhi Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:15 pm
>> Kashmiri Abhinavagupta have been around in Tamil Nadu for more than a thousand years.
Nakkeeran confronted Sivan over Tamil grammer about 2000 years ago.
Nakkeeran confronted Sivan over Tamil grammer about 2000 years ago.
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Re: Is regionalism and rise of regional parties a worry for India?
by Guest Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:37 pm
Kayalvizhi wrote:>> Kashmiri Abhinavagupta have been around in Tamil Nadu for more than a thousand years.
Nakkeeran confronted Sivan over Tamil grammer about 2000 years ago.
in this context, it is not permissible to compare a mythological/imaginary story with a real fact.
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Re: Is regionalism and rise of regional parties a worry for India?
by Kayalvizhi Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:43 pm
>> in this context, it is not permissible to compare a mythological/imaginary story with a real fact.
The point is Saivam is over 2000 years old in TN. Kashmiri contact happened 1000 years ago about the time Emperor Raja raja Cholan beat the hell out of Hindian ancestors.
The point is Saivam is over 2000 years old in TN. Kashmiri contact happened 1000 years ago about the time Emperor Raja raja Cholan beat the hell out of Hindian ancestors.
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Re: Is regionalism and rise of regional parties a worry for India?
by Guest Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:53 pm
Kayalvizhi wrote:>> in this context, it is not permissible to compare a mythological/imaginary story with a real fact.
The point is Saivam is over 2000 years old in TN. Kashmiri contact happened 1000 years ago about the time Emperor Raja raja Cholan beat the hell out of Hindian ancestors.
Shaivism may have been over 2,000 years old in TN but Shaivism has several sub-schools within it. Kashmiri Shaivism, to the best of my knowledge, has four sub-schools within it. It is the Kashmiri Shaivism which arrived in Tamil Nadu when the Tamil scholar Madhuraja went from Madurai to Kashmir to become a disciple of the Kashmir scholar Abhinavagupta and then brought back his knowledge of Kashmir Shaivism to Tamil Nadu.
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Re: Is regionalism and rise of regional parties a worry for India?
by Kayalvizhi Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:07 pm
>> then brought back his knowledge of Kashmir Shaivism to Tamil Nadu.
So what? Jews brought christianity to TN centuries ago. ago. Arabs broght Muslim to TN centuries ago.
So what? Jews brought christianity to TN centuries ago. ago. Arabs broght Muslim to TN centuries ago.
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Re: Is regionalism and rise of regional parties a worry for India?
by Guest Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:12 pm
Kayalvizhi wrote:>> then brought back his knowledge of Kashmir Shaivism to Tamil Nadu.
So what? Jews brought christianity to TN centuries ago. ago. Arabs broght Muslim to TN centuries ago.
The example of the Tamil scholar Madhuraja going to Kashmir and returning to TN with the knowledge of Kashmir Shaivism is just one example of the numerous examples showing the deep cultural ties of the people of Tamil Nadu and North Indians.
At a more fundamental level, there is the sanskrit language which is the basis for a common culture of Tamil people and North Indian people.
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