Re: Hindi film Aradhana had created a sensation in Tamil Nadu

by Idéfix Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:13 pm

Rashmun wrote:The MPI is not explaining why a lot more farmers are committing suicides--in large numbers-- in regions in India which are less poor according to MPI.

MPI is not designed to explain the difference in rate of farmer suicides. The difference in rate of farmer suicides is already explained quite logically by P. Sainath. The key factors are: cash crops (instead of food / subsistence crops), source of water (rivers vs. rain-fed irrigation), need for high-cost inputs (e.g. chemical fertilizers), and government's support prices. That difference in rate of farmer suicides between UP and MH/AP has nothing to do with the fact that UP is a lot poorer than either state.

by Guest Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:25 pm

panini press wrote:
Rashmun wrote:The MPI is not explaining why a lot more farmers are committing suicides--in large numbers-- in regions in India which are less poor according to MPI.
MPI is not designed to explain the difference in rate of farmer suicides. The difference in rate of farmer suicides is already explained quite logically by P. Sainath. The key factors are: cash crops (instead of food / subsistence crops), source of water (rivers vs. rain-fed irrigation), need for high-cost inputs (e.g. chemical fertilizers), and government's support prices. That difference in rate of farmer suicides between UP and MH/AP has nothing to do with the fact that UP is a lot poorer than either state.

you are all over the place. first, Uttar Pradesh is the second largest producer of sugar cane in India (after Maharashtra). Sugar cane is widely recognized to be a cash crop, and not a subsistence crop. Further Uttar Pradesh is the largest producer of mangoes in India, which is again not a subsistence crop. So it is not as if Uttar Pradeshi farmers are growing subsistence crops so as to survive as you seem to imagine.

Second, Tamil Nadu also has water shortage but we do not have farmers in Tamil Nadu committing suicide in such huge numbers as is the case in Andhra Pradesh.

Sainath has to be appreciated for highlighting the issue of farmers' suicides but he cannot possibly be the last word when it comes to interpreting why these suicides are happening in large numbers in certain specific regions of India.

by Merlot Daruwala Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:31 pm

Rashmun wrote: Overall, 15 of 28 States showed worse averages in the second eight years. Across the entire 16 years from 1995-2010, more than a quarter of a million Indian farmers have committed suicide.

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/columns/sainath/article2687160.ece

Of the 1.8 mill suicides in India during this period, a mere 250K i.e. 14% were by farmers, way below their representation in the general population. Why then is there so much fuss over `farmer suicides'? I don't hear similar rhetoric around `student suicides' or `housewife suicides'.

by Maria S Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:33 pm

Well, unfortunately and apparently Chennai unfortunately tops the list of suicides in India..when it comes "love- related" suicides..well, I said we are "falling for romance and romantic folks" even before I looked up any info on suicides..

*I have not read all the posts in this thread..if anything "suicides related to love and romance" are more relevant to why Aradhana was a mega hit in TN!

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-01-24/chennai/28351356_1_suicide-prevention-chennai-tops-cities

Excerpt:

"Generally, in Tamil Nadu and in Chennai a lot of value is attached to relationships and in case of a love failure, young people tend to think it is the end of life," says Dr S Abhilasha, a psychotherapist. She is the founder of Aarudhal Charitable trust, a psychological counselling and suicide prevention centre in the city.

In order to address this issue, Dr Abhilasha says that professional intervention and an emotional support system were very important for young people to give a vent to their feelings. "Media also plays a huge role in this and our movies ought to stop portraying love as the be-all-and-end-all of life," she says.

___________

Frankly..I think issues related to suicide- anywhere are far too complex..than any single factor..

*As anyone knows..the rates of suicide are soaring in the US..it has #1 cause of death..in some age groups..surpassing Motor Vehicle accidents..now and has to be of concern to everyone.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:39 pm

i'd imagine academic failures also weigh heavily on a young person from chennai as it would elsewhere. the kind of pressures that kids in junior and senior years of high school in india is just unbelievable.

by Idéfix Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:03 pm

Rashmun wrote:So it is not as if Uttar Pradeshi farmers are growing subsistence crops so as to survive as you seem to imagine.

Here is the Uttar Pradesh Development Report 2011 from the Planning Commission of India:

Area under foodgrain crops confined around 20 to 21 m ha between 1980 and 2000. This was 83% of the total cultivated area in Uttar PRadesh in the TE 1999/2000. It was exceedingly ahead of the national level area under foodgrain crops, which was about 66% in the same period.

Farmers in UP are "exceedingly" more dependent on foodgrains than the national average.

See page 28 here: http://planningcommission.nic.in/plans/stateplan/upsdr/vol-2/Chap_b1.pdf

by Idéfix Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:05 pm

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
Rashmun wrote: Overall, 15 of 28 States showed worse averages in the second eight years. Across the entire 16 years from 1995-2010, more than a quarter of a million Indian farmers have committed suicide.

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/columns/sainath/article2687160.ece

Of the 1.8 mill suicides in India during this period, a mere 250K i.e. 14% were by farmers, way below their representation in the general population.

This is because farmers are not as poor as businessmen, politicians, housewives and students.

by Maria S Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:07 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i'd imagine academic failures also weigh heavily on a young person from chennai as it would elsewhere. the kind of pressures that kids in junior and senior years of high school in india is just unbelievable.

Sure, that's another one.

Obviously..it's often complex with family medical history-esp. depression, and a range of multifactorial triggers.

by Guest Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:11 pm

panini press wrote:
Rashmun wrote:So it is not as if Uttar Pradeshi farmers are growing subsistence crops so as to survive as you seem to imagine.
Here is the Uttar Pradesh Development Report 2011 from the Planning Commission of India:

Area under foodgrain crops confined around 20 to 21 m ha between 1980 and 2000. This was 83% of the total cultivated area in Uttar PRadesh in the TE 1999/2000. It was exceedingly ahead of the national level area under foodgrain crops, which was about 66% in the same period.

