Shahid

by Idéfix Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:19 pm

Watched this Hindi movie last weekend. It is based on the true story of Shahid Azmi, a young man from Mumbai who went from prisoner in Tihar to accomplished defense lawyer. There is a tendency for people, including on this forum, to accept any and all accusations made by the authorities regarding suspects charged under anti-terrorism laws. Shahid shows the dark side of how police often catch the wrong guys and then the judicial system keeps such innocent people imprisoned for years on end.

The move is available on Netflix.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahid_(film)

by ashdoc Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:33 pm

Ashdoc's movie review---

I had never heard of Shahid Azmi till this movie came along....

Even the media which is neck deep into secularism had not dared to create a hero out if him , which is why I had never heard of him....

Yet the director keeps the tall ambition of painting Shahid as a hero---as a man who stood out for the rights of those who were wrongfully accused of terrorism without caring for his own life....

Problem is , by the movie's own admission Shahid's own past was not anything to be proud about....

He is shown to have been affected by the Bombay riots of 1993 and gone to POK ( Pakistan occupied Kashmir ) to train for jihad .

Now this itself raises controversy in my mind as to how come such a person can be treated as a hero .
question is , why did he go to POK to train for jihad....??

Did he lose any family member in the riots ?? Any near and dear ones ??
At least the movie does not show any such thing....
I would like to ask the director---did those muslims who lost their family members in riots all turn to terrorism ??
The answer is , most of them didn't....
Then why did Shahid , who didn't lose any family member in riots ??

Then how can the director justify Shahid's stint in a jihadi camp in POK ??

Similarly , may hindus are illtreated and subjected physical humiliation in Pak....
How many of them have turned to terrorism against Pakistan ?? Answer is---practically nobody....

Then how can Shahid's stint as a trainee jihadi in POK be treated as ' natural reaction ' to Bombay riots ??

The director wants us to pull off the amazing feat of believing that a would be jihadi is some kind of hero here in India....

Of course , Shahid remains only a would be jihadi....
He becomes disillusioned with the brutality of the training in POK and returns home to India....

Here the police is waiting for him and not only arrests him but also gives him the treatment reserved for jihadis . He is stripped naked and beaten .

Once again , the director makes the perfidy of wanting us to believe that this is a grave injustice , that he is being singled out because he is a muslim....

Tell me , what else do you expect if you go to Pakistani controlled jihadi training camps in POK ?? To be welcomed back in India with garlands of flowers ??

Then he is misled into signing a confession that he was involved in a terror plot , for which he has to spend years in Tihar jail....

Here he is again tried to be co opted for jihad by terrorists serving time in jail , but is saved by a former jihadi who himself was disillusioned by the jihad and who prevents Shahid from turning again to terrorism....

Instead he is encouraged to take up studies and becomes a lawyer....

The very fact that such a person with such a tainted past is eventually released from jail is testament to the fact that India has an impartial justice system , otherwise how could a former wannabe jihadi be set free by the courts ?? Yet the director acknowledges this fact only grudgingly , making one of the characters say that the justice system does work in India though it works only late....

Shahid Azmi takes up the opportunity to practice as a lawyer , where he is honest enough to refuse to take up cases of people who are real criminals---which costs him his job with a prominent lawyer....

His personal life is a major component of the movie , with his courtship with his wife Mariam leading to marriage . But the marriage turns upside down because he begins to get death threats due to the dangerous work he has undertaken lately....

So what is that dangerous work ?? It's that of taking up cases of people accused of terrorism against India....

Shahid proves to be a brilliant lawyer who is hard to beat in a courtroom debate , and the courtroom debates are filmed brilliantly....
The actor playing Shahid ( Rajkumar Yadav ) has acted all too well putting his heart and soul into getting into the skin of the character he is playing .

To be honest , the real life Shahid looks better than the actor playing him , but Raj kumar has compensated for his lack of looks by his superb acting , which may fetch him awards....

It is his high acquittal rate of those accused of terrorism which turns him into a hero , at least for some....

But he angers powerful people by taking up cases of those accused of being involved in the 2008 Mumbai terror attacks and as he begins to get death threats his wife leaves him....
His face is blackened by chauvinists...

Shahid is leading a very dangerous and charmed life....

So what will happen to him...??

To me the bigger question was , is he the hero that the director of the film has tried to make him out to be ?? Considering his past and considering the fact that he fought cases for the people of his own community , that is somewhat of a tall order....

Of course , at least some for whom he fought were declared innocent by the courts . So maybe he really fought for those he believed to be innocent....
And he didnt care about his life or his marriage in his pursuit of saving those people....
You certainly have to admit he had courage of conviction....

But a hero ?? That is for you to decide...to each his own.....

And like him or dislike him , you cannot ignore Shahid Azmi---not after this film , for it's that good....

Verdict---Good .

by Idéfix Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:49 pm

Azmi went to a training camp in POK, but there was no accusation of him committing any act of terror, or any violent crime at all. If I remember right, the court said in the final judgment in his case that the principles of natural justice were violated when he was imprisoned, and acquitted him of all charges.

Shahid Azmi secured 17 acquittals in his seven-year legal career. Those are 17 people who would have spent years or decades in prison for crimes they did not commit. One of the objectives of a justice system is to not punish the innocent. When this principle is routinely violated, heroes like Shahid Azmi are needed to fight back. In my book, he was certainly a hero; he fought for justice within the constitutional system, and he often won.

by Guest Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:57 pm

Idéfix wrote:Azmi went to a training camp in POK, but there was no accusation of him committing any act of terror, or any violent crime at all. e within the constitutional system, and he often won.

you are an idiot and hypocrite of the first order.

by truthbetold Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:00 pm

Idéfix wrote:Watched this Hindi movie last weekend. It is based on the true story of Shahid Azmi, a young man from Mumbai who went from prisoner in Tihar to accomplished defense lawyer. There is a tendency for people, including on this forum, to accept any and all accusations made by the authorities regarding suspects charged under anti-terrorism laws. Shahid shows the dark side of how police often catch the wrong guys and then the judicial system keeps such innocent people imprisoned for years on end.

The move is available on Netflix.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahid_(film)

Why is this a new revelation? Indian govt has been doing that for a long time? Have you heard of Justice Tarkunde and jsutice Bhargava?

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ghc1mFx3dbQC&pg=PA10&dq=justice+tarkunde+commission+AP&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XYRrVLidHo_giQKi5YCwDw&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=justice%20tarkunde%20commission%20AP&f=false

Page 10 of "Police killings and rural violence in Andhra Pradesh"

Violation of democratic rights in India, vol 1,
5. Encounter Killings , P248
Amnesty Report

Encounters and torture are not started started recently for jihadi terrorists. They were rampant in 1960s and 1970s and continued into 2010. Some experts would say compared to state violence against political extremists , Jihadi terrorists were treated with kid gloves because of vote bank politics.

by Idéfix Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:02 pm

truthbetold wrote:
Idéfix wrote:Watched this Hindi movie last weekend. It is based on the true story of Shahid Azmi, a young man from Mumbai who went from prisoner in Tihar to accomplished defense lawyer. There is a tendency for people, including on this forum, to accept any and all accusations made by the authorities regarding suspects charged under anti-terrorism laws. Shahid shows the dark side of how police often catch the wrong guys and then the judicial system keeps such innocent people imprisoned for years on end.

The move is available on Netflix.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahid_(film)
Why is this a new revelation? Indian govt has been doing that for a long time? Have you heard of Justice Tarkunde and jsutice Bhargava?

