The case against regional parties

by Guest Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:47 pm

Notice how the BJP was forced to take action against Yeddy, the Karnataka CM. What would have been the situation if Yeddy was CM and also a member of a regional party instead of a national party? The answer is that it would have been business as usual for him and also for the Reddy brothers.

by sambarvada Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:54 pm

===> Are you saying that people in the South should not vote for parties like Telugu Desam, DMK and AIADMK?

by Guest Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:06 pm

sambarvada wrote:===> Are you saying that people in the South should not vote for parties like Telugu Desam, DMK and AIADMK?

--> this was just a preliminary thought. i have a lot more to say on this issue.

by charvaka Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:32 am

Summary: the "case against regional parties" is based on your assumed answer to a hypothetical question. Rashmun Method!

by Guest Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:01 am

charvaka wrote:Summary: the "case against regional parties" is based on your assumed answer to a hypothetical question. Rashmun Method!

--> yup. its the Rashmun Method whenever we disagree. Charvaka Spin!

by Guest Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:13 am

Rashmun wrote:Notice how the BJP was forced to take action against Yeddy, the Karnataka CM. What would have been the situation if Yeddy was CM and also a member of a regional party instead of a national party? The answer is that it would have been business as usual for him and also for the Reddy brothers.

--> being a national party, the BJP would have suffered politically in other states if it did not take action against Yeddy in Karnataka. Particularly since they had made corruption an electoral issue. Now, if Yeddy would have been a regional party and this regional party would have been the ruling party in Karnataka, he would not really have bothered about the views of other Indians (outside Karnataka) since that would not have affected his political fortunes. Despite the massive corruption (including large scale illegal mining in Bellary), the BJP actually went on doing well in Karnataka. For instance, it kept winning byelections. Had a regional party been in power in Karnataka, with Yeddy as CM, there would have been no need to replace Yeddy. After all, BJP was doing very well electorally in Karnataka. The problem was that if Yeddy continued in power, the BJP's war cry against corruption would have been dented and after the Hegde report, the BJP would probably have suffered electorally as well in other parts of India, even if it may have continued doing well politically in Karnataka due to the caste combination being in its favor.

The dominant castes in Karnataka are Lingayats and Vokkaligas. Right now, Vokkaligas are divided between Congress and Deve Gowda's party (Janta Dal-Secular), while the Lingayats are solidly with BJP. Earlier the Lingayats were with Ramkrishna Hegde. After Hegde's death, the BJP was fortunate in that the Lingayat vote bank got transferred en masse to them.

by Merlot Daruwala Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:45 am

sambarvada wrote:===> Are you saying that people in the South should not vote for parties like Telugu Desam, DMK and AIADMK?

That is not the point. People anywhere can vote for anyone listed on their ballot.

Conceptually, regionalism is a slippery slope. Once you go in for identity politics, people start reverting to tribal loyalties and the common good of the federation gets lost in the me-and-my-people-first parochialism. And there's no stopping the granularity to which the politics can descend. For example, in AP, it was first Telugu pride. Now it is Telengana pride vs Rest of AP pride. Next, it'll be Hyderabad pride vs Telengana pride and so on.

Regional jingoism is also responsible for needless animosity between people. For example, the riverine dispute between Karnataka and TN is a commonplace issue faced by states and countries sharing rivers worldwide, but it's needlessly complicated by political oneupsmanship by regional parties using it for electoral advantage.

PS: I agree with Rashmun's point that in a country of shameless politicians, a regional party has nothing at stake in clinging on to power even in the face of proven corruption charges. Whereas a national party will fear loss of moral ground at the federal level and electoral disadvantage in other states and will therefore press the discredited local leadership to quit.

by charvaka Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:05 pm

Rashmun wrote:Had a regional party been in power in Karnataka, with Yeddy as CM, there would have been no need to replace Yeddy.

Your answer to this hypothetical question is wrong. The people of Karnataka are not known to care less about their own resources being robbed by politicians any less than people in the rest of India care about Karnataka's resources being robbed. Besides, we have actual examples of what happened when the corruption of regional parties got exposed. Lalu Yadav had a regional party, and he not only had to quit as CM, his people also booted out his government.

by charvaka Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:09 pm

Merlot Daruwala wrote:That is not the point. People anywhere can vote for anyone listed on their ballot.