Farmers in UP are "exceedingly" more dependent on foodgrains than the national average.

See page 28 here: http://planningcommission.nic.in/plans/stateplan/upsdr/vol-2/Chap_b1.pdf

And so 17% of the total cultivated area in Uttar Pradesh can produce various cash crops including sufficient amount of sugarcane and mangoes (both being cash crops) so as to make the state the second largest producer of sugarcane and the largest of mangoes in all of India?

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:14 pm

rashmun your home state and its punishing level of poverty should be a source of shame to you. i'm surprised you won't acknowledge that. instead you're on about some tangential issue.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:31 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i'd imagine academic failures also weigh heavily on a young person from chennai as it would elsewhere. the kind of pressures that kids in junior and senior years of high school in india is just unbelievable.

Not so anymore... Those who aim for JEE still under pressure. But, they all know they WILL get an engineering seat at some place - more likely in one of the NITs, or other decent schools.

Hey they also know, that if they don't get into any decent school in India, they always have Berkeley or Cornell as Backups.

by Guest Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:37 pm

Rashmun wrote:
panini press wrote:
Rashmun wrote:So it is not as if Uttar Pradeshi farmers are growing subsistence crops so as to survive as you seem to imagine.
Here is the Uttar Pradesh Development Report 2011 from the Planning Commission of India:

Area under foodgrain crops confined around 20 to 21 m ha between 1980 and 2000. This was 83% of the total cultivated area in Uttar PRadesh in the TE 1999/2000. It was exceedingly ahead of the national level area under foodgrain crops, which was about 66% in the same period.

Farmers in UP are "exceedingly" more dependent on foodgrains than the national average.

See page 28 here: http://planningcommission.nic.in/plans/stateplan/upsdr/vol-2/Chap_b1.pdf

And so 17% of the total cultivated area in Uttar Pradesh can produce various cash crops including sufficient amount of sugarcane and mangoes (both being cash crops) so as to make the state the second largest producer of sugarcane and the largest of mangoes in all of India?

Correction: Uttar Pradesh has now become the largest producer of sugar cane in India as per various online sources. (Do a google search for 'Uttar Pradesh largest producer of sugar cane'). This is a reminder to us that we should stay abreast of situation and not jump to conclusions based on data that has now become obsolete.

by Guest Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:39 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:rashmun your home state and its punishing level of poverty should be a source of shame to you. i'm surprised you won't acknowledge that. instead you're on about some tangential issue.

Max, did you know that Uttar Pradesh is the largest producer of sugar cane and mangoes in India ?

by Guest Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:50 pm

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
Rashmun wrote: Overall, 15 of 28 States showed worse averages in the second eight years. Across the entire 16 years from 1995-2010, more than a quarter of a million Indian farmers have committed suicide.

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/columns/sainath/article2687160.ece

Of the 1.8 mill suicides in India during this period, a mere 250K i.e. 14% were by farmers, way below their representation in the general population. Why then is there so much fuss over `farmer suicides'? I don't hear similar rhetoric around `student suicides' or `housewife suicides'.

What is puzzling is why the farmers' suicides are occurring in high numbers in certain specific regions of India with relatively high GDP. For instance, Maharashtra and Andhra Pradesh. Why is this phenomenon occurring a lot less in a place like Uttar Pradesh which has a lower GDP? The answer does not lie in the claim that places like AP and Maharashtra depend more on cash crops (in which more risk is involved with respect to production as compared to subsistence crops), because Uttar Pradesh is the largest producer in India of two important cash crops: Sugarcane and mangoes.

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:28 pm

Maria S wrote:I see- Maslow's hierarchy of needs in ref to movies- with mass appeal a little differently..

*For most people "entertaining" movies- esp. the masses (average-poor)..is an escape..one can argue about their "taste"..and what is superior/inferior..but, that would be subjective too!

Did not want to forget the BIG "Motherhood" angle in Aardhana..which is universally appealing as well.

Movies like Aradhana have all those "escape elements" aligned well..it's not too depressing, somewhat relatable, not to mention the "sacrificing mother"..with a somewhat happy ending.

"Self-actualization"!

Sometimes, it is important to remind our extremely brilliant CHer about it! tongue

by Guest Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:40 pm

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Maria S wrote:I see- Maslow's hierarchy of needs in ref to movies- with mass appeal a little differently..

*For most people "entertaining" movies- esp. the masses (average-poor)..is an escape..one can argue about their "taste"..and what is superior/inferior..but, that would be subjective too!

Did not want to forget the BIG "Motherhood" angle in Aardhana..which is universally appealing as well.

Movies like Aradhana have all those "escape elements" aligned well..it's not too depressing, somewhat relatable, not to mention the "sacrificing mother"..with a somewhat happy ending.

"Self-actualization"!

Sometimes, it is important to remind our extremely brilliant CHer about it!

Are you referring now to the 'Juvenile Atheist' or to the 'UP bhaiyya'?
On another note, i am preparing a blog titled 'Charvakas--Wise men or Fools?' I hope you will enjoy reading it.

by Kayalvizhi Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:58 pm

<< Uttar Pradesh is the second largest producer of sugar cane in India (after Maharashtra).

http://www.tamiltribune.com/02/1101.html

20041002 Tamilnadu Sugarcane Growers get a Bitter Pill from India (by C. Arunachalam), TAMIL TRIBUNE, October 2004 (7 KB) (e)

Economic discrimination of Tamil Nadu sugarcane growers by Indian Government. Indian government's special favors to Haryana, Uttaranchal and Uttar Pradesh sugarcane growers; all three are Hindi states.

