kunthiyin mainthan (tamil content)

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Sep 15, 2012 7:05 pm

my father sent me links to these youtube videos by nellai kaNNan. karNan is one of the most tragic characters in indian mythology and reminds me of so many shakespearean heroes. i liked watching this character analysis of karNan by nellai kaNNan mixed in with contemporary politics and a rapier sense of humor. i also love the thirunelveli thamizh accent.

here is part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im2z_m7vTp4

you can find the rest yourself.

by Kris Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:01 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:my father sent me links to these youtube videos by nellai kaNNan. karNan is one of the most tragic characters in indian mythology and reminds me of so many shakespearean heroes. i liked watching this character analysis of karNan by nellai kaNNan mixed in with contemporary politics and a rapier sense of humor. i also love the thirunelveli thamizh accent.

here is part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im2z_m7vTp4

you can find the rest yourself.

>>>>The first time I have heard this type of analysis in tamil. This gentleman's repertoire of knowledge is mind blowing, even though I couldn't follow some of the poetry. Karna' s story is indeed a veritable Greek tragedy where the odds are stacked against him from the get-go. NK emphasizes the nuanced characters in one of the video clips I listened to, which I have always found impressive about the MB- not all characters are uniformly good or uniformly bad. In one of the interactions, Arjuna is in fact taken to task for violating the rules of dharmic warfare in his attack on Karna when he is helpless (with his chariot stuck in the ground). I forget who censures him, but they make a point of Arjuna being in the wrong and question him on whether he was taught by Krishna to fight in this unjust manner. I am hoping to listen to the rest of the clips shortly and referring my dad to this. It would be something he woud very much like. Thanks.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:48 am

yes i love karNA's character warts and all. the ultimate pathos in the story is when kunthi who he learns is his mother very late in his life comes to him to beg him to spare arjunA's life. realizing full well that doing so will result in his own death on the battlefield, he grants that to her but with two conditions -- that she should grieve for him publicly when he dies so that the public stigma of being an orphan will be erased at his death and that she should not let on that he is her oldest son before his death; for if she does so, the pAndavAs will give him the kingdom, the battle will cease, but duryodanA will ultimately be the victor, for he could but pursue one course of action -- to hand the kingdom over to duryodanA.

and even at the end providence doesn't leave him alone. when he is mortally wounded on the battlefield, a brahmin (krishnA in this guise of a brahmin) approaches him to beg for alms. karNA who is renowned for his generosity has nothing to give him in this final hour of his life, so the brahmin asks him for all his accumulated good karma and karNA gladly parts with all of it.

i didn't like the tamil movie that was made based on his character with the usual sivaji ganesan melodrama on full display, but sIrkAzhi govindarAjan's song "uLLathil nalla uLLam" is beautifully done with so much pathos.

a lot of the background material nellai kaNNan used in the exposition of karNan came from bharathi's panjAli sabatham and villipuththurAr's bhAratham.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:03 am

actually i got it a bit wrong. he doesn't tell kunthi that he'll spare arjunA but that she'll have five sons living at the end of the battle, i.e. he or arjunA will live at the end of the battle, knowing full well that krishnA's guile will ensure his own death at the hands of arjunA.

by Kris Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:27 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:actually i got it a bit wrong. he doesn't tell kunthi that he'll spare arjunA but that she'll have five sons living at the end of the battle, i.e. he or arjunA will live at the end of the battle, knowing full well that krishnA's guile will ensure his own death at the hands of arjunA.

>>>There is another tidbit which I was not aware of until I saw the version that came on PBS( can't recall the name of the person who made it) with an international cast. Karna laments to Krishna (!) that war is not good for the same reasons Arjuna does on the battlefield later- society becoming depleted of its able men, the loss of kuladharma etc. Both of course end up fighting for their own reasons.

P.S. 'Ullathil Nalla Ullam' actually used to move me to tears, with Krishna begging Karna's forgiveness. As NK alludes to somewhere, the moral victory is ultimately Karna's in that Krishna himself has to admit he is in the wrong.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:49 pm

Kris wrote:
P.S. 'Ullathil Nalla Ullam' actually used to move me to tears, with Krishna begging Karna's forgiveness.

மன்னவர் பணி ஏற்கும்
கண்ணனும் பணி செய்ய
உன்னடி பணிவானடா, கர்ணா
மன்னித்து அருள்வாயடா, கர்ணா
மன்னித்து அருள்வாயடா

by Kris Sun Sep 16, 2012 1:05 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Kris wrote:
P.S. 'Ullathil Nalla Ullam' actually used to move me to tears, with Krishna begging Karna's forgiveness.

