Paper Tigers: What happens to all the Asian-American overachievers when the test-taking ends?

http://nymag.com/news/features/asian-americans-2011-5/

i thoroughly enjoyed reading that. thanks for posting.

Great article! Thanks for sharing. I wish everybody here would read this article and talk about their own personal experiences with this topic. I will post my own personal experiences / thoughts in a separate response.

SomeProfile wrote:Great article! Thanks for sharing. I wish everybody here would read this article and talk about their own personal experiences with this topic. I will post my own personal experiences / thoughts in a separate response.

Are you an Asian-American - meaning a Chinese?

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

SomeProfile wrote:Great article! Thanks for sharing. I wish everybody here would read this article and talk about their own personal experiences with this topic. I will post my own personal experiences / thoughts in a separate response.

Are you an Asian-American - meaning a Chinese?

No, but there are some common factors and there are some differences too between Indians and them. That is why I am curious to hear the personal experiences of people here.

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
Are you an Asian-American - meaning a Chinese?

BTW, did you read the entire article?

Yes...just now finished it. I liked what the IBM guy told the young chap. That is brutally honest. I have seen the same thing among Indians. Except almost all Chinese and Koreans do, whereas quite a few Indians are not that stereotypical. I admired ThOmas Padre for the way he brought up his kids. It is the parents who shackle their kids with implanted traits that prevents them from succeeding. That is also the point I have stated. The top-line white guys will eat the top-line Chinese and Indians alive in wholesome development. The Asian kids are more advanced in test scores, Bookish learning, but lag behind the Americans a mile in other qualities. That is why I tell parents not to worry if they have a talkative, seemingly indisciplined, strong headed child - dont bottle their traits. These are the traits that will effectively challenge the whities in their own game.

Enjoyed these lines the most - this is the attitude I like.

Having glimpsed just how unacceptable the world judges my demeanor, could I too strive to make up for my shortcomings? Practice a shit-eating grin until it becomes natural? Love the world twice as hard?

I see the appeal of getting with the program. But this is not my choice. Striving to meet others’ expectations may be a necessary cost of assimilation, but I am not going to do it.

Often I think my defiance is just delusional, self-glorifying bullshit that artists have always told themselves to compensate for their poverty and powerlessness. But sometimes I think it’s the only thing that has preserved me intact, and that what has been preserved is not just haughty caprice but in fact the meaning of my life. So this is what I told Mao: In lieu of loving the world twice as hard, I care, in the end, about expressing my obdurate singularity at any cost. I love this hard and unyielding part of myself more than any other reward the world has to offer a newly brightened and ingratiating demeanor, and I will bear any costs associated with it.

The first step toward self-reform is to admit your deficiencies. Though my early adulthood has been a protracted education in them, I do not admit mine. I’m fine. It’s the rest of you who have a problem. Fuck all y’all.

Agree... Glad I read this today. Tomorrow, I have a meeting with my boss, and I am going to tell them This is how I am. You screw me and I will start digging your grave. Fuck all y'all.

Adding the bit before that as well...

Enjoyed these lines the most - this is the attitude I like.



I recall one of the strangest conversations I had in the city. A woman came up to me at a party and said she had been moved by a piece of writing I had published. She confessed that prior to reading it, she had never wanted to talk to me, and had always been sure, on the basis of what she could see from across the room, that I was nobody worth talking to, that I was in fact someone to avoid.

But she had been wrong about this, she told me: It was now plain to her that I was a person with great reserves of feeling and insight. She did not ask my forgiveness for this brutal misjudgment. Instead, what she wanted to know was—why had I kept that person she had glimpsed in my essay so well hidden? She confessed something of her own hidden sorrow: She had never been beautiful and had decided, early on, that it therefore fell to her to “love the world twice as hard.” Why hadn’t I done that?

Here was a drunk white lady speaking what so many others over the years must have been insufficiently drunk to tell me. It was the key to many things that had, and had not, happened. I understood this encounter better after learning about LEAP, and visiting Asian Playboy’s boot camp. If you are a woman who isn’t beautiful, it is a social reality that you will have to work twice as hard to hold anyone’s attention. You can either linger on the unfairness of this or you can get with the program. If you are an Asian person who holds himself proudly aloof, nobody will respect that, or find it intriguing, or wonder if that challenging façade hides someone worth getting to know. They will simply write you off as someone not worth the trouble of talking to.