Is India;s economic discriminatu=ion of Southern farmers contributibg to the large number of suicides? Someone please research this.

by Guest Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:28 pm

Kayalvizhi wrote:<< Uttar Pradesh is the second largest producer of sugar cane in India (after Maharashtra).

http://www.tamiltribune.com/02/1101.html

20041002 Tamilnadu Sugarcane Growers get a Bitter Pill from India (by C. Arunachalam), TAMIL TRIBUNE, October 2004 (7 KB) (e)

Economic discrimination of Tamil Nadu sugarcane growers by Indian Government. Indian government's special favors to Haryana, Uttaranchal and Uttar Pradesh sugarcane growers; all three are Hindi states.

Is India;s economic discriminatu=ion of Southern farmers contributibg to the large number of suicides? Someone please research this.

the largest number of farmers' suicides is taking place in Maharashtra. The Union Minister for Agriculture in India is from Maharashtra. Also, here is something for you:

Hindi film Aradhana had created a sensation in Tamil Nadu - Page 2 Mahinda_rajapaksa

Hindi film Aradhana had created a sensation in Tamil Nadu - Page 2 Mahinda_rajapaksa

by Idéfix Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:43 pm

Rashmun wrote:The answer does not lie in the claim that places like AP and Maharashtra depend more on cash crops

What does it lie in?

PS: Let me give you an example that will help you understand why "being the largest producer of sugarcane" does not mean that the majority of UP farmers don't rely on foodgrains. Among the states of India, UP is the largest producer of mentally retarded children. That does not mean the majority of UP children are mentally retarded. And it most certainly does not account for the difference in interest in classical music traditions between UP and TN. Hope that helps.

by Guest Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:48 pm

panini press wrote:
Rashmun wrote:The answer does not lie in the claim that places like AP and Maharashtra depend more on cash crops
What does it lie in?

PS: Let me give you an example that will help you understand why "being the largest producer of sugarcane" does not mean that the majority of UP farmers don't rely on foodgrains. Among the states of India, UP is the largest producer of mentally retarded children. That does not mean the majority of UP children are mentally retarded.

The reason why UP is the largest producer in India of retarded children and also of people with high IQ is because the population of UP exceeds 200 million. It is almost one fifth of India in terms of population.

With respect to your claim that UP farmers are engaging mostly in subsistence farming and not focussing on cash crops, i have already shown it to be false since UP is the largest producer in India of sugarcane and also of mangoes which are both cash crops and not subsistence crops.

by Idéfix Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:56 pm

Rashmun wrote:
panini press wrote:
Rashmun wrote:The answer does not lie in the claim that places like AP and Maharashtra depend more on cash crops
What does it lie in?

PS: Let me give you an example that will help you understand why "being the largest producer of sugarcane" does not mean that the majority of UP farmers don't rely on foodgrains. Among the states of India, UP is the largest producer of mentally retarded children. That does not mean the majority of UP children are mentally retarded.

The reason why UP is the largest producer in India of retarded children and also of people with high IQ is because the population of UP exceeds 200 million. It is almost one fifth of India in terms of population.

With respect to your claim that UP farmers are engaging mostly in subsistence farming and not focussing on cash crops, i have already shown it to be false since UP is the largest producer in India of sugarcane and also of mangoes which are both cash crops and not subsistence crops.

UP is India's largest producer of mentally retarded children. UP is also India's largest producer of medium-IQ children. In fact, most UP children possess medium IQ. Do you see how that works?

Now (slowly) consider this. UP is the largest producer of sugarcane and mangoes. UP is also big time into food crops. Do you see how that works? As the data from the Planning Commission report last year shows, 83% of crop acreage in UP is devoted to food crops, compared to a much lower national average -- so UP farmers are more dependent on food crops than are the farmers of other states.

by Guest Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:03 pm

panini press wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
panini press wrote:
Rashmun wrote:The answer does not lie in the claim that places like AP and Maharashtra depend more on cash crops
What does it lie in?

PS: Let me give you an example that will help you understand why "being the largest producer of sugarcane" does not mean that the majority of UP farmers don't rely on foodgrains. Among the states of India, UP is the largest producer of mentally retarded children. That does not mean the majority of UP children are mentally retarded.

The reason why UP is the largest producer in India of retarded children and also of people with high IQ is because the population of UP exceeds 200 million. It is almost one fifth of India in terms of population.

With respect to your claim that UP farmers are engaging mostly in subsistence farming and not focussing on cash crops, i have already shown it to be false since UP is the largest producer in India of sugarcane and also of mangoes which are both cash crops and not subsistence crops.

UP is India's largest producer of mentally retarded children. UP is also India's largest producer of medium-IQ children. In fact, most UP children possess medium IQ. Do you see how that works?

Now (slowly) consider this. UP is the largest producer of sugarcane and mangoes. UP is also big time into food crops. Do you see how that works? As the data from the Planning Commission report last year shows, 83% of crop acreage in UP is devoted to food crops, compared to a much lower national average -- so UP farmers are more dependent on food crops than are the farmers of other states.

The data you gave is obsolete since it is many years old. UP is developing rapidly and forming opinions based on data that is more than a decade old as you are now doing would inevitably lead to wrong conclusions. The fact remains that UP is the largest producer of sugarcane and mangoes in India and your claim that the farmers of UP are focussing on subsistence crops has been shown to be patently false.

by Guest Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:40 pm

Only in the last 2-3 years has Uttar Pradesh become the largest producer of sugarcane in India. All along it used to be at Number 2 place with Maharashtra occupying the top position. Together, the two states (UP and Maharashtra) account for approximately 60% of India's sugarcane production.

by b_A Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:00 pm

Here is one more news item highlighting the backwardness of UP.

http://www.rediff.com/business/slide-show/slide-show-1-states-paying-highest-and-lowest-/20120917.htm

Population wise AP is less than half of UP, but AP contributes more to the exchequer.