Conceptually, regionalism is a slippery slope. Once you go in for identity politics, people start reverting to tribal loyalties and the common good of the federation gets lost in the me-and-my-people-first parochialism. And there's no stopping the granularity to which the politics can descend. For example, in AP, it was first Telugu pride. Now it is Telengana pride vs Rest of AP pride. Next, it'll be Hyderabad pride vs Telengana pride and so on.

Regional jingoism is also responsible for needless animosity between people. For example, the riverine dispute between Karnataka and TN is a commonplace issue faced by states and countries sharing rivers worldwide, but it's needlessly complicated by political oneupsmanship by regional parties using it for electoral advantage.

It is naive to assume that there would be no dispute over river waters, etc. between regions if only all regions were ruled by national parties. The first regional dispute in India occurred when Madras state was ruled by Congress; after Andhra separated, both states were ruled by Congress. People who were using similar reasoning to deny the Andhra people a state of their own realized after Andhra state was formed, and things didn't go to hell as they predicted, that that model is actually a good one. So they went ahead and formed the states reorganization commission, and broke up the unwieldy Madras and Bombay states.

by charvaka Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:14 pm

--> yup. its the Rashmun Method whenever ~~we disagree~~ someone uses imaginary and incorrect answers to hypothetical questions and titles that as "the case against this or that".

* fixed *

BTW, you still have to point out which regional parties were in power in the Soviet Union that led to its disintegration.

by truthbetold Sat Jul 30, 2011 1:15 pm

Indian regional parties are all over the place. All India Republican party is a regional party.All India Muslim league of Kerala is another example. Janata dal (s) of Gowda claims to be national but has no base out side his native K'taka.

DMK, AIADMK, some eastern state parties and Akali dal are strictly geographical entities and generates serious regional sentiments.

Laloos RJD, Mulayam's Samajwadi are not power blocks using region as cover. They would like run the country but no one else wants them to.

Biju janata dal and TDP are straddle the line between regional parties and political blocks. Non of their politics is anti Indian or against the federal structure. Netiher state has or is likely to have anti India movement.

Most regional parties came out of Congress local leaders escaping the iron hand or socialist who have local influence who want to gain local power on their own.

Congress is a non entity in Bihar, UP, West Bengal, and TN. BJP does not have a base in Kerala, TN, AP, and WB. It has no significance presence in most of eatern hill states. So proposing a non existent two system is a myth. People of AP does not have choice to fight the misrule of Congress in ap but to vote for opposition and in this case it happens to be TDP.

by truthbetold Sat Jul 30, 2011 1:31 pm

In most states two party system exists. Look at TN (DMK vs ADMK), AP (TDP vs Cong), Orissa (cong vs BJD), WB (mamata vs CPIM), NDA vs RJD (Bihar), Mayawati vs Mulayam (UP), {Rajasthan, Gujarat, MP, HP, Maha, Delhi, Uttarkhand} cong vs BJP, etc. K'taka will transform into a two way race once Gowda joins congress( a matter of time of elder leader dies).

National Politics may be murky but local elections are clear and voters respond to local politics.

by Guest Sat Jul 30, 2011 1:50 pm

Merlot Daruwala wrote:PS: I agree with Rashmun's point that in a country of shameless politicians, a regional party has nothing at stake in clinging on to power even in the face of proven corruption charges. Whereas a national party will fear loss of moral ground at the federal level and electoral disadvantage in other states and will therefore press the discredited local leadership to quit.

you and rashmun make a good point but you are eternal optimists. so if yeddyurappa has been discharged, you assume another corrupt BJP minister will not take his place? in jharkhand bjp had similarly dismissed babulal marandi on corruption charges. in came another BJP apointee -- arjum munda. he too was dismissed on similar charges! should it not be the bjp national leader resigning in recompense now? what is this inter-state vote-bank fascination or farce that you speak of? in bengal buddhadeb realized before his tenure was over that he his going to be dismissed. so he relinquished his charged to hardliners. what is the difference between what the bjp is doing and what the cpim did?

by Guest Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:15 pm

ok, babulal marandi was dismissed for protesting against corruption in the higher echelons of bjp. that makes matters worse.

by truthbetold Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:21 pm

If Inter state vote bank can help national parties or change their behaviour, why is Congress so corrupt? Why is it mired in dynastic politics?