Having glimpsed just how unacceptable the world judges my demeanor, could I too strive to make up for my shortcomings? Practice a shit-eating grin until it becomes natural? Love the world twice as hard?

I see the appeal of getting with the program. But this is not my choice. Striving to meet others’ expectations may be a necessary cost of assimilation, but I am not going to do it.

Often I think my defiance is just delusional, self-glorifying bullshit that artists have always told themselves to compensate for their poverty and powerlessness. But sometimes I think it’s the only thing that has preserved me intact, and that what has been preserved is not just haughty caprice but in fact the meaning of my life. So this is what I told Mao: In lieu of loving the world twice as hard, I care, in the end, about expressing my obdurate singularity at any cost. I love this hard and unyielding part of myself more than any other reward the world has to offer a newly brightened and ingratiating demeanor, and I will bear any costs associated with it.

The first step toward self-reform is to admit your deficiencies. Though my early adulthood has been a protracted education in them, I do not admit mine. I’m fine. It’s the rest of you who have a problem. Fuck all y’all.

blabberwock wrote:Adding the bit before that as well...

Enjoyed these lines the most - this is the attitude I like.

Okay. Now please share some personal stories or opinions.

>> Okay. Now please share some personal stories or opinions.

I will tell mine first as i need to go to sleep. The reason I like that IBM guys statement so much is bcz that is exactly what I tell - to the extent once I lectured a doctor in front of 10 people.

My great grandfather taught himself English at 60 and told his son (my grandfather) should educate his son (that is my father) one step higher. This story has been passed down and my family takes it as gospel to educate each generation one step higher. (unfortunately he did not tell each generation should make more money than the previous one.) The result is almost - by a curse - none seem to be enamored with money or wealth and obsessed only with education.

My name has a typo - thanks to the misspelling by my self-taught great grandfather, and this typo is being passed on to the future generations with the attached story - you can call it family pride. Oh... also, the great grandfather insisted on treating boys and girls equal and to bring them up to be independent (most are fiercely independent or even rebellious). Although I never saw "this great grandfather", my grandfather passed on a lot of stories about him to me.

I am Saamiyaar. I have tree. Got to sleep. bye.

SomeProfile wrote:

blabberwock wrote:Adding the bit before that as well...

Enjoyed these lines the most - this is the attitude I like.

Okay. Now please share some personal stories or opinions.

I have to admit that except for an odd exception here and there, most of the american indian/chinese kids I know seem to be getting on with the program - they exhibit the same attitude, self-confidence and at times, the irksome brashness associated with most american teenagers. The other day, I was riding the elevator with a bunch of chinese american college kids and the way they talked, acted was quite indistinguishable from the average american kid.

I don't know much about corporate america and so can't comment on that. Aren't there a lot of Indians occupying high positions at Sillicon Valley though?

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:I admired ThOmas Padre for the way he brought up his kids.

I saw him talk about this kids only once. It was a touching and different side of the man. Made me want to meet the kids... especially the daughter (hoping, of course, that she took more towards the mom than the dad). I may be wrong, but my impression was that they were bi-racial? May be that is part of the reason why they are different? Also, I think their mom had no insignificant hand in their upbringing.

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
I will tell mine first as i need to go to sleep. The reason I like that IBM guys statement so much is bcz that is exactly what I tell - to the extent once I lectured a doctor in front of 10 people.

I see this happen a lot: Indian guys are respected and listened to with rapt attention when they are talking of technical stuff. This makes the Indians feel valued and appreciated. They become more loyal and slog harder. But when it comes time for upper management moves, things shift to second gear for the Indians.

[quote="blabberwock"][quote="SomeProfile"][quote="blabberwock"]Adding the bit before that as well...


I don't know much about corporate america and so can't comment on that. Aren't there a lot of Indians occupying high positions at Sillicon Valley though?


