Discrimination against the Dhoti

by Hellsangel Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:45 pm

http://www.ndtv.com/article/cities/under-fire-for-turning-away-dhoti-clad-judge-elite-chennai-club-rethinks-dress-code-558498

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:47 pm

Hellsangel wrote:http://www.ndtv.com/article/cities/under-fire-for-turning-away-dhoti-clad-judge-elite-chennai-club-rethinks-dress-code-558498

I have faced snide remarks whenever I went inside those glossy offices in my Veshti. I enjoyed the look on their faces when I usually spoke in English a couple of sentences before I left.

by truthbetold Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:52 pm

Is it dhoti or vesti?
This can happen only in India.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:56 pm

truthbetold wrote:Is it dhoti or vesti?
This can happen only in India.

neither. it is vEshti or vEtti.

by Hellsangel Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:56 pm

truthbetold wrote:Is it dhoti or vesti?
This can happen only in India.

This is one of those arangetram vs rangapravesham questions.

by indophile Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:03 pm

I think a white one is a veshti, and any colored one with some paisley or other flowers, fruits, and even modern art design is a lungi. But then in Chennai Express they were mostly wearing mostly white when they did that "lungi dance."

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:09 pm

indophile wrote:I think a white one is a veshti, and any colored one with some paisley or other flowers, fruits, and even modern art design is a lungi. But then in Chennai Express they were mostly wearing mostly white when they did that "lungi dance."

confused. you saw people dancing on a train in vEshtis?

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:13 pm

truthbetold wrote:Is it dhoti or vesti?
This can happen only in India.

Dhoti is Hindian for vEshti.

by Guest Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:14 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
indophile wrote:I think a white one is a veshti, and any colored one with some paisley or other flowers, fruits, and even modern art design is a lungi. But then in Chennai Express they were mostly wearing mostly white when they did that "lungi dance."

confused. you saw people dancing on a train in vEshtis?

what's so confusing about it?

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:21 pm

oh another one of those. you bollywoodians are endlessly fascinated by the most mundane things aren't you? and yet nasIruddin shah walks amongst you. ironic.

by Guest Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:24 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:oh another one of those. you bollywoodians are endlessly fascinated by the most mundane things aren't you? and yet nasIruddin shah walks amongst you. ironic.

hehe, he dances too.

by truthbetold Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:40 pm

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhoti

the correct word is pancha .

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:04 pm

truthbetold wrote:http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhoti

the correct word is pancha .

Tamil is not Gulti or Kannad - just saying.. Razz

by Propagandhi711 Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:23 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:oh another one of those. you bollywoodians are endlessly fascinated by the most mundane things aren't you? and yet nasIruddin shah walks amongst you. ironic.

prone to over doing it a wee bit on the hero worship, aren't you?

by truthbetold Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:49 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
truthbetold wrote:http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhoti

the correct word is pancha .

Tamil is not Gulti or Kannad - just saying..

i would say "Tamizh (Aravam ) is not Telugu(Telungu or Tenungu ) or Kannada"
Gulti or kannad are not languages.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:37 pm

wonder where the name aravam as a reference to tamil came from. aravam in tamil simply means sound, as in the thiruppavai stanza that starts with:

puLLum cilampina kaaN puLLaraiyan kOyilil *
veLLai viLicaNGkin pEraravam kEttilaiyO

simple translation. the poet saint is calling out to her sleeping friends:

it is dawn, others – humans, animals and birds are up from their sleep and therefore so should the girls, her friends. the sound of the white conch from the nearby temple is heard, so it really is daybreak, so dear girls, please wake up.

by truthbetold Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:04 pm

There may be more than one explanation for Aravam. One of them is it came from arava nadu or northern part of tn.

by b_A Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:53 pm

This "aravam" talk reminds me the funny dialog in K.Balachander's maro charitra (original ek dujhe ke liye) movie about love between tamil boy and telugu girl.