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ghc1mFx3dbQC&pg=PA10&dq=justice+tarkunde+commission+AP&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XYRrVLidHo_giQKi5YCwDw&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=justice%20tarkunde%20commission%20AP&f=false

Page 10 of "Police killings and rural violence in Andhra Pradesh"

Violation of democratic rights in India, vol 1,
5. Encounter Killings , P248
Amnesty Report

Encounters and torture are not started started recently for jihadi terrorists. They were rampant in 1960s and 1970s and continued into 2010. Some experts would say compared to state violence against political extremists , Jihadi terrorists were treated with kid gloves because of vote bank politics.

It is not a new revelation, it is a well-made movie focusing on the sort of difficult subject that Bollywood usually stays away from.

by smArtha Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:10 pm

Idéfix wrote:Azmi went to a training camp in POK, but there was no accusation of him committing any act of terror, or any violent crime at all. If I remember right, the court said in the final judgment in his case that the principles of natural justice were violated when he was imprisoned, and acquitted him of all charges.

Was he arrested and imprisoned as a suspect then? Also, why did he train in PoK terror camps, if his intent was not to commit any act of violence or terrorism overtly or covertly? Or was he brainwashed very early in life to take part in such training but he matured to a law abiding gentleman as he came out of that training camp? Also when it comes to terror crimes related to National Security - should we be preventive or wait for a major event to happen and then only round up people? How do the Principles of Natural Justice reconcile with this?

by Guest Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:13 pm

truthbetold wrote:
Idéfix wrote:Watched this Hindi movie last weekend. It is based on the true story of Shahid Azmi, a young man from Mumbai who went from prisoner in Tihar to accomplished defense lawyer. There is a tendency for people, including on this forum, to accept any and all accusations made by the authorities regarding suspects charged under anti-terrorism laws. Shahid shows the dark side of how police often catch the wrong guys and then the judicial system keeps such innocent people imprisoned for years on end.

The move is available on Netflix.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahid_(film)
Why is this a new revelation? Indian govt has been doing that for a long time? Have you heard of Justice Tarkunde and jsutice Bhargava?

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ghc1mFx3dbQC&pg=PA10&dq=justice+tarkunde+commission+AP&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XYRrVLidHo_giQKi5YCwDw&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=justice%20tarkunde%20commission%20AP&f=false

Page 10 of "Police killings and rural violence in Andhra Pradesh"

Violation of democratic rights in India, vol 1,
5. Encounter Killings , P248
Amnesty Report

Encounters and torture are not started started recently for jihadi terrorists. They were rampant in 1960s and 1970s and continued into 2010. Some experts would say compared to state violence against political extremists , Jihadi terrorists were treated with kid gloves because of vote bank politics.

do you feel article 370 should be repealed? do you feel j&k (and nagaland and arunachal) residents should start paying income tax to enrich the exchequer for the work the union is doing there with our money?

by truthbetold Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:15 pm

Idefix

Bollywood stayed away from Indian reality since Indian independence.

Some of the jihadi supporter complaints remind me of MMS's comment about lack of sleep because that Glasgow doctor was detained in Australia while jihadi's murder innocent Indian citizens. Where are shahid azmi and shabana azmi when inncoent moms and dads and children were murdered?

by Guest Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:17 pm

smArtha wrote:
Idéfix wrote:Azmi went to a training camp in POK, but there was no accusation of him committing any act of terror, or any violent crime at all. If I remember right, the court said in the final judgment in his case that the principles of natural justice were violated when he was imprisoned, and acquitted him of all charges.

Was he arrested and imprisoned as a suspect then? Also, why did he train in PoK terror camps, if his intent was not to commit any act of violence or terrorism overtly or covertly? Or was he brainwashed very early in life to take part in such training but he matured to a law abiding gentleman as he came out of that training camp? Also when it comes to terror crimes related to National Security - should we be preventive or wait for a major event to happen and then only round up people? How do the Principles of Natural Justice reconcile with this?

good points. he attended the POK training camp causally but NOT to decide to add his name in the banned words list. his intention was never to terrorize the forum or summarily delete posts. he should stand exonerated as per law!

by Idéfix Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:47 pm

smArtha wrote:
Idéfix wrote:Azmi went to a training camp in POK, but there was no accusation of him committing any act of terror, or any violent crime at all. If I remember right, the court said in the final judgment in his case that the principles of natural justice were violated when he was imprisoned, and acquitted him of all charges.

Was he arrested and imprisoned as a suspect then?

The infamous TADA allowed police to keep people locked up without trial. People could be locked up for a year without even filing any charges. Forced confessions ruled the roost, and the burden of proof was on the accused, not on the state: in other words, the presumption was that any accused is guilty unless he can prove himself innocent. It was under the provisions of this horrendous law that Azmi was held. This law was so bad for individual rights that the government eventually allowed it to lapse in 1995.

Over 76,000 people were arrested under this law. Only 35% of cases were brought to trial, of which 95% resulted in acquittals. Remember that the burden of proof was on the accused to prove innocence, not on the state to prove guilt. So of 75,000 people picked up, less than 1,500 (i.e. less than 2%) were convicted of crimes under this law. About 74,000 innocent people were punished under this law. Azmi was one of them.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorist_and_Disruptive_Activities_(Prevention)_Act#Impact

smArtha wrote:Also, why did he train in PoK terror camps, if his intent was not to commit any act of violence or terrorism overtly or covertly? Or was he brainwashed very early in life to take part in such training but he matured to a law abiding gentleman as he came out of that training camp?

He was brainwashed, yes. He left because he found the terror camps revolting.

smArtha wrote:Also when it comes to terror crimes related to National Security - should we be preventive or wait for a major event to happen and then only round up people? How do the Principles of Natural Justice reconcile with this?

Prevention of terrorism does not mean arresting people and keeping them locked up without evidence.

by nevada Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:28 pm

I watched Shahid on an Emirates flight recently. Good movie with great action by the main character.

Muslim youth getting thrown in jail on terror charges is a dark and disturbing reality in India. Some 15-20 years ago a Muslim youth of my neighborhood was arrested under POTA. He is from a prosperous, well to do family engaged in business. He had a fight with someone who had good rapport with the local cops. That guy bribed the cops and got him arrested.

Unfortunately for the Muslim youth, he had visited Pakistan once. Now, this is nothing out of the ordinary as many Muslims of Hyderabad have a relative or two in Pakistan. But the cops made a mountain out of a mole hill and beat him up every day for months to try and make him confess. He was hung upside down and tortured, but somehow he resisted confessing to the crime. His family hired a good attorney, paid a whole lot of bribes and finally got him out.

by smArtha Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:44 pm

Idéfix wrote:

Now that the draconian law is repealed (or allowed to lapse) are all those arrested and kept under its provisions freed? How does legal system behave in that case in general?

Also when it comes to terror crimes related to National Security - should we be preventive or wait for a major event to happen and then only round up people? How do the Principles of Natural Justice reconcile with this?
Prevention of terrorism does not mean arresting people and keeping them locked up without evidence.

There is necessary (yet not sufficient) evidence for suspecting him. What is the percentage of people who train in terror camps and not carry out activities related to terror? If it is anywhere near 75% then the Security establishment is justified in rounding up suspects for investigations. It is a different story that we don't have tools/technologies/processes to confine and investigate someone without pushing them in to Jail/Custody. How does the US Homeland, Legal and Law Enforcement systems act in such cases?

by Idéfix Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:14 pm

smArtha wrote:What is the percentage of people who train in terror camps and not carry out activities related to terror? If it is anywhere near 75% then the Security establishment is justified in rounding up suspects for investigations.