>>>> The asian story probably doesn't quite match up evenly with the indian experience. The "not speaking up" may be more of an issue in these cultures than among Indians, if I were to make a broad generalization. There may also be the aspect of non-english speaking first generation parents that colors the Chinese experience. Individual experiences may vary, of course. The one other thing I can think of that Indian culture is not as homogeneous as say, the chinese. There are more class, regional variations even among those who have come to this country from what I have seen.
(yes, indians do occupy high positions in s.v. as well as in other industries and this is becoming more and more common)

blabberwock wrote:most of the american indian/chinese kids I know seem to be getting on with the program - they exhibit the same attitude, self-confidence and at times, the irksome brashness associated with most american teenagers.

One of the things the article talks about is how just qualifications and behaviors don't seem to always matter. People still look at your Asian face and make assumptions about you. I think this is true in my own personal experience as well. I am not a loud-mouth show-off. But, I am smarter, more confident, more risk- and initiative-taking, and generally more unflappable than most of my colleagues of whatever nationality. Surprisingly (for me, more than anybody else!), I even seem to network much more than most of my American colleagues. But professionally, I am not in as good a place as I would have been if I was white. I have seen white guys get praised and fawned over by their bosses (both American and Indian bosses) for saying and doing far less.

I am witnessing one senior Indian guy, with the best proven track record of delivery in the company, being unceremoniously pushed to the side and deliberately suppressed. Meanwhile, things are falling apart. Everybody knows he can fix it. He has himself offered to fix it and given suggestions to higher management. But his suggestions are being politely listened to and ignored. He is definitely not being given an opportunity to save the day. If he was given the opportunity now, his achievements would be even more stellar and visible company-wide than ever before. Worse, he would trump a couple of white guys above him and everybody would know that. So, he's being kept in check. I bluntly suggested to him that he might have hit the glass ceiling in the company and he should start looking elsewhere. He agreed that may be true, but he said he wanted to knock on the doors a couple more times. Especially because the company needs him now more than at any other time. I suggested to him that even if the company gives him a chance now, it may be only because they need him and once the storm has passed, the glass ceiling will remain. He was impressed by my insight and said he is aware of these factors and will keep an eye out for them. Even with these utterances, he is showing his quintessential Indian-ness. An American would have sought and gotten a much better opportunity elsewhere a long time ago. The worst part of this story is that this senior guy is aware of all this.

The article is also spot on about the fact that none of this is overt racial bias. I have never directly felt or experienced racial bias in the American school or workplace.

Kris wrote:

blabberwock wrote:

I don't know much about corporate america and so can't comment on that. Aren't there a lot of Indians occupying high positions at Sillicon Valley though?

>>>> The asian story probably doesn't quite match up evenly with the indian experience. The "not speaking up" may be more of an issue in these cultures than among Indians, if I were to make a broad generalization. There may also be the aspect of non-english speaking first generation parents that colors the Chinese experience. Individual experiences may vary, of course. The one other thing I can think of that Indian culture is not as homogeneous as say, the chinese. There are more class, regional variations even among those who have come to this country from what I have seen.
(yes, indians do occupy high positions in s.v. as well as in other industries and this is becoming more and more common)

Good points especially about the asian parents not being fluent in English. Obviously, my exposure to American Indian/Chinese kids is rather limited and most of the people I know come from a certain socioeconomic background.

Read the first page last night but could not read the rest. Seeing these responses will finish this up tonight.

[quote="SomeProfile"]

blabberwock wrote:People still look at your Asian face and make assumptions about you.

What is so surprising about this. People ALWAYS stereotype (and end up wrong many times). That is part of the necessary discriminating in-built quality in humans, who use it to separate the ones they want from the many. Look around. It is there everywhere at work, personal life, and ANY profession. Indians cannot recognize who is who in a crowd of Chinese or blacks.

But, what is not PC is to express it openly - use it as a tool in your personal analysis.

blabberwock wrote:[Aren't there a lot of Indians occupying high positions at Sillicon Valley though?

the silicon valley indians who have made it big have made it big by being entrepreneurial. this article mostly talks about going up the fortune 500 corporate ladder which in the highest management ranks is sparsely populated by indians.

in fact i have plenty of silicon valley friends who in their thirties and early forties decided not to fight this and kicked their corporate jobs to try and make it on their own. not everyone has been successful but at least they're trying.

Agree... for every successful Indian case, there are 100s of failures. As always, we hear only about the successful ones - as people don't want to hear about the failures.