And it not based on "obsolete" data either.

by Idéfix Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:12 pm

Rashmun wrote:The data you gave is obsolete since it is many years old.

This research report with fresh data shows that UP produced 44.26 million tons a year on average in the five years through 2011. UP's yield on foodgrains averaged 2.26 tons/hectare in 2009-2010. This means UP had on average around 20 million hectares dedicated to foodgrains. The total agricultural land area in UP is around 26-27 million hectares. So even as late as 2011, around 74% of UP's crop area is dedicated to foodgrains. This compares to about 40% of crop area in Maharashtra being used for foodgrains. That difference is a big contributor to the difference in farmer suicide rates.

http://www.todayseconomics.in/news.php?newsid=476
http://planningcommission.nic.in/plans/stateplan/sdr_maha/ch-3-14-02-05.pdf

by Idéfix Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:17 pm

Rashmun wrote:Only in the last 2-3 years has Uttar Pradesh become the largest producer of sugarcane in India. All along it used to be at Number 2 place with Maharashtra occupying the top position. Together, the two states (UP and Maharashtra) account for approximately 60% of India's sugarcane production.

You are confused. From the Planning Commission report that cites the data you called "obsolete":

It may be mentioned that Uttar Pradesh was the largest sugarcane producing state in the country. Almost half of the total sugarcane area in the country during 1997-98 was confined in Uttar Pradesh. But with respect to sugar production, it was next to Maharashtra.

UP may have overtaken MH in terms of sugar production (i.e. milling sugarcane to produce sugar), but UP was a big player in sugarcane cultivation when the numbers I originally cited were compiled.

by Guest Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:18 pm

b_A wrote:Here is one more news item highlighting the backwardness of UP.

http://www.rediff.com/business/slide-show/slide-show-1-states-paying-highest-and-lowest-/20120917.htm

Population wise AP is less than half of UP, but AP contributes more to the exchequer.

And it not based on "obsolete" data either.

This data is irrelevant because the number 1 state in terms of 'assessed tax revenues'--Maharashtra--also has the largest number of farmers' suicides.

UP might be economically less wealthy as compared to some of the other Indian states, but culturally it is perhaps the most important of all the Indian states. It was in UP, for example, that the Upanisads were composed. It was in UP also where the Budha gave his first public sermon and where he died; he was born very close to the UP border in modern Nepal. UP is also associated with Lord Krishna, Radha, Balarama (Mathura, Vrindavan, Barsana, Govardhana hill, etc.) and Lord Rama (Chitrakoot, Kamadgiri hill, etc.). UP is also home to one of the most sacred of all spots to hindus--the Sangam at Prayag--which is the confluence of the Ganga and the Yamuna rivers.

Besides the religious places and monuments, UP is also home to the Taj Mahal which the whole world has heard of and knows about.

Furthermore, UP was in the forefront of the struggle in the Indian war of independence in 1857. In contrast, other states like modern day AP (ruled by the Nizams) preferred to collaborate and collude with the British.

by Idéfix Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:21 pm

Rashmun wrote: the Upanisads were composed... the Budha gave his first public sermon ... Lord Krishna, Radha, Balarama (Mathura, Vrindavan, Barsana, Govardhana hill, etc.) and Lord Rama (Chitrakoot, Kamadgiri hill, etc.) ... the Taj Mahal

There is a saying in Telugu that literally translates to: "our grandfathers drank ghee; now smell our mouths."

by Guest Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:36 pm

panini press wrote:
Rashmun wrote: the Upanisads were composed... the Budha gave his first public sermon ... Lord Krishna, Radha, Balarama (Mathura, Vrindavan, Barsana, Govardhana hill, etc.) and Lord Rama (Chitrakoot, Kamadgiri hill, etc.) ... the Taj Mahal
There is a saying in Telugu that literally translates to: "our grandfathers drank ghee; now smell our mouths."

The Sisodias of Mewar are one of many Rajput royal family clans. They are not wealthy, in fact they are poor as compared to many other Rajput royal families. But they are automatically and by universal consensus amongst the Rajput royal families placed at the top of the Rajput hierarchy when it comes to status.

The reason given is that the Sisodias of Mewar refused to make peace with the mughals. Rana Pratap, an ancestor of present day Sisodias, continued fighting against Akbar till his death and it was only later that Rana Pratap's son Amar made peace with Akbar's son Jahangir. But there was a condition: No woman from the Sisodia clan would join the harem of the mughal ruler as was customary for women from the other rajput clans. After the decline and downfall of the mughals, the fact that the Sisodias of Mewar stood upto the mughals who were much superior to them in military strength was a matter of pride for the Sisodias, and none of the other Rajput clans begrudged the Sisodias this pride.

Similarly, the average UPwalah should take pride in the fact that his ancestors were in the forefront of the fight against the british in the 1857 war of independence and the average Telugu--whose ancestors collaborated and colluded with the british for the most part during the 1857 war of independence--should not begrudge the UPite this pride.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:39 pm

i don't know what rashmun means by culturally the most important. our own individual cultures are the most important to each of us. i for example am quite proud that i speak what is perhaps the oldest extant spoken language of india with a very rich literary tradition. compared to that the language of UP is quite recent. the telugus can rightfully claim an important musical tradition. what exactly do the words "most important" mean in a cultural context?

by Guest Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:43 pm

panini press wrote:
Rashmun wrote:Only in the last 2-3 years has Uttar Pradesh become the largest producer of sugarcane in India. All along it used to be at Number 2 place with Maharashtra occupying the top position. Together, the two states (UP and Maharashtra) account for approximately 60% of India's sugarcane production.