Were they ashamed of Adarh scam? Why was man mohan defending Kalmadi till the last day? Why does not govt investigate 2g scam till court forced it to do so.

This is false logic. Only people who push for Congress/BJP two party system are those (a) BJP supporters who want to gain foothold in states like AP, TN and Kerala (b) Congress supporters who feel they can play the communal card against BJP to cover up corruption.

by Guest Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:24 pm

Rashmun wrote:Despite the massive corruption (including large scale illegal mining in Bellary), the BJP actually went on doing well in Karnataka. For instance, it kept winning byelection

are you suggesting that the bjp votes from karnataka do not matter to the party in consideration of the votes the bjp gets from the other states? hypothetically what would the bjp do if the same fiasco had been repeated in each state they rule?

by Guest Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:31 pm

charvaka wrote:--> yup. its the Rashmun Method whenever ~~we disagree~~ someone uses imaginary and incorrect answers to hypothetical questions and titles that as "the case against this or that".

* fixed *

BTW, you still have to point out which regional parties were in power in the Soviet Union that led to its disintegration.

--> There was a lot more speculative thinking involved in my criticism of Adi Sankaracharya. You never had any problem with all those posts of mine. Also, Merlot actually agrees with me on the point i make about regional parties. Is he also following the Rashmun Method ?

--> Isn't it strange that you never spoke of the Rashmun Method in the many years on Sulekha CH when both you and i were posting at the same time and when we were in agreement on almost every single issue.

--> What i wish to know now is for you to reveal whether you are for separate Telangana or for United Andhra.

by charvaka Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:34 pm

Rashmun wrote:What i wish to know now is for you to reveal whether you are for separate Telangana or for United Andhra.

Those who care about that issue already know my position on it. If you want to know my position, I will let you know as soon as you point out which regional parties were in power in the Soviet Union that led to its disintegration.

by charvaka Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:34 pm

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
Rashmun wrote:Despite the massive corruption (including large scale illegal mining in Bellary), the BJP actually went on doing well in Karnataka. For instance, it kept winning byelection

are you suggesting that the bjp votes from karnataka do not matter to the party in consideration of the votes the bjp gets from the other states? hypothetically what would the bjp do if the same fiasco had been repeated in each state they rule?

by Guest Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:41 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:What i wish to know now is for you to reveal whether you are for separate Telangana or for United Andhra.
Those who care about that issue already know my position on it. If you want to know my position, I will let you know as soon as you point out which regional parties were in power in the Soviet Union that led to its disintegration.

--> With respect to the disintegration of the Soviet Union, i had told you in a recent post (day before yesterday) that i would write a blog on the issue. I shall do so, i assure you, but it may take me a few weeks to do so. Maybe even a few months.

--> i don't know why you would wish to conceal your actual political position about whether Telangana should break away from the rest of Andhra Pradesh. i suppose you do not wish to annoy the telugus from coastal andhra and rayalaseema on this forum by coming across as a regionalist and a passive supporter of the pro Telangana hooligans who went around breaking the statues of telugu icons hailing from coastal andhra and rayalaseema.

by Guest Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:43 pm

charvaka wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
Rashmun wrote:Despite the massive corruption (including large scale illegal mining in Bellary), the BJP actually went on doing well in Karnataka. For instance, it kept winning byelection

are you suggesting that the bjp votes from karnataka do not matter to the party in consideration of the votes the bjp gets from the other states? hypothetically what would the bjp do if the same fiasco had been repeated in each state they rule?

--> Charvaka's need to laugh at everything is highly amusing. If someone kicks Charvaka in his stomach, and punches him on his face, one should not be surprised to find him rolling in laughter.

by Guest Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:47 pm

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
Rashmun wrote:Despite the massive corruption (including large scale illegal mining in Bellary), the BJP actually went on doing well in Karnataka. For instance, it kept winning byelection

are you suggesting that the bjp votes from karnataka do not matter to the party in consideration of the votes the bjp gets from the other states? hypothetically what would the bjp do if the same fiasco had been repeated in each state they rule?