People lose sight of the fact that given the % of desi software and high tech guys in the Silicon Valley, the number in the upper mgmt is abysmal. It is the % that maters ultimately.

can someone briefly tell me what amy chua's book (that the author referenced in his essay) did in america? what exactly happened? what did she say? i had done a wikipedia look up on amy chua earlier but hadn't found anything of substance on this score.

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:can someone briefly tell me what amy chua's book (that the author referenced in his essay) did in america? what exactly happened? what did she say? i had done a wikipedia look up on amy chua earlier but hadn't found anything of substance on this score.

created a huge debate: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html

txs TW. i did not read her whole essay 'cos after reading a bit into it, i realized that i had read it before -- there were earlier links to her thoughts in old ch.

i read wesley yang's essay. it was quite boring though a bit clever at moments. on the whole, i agree with kris' assesment that the experience of the indian diaspora has been different. cleverly, like wesley yang, i want to emphasize that this is not a racist take of the situation. but, his essay, at the end, sounded hollow. i feel so 'cos i don't live in america -- i live in india. the passages blabberwock highlights above -- i too thought -- were the most eloquent bit in a long and boring essay. though blabberwock does not find the essay boring (i must add).

edited. to add

yeah it was written by some underachieving chip-on-the-shoulder dropout type. quite boring in final analysis even if he could hold your attention for a while.

HK, I posted the WSJ link so that you could read some of the comments in the comments tab, since you asked what was the effect of the amy chau book on people. That comments tab will give a decent snapshot.

Anyway, I just read the first page, where he doesn't identify with his Korean face... luckily no issues at home.. daughter is sorta brown, and totally understands how she's different. She loves Indian music, can understand Hindi, and bits of Gujarati, and her dad's mother tongue. Hates eating Indian food if repeated too often, but loves some dishes. Currently has all American friends, but I can see she crushes for desi boys.

Sonny is too young, but he had a hard type accepting he is Indian. He has pretty light skin. Till the age of 5, he refused to call himself Indian or brown - would say he is white, I would then say, ok you are light brown, to which he would compromise with 'I am dark white'. Talks or understands very little Hindi... Not too fond of Indian music, but boy, any day and time, he can have daal-roti-sabzi. Somedays, he demands for it and calls it 'khana', he is the only one who finishes up on desi namkeen snacks, and loves laddu... Slowly, he is picking up on the rest of his heritage too.

Tracy Whitney wrote:HK, I posted the WSJ link so that you could read some of the comments in the comments tab, since you asked what was the effect of the amy chau book on people. That comments tab will give a decent snapshot.

i will read the comments (now).

Anyway, I just read the first page, where he doesn't identify with his Korean face... luckily no issues at home.. daughter is sorta brown, and totally understands how she's different. She loves Indian music, can understand Hindi, and bits of Gujarati, and her dad's mother tongue. Hates eating Indian food if repeated too often, but loves some dishes. Currently has all American friends, but I can see she crushes for desi boys.

Sonny is too young, but he had a hard type accepting he is Indian. He has pretty light skin. Till the age of 5, he refused to call himself Indian or brown - would say he is white, I would then say, ok you are light brown, to which he would compromise with 'I am dark white'. Talks or understands very little Hindi... Not too fond of Indian music, but boy, any day and time, he can have daal-roti-sabzi. Somedays, he demands for it and calls it 'khana', he is the only one who finishes up on desi namkeen snacks, and loves laddu... Slowly, he is picking up on the rest of his heritage too.

that is why the experience is different for indians. i don't recall who said it (w yang, amy chua or kris) but one important underlying factor is that we indian immigrants speak good english (unlike them). and not just we "speak" good english but it is also our mother tongue! ok, asians read and write better western music but it is a bit more complicated than that!

let me also thank you for the forthrightness you you have displayed in describing the scene in your house with respect to your kids: down to their skin tone. i have no doubt that you are a model mother raising gems of kids. keep nurturing this environment. you are great. or should i say, tussi great ho!

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
that is why the experience is different for indians. i don't recall who said it (w yang, amy chua or kris) but one important underlying factor is that we indian immigrants speak good english (unlike them). and not just we "speak" good english but it is also our mother tongue! ok, asians read and write better western music but it is a bit more complicated than that!