You are confused. From the Planning Commission report that cites the data you called "obsolete":

It may be mentioned that Uttar Pradesh was the largest sugarcane producing state in the country. Almost half of the total sugarcane area in the country during 1997-98 was confined in Uttar Pradesh. But with respect to sugar production, it was next to Maharashtra.

UP may have overtaken MH in terms of sugar production (i.e. milling sugarcane to produce sugar), but UP was a big player in sugarcane cultivation when the numbers I originally cited were compiled.

UP has in fact overtaken Maharashtra in sugarcane production in the last few years. the planning commission is saying the area under sugarcane cultivation was largest in UP, and that sugar production was largest in Maharashtra, but it is silent on the question of sugarcane production. you should be able to access several online articles mentioning how UP overtook Maharashtra as the number 1 sugarcane producer in the last 2-3 years. Meanwhile, this is a good read:

http://www.indiaspend.com/sectors/how-up-beats-maharashtra-gujarat-in-agriculture-productivity

by Guest Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:44 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i don't know what rashmun means by culturally the most important. our own individual cultures are the most important to each of us. i for example am quite proud that i speak what is perhaps the oldest extant spoken language of india with a very rich literary tradition. compared to that the language of UP is quite recent. the telugus can rightfully claim an important musical tradition. what exactly do the words "most important" mean in a cultural context?

From the point of view of Hinduism, UP is far more important than either AP or Tamil Nadu. Likewise from the point of view of Budhism. And the most famous monument in India is in UP.

by Idéfix Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:52 pm

Rashmun wrote:the average Telugu--whose ancestors collaborated and colluded with the british for the most part during the 1857 war of independence--should not begrudge the UPite this pride.

How about the average Telugu whose ancestors fought against the Nizam -- the biggest collaborator the British had on the subcontinent? I thought your sympathies in that one lay with the Nizam, but just want to be sure Smile

.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:54 pm

the three pillars of the hindu philosophical system shankara, ramanuja, and madhvacharya were all southern indians.

that aside, religion and religious philosophy are but one aspect of culture. language, mathematics, music, recorded literature, and art are other more important aspects of culture. and in all of these the various southern indian states excelled way more than utthar pradesh. so rashmun's ridiculous claims are rejected.

by Guest Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:55 pm

panini press wrote:
Rashmun wrote:the average Telugu--whose ancestors collaborated and colluded with the british for the most part during the 1857 war of independence--should not begrudge the UPite this pride.
How about the average Telugu whose ancestors fought against the Nizam -- the biggest collaborator the British had on the subcontinent? I thought your sympathies in that one lay with the Nizam, but just want to be sure .

My understanding is that even though the Nizams colluded and collaborated with the British, they were not communal. At any rate, your question is presumably about the last Nizam of Hyderabad and not about the Nizam who was in power during the 1857 war of independence.

by Idéfix Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:55 pm

Rashmun wrote:
panini press wrote:
Rashmun wrote:Only in the last 2-3 years has Uttar Pradesh become the largest producer of sugarcane in India. All along it used to be at Number 2 place with Maharashtra occupying the top position. Together, the two states (UP and Maharashtra) account for approximately 60% of India's sugarcane production.

You are confused. From the Planning Commission report that cites the data you called "obsolete":

It may be mentioned that Uttar Pradesh was the largest sugarcane producing state in the country. Almost half of the total sugarcane area in the country during 1997-98 was confined in Uttar Pradesh. But with respect to sugar production, it was next to Maharashtra.

UP may have overtaken MH in terms of sugar production (i.e. milling sugarcane to produce sugar), but UP was a big player in sugarcane cultivation when the numbers I originally cited were compiled.

UP has in fact overtaken Maharashtra in sugarcane production in the last few years. the planning commission is saying the area under sugarcane cultivation was largest in UP, and that sugar production was largest in Maharashtra, but it is silent on the question of sugarcane production. you should be able to access several online articles mentioning how UP overtook Maharashtra as the number 1 sugarcane producer in the last 2-3 years. Meanwhile, this is a good read:

http://www.indiaspend.com/sectors/how-up-beats-maharashtra-gujarat-in-agriculture-productivity

Precisely when UP overtook MH in sugarcane production is a moot point to this discussion. If UP already had the country's largest acreage devoted to sugarcane anywhere in the country at the time when 83% of its acreage was devoted to foodgrains, then my point about the difference is clearly made. UP farmers devote more of their cropland to foodgrains than do MH farmers. They did that around 2000, and they do that now. That goes a long way in explaining the higher suicide race among MH farmers.

by Idéfix Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:58 pm

Rashmun wrote:From the point of view of Hinduism, UP is far more important than either AP or Tamil Nadu. Likewise from the point of view of Budhism. And the most famous monument in India is in UP.

All of which has exactly zilch to do with the original question: is UP poorer than MH, TN, AP, etc. and does that have anything to do with spare time for cultural pursuits for its residents? What matters now is the current economic status. After flailing around with GDP, farmer suicides, MPI, etc., you acknowledged that UP is poorer: "UP might be economically less wealthy as compared to some of the other Indian states." That's the point that Max was trying to make.

by Kayalvizhi Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:59 pm

>>>> the average UPwalah should take pride in the fact that his ancestors were in the forefront of the fight against the british in the 1857 war of independence

Despite Hindian gov propaganda, 1857 is not the first uprising against British in South asia.