--> The whole point of this argument is that the BJP, being a national party, has to look hard at how the continuance of a corrupt chief minister will affect its performance in other states. Notice that Yeddy had not been convicted in court; he has only been indicted by Hegde. But because BJP chose to make corruption an electoral issue at a national level its calculation was that Yeddy's continuance in office was not in the party's interest. Hegde, of course, is a well respected legal luminary and nobody can accuse him of being pro-congress.

by Guest Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:52 pm

truthbetold wrote:In most states two party system exists. Look at TN (DMK vs ADMK), AP (TDP vs Cong), Orissa (cong vs BJD), WB (mamata vs CPIM), NDA vs RJD (Bihar), Mayawati vs Mulayam (UP), {Rajasthan, Gujarat, MP, HP, Maha, Delhi, Uttarkhand} cong vs BJP, etc. K'taka will transform into a two way race once Gowda joins congress( a matter of time of elder leader dies).

National Politics may be murky but local elections are clear and voters respond to local politics.

--> In U.P., the scenario is changing. In the last Lok sabha elections the Congress won 21 of the available seats. The SP and BSP won around the same number of seats. So there are signs of a Congress revival in U.P.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/congstreaksupinskywith21seats-splos/461013/

by charvaka Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:57 pm

Rashmun wrote:--> i don't know why you would wish to conceal your actual political position about whether Telangana should break away from the rest of Andhra Pradesh. i suppose you do not wish to annoy the telugus from coastal andhra and rayalaseema on this forum by coming across as a regionalist and a passive supporter of the pro Telangana hooligans who went around breaking the statues of telugu icons hailing from coastal andhra and rayalaseema.

The case against regional parties 3077217049

. Your complete lack of understanding on this topic is matched by the confidence with which you make shit up.

by charvaka Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:58 pm

Rashmun wrote:--> The whole point of this argument is that the BJP, being a national party, has to look hard at how the continuance of a corrupt chief minister will affect its performance in other states. Notice that Yeddy had not been convicted in court; he has only been indicted by Hegde. But because BJP chose to make corruption an electoral issue at a national level its calculation was that Yeddy's continuance in office was not in the party's interest. Hegde, of course, is a well respected legal luminary and nobody can accuse him of being pro-congress.

Lalu's party wasn't a national party, he wasn't convicted in court, and his party has NOT chosen to make corruption an electoral issue. Still he had to quit, and on top of that the people voted him out.

by charvaka Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:00 pm

Rashmun wrote:--> With respect to the disintegration of the Soviet Union, i had told you in a recent post (day before yesterday) that i would write a blog on the issue. I shall do so, i assure you, but it may take me a few weeks to do so. Maybe even a few months.

I hope the change of format from forum post to blog makes your "case against regional parties" stronger. lol!

by charvaka Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:00 pm

Rashmun wrote:
charvaka wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
Rashmun wrote:Despite the massive corruption (including large scale illegal mining in Bellary), the BJP actually went on doing well in Karnataka. For instance, it kept winning byelection

are you suggesting that the bjp votes from karnataka do not matter to the party in consideration of the votes the bjp gets from the other states? hypothetically what would the bjp do if the same fiasco had been repeated in each state they rule?

--> Charvaka's need to laugh at everything is highly amusing. If someone kicks Charvaka in his stomach, and punches him on his face, one should not be surprised to find him rolling in laughter.

I am glad you find it amusing. Laughing

by Guest Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:03 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:--> i don't know why you would wish to conceal your actual political position about whether Telangana should break away from the rest of Andhra Pradesh. i suppose you do not wish to annoy the telugus from coastal andhra and rayalaseema on this forum by coming across as a regionalist and a passive supporter of the pro Telangana hooligans who went around breaking the statues of telugu icons hailing from coastal andhra and rayalaseema.
. Your complete lack of understanding on this topic is matched by the confidence with which you make shit up.

--> i am only calling you out on your old habit of not revealing your true political orientation on significant issues. You wish to discuss political issues without revealing your actual position on some important aspects of the issue under discussion. Why? Because what others think is important to you. The fact that nobody other than me on this forum had a high opinion of Diggy was--in your opinion--something so important that you even gave me all the handle names of people who had commented on threads about Diggy but who had never expressed praise for him. Getting cheap popularity on an online forum may be important to you, but it means nothing to me.

by charvaka Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:12 pm

Rashmun wrote:--> i am only calling you out on your old habit of not revealing your true political orientation on significant issues. You wish to discuss political issues without revealing your actual position on some important aspects of the issue under discussion.