1. Americans are not overtly racist. So, if you speak up, take initiative and take on the leadership role, they won't generally resist. They may still have their innate impressions based on your ethnic looks. But they will still work with you. I am sure there are plenty of exceptions to this, but that's been my experience. This works in favor of Indians. Also, Indians don't look like 'Asians'. Guess that makes a difference as well.

2. There may be more 'Asians' who are into Western music than Indians . This is only because Indians have their own very rich and still very strong native musical forms. So, most Indian kids are sent to learn classical Indian music rather than Western music. AFAIK, this is not true of Asian countries. Most of them have allowed their traditional musical disciplines to erode drastically.

and indian americans are beginning to forge their own independent paths in western musical idioms like jazz instead of taking the cookie cutter violin and piano playing western classical path. in the old CH i've posted quite a bit about vijay iyer and rudresh mahanthappa.

I also found it interesting that there was a 'pick-up artist' angle in the article. Didn't expect that, but it makes sense. When it comes to inter-cultural relationships and rivalries, beating the opponent in business or in academic achievements or even sports doesn't compare to the experience of banging their women.

Imagine sitting in a business meeting with 30 other people of various races and havig the secret knowledge that you have kissed the lips of the hottest white woman in the room. That is certainly better than knowing that you might be better educated than most others in the room.

PS: Idea for my next story.

Imagine sitting in a business meeting with 30 other people of various races and havig the secret knowledge that you have kissed the lips of the hottest white woman in the room. That is certainly better than knowing that you might be better educated than most others in the room.

it appears that you're putting pussy on a pedestal. I never understood this whole concept of "banging-their-women" as revenge or to prove superiority over some other guy/group. something medievally islamish and yes, sexist and treating women like commodies etc etc abt that sentiment. one needs to bang women coz one finds them irresistable but not as punishment or keeping score over someone else.

Propagandhi711 wrote:Imagine sitting in a business meeting with 30 other people of various races and havig the secret knowledge that you have kissed the lips of the hottest white woman in the room. That is certainly better than knowing that you might be better educated than most others in the room.

it appears that you're putting pussy on a pedestal. I never understood this whole concept of "banging-their-women" as revenge or to prove superiority over some other guy/group. something medievally islamish and yes, sexist and treating women like commodies etc etc abt that sentiment. one needs to bang women coz one finds them irresistable but not as punishment or keeping score over someone else.

It's something primal, a carry-over from the days when the alpha male got the best portion of the food and the best women. We hope that we have evolved beyond that. But in some ways, we have not... In an age when most of us don't hunt or get into physical fights with our competitors, just about the only primal thing left for us to do is to fuck.

I guess I'm a purist when it comes to the pussy.

SomeProfile wrote:

Propagandhi711 wrote:Imagine sitting in a business meeting with 30 other people of various races and havig the secret knowledge that you have kissed the lips of the hottest white woman in the room. That is certainly better than knowing that you might be better educated than most others in the room.

it appears that you're putting pussy on a pedestal. I never understood this whole concept of "banging-their-women" as revenge or to prove superiority over some other guy/group. something medievally islamish and yes, sexist and treating women like commodies etc etc abt that sentiment. one needs to bang women coz one finds them irresistable but not as punishment or keeping score over someone else.

It's something primal, a carry-over from the days when the alpha male got the best portion of the food and the best women. We hope that we have evolved beyond that. But in some ways, we have not... In an age when most of us don't hunt or get into physical fights with our competitors, just about the only primal thing left for us to do is to fuck.

What is your definition of the best women? Just wondering if you are limiting it to white women.
I for one would bang a woman I find hot and not because of everyone else in the club/bar/boardroom thinks is hot. Being primal is more about being selective and have the i-fuck-who-i-want attitude.

jayZ wrote:
What is your definition of the best women? Just wondering if you are limiting it to white women.

No, of course, not. It totally depends on the situation, the place and time.

lot of paper tigers on this thread.

Propagandhi711 wrote:yeah it was written by some underachieving chip-on-the-shoulder dropout type. quite boring in final analysis even if he could hold your attention for a while.

>>> This was pretty much what I thought...

Are these problems in corporate america and social life also faced by second/third generation indian/chinese americans?

Or is it specific to Indians and other asians who were not born and raised in the US but went there as grad students?

I doubt this is universal even among people who come to this forum, pretty much all of whom grew up in india.