Indian Government deliberately tries to hide historical facts such as Maruthu Pandiyar's fight against the British. Indian Government celebrated the 100-th anniversary of the Sepoy mutiny with great fanfare. There were numerous programs about the mutiny in the Indian Government controlled All India Radio. But not even a mention was made in All India Radio about Maruthu Pandiyar led rebellion against the British on its 150-th anniversary.

[UPDATE added in October 2010: Indian Parliament commemorated in 2007 the 150th anniversary of north-Indian Sepoy Mutiny of 1857 as the First Indian Independence War but there was no such commemorat of the 200th anniversary of the south-Indian Vellore Mutiny in 2006. This seems to have irked the former Tamil Nadu Chief Minister Ms. Jayalalithaa Jeyaram. On August 14, 2007, she expressed shock at the National Implementation Committee for Commemoration of the 150th Anniversary of the First War of Independence for not recognizing stalwarts and heroes from India’s southern peninsula. She pointed out that chieftains from Tamil Nadu waged wars against British rule well before 1857. She recalled the role of Pulithevan, Velunachiyar, Muthuramalinga Vijayaragunatha Sethupathy and the Maruthu Pandiar brothers in the fight against British rule. She said, "Ms. Velunachiyar’s role was no less than that of the Jhansi Rani". [Jhansi Rani was from north India.] In September 2010, Indian Government Ministry of Culture announced grants of Rupees 2 crore (20 million) each to conduct research on 12 freedom fighters from north-Indian Sepoy Mutiny but nothing to do research on south-Indian Vellore Mutiny or any of the freedom fighters from Tamil Nadu or other southern states. Thus Tamil Nadu's early wars against British rule were ignored and swept under the rug while north_indian wars are researched and publicized.

Read more at
http://www.tamiltribune.com/04/0501.html

by Guest Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:00 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:the three pillars of the hindu philosophical system shankara, ramanuja, and madhvacharya were all southern indians.

that aside, religion and religious philosophy are but one aspect of culture. language, mathematics, music, recorded literature, and art are other more important aspects of culture. and in all of these the various southern indian states excelled way more than utthar pradesh. so rashmun's ridiculous claims are rejected.

Adi Sankaracharya became famous only after his pilgrimage to Benaras where he took part in debates and won over many followers who helped him set up his centers in four different corners of modern India. Had he remained in his native Kerala, he may have remained unknown. North Indians, particularly the scholars in Benaras, played a major role in Adi Sankara capturing the Indian imagination.

Ramanujacharya was a tamil and spent most of his life in Tamil Nadu, but had to flee from TN for fear of his life after he started getting persecuted by the Saivites who did not like the fact that he was preaching Vaisnavism. This is a unique feature of South Indian hinduism--clashes between followers of Shiva and Vishnu have never occurred in North India.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:03 pm

panini press wrote:
Rashmun wrote:From the point of view of Hinduism, UP is far more important than either AP or Tamil Nadu. Likewise from the point of view of Budhism. And the most famous monument in India is in UP.
All of which has exactly zilch to do with the original question: is UP poorer than MH, TN, AP, etc. and does that have anything to do with spare time for cultural pursuits for its residents? What matters now is the current economic status. After flailing around with GDP, farmer suicides, MPI, etc., you acknowledged that UP is poorer: "UP might be economically less wealthy as compared to some of the other Indian states." That's the point that Max was trying to make.

that discussion is done and dusted. rashmun lost that one although he didn't graciously acknowledge it. he is now trying to salvage some historical pride for his home state.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:05 pm

Rashmun wrote:This is a unique feature of South Indian hinduism--clashes between followers of Shiva and Vishnu have never occurred in North India.

right. when you are running away from marauding hordes and trying to protect your life and your women folk from getting raped and your village from being pillaged, there is no time for infighting.

by Guest Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:06 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
panini press wrote:
Rashmun wrote:From the point of view of Hinduism, UP is far more important than either AP or Tamil Nadu. Likewise from the point of view of Budhism. And the most famous monument in India is in UP.
All of which has exactly zilch to do with the original question: is UP poorer than MH, TN, AP, etc. and does that have anything to do with spare time for cultural pursuits for its residents? What matters now is the current economic status. After flailing around with GDP, farmer suicides, MPI, etc., you acknowledged that UP is poorer: "UP might be economically less wealthy as compared to some of the other Indian states." That's the point that Max was trying to make.

that discussion is done and dusted. rashmun lost that one although he didn't graciously acknowledge it. he is now trying to salvage some historical pride for his home state.

Max, i have not yet even begun answering the question of whether the average UPwalah has as much spare time as the average tamilian which is why he does not take as much interest in classical music as the average tamilian. I have not even attempted to address this issue. I will though. But not in this thread. It deserves a fresh thread.

by Idéfix Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:08 pm

Rashmun wrote:UP has in fact overtaken Maharashtra in sugarcane production in the last few years.

For a moment, I was inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt regarding a statement you made so emphatically. Then better sense prevailed, and I looked it up. Turns out you are completely wrong as usual. Between 1993 and 2002, UP had annual sugarcane output between 100 and 130 million tons. Maharashtra during that time ranged between 28 and 53 million tons.

Page 12 of: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CCcQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdsd.dacnet.nic.in%2Fprodstat.doc&ei=2JxrUO2UKIj_qwGR9YCwBQ&usg=AFQjCNFe1MLLSMWLwnJRH3thXzTYlUPaCg&sig2=Ppj5Z51bmpd5wtQFyc796w

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:10 pm

rashmun you should read naipaul's "india, a wounded civilization" to psychoanalyze yourself. you'll enjoy the exercise.

by Guest Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:15 pm

panini press wrote:
Rashmun wrote:UP has in fact overtaken Maharashtra in sugarcane production in the last few years.
For a moment, I was inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt regarding a statement you made so emphatically. Then better sense prevailed, and I looked it up. Turns out you are completely wrong as usual. Between 1993 and 2002, UP had annual sugarcane output between 100 and 130 million tons. Maharashtra during that time ranged between 28 and 53 million tons.