This is nonsense. Anybody who discussed Telangana with me knows my position. You suddenly become interested in Telangana two days ago, and now blame your not knowing my views on me concealing my views!

Rashmun wrote:Why?

And then proceed to speculate why!

I am really enjoying getting you worked up by not telling you what I think about the Telangana issue. bounce

Rashmun wrote:The fact that nobody other than me on this forum had a high opinion of Diggy was--in your opinion--something so important that you even gave me all the handle names of people who had commented on threads about Diggy but who had never expressed praise for him.

I said "quite a few people" which wasn't enough for you. So I gave you the names to count...

by truthbetold Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:13 pm

Seva appears in many masks and under many names. He is forever. You cannot escape him.

Jandhayala - Nalugu sthambalata - Talakaya teneyyatam

by Guest Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:40 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:--> i am only calling you out on your old habit of not revealing your true political orientation on significant issues. You wish to discuss political issues without revealing your actual position on some important aspects of the issue under discussion.
This is nonsense. Anybody who discussed Telangana with me knows my position. You suddenly become interested in Telangana two days ago, and now blame your not knowing my views on me concealing my views!

--> my interest in Telangana did not develop in the last two days. for instance, last week i had a brief interaction with sandilya on this issue:

http://forums.sulekha.com/forums/coffeehouse/famous-telangana-leaders-1122361.htm

--> i have also discussed telangana prior to the above thread on CH.

Charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:Why?
And then proceed to speculate why!

I am really enjoying getting you worked up by not telling you what I think about the Telangana issue.

--> and i am enjoying the discomfort you are experiencing due to which you refuse to reveal your position on whether Telangana should break away from the rest of A.P. to me. Since you care about the opinions of others so much, your general tendency is to conceal anything which you think will diminish your popularity.

--> But i would suggest that you at least have the decency to rebuke the pro Telangana leader who threatens that blood will flow on the streets of hyderabad and in the krishna river if hyderabad is not given to telangana after telangana becomes independent.

http://www.rediff.com/election/2004/apr/28einter.htm

--> also, i urge you to rebuke the conduct of the pro Telangana hooligans who went around breaking statues of telugu icons from coastal andhra and rayalaseema in hyderabad.

Charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:The fact that nobody other than me on this forum had a high opinion of Diggy was--in your opinion--something so important that you even gave me all the handle names of people who had commented on threads about Diggy but who had never expressed praise for him.
I said "quite a few people" which wasn't enough for you. So I gave you the names to count...

--> First, why should you and i care what others on this forum think of Diggy Raja? Why should i care about what other online posters think of my views when discussing them with another online poster. For one thing, is it not possible that those who do not support my position today may do so in future?

--> Second, you were so keen to try and make it appear that there are many people who don't approve of Diggy that even those whose sole contribution to the Diggy threads was time pass posts--witty or trying to be witty one or two sentence posts, for instance--that even their names were included in your list of 10 odd names. Again, your zeal to seek approval from others about your views is revealed. The problem for you is that i have no such hangups.

by charvaka Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:45 pm

Rashmun wrote:in your list of 10 odd names.

You, sir, can't even count!

I have already condemned the words and actions of jingoistic Telangana leaders, and I certainly don't need you to tell me what to do.

Rashmun wrote:why should you and i care what others on this forum think of Diggy Raja?

As Diggy's sole hero-worshipper on CH, you should certainly not care.

Rashmun wrote:i am enjoying the discomfort you are experiencing due to which you
refuse to reveal your position on whether Telangana should break away
from the rest of A.P. to me.

Right, I am worried about being unpopular with you. That's why I am not telling you something which I already told the Telugus interested in this issue. The case against regional parties 3077217049

by charvaka Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:47 pm

Rashmun wrote:For one thing, is it not possible that those who do not support my position today may do so in future?

Everything is possible. It is possible the world will end tomorrow at 9 am Pacific time. It is also possible -- as it actually happened -- that you give justifications for Diggy doing things which he goes on to deny he even did! In other words, it is possible Diggy is less shameless than you are.

by Guest Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:59 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:in your list of 10 odd names.
You, sir, can't even count!