I don't understand your argument.

smArtha wrote:How does the US Homeland, Legal and Law Enforcement systems act in such cases?

The US regularly violates human rights in its anti-terror campaigns. All those CIA dark sites, Gitmo, etc. are examples of the US government breaking the law willy nilly in the name of fighting terrorism. But it tends to do a better of respecting the rights of its own citizens though. India, OTOH, systematically tramples on the rights of innocent Indian citizens if they are Muslims/Naxalite sympathizers/tribals/Mizo/Naga/Manipuri/etc.

by truthbetold Tue Nov 18, 2014 6:21 pm

Idéfix wrote:
smArtha wrote:What is the percentage of people who train in terror camps and not carry out activities related to terror? If it is anywhere near 75% then the Security establishment is justified in rounding up suspects for investigations.
I don't understand your argument.

smArtha wrote:How does the US Homeland, Legal and Law Enforcement systems act in such cases?
The US regularly violates human rights in its anti-terror campaigns. All those CIA dark sites, Gitmo, etc. are examples of the US government breaking the law willy nilly in the name of fighting terrorism. But it tends to do a better of respecting the rights of its own citizens though. India, OTOH, systematically tramples on the rights of innocent Indian citizens if they are Muslims/Naxalite sympathizers/tribals/Mizo/Naga/Manipuri/etc.

innocent Indian citizens if they are Muslims/Naxalite sympathizers/tribals/Mizo/Naga/Manipuri/etc.

Idefix,

How did you arrive at this list?

Indian police are more egalitarian in their execution than you give them credit for. India police have harassed hindus because they are members of RSS, they have harassed opposition party members (a widely known example is that of Paritala Ravi's murder during YSR govt), harassing poor people, people living in slum areas, and many others. Indian police will harass , arrest, and murder any Indian who is in the bad graces of current rulers.

What irritates me is that secular/so called progressive press mavens know the civil right violations for decades and have been accord titles to the congress, Laloo, YSR and CBN as democrats and seculars. Why are they going gung ho about atrocities on Jihadi elements? Why are they not raising civil rights of Indian people? Indian poor? Indian political fringe elements?

Until civil rights movement addresses the concerns of all Indian people, I will regard jehadi element focused propaganda as motivated and counter productive.

by smArtha Tue Nov 18, 2014 6:28 pm

What is the percentage of people who train in terror camps and ~~not~~ carry out activities related to terror? If it is anywhere near 75% then the Security establishment is justified in rounding up suspects trained in such camps for investigations.

Idéfix wrote:

The US regularly violates human rights in its anti-terror campaigns. All those CIA dark sites, Gitmo, etc. are examples of the US government breaking the law willy nilly in the name of fighting terrorism. But it tends to do a better of respecting the rights of its own citizens though. India, OTOH, systematically tramples on the rights of innocent Indian citizens if they are Muslims/Naxalite sympathizers/tribals/Mizo/Naga/Manipuri/etc.

US has no significant population of resident State enemies. Also it is much more of a homogenized culture that is bound more by the shared 'economic' model. This is not true with many countries and more so one as diverse and as ancient as India. So the Indian State has to deal with many complex forms of associations and support systems to various anti-National ideologies thus increasing by manifold the chances of State excesses.

by Kris Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:28 pm

Idéfix wrote:
smArtha wrote:What is the percentage of people who train in terror camps and not carry out activities related to terror? If it is anywhere near 75% then the Security establishment is justified in rounding up suspects for investigations.
I don't understand your argument.

smArtha wrote:How does the US Homeland, Legal and Law Enforcement systems act in such cases?
The US regularly violates human rights in its anti-terror campaigns. All those CIA dark sites, Gitmo, etc. are examples of the US government breaking the law willy nilly in the name of fighting terrorism. But it tends to do a better of respecting the rights of its own citizens though. India, OTOH, systematically tramples on the rights of innocent Indian citizens if they are Muslims/Naxalite sympathizers/tribals/Mizo/Naga/Manipuri/etc.

>>>Are you talking of violations of the law on U.S. soil or abroad, like a war theater? If it is on US soil, while the system may not be perfect, the checks and balances are pretty robust even for known terrorists. If it is abroad where a war is being prosecuted, it would be self-defeating and pretty much irrational to extend protection to enemies or suspected enemies. For instance, a Miranda requirement would make no sense even to military police in a place like Afghanistan. The US does have laws and does prosecute army personnel who kill non combatant civilians even on foreign soil. May not be perfect but the system does have structures in place to deal with this.

by Kris Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:34 pm

truthbetold wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
smArtha wrote:What is the percentage of people who train in terror camps and not carry out activities related to terror? If it is anywhere near 75% then the Security establishment is justified in rounding up suspects for investigations.
I don't understand your argument.

smArtha wrote:How does the US Homeland, Legal and Law Enforcement systems act in such cases?
The US regularly violates human rights in its anti-terror campaigns. All those CIA dark sites, Gitmo, etc. are examples of the US government breaking the law willy nilly in the name of fighting terrorism. But it tends to do a better of respecting the rights of its own citizens though. India, OTOH, systematically tramples on the rights of innocent Indian citizens if they are Muslims/Naxalite sympathizers/tribals/Mizo/Naga/Manipuri/etc.
innocent Indian citizens if they are Muslims/Naxalite sympathizers/tribals/Mizo/Naga/Manipuri/etc.

Idefix,

How did you arrive at this list?

Indian police are more egalitarian in their execution than you give them credit for. India police have harassed hindus because they are members of RSS, they have harassed opposition party members (a widely known example is that of Paritala Ravi's murder during YSR govt), harassing poor people, people living in slum areas, and many others. Indian police will harass , arrest, and murder any Indian who is in the bad graces of current rulers.

What irritates me is that secular/so called progressive press mavens know the civil right violations for decades and have been accord titles to the congress, Laloo, YSR and CBN as democrats and seculars. Why are they going gung ho about atrocities on Jihadi elements? Why are they not raising civil rights of Indian people? Indian poor? Indian political fringe elements?

Until civil rights movement addresses the concerns of all Indian people, I will regard jehadi element focused propaganda as motivated and counter productive.

>>>> Not happening in the land of vote bank politics.

by Guest Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:09 am

Idéfix wrote:Azmi went to a training camp in POK, but there was no accusation of him committing any act of terror, or any violent crime at all. If I remember right, the court said in the final judgment in his case that the principles of natural justice were violated when he was imprisoned, and acquitted him of all charges.

let his arrest, against the principles of natural justice as opined by a court, act as a deterrent to all those contemplating joining POK training camps. india has a right to protect itself from acts of terrorism. if some people are denied justice, like azmi, just as like some people are upset by your banned-words list, so be it! also, shut ALL madrasas, by law, right now!

by Idéfix Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:05 am

truthbetold wrote: innocent Indian citizens if they are Muslims/Naxalite sympathizers/tribals/Mizo/Naga/Manipuri/etc.

Idefix,

How did you arrive at this list?

Off the top of my head, I listed groups who have been most strongly targeted by the Indian state.

truthbetold wrote: Indian police are more egalitarian in their execution than you give them credit for. India police have harassed hindus because they are members of RSS, they have harassed opposition party members (a widely known example is that of Paritala Ravi's murder during YSR govt), harassing poor people, people living in slum areas, and many others.