"arava vALLu aravam aravam ani arustUnE untAru ."
It's a pun ( cue to the evil loser to go mad with bhenkatrao bherandah talk) on aravam.
One meaning is that , tamilians keep shouting tamil! tamil! .
The p(f)un meaning is ... , I think you got it.
Balachander has some sense of humor.

by Kayalvizhi Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:57 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Is it dhoti or vesti?
This can happen only in India.

neither. it is vEshti or vEtti.

vEtti comes from the word vettu (cut) because vEtti is a cut piece of cloth.

by Kayalvizhi Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:06 pm

Beatrix Kiddo wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

confused. you saw people dancing on a train in vEshtis?

what's so confusing about it?

I don't know what these people are singing but it seems the words Thalaivaa periodically suggest these hindi movie makers are making fun of Tamils. We should oppose it ever broadcast on Doordharsan because it is run on our taxes. I do not oppose private theaters showing it. Free market.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:39 pm

Kayalvizhi wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Is it dhoti or vesti?
This can happen only in India.

neither. it is vEshti or vEtti.

vEtti comes from the word vettu (cut) because vEtti is a cut piece of cloth.

doesn't sound plausible to me. if that was true, it would be vetti (kuRil), not vEtti (nedil).

by Kayalvizhi Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:44 pm

Read any standard text on etymology. Such changes from nedil to kuril, etc. is common.

chudu. chuudu. chuuLai

sul--suL--suLLi

by bw Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:46 pm

how did vEtti become vEshti? or did vEshti become vEtti?

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:05 pm

bw wrote:how did vEtti become vEshti? or did vEshti become vEtti?

the anti-hindi movement spurred on by the dravidian parties in the 60s banished any and all vadamozhi (tamil for sanskrit) sounds from the language at least in the written form and preferably from the spoken form as well.

thus, the following transformations took place: sha -> ta, ja -> cha/sa etc. nashtam became nattam, vEshti became vEtti, jannal became sannal and so on.

by Hellsangel Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:06 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
bw wrote:how did vEtti become vEshti? or did vEshti become vEtti?

the anti-hindi movement spurred on by the dravidian parties in the 60s banished any and all vadamozhi (tamil for sanskrit) sounds from the language at least in the written form and preferably from the spoken form as well.

thus, the following transformations took place: sha -> ta, ja -> cha/sa etc. nashtam became nattam, vEshti became vEtti, jannal became sannal and so on.

And dosa became dosai....

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:13 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
bw wrote:how did vEtti become vEshti? or did vEshti become vEtti?

the anti-hindi movement spurred on by the dravidian parties in the 60s banished any and all vadamozhi (tamil for sanskrit) sounds from the language at least in the written form and preferably from the spoken form as well.

thus, the following transformations took place: sha -> ta, ja -> cha/sa etc. nashtam became nattam, vEshti became vEtti, jannal became sannal and so on.
And dosa became dosai....

nice try, but no. that has always been dOsai.

by bw Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:17 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
bw wrote:how did vEtti become vEshti? or did vEshti become vEtti?

the anti-hindi movement spurred on by the dravidian parties in the 60s banished any and all vadamozhi (tamil for sanskrit) sounds from the language at least in the written form and preferably from the spoken form as well.

thus, the following transformations took place: sha -> ta, ja -> cha/sa etc. nashtam became nattam, vEshti became vEtti, jannal became sannal and so on.

did kashtam become kattam? i have never heard 'kattam' used by anyone.

also, is the 'zh' sound also considered vadamozhi? (vadamoLi)?

by bw Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:17 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
bw wrote:how did vEtti become vEshti? or did vEshti become vEtti?

the anti-hindi movement spurred on by the dravidian parties in the 60s banished any and all vadamozhi (tamil for sanskrit) sounds from the language at least in the written form and preferably from the spoken form as well.

thus, the following transformations took place: sha -> ta, ja -> cha/sa etc. nashtam became nattam, vEshti became vEtti, jannal became sannal and so on.
And dosa became dosai....

doshai becomes dosai Razz

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:20 pm

bw wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
bw wrote:how did vEtti become vEshti? or did vEshti become vEtti?

the anti-hindi movement spurred on by the dravidian parties in the 60s banished any and all vadamozhi (tamil for sanskrit) sounds from the language at least in the written form and preferably from the spoken form as well.

thus, the following transformations took place: sha -> ta, ja -> cha/sa etc. nashtam became nattam, vEshti became vEtti, jannal became sannal and so on.

did kashtam become kattam? i have never heard 'kattam' used by anyone.

also, is the 'zh' sound also considered vadamozhi? (vadamoLi)?

yes kashtam became kattam.
zha a vadamozhi sound? blasphemy! it is a defining tamil sound.

my own position is that there is no need today for continuing this practice which was introduced during the passions of the 60s.

by Kayalvizhi Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:22 pm

Actually VEtti, thutti were transformed by vested interests or just self-haters to veshti and thushti.