Page 12 of: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CCcQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdsd.dacnet.nic.in%2Fprodstat.doc&ei=2JxrUO2UKIj_qwGR9YCwBQ&usg=AFQjCNFe1MLLSMWLwnJRH3thXzTYlUPaCg&sig2=Ppj5Z51bmpd5wtQFyc796w

That should have been sugar production instead of sugarcane production.

-----

Uttar Pradesh is set to overtake Maharashtra as the country's largest sugar producer, with the latter likely to experience two consecutive years of output decline.

During the 2000-01 crushing season (October-September), factories in Maharashtra produced a record 67.19 lakh tonnes (lt) of sugar, as against 65.03 lt in 1999-2000, 52.76 lt in 1998-99, 38.47 lt in 1997-98 and 34.45 lt in 1996-97.

But according to Mr Prakash Naiknavare, Managing Director of the Maharashtra State Cooperative Sugar Factories Federation Ltd. (MSCSFL), the State's sugar output would be only 50 lt in the 2001-02 season and would fall further to about 48 lt in the following season beginning October 2002. ''During 2000-01, our factories crushed 576 lt tonnes of sugarcane. In the current season, we will crush only 415 lt, which would decline further to less than 400 lt in 2002-02'', he told Business Line.

Mr Naiknavare's projections are based on the fact that roughly three-fourths of Maharashtra's total cane area is accounted for by the 15-month `pre-seasonal' crop, whose plantings start from April and stretch till December.

Thus, the cane that is crushed in October 2001 is the crop that would have been planted around July 2000.

"We have not had good monsoon rains either in 2000 or 2001. The resultant moisture stress in our cane growing areas has adversely affected the sowing of the pre-seasonal crop in both the years. This would be reflected in reduced cane available for crushing during the current as well the 2002-03 seasons'', Mr Naiknavare said.

While Maharashtra's sugar output is slated to fall by over 17 lt this year, there is no such decline being forecast for Uttar Pradesh. From 37.30 lt in 1998-99 to 45.56 lt in 1999-2000 and 46.72 lt in 2000-01 (see Table), production may cross 48 lt in the current season. "If not in the current season, UP will definitely emerge as the number one sugar producer in the next season,'' Mr S.L. Jain, Director-General of the Indian Sugar Mills Association (ISMA) said.

He pointed out that, unlike in Maharashtra, sugar output in UP is influenced less by the vagaries of the monsoon and more by the extent to which cane grown in the State is diverted to the production of alternate sweeteners, such as gur (jaggery) and khandsari. In fact, despite its sugar output being lower, UP produces more than twice the cane that is harvested in Maharashtra.

In 1999-2000, for instance, sugarcane output in UP stood at 115.42 million tonnes (mt), compared to 53.14 mt for Maharashtra. However, its sugar production was only 45.56 lt, against 65.03 lt in Maharashtra. This mainly had to do with the fact that out of UP's total cane output of 115.42 mt during 1999-2000, only 48.79 mt or 42.3 per cent was used for crushing by sugar mills. As much as 43.5 per cent was consumed by gur/khandsari units, with the balance 14.2 per cent cane going for seed, feed, chewing, etc.

This is in contrast to the situation in Maharashtra, where there is no diversion of sugarcane for gur/khandsari production. In 1999-2000, the factories crushed 57.08 mt of cane, which was actually more than the State's own production of 53.14 mt. The mills, therefore, needed to source additional cane from neighbouring States like Karnataka.

The diversion of sugarcane to gur/khandsari units takes place largely because of the latter not paying any tax on purchase of cane or on their final product. Also, unlike sugar mills, gur/khandsari units do not have to sell any part of their produce as levy (at subsidised rates) to the Government.

As a result, these units are often able to pay higher cane prices to growers. Only in Maharashtra_ where sugar mills are predominantly cooperatives owned by the growers themselves_do growers have little incentive to divert their cane.

However, even in UP, the extent of cane diversion has come down from nearly 55 per cent in 1997-98 to 43.5 per cent last year. This percentage is expected to fall further, with the levy obligation on sugar mills being progressively reduced from 40 per cent to 15 per cent now.

The State Government has also abolished the purchase tax on sugarcane, even while `advising' sugar mills to pay a higher cane price of Rs 95-100 per quintal to growers in the current season.

''In the long run, it is UP that is going to be the country's leading sugar producer. UP is also more suited for growing sugarcane because the water-table levels in the Indo-Gangetic plain are only 10-15 feet, whereas they are below 300 feet in Maharashtra'', Mr Jain added.

http://nt.walletwatch.com/ww/NewsView.asp?NewsID=85805&NewsBullet=0

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:25 pm

i have a colleague who grew up on a campus in utthar pradesh. i asked him what it was like to grow up in UP. he said he rather enjoyed the campus and its immediate environs, but the city he lived in and the state itself were shit holes (he said he was putting it politely) that he was happy to leave at the first available opportunity.

by Idéfix Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:25 pm

Rashmun wrote:That should have been sugar production instead of sugarcane production.