Police harassment of RSS members is not in the same league as the widespread targeting of Muslim young men or Naga young men under POTA, TADA, and AFSPA. RSS was targeted for short periods of time (right after the assassination of Gandhi, during the Emergency, and right after the demolition of Babri Masjid). Trying to equate the treatment of RSS with the treatment meted out to tribals is false equivalence. It is the sort of false equivalence that occurs when any talk of Islamic terrorism is countered with one-off examples of Hindu or Christian terrorism.

by Guest Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:29 am

Idéfix wrote:Over 76,000 people were arrested under this law. Only 35% of cases were brought to trial, of which 95% resulted in acquittals. Remember that the burden of proof was on the accused to prove innocence, not on the state to prove guilt. So of 75,000 people picked up, less than 1,500 (i.e. less than 2%) were convicted of crimes under this law. About 74,000 innocent people were punished under this law. Azmi was one of them.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorist_and_Disruptive_Activities_(Prevention)_Act#Impact

yes. but over 1 million lives were saved by detaining these individuals, who had, like azmi, engaged in activities akin to waging war on the state (like attending POK camps). they were acquitted because -- let me give you an example here. say i own an ak47 with no intent to use it. suddenly i get "revolted" by the idea of owning it. i decide to surrender it to the cops. do you think it is just that the cops arrest me instead? i know i will get an acquittal in supreme court (if it believes in natural justice) and will then become a lawyer and spend the rest of my life trying to acquit people facing trail for similar reasons.

by Guest Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:43 am

@ ideifix -- do you accept collateral damage (jargon/excuse used by "democratic" states, not isis, and justified by it's citizens)?

by truthbetold Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:54 am

Idéfix wrote:
truthbetold wrote: innocent Indian citizens if they are Muslims/Naxalite sympathizers/tribals/Mizo/Naga/Manipuri/etc.

Idefix,

How did you arrive at this list?
Off the top of my head, I listed groups who have been most strongly targeted by the Indian state.

truthbetold wrote: Indian police are more egalitarian in their execution than you give them credit for. India police have harassed hindus because they are members of RSS, they have harassed opposition party members (a widely known example is that of Paritala Ravi's murder during YSR govt), harassing poor people, people living in slum areas, and many others.
Police harassment of RSS members is not in the same league as the widespread targeting of Muslim young men or Naga young men under POTA, TADA, and AFSPA. RSS was targeted for short periods of time (right after the assassination of Gandhi, during the Emergency, and right after the demolition of Babri Masjid). Trying to equate the treatment of RSS with the treatment meted out to tribals is false equivalence. It is the sort of false equivalence that occurs when any talk of Islamic terrorism is countered with one-off examples of Hindu or Christian terrorism.

Using your logic of RSS targeting, muslims were targeted only after jihadi terrorism. That too for short periods of time and in specific locations. If RSS targeting does not make your heart quiver, then you should be able to wait till jihadi terrorism is over to see if Indian police has a pathological dislike of all muslims. Jehadi persecution is proportional to jihadi terrorism similar to past RSS persecution. That does not make it correct but just pointing facts. The only group that is continuously disliked and attacked and killed across multiple states in India are left political extremists. All most all of them are hindu by birth. Indians and its politically enlightened intelligentsia have turned a blind eye to that massacre for decades.

Indian police are not model police by any standard but their targeting jehadi's is not borne by religious fervor (as seen in ISIS targeting YAZDI's and christians and shIites). It is more from their colonial and feudal method of policing. They are targeting a group because logically the threat is coming from that group. You may call it stereo typing and indiscriminate and anti constitution and anti democratic and anti 21st century. I give you all of that. But it is not built into Indian police work as bias against blacks in some USA law enforcement locations. May be it will reach there in the next 10 years for reasons all of us know but it is not there today.

by Idéfix Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:56 am

Kris wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
smArtha wrote:What is the percentage of people who train in terror camps and not carry out activities related to terror? If it is anywhere near 75% then the Security establishment is justified in rounding up suspects for investigations.
I don't understand your argument.

smArtha wrote:How does the US Homeland, Legal and Law Enforcement systems act in such cases?
The US regularly violates human rights in its anti-terror campaigns. All those CIA dark sites, Gitmo, etc. are examples of the US government breaking the law willy nilly in the name of fighting terrorism. But it tends to do a better of respecting the rights of its own citizens though. India, OTOH, systematically tramples on the rights of innocent Indian citizens if they are Muslims/Naxalite sympathizers/tribals/Mizo/Naga/Manipuri/etc.
>>>Are you talking of violations of the law on U.S. soil or abroad, like a war theater? If it is on US soil, while the system may not be perfect, the checks and balances are pretty robust even for known terrorists. If it is abroad where a war is being prosecuted, it would be self-defeating and pretty much irrational to extend protection to enemies or suspected enemies. For instance, a Miranda requirement would make no sense even to military police in a place like Afghanistan. The US does have laws and does prosecute army personnel who kill non combatant civilians even on foreign soil. May not be perfect but the system does have structures in place to deal with this.

Generally speaking, the US does have greater checks and balances in this regard. There are laws that govern wars on foreign soil, and the US has chosen to creatively reinterpret its obligations under the Geneva Conventions, by inventing classifications like "enemy combatant" in order to deprive them of their legal rights.

by Guest Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:09 pm

truthbetold wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
truthbetold wrote: innocent Indian citizens if they are Muslims/Naxalite sympathizers/tribals/Mizo/Naga/Manipuri/etc.

Idefix,

How did you arrive at this list?
Off the top of my head, I listed groups who have been most strongly targeted by the Indian state.

truthbetold wrote: Indian police are more egalitarian in their execution than you give them credit for. India police have harassed hindus because they are members of RSS, they have harassed opposition party members (a widely known example is that of Paritala Ravi's murder during YSR govt), harassing poor people, people living in slum areas, and many others.
Police harassment of RSS members is not in the same league as the widespread targeting of Muslim young men or Naga young men under POTA, TADA, and AFSPA. RSS was targeted for short periods of time (right after the assassination of Gandhi, during the Emergency, and right after the demolition of Babri Masjid). Trying to equate the treatment of RSS with the treatment meted out to tribals is false equivalence. It is the sort of false equivalence that occurs when any talk of Islamic terrorism is countered with one-off examples of Hindu or Christian terrorism.
The only group that is continuously disliked and attacked and killed across multiple states in India are left political extremists. All most all of them are hindu by birth.

the naxals, nagas and mizos are hindus by birth? which incidents of hindus being targeted are you referring to?

by truthbetold Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:18 pm

tingu wrote:
truthbetold wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
truthbetold wrote: innocent Indian citizens if they are Muslims/Naxalite sympathizers/tribals/Mizo/Naga/Manipuri/etc.

Idefix,

How did you arrive at this list?
Off the top of my head, I listed groups who have been most strongly targeted by the Indian state.

truthbetold wrote: Indian police are more egalitarian in their execution than you give them credit for. India police have harassed hindus because they are members of RSS, they have harassed opposition party members (a widely known example is that of Paritala Ravi's murder during YSR govt), harassing poor people, people living in slum areas, and many others.
Police harassment of RSS members is not in the same league as the widespread targeting of Muslim young men or Naga young men under POTA, TADA, and AFSPA. RSS was targeted for short periods of time (right after the assassination of Gandhi, during the Emergency, and right after the demolition of Babri Masjid). Trying to equate the treatment of RSS with the treatment meted out to tribals is false equivalence. It is the sort of false equivalence that occurs when any talk of Islamic terrorism is countered with one-off examples of Hindu or Christian terrorism.
The only group that is continuously disliked and attacked and killed across multiple states in India are left political extremists. All most all of them are hindu by birth.
the naxals, nagas and mizos are hindus by birth? which incidents of hindus being targeted are you referring to?

nagas and mizos are considered nationalities fighting Indian state. Do you still want to ask if naxals are hindus by birth? What do you mean by "which incidents of hindus being targeted are you referring to?"

by Guest Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:43 pm

truthbetold wrote:
tingu wrote:
truthbetold wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
truthbetold wrote: innocent Indian citizens if they are Muslims/Naxalite sympathizers/tribals/Mizo/Naga/Manipuri/etc.