--> keep spinning. you have a long way to go before you reach the level of KCR.

charvaka wrote:I have already condemned the words and actions of jingoistic Telangana leaders, and I certainly don't need you to tell me what to do.

--> Oh, so now they become jingoistic Telangana leaders, is it? So now tell us whether you are for separate Telangana or for United Andhra? Why pussyfoot around this unless it is because you care about what others think about your opinions? Are you so much into cheap popularity that you will refuse to reveal your actual position on controversial but pertinent issues?

Charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:why should you and i care what others on this forum think of Diggy Raja?
As Diggy's sole hero-worshipper on CH, you should certainly not care.

--> Charvaka spin in full action. Do you deny that he is now playing a pivotal role in the Congress party? This is the same party for which you have expressed your contempt and intense dislike on several occasions.

--> Since he has the confidence of the Congress party, which has assigned him an important position in the party, how am i the only person who respects him? Do you think the Congress would give a pivotal position in the party to someone it did not respect?

--> Isn't the Congress--the party you hate--the same party which has won Lok Sabha elections twice in a row now. Do you dislike also all those who have voted for the Congress party?

--> Returning to Diggy, was there not an uproar in the M.P. assembly after the attack on him in Ujjain? So is it not true that there are people who respect him which is why they created the uproar after the attack on him?

Charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:i am enjoying the discomfort you are experiencing due to which you
refuse to reveal your position on whether Telangana should break away
from the rest of A.P. to me.
Right, I am worried about being unpopular with you. That's why I am not telling you something which I already told the Telugus interested in this issue.

--> I do not believe you have ever disclosed whether you are for separate Telangana or for united Andhra. Now you may refuse to divulge your opinion on this issue to me because of your ego, but would you care to name any telugu on this forum to who you have disclosed in the past (on CH) whether you are for United Andhra or for separate Telangana.

by Guest Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:02 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:For one thing, is it not possible that those who do not support my position today may do so in future?
Everything is possible. It is possible the world will end tomorrow at 9 am Pacific time. It is also possible -- as it actually happened -- that you give justifications for Diggy doing things which he goes on to deny he even did! In other words, it is possible Diggy is less shameless than you are.

--> Right. I have to take lessons from shamelessness from someone who cares more about the opinions of others when articulating his own thoughts. Who refuses to divulge his opinion on the crucial question of whether he is for separate Telangana or United Andhra, because he fears that would affect his popularity amongst Telugus.

by charvaka Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:19 pm

Rashmun wrote:I do not believe you have ever disclosed whether you are for separate Telangana or for united Andhra.

You believe wrongly. Rashmun Method = make shit up when evidence to the contrary is readily available. Then repeat it ad nauseam hoping it sticks.

Rashmun wrote:Now you may refuse to divulge your opinion on this issue to me because
of your ego, but would you care to name any telugu on this forum to who
you have disclosed in the past (on CH) whether you are for United
Andhra or for separate Telangana.

These are some posts on this topic on this forum. There are many more on old CH where I expressed similar views.

https://such.forumotion.com/t1808-topic#15406
https://such.forumotion.com/t1808-topic#15424
https://such.forumotion.com/t1715-topic#14710
https://such.forumotion.com/t1715-topic#14799

by charvaka Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:21 pm

Rashmun wrote:I have to take lessons from shamelessness from someone who cares more about the opinions of others when articulating his own thoughts. Who refuses to divulge his opinion on the crucial question of whether he is for separate Telangana or United Andhra, because he fears that would affect his popularity amongst Telugus.

So let use the Rashmun Method on you: you don't dispute that Diggy is less shameless than you are!

by Guest Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:31 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:I do not believe you have ever disclosed whether you are for separate Telangana or for united Andhra.
You believe wrongly. Rashmun Method = make shit up when evidence to the contrary is readily available. Then repeat it ad nauseam hoping it sticks.

Rashmun wrote:Now you may refuse to divulge your opinion on this issue to me because
of your ego, but would you care to name any telugu on this forum to who
you have disclosed in the past (on CH) whether you are for United
Andhra or for separate Telangana.