மன்னவர் பணி ஏற்கும்
கண்ணனும் பணி செய்ய
உன்னடி பணிவானடா, கர்ணா
மன்னித்து அருள்வாயடா, கர்ணா
மன்னித்து அருள்வாயடா

>>> Yeah, that's the paragraph. Also, i think the preceding verse culiminates with 'vanjagan kannan aDA'. I have to go back and listen to it. I have never heard a justification for why karna was fated to live this life. In the hindu world-view, this should have been some kind of a karmic balancing. Yet, there is no mention in the MB of what he may have done (presumably in some prior life) that would have brought this about.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:39 pm

Kris wrote:

>>>There is another tidbit which I was not aware of until I saw the version that came on PBS( can't recall the name of the person who made it) with an international cast. Karna laments to Krishna (!) that war is not good for the same reasons Arjuna does on the battlefield later- society becoming depleted of its able men, the loss of kuladharma etc. Both of course end up fighting for their own reasons.

is this the peter brooks version? wish there was an indian telling of the epic shorn of melodrama. the story is dramatic enough without the need for it.

by Kris Sun Sep 16, 2012 3:53 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Kris wrote:

>>>There is another tidbit which I was not aware of until I saw the version that came on PBS( can't recall the name of the person who made it) with an international cast. Karna laments to Krishna (!) that war is not good for the same reasons Arjuna does on the battlefield later- society becoming depleted of its able men, the loss of kuladharma etc. Both of course end up fighting for their own reasons.

is this the peter brooks version? wish there was an indian telling of the epic shorn of melodrama. the story is dramatic enough without the need for it.

>>>Yeah, it was Brooks, although the version I saw on TV was pared down from the original. I haven't seen any of the indian versions. I know there was a TV serial- don't know if there were subsequent ones.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:50 pm

Kris wrote:
>>> Yeah, that's the paragraph. Also, i think the preceding verse culiminates with 'vanjagan kannan aDA'. I have to go back and listen to it. I have never heard a justification for why karna was fated to live this life. In the hindu world-view, this should have been some kind of a karmic balancing. Yet, there is no mention in the MB of what he may have done (presumably in some prior life) that would have brought this about.

I think Krishna simply followed his own teaching. "Just do you duty and whatever is needed to accomplish fulfill your responsibilities."

So he did what it took to make the Pandavas win, and then assigned vague excuses and reasons for all the gOl Mals he did....

(Just what the Wall Street Looters do these days...)

by Kris Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:30 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
Kris wrote:
>>> Yeah, that's the paragraph. Also, i think the preceding verse culiminates with 'vanjagan kannan aDA'. I have to go back and listen to it. I have never heard a justification for why karna was fated to live this life. In the hindu world-view, this should have been some kind of a karmic balancing. Yet, there is no mention in the MB of what he may have done (presumably in some prior life) that would have brought this about.

I think Krishna simply followed his own teaching. "Just do you duty and whatever is needed to accomplish fulfill your responsibilities."

So he did what it took to make the Pandavas win, and then assigned vague excuses and reasons for all the gOl Mals he did....

(Just what the Wall Street Looters do these days...)

>>>> Krishna definitely prosecutes the war with an 'ends justify the means' mindset and is consistent. The point I was making is that Karna's 'fate' is never explained. Seems like a loose end in a tradition the diligently assigns cause- effect relationships over lifetimes. Even Krishna's actions are punished with Gandhari's curse and its fulfilment-- whereby, his women feel the same pain upon his departure from this life. As far as I know, there is not even a tenuous reasoning for Karna's tragedy.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:56 pm

Kris wrote:
>>>> Krishna definitely prosecutes the war with an 'ends justify the means' mindset and is consistent. The point I was making is that Karna's 'fate' is never explained.

May be you have seen this: Still

...Possible reasons for Karna's suffering/fate...

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:52 pm

Kris wrote: I haven't seen any of the indian versions. I know there was a TV serial- don't know if there were subsequent ones.

you haven't missed anything. in the 90s when i was in college there was a hindi version on television which was quite popular. i found it then as i do now, excessively melodramatic. i am sure you can find the whole thing on youtube. sometimes when you have a story that has the vastness, drama, and majesty of a greek tragedy like the MB, the best thing you can do is understatement, something unknown to indians.

by Kris Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:53 am

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
Kris wrote:
>>>> Krishna definitely prosecutes the war with an 'ends justify the means' mindset and is consistent. The point I was making is that Karna's 'fate' is never explained.

May be you have seen this: Still

...Possible reasons for Karna's suffering/fate...

>>> I think the guys who responded are also grappling with the same issue. The MB itelf doesn't go into it, as far as I know.

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