Idefix,

How did you arrive at this list?
Off the top of my head, I listed groups who have been most strongly targeted by the Indian state.

truthbetold wrote: Indian police are more egalitarian in their execution than you give them credit for. India police have harassed hindus because they are members of RSS, they have harassed opposition party members (a widely known example is that of Paritala Ravi's murder during YSR govt), harassing poor people, people living in slum areas, and many others.
Police harassment of RSS members is not in the same league as the widespread targeting of Muslim young men or Naga young men under POTA, TADA, and AFSPA. RSS was targeted for short periods of time (right after the assassination of Gandhi, during the Emergency, and right after the demolition of Babri Masjid). Trying to equate the treatment of RSS with the treatment meted out to tribals is false equivalence. It is the sort of false equivalence that occurs when any talk of Islamic terrorism is countered with one-off examples of Hindu or Christian terrorism.
The only group that is continuously disliked and attacked and killed across multiple states in India are left political extremists. All most all of them are hindu by birth.
the naxals, nagas and mizos are hindus by birth? which incidents of hindus being targeted are you referring to?
nagas and mizos are considered nationalities fighting Indian state. Do you still want to ask if naxals are hindus by birth? What do you mean by "which incidents of hindus being targeted are you referring to?"

how can you say naxals are hindus by birth? i want to know.

i also want to know when hindus were targeted arbitrarily.

by truthbetold Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:04 pm

Tingu

Are you familiar with populations in India? Are you aware of who naxals are and where are they currently operating in India? I can provide information once I understand where to start.

You can get a start by looking at the references listed above in this thread.

"i also want to know when hindus were targeted arbitrarily."

Help me understand what you mean by "arbitrarily".

An example of targeting Hindu activists is Targeting RSS activists during emergency.

by Guest Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:11 pm

truthbetold wrote:Tingu

Are you familiar with populations in India? Are you aware of who naxals are and where are they currently operating in India? I can provide information once I understand where to start.

You can get a start by looking at the references listed above in this thread.

"i also want to know when hindus were targeted arbitrarily."

Help me understand what you mean by "arbitrarily".

An example of targeting Hindu activists is Targeting RSS activists during emergency.

please provide me a link of the page that says naxals are predominantly hindus. i would be much obliged.

re: arbitrarily attacking hindus post-rss-incident : please provide evidence of further examples.

by truthbetold Wed Nov 19, 2014 2:10 pm

tingu wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Tingu

Are you familiar with populations in India? Are you aware of who naxals are and where are they currently operating in India? I can provide information once I understand where to start.

You can get a start by looking at the references listed above in this thread.

"i also want to know when hindus were targeted arbitrarily."

Help me understand what you mean by "arbitrarily".

An example of targeting Hindu activists is Targeting RSS activists during emergency.

please provide me a link of the page that says naxals are predominantly hindus. i would be much obliged.

re: arbitrarily attacking hindus post-rss-incident : please provide evidence of further examples.

Tingu,

"please provide me a link of the page that says naxals are predominantly hindus. i would be much obliged."

Becuse india is a country of majority hindu people, most naxals are hindus by birth.

"re: arbitrarily attacking hindus post-rss-incident : please provide evidence of further examples."

what is meant by post -rss - incident? what is meant by "arbitrarily"?

What do you know about "naxals"?

by Idéfix Wed Nov 19, 2014 2:15 pm

truthbetold wrote:The only group that is continuously disliked and attacked and killed across multiple states in India are left political extremists. All most all of them are hindu by birth. Indians and its politically enlightened intelligentsia have turned a blind eye to that massacre for decades.

I disagree. If you take the subject of this thread -- depiction in movies of human rights abuses -- there have been numerous movies that have documented human rights abuses from anti-leftist campaigns: from Maa Bhumi and dozens of movies in that genre to Hazaron Khwahishein Aisi. Depictions of human rights abuses from anti-Islamist campaigns are rarer. Depictions of human rights abuses from anti-secessionist campaigns in the northeast are even rarer.

truthbetold wrote:Indian police are not model police by any standard but their targeting jehadi's is not borne by religious fervor (as seen in ISIS targeting YAZDI's and christians and shIites).

I agree with you on this. I never suggested that the police is motivated by religious fervor.

truthbetold wrote:You may call it stereo typing and indiscriminate and anti constitution and anti democratic and anti 21st century. I give you all of that.

That was indeed my point.

by Idéfix Wed Nov 19, 2014 2:26 pm

tingu wrote:@ ideifix -- do you accept collateral damage (jargon/excuse used by "democratic" states, not isis, and justified by it's citizens)?

In general, I do not. Often when the US military rolls out the collateral damage excuse, closer examination of the facts reveals either deliberate targeting of civilians or avoidable callousness in the selection of targets or execution of the plans.

by Idéfix Wed Nov 19, 2014 2:42 pm

tingu wrote:
Idéfix wrote:Over 76,000 people were arrested under this law. Only 35% of cases were brought to trial, of which 95% resulted in acquittals. Remember that the burden of proof was on the accused to prove innocence, not on the state to prove guilt. So of 75,000 people picked up, less than 1,500 (i.e. less than 2%) were convicted of crimes under this law. About 74,000 innocent people were punished under this law. Azmi was one of them.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorist_and_Disruptive_Activities_(Prevention)_Act#Impact

yes. but over 1 million lives were saved by detaining these individuals, who had, like azmi, engaged in activities akin to waging war on the state (like attending POK camps). they were acquitted because -- let me give you an example here. say i own an ak47 with no intent to use it. suddenly i get "revolted" by the idea of owning it. i decide to surrender it to the cops. do you think it is just that the cops arrest me instead? i know i will get an acquittal in supreme court (if it believes in natural justice) and will then become a lawyer and spend the rest of my life trying to acquit people facing trail for similar reasons.

A million, really?

Remember, that when the burden of proof is on the accused, it is much harder to get an acquittal than a guilty verdict. Even with that higher-than-normal standard, 98% of those arrested were acquitted. This means that the prosecution had really no evidence of crimes committed.

One of the most important principles of justice administered by a state is: do not punish the innocent. Even if that comes at the cost of letting some guilty people go unpunished. That key principle is violated -- the court probably meant that when it spoke of the principles of natural justice.

by truthbetold Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:05 pm

Idéfix wrote:
truthbetold wrote:The only group that is continuously disliked and attacked and killed across multiple states in India are left political extremists. All most all of them are hindu by birth. Indians and its politically enlightened intelligentsia have turned a blind eye to that massacre for decades.
I disagree. If you take the subject of this thread -- depiction in movies of human rights abuses -- there have been numerous movies that have documented human rights abuses from anti-leftist campaigns: from Maa Bhumi and dozens of movies in that genre to Hazaron Khwahishein Aisi. Depictions of human rights abuses from anti-Islamist campaigns are rarer. Depictions of human rights abuses from anti-secessionist campaigns in the northeast are even rarer.