Haha, now that your mistake is amply clear even to yourself, you finally acknowledge something I told you more than a dozen posts upthread! Thanks.

by Guest Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:28 pm

Rashmun wrote:
panini press wrote:
Rashmun wrote:UP has in fact overtaken Maharashtra in sugarcane production in the last few years.
For a moment, I was inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt regarding a statement you made so emphatically. Then better sense prevailed, and I looked it up. Turns out you are completely wrong as usual. Between 1993 and 2002, UP had annual sugarcane output between 100 and 130 million tons. Maharashtra during that time ranged between 28 and 53 million tons.

Page 12 of: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CCcQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdsd.dacnet.nic.in%2Fprodstat.doc&ei=2JxrUO2UKIj_qwGR9YCwBQ&usg=AFQjCNFe1MLLSMWLwnJRH3thXzTYlUPaCg&sig2=Ppj5Z51bmpd5wtQFyc796w

That should have been sugar production instead of sugarcane production.

-----

Uttar Pradesh is set to overtake Maharashtra as the country's largest sugar producer, with the latter likely to experience two consecutive years of output decline.

During the 2000-01 crushing season (October-September), factories in Maharashtra produced a record 67.19 lakh tonnes (lt) of sugar, as against 65.03 lt in 1999-2000, 52.76 lt in 1998-99, 38.47 lt in 1997-98 and 34.45 lt in 1996-97.

But according to Mr Prakash Naiknavare, Managing Director of the Maharashtra State Cooperative Sugar Factories Federation Ltd. (MSCSFL), the State's sugar output would be only 50 lt in the 2001-02 season and would fall further to about 48 lt in the following season beginning October 2002. ''During 2000-01, our factories crushed 576 lt tonnes of sugarcane. In the current season, we will crush only 415 lt, which would decline further to less than 400 lt in 2002-02'', he told Business Line.

Mr Naiknavare's projections are based on the fact that roughly three-fourths of Maharashtra's total cane area is accounted for by the 15-month `pre-seasonal' crop, whose plantings start from April and stretch till December.

Thus, the cane that is crushed in October 2001 is the crop that would have been planted around July 2000.

"We have not had good monsoon rains either in 2000 or 2001. The resultant moisture stress in our cane growing areas has adversely affected the sowing of the pre-seasonal crop in both the years. This would be reflected in reduced cane available for crushing during the current as well the 2002-03 seasons'', Mr Naiknavare said.

While Maharashtra's sugar output is slated to fall by over 17 lt this year, there is no such decline being forecast for Uttar Pradesh. From 37.30 lt in 1998-99 to 45.56 lt in 1999-2000 and 46.72 lt in 2000-01 (see Table), production may cross 48 lt in the current season. "If not in the current season, UP will definitely emerge as the number one sugar producer in the next season,'' Mr S.L. Jain, Director-General of the Indian Sugar Mills Association (ISMA) said.

He pointed out that, unlike in Maharashtra, sugar output in UP is influenced less by the vagaries of the monsoon and more by the extent to which cane grown in the State is diverted to the production of alternate sweeteners, such as gur (jaggery) and khandsari. In fact, despite its sugar output being lower, UP produces more than twice the cane that is harvested in Maharashtra.

In 1999-2000, for instance, sugarcane output in UP stood at 115.42 million tonnes (mt), compared to 53.14 mt for Maharashtra. However, its sugar production was only 45.56 lt, against 65.03 lt in Maharashtra. This mainly had to do with the fact that out of UP's total cane output of 115.42 mt during 1999-2000, only 48.79 mt or 42.3 per cent was used for crushing by sugar mills. As much as 43.5 per cent was consumed by gur/khandsari units, with the balance 14.2 per cent cane going for seed, feed, chewing, etc.

This is in contrast to the situation in Maharashtra, where there is no diversion of sugarcane for gur/khandsari production. In 1999-2000, the factories crushed 57.08 mt of cane, which was actually more than the State's own production of 53.14 mt. The mills, therefore, needed to source additional cane from neighbouring States like Karnataka.

The diversion of sugarcane to gur/khandsari units takes place largely because of the latter not paying any tax on purchase of cane or on their final product. Also, unlike sugar mills, gur/khandsari units do not have to sell any part of their produce as levy (at subsidised rates) to the Government.

As a result, these units are often able to pay higher cane prices to growers. Only in Maharashtra_ where sugar mills are predominantly cooperatives owned by the growers themselves_do growers have little incentive to divert their cane.

However, even in UP, the extent of cane diversion has come down from nearly 55 per cent in 1997-98 to 43.5 per cent last year. This percentage is expected to fall further, with the levy obligation on sugar mills being progressively reduced from 40 per cent to 15 per cent now.

The State Government has also abolished the purchase tax on sugarcane, even while `advising' sugar mills to pay a higher cane price of Rs 95-100 per quintal to growers in the current season.

''In the long run, it is UP that is going to be the country's leading sugar producer. UP is also more suited for growing sugarcane because the water-table levels in the Indo-Gangetic plain are only 10-15 feet, whereas they are below 300 feet in Maharashtra'', Mr Jain added.

http://nt.walletwatch.com/ww/NewsView.asp?NewsID=85805&NewsBullet=0

A more recent article:

http://www.financialexpress.com/news/up-pips-maharashtra-to-be-highest-sugar-producer/355317/0

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:36 pm

rashmun do you agree with this analysis of why your home state is such a basket case?

http://www.dnaindia.com/analysis/column_up-misses-date-with-modernity-due-to-backward-elites_1652354

by Guest Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:40 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:rashmun do you agree with this analysis of why your home state is such a basket case?

http://www.dnaindia.com/analysis/column_up-misses-date-with-modernity-due-to-backward-elites_1652354

it is a superficial analysis. it does not take into account the fact that after the 1857 war of independence was crushed the british developed those areas of India which had collaborated and colluded with them and made a deliberate attempt to keep those areas which had revolted against them backward.

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