One way to determine what was the original form is to analyse the root word. I showed you root word for vEtti is vettu thus showing the original form is vEtti.

by Kayalvizhi Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:24 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

yes kashtam became kattam.
zha a vadamozhi sound? blasphemy! it is a defining tamil sound.

kashtam is not a Tamil word. I don't think you will find it in the literature of the 3rd Tamil Academy.

Similarly you will see very few, if any, words with "sh" in that literature.

by bw Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:25 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
bw wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
bw wrote:how did vEtti become vEshti? or did vEshti become vEtti?

the anti-hindi movement spurred on by the dravidian parties in the 60s banished any and all vadamozhi (tamil for sanskrit) sounds from the language at least in the written form and preferably from the spoken form as well.

thus, the following transformations took place: sha -> ta, ja -> cha/sa etc. nashtam became nattam, vEshti became vEtti, jannal became sannal and so on.

did kashtam become kattam? i have never heard 'kattam' used by anyone.

also, is the 'zh' sound also considered vadamozhi? (vadamoLi)?

yes kashtam became kattam.
zha a vadamozhi sound? blasphemy! it is a defining tamil sound.

my own position is that there is no need today for continuing this practice which was introduced during the passions of the 60s.

why is it that a lot of people cannot pronounce it correctly? paLam, maLai etc? i have always wondered about it and thought it was some brahmin/sanskrit thing.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:25 pm

Kayalvizhi wrote:Actually VEtti, thutti were transformed by vested interests or just self-haters to veshti and thushti.

One way to determine what was the original form is to analyse the root word. I showed you root word for vEtti is vettu thus showing the original form is vEtti.

that is ridiculous speculation that no linguist worth his salt will ever buy. identifying root words takes a lot more work than empty speculation. try your luck elsewhere. i certainly have no vested interests.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:27 pm

bw wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
bw wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
bw wrote:how did vEtti become vEshti? or did vEshti become vEtti?

the anti-hindi movement spurred on by the dravidian parties in the 60s banished any and all vadamozhi (tamil for sanskrit) sounds from the language at least in the written form and preferably from the spoken form as well.

thus, the following transformations took place: sha -> ta, ja -> cha/sa etc. nashtam became nattam, vEshti became vEtti, jannal became sannal and so on.

did kashtam become kattam? i have never heard 'kattam' used by anyone.

also, is the 'zh' sound also considered vadamozhi? (vadamoLi)?

yes kashtam became kattam.
zha a vadamozhi sound? blasphemy! it is a defining tamil sound.

my own position is that there is no need today for continuing this practice which was introduced during the passions of the 60s.

why is it that a lot of people cannot pronounce it correctly? paLam, maLai etc? i have always wondered about it and thought it was some brahmin/sanskrit thing.

absolutely not. i think it just takes practice and training. and it is not just a brahmin thing. and it is certainly not a sanskrit thing! i have had many tamil teachers through my years of schooling. most weren't brahmins and they all pronounced it perfectly. what is true however, is that most brahmins can say it correctly.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:32 pm

here is nellai kaNNan, not a brahmin, and a contemporary tamil scholar talking about bharathi. you can judge his ability to pronounce the sound in question correctly:

by bw Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:34 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
bw wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
bw wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

the anti-hindi movement spurred on by the dravidian parties in the 60s banished any and all vadamozhi (tamil for sanskrit) sounds from the language at least in the written form and preferably from the spoken form as well.

thus, the following transformations took place: sha -> ta, ja -> cha/sa etc. nashtam became nattam, vEshti became vEtti, jannal became sannal and so on.

did kashtam become kattam? i have never heard 'kattam' used by anyone.