Yes. We should disagree. Think of the publicity given to the encounter killing of sohrabuddin in gujarat vs encounter killings that happen at regular intervals in rest of India.

Some statements to remember:

MMS: "I could not sleep full night thinking about Haneef". when he heard that a muslim doctor was detained for questioning in relation to a terrorist incident in Scotland. He also said "Minorities have first right on the Resources".

Shinde, the Home minister of India:

After his recent advisory to state governments on release of minority youths allegedly wrongfully booked, Union Home Minister Sushil Kumar Shinde on Sunday said he would soon write a second letter asking state chief ministers to set up committees to scrutinize such cases.

"I will write a second letter to the states which will be sent in two to three days. Chief ministers will be asked to form committees to scrutinize cases of detention of accused belonging to minority communities and take expeditious decisions," Mr Shinde told reporters.

So Idefix, with your phenomenal search capabilities you can find similar support statements for other groups of persecuted Indian people. The simple truth is Indian security establishment is soft on Jehadi elements and does not employ many of the brutal techniques used against other persecuted groups.

by Guest Thu Nov 20, 2014 1:09 am

truthbetold wrote:
tingu wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Tingu

Are you familiar with populations in India? Are you aware of who naxals are and where are they currently operating in India? I can provide information once I understand where to start.

You can get a start by looking at the references listed above in this thread.

"i also want to know when hindus were targeted arbitrarily."

Help me understand what you mean by "arbitrarily".

An example of targeting Hindu activists is Targeting RSS activists during emergency.

please provide me a link of the page that says naxals are predominantly hindus. i would be much obliged.

re: arbitrarily attacking hindus post-rss-incident : please provide evidence of further examples.
Tingu,

"please provide me a link of the page that says naxals are predominantly hindus. i would be much obliged."

Becuse india is a country of majority hindu people, most naxals are hindus by birth.

"re: arbitrarily attacking hindus post-rss-incident : please provide evidence of further examples."

what is meant by post -rss - incident? what is meant by "arbitrarily"?

What do you know about "naxals"?

naxalites recruit primarily in tribal belts. they control vast swathes of india's forests. naxalites are largely tribals. they are NOT hindus.

by ashdoc Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:31 am

Idéfix wrote:Azmi went to a training camp in POK, but there was no accusation of him committing any act of terror, or any violent crime at all. If I remember right, the court said in the final judgment in his case that the principles of natural justice were violated when he was imprisoned, and acquitted him of all charges.

Shahid Azmi secured 17 acquittals in his seven-year legal career. Those are 17 people who would have spent years or decades in prison for crimes they did not commit. One of the objectives of a justice system is to not punish the innocent. When this principle is routinely violated, heroes like Shahid Azmi are needed to fight back. In my book, he was certainly a hero; he fought for justice within the constitutional system, and he often won.

going to a training camp in POK itself is an indication of intention to wage war against the indian state . just because shahid came back without completing training does not mean he should have been spared by indian police .

after all , those terrorist training camps in POK exist primarily to wage war on india , isn't it ??

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:43 am

ashdoc wrote:
Idéfix wrote:Azmi went to a training camp in POK, but there was no accusation of him committing any act of terror, or any violent crime at all. If I remember right, the court said in the final judgment in his case that the principles of natural justice were violated when he was imprisoned, and acquitted him of all charges.

Shahid Azmi secured 17 acquittals in his seven-year legal career. Those are 17 people who would have spent years or decades in prison for crimes they did not commit. One of the objectives of a justice system is to not punish the innocent. When this principle is routinely violated, heroes like Shahid Azmi are needed to fight back. In my book, he was certainly a hero; he fought for justice within the constitutional system, and he often won.
going to a training camp in POK itself is an indication of intention to wage war against the indian state . just because shahid came back without completing training does not mean he should have been spared by indian police .

after all , those terrorist training camps in POK exist primarily to wage war on india , isn't it ??

Idefix's version of justice and support for Azmi are laudable. Criminal lawyers like Tulsi, Jethmalani, etc., will applaud his legal brilliance.

If a tiger comes into Idefix's neighbourhood, he will do nothing until a person is dragged around with his neck in the tiger's mouth. Then, he will file a case against the tiger and let natural justice take its own course. He will give a copy of the legal notice to the tiger and talk to the neck in the tiger's mouth about how he will defend him in the court. He will insist on the judge allowing the accused all natural freedom until proven guilty. When the final verdict is given, he will congratulate the tomb stone of his client for winning the case against the guilty tiger.

by Propagandhi711 Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:09 am

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
ashdoc wrote:
Idéfix wrote:Azmi went to a training camp in POK, but there was no accusation of him committing any act of terror, or any violent crime at all. If I remember right, the court said in the final judgment in his case that the principles of natural justice were violated when he was imprisoned, and acquitted him of all charges.

Shahid Azmi secured 17 acquittals in his seven-year legal career. Those are 17 people who would have spent years or decades in prison for crimes they did not commit. One of the objectives of a justice system is to not punish the innocent. When this principle is routinely violated, heroes like Shahid Azmi are needed to fight back. In my book, he was certainly a hero; he fought for justice within the constitutional system, and he often won.
going to a training camp in POK itself is an indication of intention to wage war against the indian state . just because shahid came back without completing training does not mean he should have been spared by indian police .

after all , those terrorist training camps in POK exist primarily to wage war on india , isn't it ??
Idefix's version of justice and support for Azmi are laudable. Criminal lawyers like Tulsi, Jethmalani, etc., will applaud his legal brilliance.

If a tiger comes into Idefix's neighbourhood, he will do nothing until a person is dragged around with his neck in the tiger's mouth. Then, he will file a case against the tiger and let natural justice take its own course. He will give a copy of the legal notice to the tiger and talk to the neck in the tiger's mouth about how he will defend him in the court. He will insist on the judge allowing the accused all natural freedom until proven guilty. When the final verdict is given, he will congratulate the tomb stone of his client for winning the case against the guilty tiger.

lol....

by truthbetold Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:49 am

"they are NOT hindus."

Your contention is that tribals are not hindus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheduled_Castes_and_Scheduled_Tribes

According to sachar committee, scheduled tribes consist of 9% of Hindu population.

http://censusindia.gov.in/(S(0x2dgxf0hshu4v2uilpopk3u))/Census_And_You/religion.aspx

According to govt of India 2001 census, Hindus are 80.5% of population.

http://censusindia.gov.in/(S(qt5kvv55hy5cmpec0oh5hayu))/Census_Data_2001/India_at_glance/scst.aspx

According to govt of India 2001 census , scheduled tribes are 8.2% of population.

My arithmetic is not so good. But let me try:

Out of every 100 indians 8.2 are tribals.
Out of every 100 indians 80.5 are hindus.
Out of every 100 Indian hindus, 9.1 are tribal hindus.
Out of every 100 indians, 7.2 are tribal hindus.
Out of every 100 indian scheduled tribes, 87 are tribal hindus.

Any questions?

by Guest Thu Nov 20, 2014 9:45 am

truthbetold wrote:"they are NOT hindus."

Your contention is that tribals are not hindus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheduled_Castes_and_Scheduled_Tribes

According to sachar committee, scheduled tribes consist of 9% of Hindu population.

http://censusindia.gov.in/(S(0x2dgxf0hshu4v2uilpopk3u))/Census_And_You/religion.aspx

According to govt of India 2001 census, Hindus are 80.5% of population.

http://censusindia.gov.in/(S(qt5kvv55hy5cmpec0oh5hayu))/Census_Data_2001/India_at_glance/scst.aspx

According to govt of India 2001 census , scheduled tribes are 8.2% of population.