These are some posts on this topic on this forum. There are many more on old CH where I expressed similar views.

https://such.forumotion.com/t1808-topic#15406
https://such.forumotion.com/t1808-topic#15424
https://such.forumotion.com/t1715-topic#14710
https://such.forumotion.com/t1715-topic#14799

--> i went over your posts on those threads. of course, i skipped your posts in telugu script because i cannot read telugu. your english posts still do not tell me whether you are for separate telangana or for united andhra. Charvaka Spin works like this: just keep hedging, pussyfooting around, not revealing your views clearly about controversial issues in the zeal to obtain cheap popularity.

by Guest Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:35 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:I have to take lessons from shamelessness from someone who cares more about the opinions of others when articulating his own thoughts. Who refuses to divulge his opinion on the crucial question of whether he is for separate Telangana or United Andhra, because he fears that would affect his popularity amongst Telugus.
So let use the Rashmun Method on you: you don't dispute that Diggy is less shameless than you are!

--> Charvaka Spin in action again. What i am disputing is how you are claiming that i am shameless considering that you are shameless enough to not articulate your own views clearly because of your fear of losing popularity with others. An example is how we still do not know whether you are for separate Telangana or for United Andhra. Most telugus from Coastal Andhra and Rayalaseema are dead against Telangana. Is it because of your fear of antagonizing the 'United Andhra' telugus that you continue to behave in a shameless manner?

by sambarvada Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:41 pm

===> Rashmun,

Only when regional parties like DMK and AIADMK became coalition partners in the centre, TN started getting more development projects.

When Congress ruled the state, TN was discriminated. The TN Congress leaders were just following orders from their NI bosses.

by truthbetold Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:57 pm

sambarvada wrote:===> Rashmun,

Only when regional parties like DMK and AIADMK became coalition partners in the centre, TN started getting more development projects.

When Congress ruled the state, TN was discriminated. The TN Congress leaders were just following orders from their NI bosses.

You mean DMK got 2G project? Are you implying money in Kanimozhi, Raja, Maran and Stalin is like money TN people's hands?

The IITs, Salem steel plants, Atomic power plants all were alloted to TN only during DMK rule?

Rajagopalachari and Kamraj Nadar were both influential at national and got disproportionate funds to TN.

Just for clarification MGR always supported Delhi ruling party (which happened to be Congress when) he was in power.

by Guest Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:03 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:--> The whole point of this argument is that the BJP, being a national party, has to look hard at how the continuance of a corrupt chief minister will affect its performance in other states. Notice that Yeddy had not been convicted in court; he has only been indicted by Hegde. But because BJP chose to make corruption an electoral issue at a national level its calculation was that Yeddy's continuance in office was not in the party's interest. Hegde, of course, is a well respected legal luminary and nobody can accuse him of being pro-congress.
Lalu's party wasn't a national party, he wasn't convicted in court, and his party has NOT chosen to make corruption an electoral issue. Still he had to quit, and on top of that the people voted him out.

--> although Lalu was eventually acquitted he did end up in jail (like Raja, Kanimozhi, et al) for some time. He was sent to jail at a time when he was chief minister of Bihar. Just before or during the time he was in jail, he handpicked the person who would succeed him as chief minister--his own wife, Rabri Devi. Lalu's example only strengthens my argument against regional parties.

by charvaka Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:30 pm

Rashmun wrote:you are shameless enough to not articulate your own views clearly because of your fear of losing popularity with others. An example is how we still do not know whether you are for separate Telangana or for United Andhra. Most telugus from Coastal Andhra and Rayalaseema are dead against Telangana. Is it because of your fear of antagonizing the 'United Andhra' telugus that you continue to behave in a shameless manner?

That's just a lie, Rashmun. I have stated my views on this multiple times. If you had only said this once, I would have dismissed it as ignorance and / or laziness. But I told you it was untrue, and gave you an opportunity to go look for my views before you kept repeating the lie that I never expressed my views on this. But you chose to repeat your lie multiple times (and speculate about my motivations for doing something I never did!) Well, it gives me pleasure to prove that you are a liar.