also, is the 'zh' sound also considered vadamozhi? (vadamoLi)?

yes kashtam became kattam.
zha a vadamozhi sound? blasphemy! it is a defining tamil sound.

my own position is that there is no need today for continuing this practice which was introduced during the passions of the 60s.

why is it that a lot of people cannot pronounce it correctly? paLam, maLai etc? i have always wondered about it and thought it was some brahmin/sanskrit thing.

absolutely not. i think it just takes practice and training. and it is not just a brahmin thing. and it is certainly not a sanskrit thing! i have had many tamil teachers through my years of schooling. most weren't brahmins and they all pronounced it perfectly. what is true however, is that most brahmins can say it correctly.

okay, okay, tamizh vaazhga!

i guess the 'zh' sound doesn't even exist in sanskrit or hindi. hindians read it as "sss". it is interesting that such a quintessentially tamil sound(?) cannot be pronounced correctly by a large number of tamilians.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:35 pm

or how about solomon pappiah?

this ridiculous assertion that is often made is usually made by brahmins (not a personal jibe. just an observation).

by Kayalvizhi Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:37 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Kayalvizhi wrote:Actually VEtti, thutti were transformed by vested interests or just self-haters to veshti and thushti.

One way to determine what was the original form is to analyse the root word. I showed you root word for vEtti is vettu thus showing the original form is vEtti.

that is ridiculous speculation that no linguist worth his salt will ever buy. identifying root words takes a lot more work than empty speculation. try your luck elsewhere. i certainly have no vested interests.

PaavaaNar is one of the greatest linguists (formerly Reader in linguistics at Anaamalai. Later Director of Tamil Lexicomn Project). AruL is another (currently works at Thanjavur Tamil Univ).

They both agree with my position.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:37 pm

bw wrote: it is interesting that such a quintessentially tamil sound(?).

yes tamil and malayalam.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:38 pm

Kayalvizhi wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Kayalvizhi wrote:Actually VEtti, thutti were transformed by vested interests or just self-haters to veshti and thushti.

One way to determine what was the original form is to analyse the root word. I showed you root word for vEtti is vettu thus showing the original form is vEtti.

that is ridiculous speculation that no linguist worth his salt will ever buy. identifying root words takes a lot more work than empty speculation. try your luck elsewhere. i certainly have no vested interests.

PaavaaNar is one of the greatest linguists (formerly Reader in linguistics at Anaamalai. Later Director of Tamil Lexicomn Project). AruL is another (currently works at Thanjavur Tamil Univ).

They both agree with my position.

i don't do debating by appeals to authority. if you want to do that, you are better off talking to rashmun. i need a lot more than that -- a properly argued thesis for starters.

by bw Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:44 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
this ridiculous assertion that is often made is usually made by brahmins (not a personal jibe. just an observation).

hey, it was no assertion but a question. something like cockney and the h dropping i guess.

by Kris Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:49 pm

bw wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
bw wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
bw wrote:

did kashtam become kattam? i have never heard 'kattam' used by anyone.

also, is the 'zh' sound also considered vadamozhi? (vadamoLi)?

yes kashtam became kattam.
zha a vadamozhi sound? blasphemy! it is a defining tamil sound.

my own position is that there is no need today for continuing this practice which was introduced during the passions of the 60s.

why is it that a lot of people cannot pronounce it correctly? paLam, maLai etc? i have always wondered about it and thought it was some brahmin/sanskrit thing.

absolutely not. i think it just takes practice and training. and it is not just a brahmin thing. and it is certainly not a sanskrit thing! i have had many tamil teachers through my years of schooling. most weren't brahmins and they all pronounced it perfectly. what is true however, is that most brahmins can say it correctly.

okay, okay, tamizh vaazhga!

i guess the 'zh' sound doesn't even exist in sanskrit or hindi. hindians read it as "sss". it is interesting that such a quintessentially tamil sound(?) cannot be pronounced correctly by a large number of tamilians.

>>>Filipinos can't pronounce F.

by Kayalvizhi Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:08 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Kayalvizhi wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Kayalvizhi wrote:Actually VEtti, thutti were transformed by vested interests or just self-haters to veshti and thushti.