My arithmetic is not so good. But let me try:

Out of every 100 indians 8.2 are tribals.
Out of every 100 indians 80.5 are hindus.
Out of every 100 Indian hindus, 9.1 are tribal hindus.
Out of every 100 indians, 7.2 are tribal hindus.
Out of every 100 indian scheduled tribes, 87 are tribal hindus.

Any questions?

i don't buy this. here are the reasons:

- census reflects results only of those people who participate in it. the forest tribals are the poorest of the poor. census will reach them after electricity and clean water does;

- this "religious" sc/sts are urban dwellers (dalits) who have converted to "settle in." forest sc/sts, if they convert will convert to christianity. hinduism doe not have conversion campaigns;

- i have travelled extensively through the naxal districts of jharkhand (latehar, jhargram -- on work) and bihar (jamui -- out of curiosity) and i know these people. they have their own religion, language and festivals. i have also travelled through several non-naxal but tribal districts of bengal. they are NOT hindus;

- stop your arm chair conclusions based on statistics. you are way off the mark.

by Guest Thu Nov 20, 2014 9:46 am

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
ashdoc wrote:
Idéfix wrote:Azmi went to a training camp in POK, but there was no accusation of him committing any act of terror, or any violent crime at all. If I remember right, the court said in the final judgment in his case that the principles of natural justice were violated when he was imprisoned, and acquitted him of all charges.

Shahid Azmi secured 17 acquittals in his seven-year legal career. Those are 17 people who would have spent years or decades in prison for crimes they did not commit. One of the objectives of a justice system is to not punish the innocent. When this principle is routinely violated, heroes like Shahid Azmi are needed to fight back. In my book, he was certainly a hero; he fought for justice within the constitutional system, and he often won.
going to a training camp in POK itself is an indication of intention to wage war against the indian state . just because shahid came back without completing training does not mean he should have been spared by indian police .

after all , those terrorist training camps in POK exist primarily to wage war on india , isn't it ??
Idefix's version of justice and support for Azmi are laudable. Criminal lawyers like Tulsi, Jethmalani, etc., will applaud his legal brilliance.

If a tiger comes into Idefix's neighbourhood, he will do nothing until a person is dragged around with his neck in the tiger's mouth. Then, he will file a case against the tiger and let natural justice take its own course. He will give a copy of the legal notice to the tiger and talk to the neck in the tiger's mouth about how he will defend him in the court. He will insist on the judge allowing the accused all natural freedom until proven guilty. When the final verdict is given, he will congratulate the tomb stone of his client for winning the case against the guilty tiger.

LMAO

by southindian Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:30 am

Idéfix wrote:Azmi went to a training camp in POK, but there was no accusation of him committing any act of terror, or any violent crime at all. If I remember right, the court said in the final judgment in his case that the principles of natural justice were violated when he was imprisoned, and acquitted him of all charges.

Shahid Azmi secured 17 acquittals in his seven-year legal career. Those are 17 people who would have spent years or decades in prison for crimes they did not commit. One of the objectives of a justice system is to not punish the innocent. When this principle is routinely violated, heroes like Shahid Azmi are needed to fight back. In my book, he was certainly a hero; he fought for justice within the constitutional system, and he often won.

LOL! I agree with you.

Carrying a knife, carrying a gun, terrorist training to kill, learning to make bombs, intentions to kill/murder/rape and learning how to use a lathi ( Very Happy

) is no crime.

I'm more delighted that you don't work in law enforcement safeguarding a city or a country. Smile

@Vakavaka, The tiger analogy was fun.

by Guest Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:30 am

@ tbt

many years ago i was in an argument with flimflam (who does not know how to argue -- dunno why i was arguing with him). he was trying to use census data to show that hindi was not spoken by a majority and he gave a link to the census data that he was relying on. i pointed out that those who had selected urdu as their language stood excluded from the percentage that could speak and understand hindi. they should be added back to "hindi speakers." added also, i now feel, should have been those who chose punjabi or gujarati or rajasthani for they are all (almost all) fluent in hindi too. the fact is that some census questions are very disingenuously crafted and read like, "have you stopped beating your wife?" census data should not be used to form specific conclusions in arguments as you have done. that 87% of tribals are hindus is such a joke that if you say this to census officers, even they will laugh. had you arrived at, say 10 or 15%, i would have stood up and taken notice, albeit with scepticism nevertheless.

by Guest Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:33 am

southindian wrote:
Idéfix wrote:Azmi went to a training camp in POK, but there was no accusation of him committing any act of terror, or any violent crime at all. If I remember right, the court said in the final judgment in his case that the principles of natural justice were violated when he was imprisoned, and acquitted him of all charges.

Shahid Azmi secured 17 acquittals in his seven-year legal career. Those are 17 people who would have spent years or decades in prison for crimes they did not commit. One of the objectives of a justice system is to not punish the innocent. When this principle is routinely violated, heroes like Shahid Azmi are needed to fight back. In my book, he was certainly a hero; he fought for justice within the constitutional system, and he often won.

I'm more delighted that you don't work in law enforcement safeguarding a city or a country.

the closest he will get to that is being an admin in a forum. but once appointed with the job, he delivers. Shocked

then "natural inclination" and "natural justice" go for a toss!

by southindian Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:46 am

tingu wrote:
southindian wrote:
Idéfix wrote:Azmi went to a training camp in POK, but there was no accusation of him committing any act of terror, or any violent crime at all. If I remember right, the court said in the final judgment in his case that the principles of natural justice were violated when he was imprisoned, and acquitted him of all charges.

Shahid Azmi secured 17 acquittals in his seven-year legal career. Those are 17 people who would have spent years or decades in prison for crimes they did not commit. One of the objectives of a justice system is to not punish the innocent. When this principle is routinely violated, heroes like Shahid Azmi are needed to fight back. In my book, he was certainly a hero; he fought for justice within the constitutional system, and he often won.

I'm more delighted that you don't work in law enforcement safeguarding a city or a country.

the closest he will get to that is being an admin in a forum. but once appointed with the job, he delivers. then "natural inclination" and "natural justice" go for a toss!

Yup! I agree. That is why I have fun reading 'politically correct' replies on ALL posts.

I live in a real world and hate 'politically correct' responses.

by Guest Thu Nov 20, 2014 12:21 pm

southindian wrote:
tingu wrote:
southindian wrote:
Idéfix wrote:Azmi went to a training camp in POK, but there was no accusation of him committing any act of terror, or any violent crime at all. If I remember right, the court said in the final judgment in his case that the principles of natural justice were violated when he was imprisoned, and acquitted him of all charges.

Shahid Azmi secured 17 acquittals in his seven-year legal career. Those are 17 people who would have spent years or decades in prison for crimes they did not commit. One of the objectives of a justice system is to not punish the innocent. When this principle is routinely violated, heroes like Shahid Azmi are needed to fight back. In my book, he was certainly a hero; he fought for justice within the constitutional system, and he often won.

I'm more delighted that you don't work in law enforcement safeguarding a city or a country.

the closest he will get to that is being an admin in a forum. but once appointed with the job, he delivers. then "natural inclination" and "natural justice" go for a toss!
Yup! I agree. That is why I have fun reading 'politically correct' replies on ALL posts.