If you search for carvaka and Telangana on old CH, the first result is this: http://forums.sulekha.com/forums/coffeehouse/anybody-seen-carvaka-842284.htm, where I said three years ago:

I am glad that the state remains united, for now.
Reading it as "all's well with Telangana" is a bad idea though, and will
only increase separatist tendencies in future. YSR and CBN would do
well to understand the grievances of Telangana people and act on them
within the framework of samaikya Andhra Pradesh.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:32 pm

in a country as diverse as india, the regional parties play an important role in protecting local political interests. for example, if it wasn't for the role of the kazhagams in the 60s in TN we'd all be speaking hindi now forever forsaking our glorious linguistic and cultural heritage. i'm certainly thankful for that.

by charvaka Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:32 pm

Rashmun wrote:--> although Lalu was eventually acquitted he did end up in jail (like Raja, Kanimozhi, et al) for some time. He was sent to jail at a time when he was chief minister of Bihar. Just before or during the time he was in jail, he handpicked the person who would succeed him as chief minister--his own wife, Rabri Devi. Lalu's example only strengthens my argument against regional parties.

Indira Gandhi was convicted of election fraud, but her national party never replaced her. If India were part of a world-state, and there were global parties instead of national parties, perhaps world leaders could have put pressure on her to quit. This is the case against national parties. QED, thanks to Rashmun Method.

by charvaka Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:40 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:in a country as diverse as india, the regional parties play an important role in protecting local political interests. for example, if it wasn't for the role of the kazhagams in the 60s in TN we'd all be speaking hindi now forever forsaking our glorious linguistic and cultural heritage. i'm certainly thankful for that.

I agree. I would go further to say that regional parties play an important role in protecting national interests against those of the largest region. It is thanks to the regional parties in the '90s that the Indian polity successfully countered and blunted the threat of right-wing radicalization, which had taken root in the largest region. Without regional parties, the madness of militant Hindutva that took over northindia in the '90s would have done much, much more damage that it did.

by charvaka Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:42 pm

Rashmun wrote:of course, i skipped your posts in telugu script because i cannot read telugu. your english posts still do not tell me whether you are for separate telangana or for united andhra. Charvaka Spin works like this: just keep hedging, pussyfooting around, not revealing your views clearly about controversial issues in the zeal to obtain cheap popularity.

So here is Rashmun Method at work again. Instead of seeking a translation of what you don't understand, assume that the material you can't read says what you want it to mean, and make an ass of yourself. Nice. lol!

by Guest Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:46 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:--> although Lalu was eventually acquitted he did end up in jail (like Raja, Kanimozhi, et al) for some time. He was sent to jail at a time when he was chief minister of Bihar. Just before or during the time he was in jail, he handpicked the person who would succeed him as chief minister--his own wife, Rabri Devi. Lalu's example only strengthens my argument against regional parties.
Indira Gandhi was convicted of election fraud, but her national party never replaced her. If India were part of a world-state, and there were global parties instead of national parties, perhaps world leaders could have put pressure on her to quit. This is the case against national parties. QED, thanks to Rashmun Method.

--> Charvaka Spin at work again: she was convicted of electoral fraud by a single judge bench of a high court but then that decision was overturned by the supreme court.

by charvaka Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:53 pm

Rashmun wrote:--> Charvaka Spin at work again: she was convicted of electoral fraud by a single judge bench of a high court but then that decision was overturned by the supreme court.

Both Yeddy and Lalu are nowhere near conviction. Indira was convicted. So the case against national parties is stronger than the case against regional parties! lol!

by Guest Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:53 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:of course, i skipped your posts in telugu script because i cannot read telugu. your english posts still do not tell me whether you are for separate telangana or for united andhra. Charvaka Spin works like this: just keep hedging, pussyfooting around, not revealing your views clearly about controversial issues in the zeal to obtain cheap popularity.
So here is Rashmun Method at work again. Instead of seeking a translation of what you don't understand, assume that the material you can't read says what you want it to mean, and make an ass of yourself. Nice.

--> As mentioned earlier, if someone kicked you on your balls one should not be suprised if you turned over and started rolling in laughter. Since your zeal for cheap popularity is only matched by your zeal to laugh out loud at the earliest opportunity.

--> Why should i ask you for a translation of your Telugu posts? Why this hedging and pussyfooting around on the simple question: are you for United Andhra or for Separate Telangana?
What are you scared of? That your popularity would get diminished if you express unpopular views?

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