One way to determine what was the original form is to analyse the root word. I showed you root word for vEtti is vettu thus showing the original form is vEtti.

that is ridiculous speculation that no linguist worth his salt will ever buy. identifying root words takes a lot more work than empty speculation. try your luck elsewhere. i certainly have no vested interests.

PaavaaNar is one of the greatest linguists (formerly Reader in linguistics at Anaamalai. Later Director of Tamil Lexicomn Project). AruL is another (currently works at Thanjavur Tamil Univ).

They both agree with my position.

i don't do debating by appeals to authority. if you want to do that, you are better off talking to rashmun. i need a lot more than that -- a properly argued thesis for starters.

I proved my position 4 ways.

1) showed you the root of the word
2) showed you it is not used during the time of 3rd Tamil academy
3) sh is not a Tamil letter
4) Opinion of recognized scholars

by bw Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:20 pm

Kris wrote:
>>>Filipinos can't pronounce F.

that's coz they are pilippinos!

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:53 pm

Kayalvizhi wrote:
I proved my position 4 ways.

1) showed you the root of the word
2) showed you it is not used during the time of 3rd Tamil academy
3) sh is not a Tamil letter
4) Opinion of recognized scholars

*much balderdash deleted*

you did nothing of the kind. here are a few pointers on etymological research if you are keen to know how to do this right.

a) find other cognates in your own language.
b) find cognates with similar meanings in other related languages.
c) see if the cognates transform using established and well known rules between languages.

you did none of this. you simply pulled something out of thin air and made tall claims. like i said, rashmun is more your speed.

in this particular case, my own guess (and nothing more) is that the word came from sanskrit vastra, meaning cloth.

edited to add: and it turns out i don't even have to go that far. the word is present as is in sanskrit.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:08 pm

the interesting question is whether the words vest and vestments in english (derived from latin) are from the same root word as either vastra or vEshti.

and merriam webster helpfully adds:

Middle English vestement, from Anglo-French, from Latin vestimentum, from vestire to clothe

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:11 pm

As far as I know, In Andhra, the usual way to wear is as a "dhovati", not lungi. I have not seen my father and uncles wearing lungis. Whenever I go to temples (in SI) to do pooja, even now, I wear it like a dhovati.

I have seen farmers wearing dhovatis in my village.

Do Iyers in TN wear lungis in pulic?

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:14 pm

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:

Do Iyers in TN wear lungis in pulic?

the ones who are super traditional and religious don't. but the corrupted ones who drink beer, whiskey, and partake of meat occasionally, and lust after the pretty christian girl next door do.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:28 pm

but seriously what is the excitement all about? my grandfathers never wore a lungi. at home, they always wore spotless white vEshtis and either went bare-chested or wore a white half-sleeves shirt. my father and uncles however wore lungis as sleepwear, and vEshtis for temple visits and during religious functions, and do so to this day. when i lived in india, i mostly did as my father and uncles did.

does the lungi-wearing of some tambrahms cause much excitement in the likes of sandilya because it is viewed primarily as islamic garb, and that those wearing it are viewed as traitors to the cause? seriously i really want to know.

by Maria S Tue Jul 15, 2014 7:54 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

the ones who are super traditional and religious don't. but the corrupted ones who drink beer, whiskey, and partake of meat occasionally, and lust after the pretty christian girl next door do.

That was you, in the lungi? Smile

Thought, it must have been an open-minded brahmin man with good taste!

And a "Jimmy Carter" confessional moment..

Just kidding..nice to see you spell "christian" when followed by girl, correctly with some decency! Have seen H-M synthesis, NI-SI sythesis all kinds of other synthesis..but don't remember seeing tamil brahmin-non brahmin synthesis in this forum..it's mostly focusing on division and differences.

I think it's caste and class (not so much religion)..which leads to perceptions about the lungi..which is looked down upon as something inferior..cheap..low class..poor etc. I always thought lungis..are kind of sexy-depending on who wears them, of course! And in general, men who look very cool in lungis..also look handsome in vettis..majestic in silk vettis and and debonair in suits:) Like the men in my family do!

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