I live in a real world and hate 'politically correct' responses.

+1

by truthbetold Thu Nov 20, 2014 1:55 pm

tingu wrote:
truthbetold wrote:"they are NOT hindus."

Your contention is that tribals are not hindus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheduled_Castes_and_Scheduled_Tribes

According to sachar committee, scheduled tribes consist of 9% of Hindu population.

http://censusindia.gov.in/(S(0x2dgxf0hshu4v2uilpopk3u))/Census_And_You/religion.aspx

According to govt of India 2001 census, Hindus are 80.5% of population.

http://censusindia.gov.in/(S(qt5kvv55hy5cmpec0oh5hayu))/Census_Data_2001/India_at_glance/scst.aspx

According to govt of India 2001 census , scheduled tribes are 8.2% of population.

My arithmetic is not so good. But let me try:

Out of every 100 indians 8.2 are tribals.
Out of every 100 indians 80.5 are hindus.
Out of every 100 Indian hindus, 9.1 are tribal hindus.
Out of every 100 indians, 7.2 are tribal hindus.
Out of every 100 indian scheduled tribes, 87 are tribal hindus.

Any questions?

i don't buy this. here are the reasons:

- census reflects results only of those people who participate in it. the forest tribals are the poorest of the poor. census will reach them after electricity and clean water does;

- this "religious" sc/sts are urban dwellers (dalits) who have converted to "settle in." forest sc/sts, if they convert will convert to christianity. hinduism doe not have conversion campaigns;

- i have travelled extensively through the naxal districts of jharkhand (latehar, jhargram -- on work) and bihar (jamui -- out of curiosity) and i know these people. they have their own religion, language and festivals. i have also travelled through several non-naxal but tribal districts of bengal. they are NOT hindus;

- stop your arm chair conclusions based on statistics. you are way off the mark.

Tingu,

what weight does your acceptance or lack of it have on reality? Absolutely nothing.

By your own admission you have not seen most of India outside few eastern states. So what makes you an expert on India?

I am not interested in educating some one who displays boundless ignorance combined with enormous arrogance.

You have no understanding or experience with scientific data analysis.

Mouthing off does not make up for bringing data to the table.

by Guest Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:04 am

truthbetold wrote:
tingu wrote:
truthbetold wrote:"they are NOT hindus."

Your contention is that tribals are not hindus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheduled_Castes_and_Scheduled_Tribes

According to sachar committee, scheduled tribes consist of 9% of Hindu population.

http://censusindia.gov.in/(S(0x2dgxf0hshu4v2uilpopk3u))/Census_And_You/religion.aspx

According to govt of India 2001 census, Hindus are 80.5% of population.

http://censusindia.gov.in/(S(qt5kvv55hy5cmpec0oh5hayu))/Census_Data_2001/India_at_glance/scst.aspx

According to govt of India 2001 census , scheduled tribes are 8.2% of population.

My arithmetic is not so good. But let me try:

Out of every 100 indians 8.2 are tribals.
Out of every 100 indians 80.5 are hindus.
Out of every 100 Indian hindus, 9.1 are tribal hindus.
Out of every 100 indians, 7.2 are tribal hindus.
Out of every 100 indian scheduled tribes, 87 are tribal hindus.

Any questions?

i don't buy this. here are the reasons:

- census reflects results only of those people who participate in it. the forest tribals are the poorest of the poor. census will reach them after electricity and clean water does;

- this "religious" sc/sts are urban dwellers (dalits) who have converted to "settle in." forest sc/sts, if they convert will convert to christianity. hinduism doe not have conversion campaigns;

- i have travelled extensively through the naxal districts of jharkhand (latehar, jhargram -- on work) and bihar (jamui -- out of curiosity) and i know these people. they have their own religion, language and festivals. i have also travelled through several non-naxal but tribal districts of bengal. they are NOT hindus;

- stop your arm chair conclusions based on statistics. you are way off the mark.

Tingu,

what weight does your acceptance or lack of it have on reality? Absolutely nothing.

By your own admission you have not seen most of India outside few eastern states. So what makes you an expert on India?

I am not interested in educating some one who displays boundless ignorance combined with enormous arrogance.

You have no understanding or experience with scientific data analysis.

Mouthing off does not make up for bringing data to the table.

reality? boundless ignorance? really?

1) tribals in south are a marginal percentage. my experience of tribals in wb, jharkhand and bihar, covers large areas of tribal presence.

2) 20 to 30 percent of tribals are in NE. this belies your contention that 87% of tribals are hindus for these tribals are clearly christians

3) the census, "Depending on the context, classify the non-Christian tribals as Hindus for legal purposes." http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/books/wiah/ch9.htm

the census lies.

so much for your SCIENTIFIC DATA ANALYSIS. LOL!

any questions?

in my next reply i shall be calling you an idiot, be warned.

edit. to add

i have been exposed to tribals all my life. first santhals in north 24 parganas in bengal where my dad ran a factory. now all my unskilled workers in jamshedpur are tribals and i employ about 200 of them (at minimum wages with esi and pf). as i mentioned, i am familiar with them. i have dined, wined and danced with them during their tusu festival.

whereas you are a bloke somewhere in the USA doing SCIENTIFIC DATA ANALYSIS using crap-all statistics and having no exposure to tribals and arriving at BIZZARE conclusions. i gently remind you to re-examine. but NO! THE MAN IS ON A SCIENTIFIC MISSION! had i been you, i would have stopped for a moment and asked myself -- who is more likely to be right? "boundless idiocy" is the phrase that comes to my mind. chiii.

by Propagandhi711 Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:21 am

tingu wrote:

i have been exposed to tribals all my life. first santhals in north 24 parganas in bengal where my dad ran a factory. now all my unskilled workers in jamshedpur are tribals and i employ about 200 of them (at minimum wages with esi and pf). as i mentioned, i am familiar with them. i have dined, wined and danced with them during their tusu festival.

whereas you are a bloke somewhere in the USA doing SCIENTIFIC DATA ANALYSIS using crap-all statistics and having no exposure to tribals and arriving at BIZZARE conclusions. i gently remind you to re-examine. but NO! THE MAN IS ON A SCIENTIFIC MISSION! had i been you, i would have stopped for a moment and asked myself -- who is more likely to be right? "boundless idiocy" is the phrase that comes to my mind. chiii.

sampled any *other* wares of the tribal variety?

by Guest Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:36 am

Propagandhi711 wrote:
tingu wrote:

i have been exposed to tribals all my life. first santhals in north 24 parganas in bengal where my dad ran a factory. now all my unskilled workers in jamshedpur are tribals and i employ about 200 of them (at minimum wages with esi and pf). as i mentioned, i am familiar with them. i have dined, wined and danced with them during their tusu festival.

whereas you are a bloke somewhere in the USA doing SCIENTIFIC DATA ANALYSIS using crap-all statistics and having no exposure to tribals and arriving at BIZZARE conclusions. i gently remind you to re-examine. but NO! THE MAN IS ON A SCIENTIFIC MISSION! had i been you, i would have stopped for a moment and asked myself -- who is more likely to be right? "boundless idiocy" is the phrase that comes to my mind. chiii.

sampled any *other* wares of the tribal variety?

no. after trying "wares" in college that included prostitutes and after getting married, i decided to stay faithful. that does not mean i did not peruse the "massage parlours" columns of newspapers in mumbai and delhi when i was staying in a hotel. i did and i telephoned to hear the voice at the other end and engage in an "arousing" conversation. but that's about all i did -- i never crossed the line.

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