Re: the elephant in the room

by Guest Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:12 pm

Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:
Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:marvin gaye hints at The Reason.
and sings the three-letter word.

you?

by Hellsangel Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:21 pm

by b_A Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:27 pm

Rashmun wrote:
Propagandhi711 wrote:
Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:
Propagandhi711 wrote:...run butt naked through the streets of an university town...
hahaha @"an university town." what you should do is to always spell "university" as "ooniversity"; then you'd be correct to say "an ooniversity town."

Looks like the pigtailed, coy teen girl ran away and the cranky old school marm with itchy hemorrhoids returned. Anyway, did you lose your fear of uttering the word, phlegmy? The peeps are dying to know the answer to the great puzzle of 2012. If you're too shy to say it, say it into huz's ear na? You're always trying to sidle up to him to get a mouthful of his teats, this might be your golden opportunity.

Propa were you brought up to talk to your elders in this kind of gutter language ?

You admitted that you have used gutter language against QB in the past. So, were you brought up to talk to women in that kind of gutter language ?

by Guest Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:56 pm

*fweeet* sweet ele phelly, please come. biscuit?

by Merlot Daruwala Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:39 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:*fweeet* sweet ele phelly, please come. biscuit?

Biscuit not good enough, Hoozay. It'll take your hairy shoulders AND ears to seduce the answer to this little riddle out of Vee Unkil.

by bw Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:49 am

in a classic study of
the relationship between war and violence within war-making societies,
Dane Archer uses historical, cross-national data to demonstrate how war
making produces significant and consistent elevations in homicide rates
among ordinary citizens. The legitimation and sanctioning of murder,
atrocities and the targeting of civilians in war causes an increase in
murder at home. I am not trying to suggest that the fact that the
shooter was dressed in camouflage indicates he was directly emulating
Sergeant Bales, but we live in a violent culture that certainly does not
begin and end with violent video games and Quentin Tarantino
movies. Dehumanization of others (real people who bleed, not
computerized images on a screen) creates the ability to do monstrous
things like kill twenty kids, whether it is in an Iraqi prison or a
Colorado movie theater, in an Afghan village or a Connecticut elementary
school. Criminalizing all those labeled as mentally ill or (attempting)
to make guns harder to get will not change that basic universal
precursor to all atrocious acts – that of seeing other people as not
worthy of life.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/12/18/misdiagnosing-the-culture-of-violence/

by Merlot Daruwala Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:54 am

Uff...so what's the word, woman? END? NOT? WAS? GET? ILL??

by Jeremiah Mburuburu Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:22 am

bw wrote:war

thank you. marvin gaye sings it in "what's going on" at 0:56.

by bw Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:10 am

When Clinton was president, his secretary of state,
Madeline Albright, a representative of the American people, was
questioned by Lesley Stahl on 60 minutes about the effect of US inspired
sanctions on Iraq: “We have heard that a half million children have
died. I mean, that’s more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you
know, is the price worth it?” Secretary of State Albright calmly
responded: “I think this is a very hard choice, but the price–we think
the price is worth it.”

As the representative of the American people President
Obama, not unlike his immediate predecessor in office, George W. Bush,
has been waging horrendous wars in which hundreds of thousands have been
killed, mostly civilians, including, of course, children. Alas, many
of these children were the same age as those killed in Newtown. And
President Obama claims he has the right to assassinate anybody he
decides anywhere in the world and he has been very busy doing just that
with drones and other sophisticated methods. The killing is routine.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/12/19/is-america-adam-lanza/

by Rishi Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:51 am

bw wrote:in a classic study of
the relationship between war and violence within war-making societies,
Dane Archer uses historical, cross-national data to demonstrate how war
making produces significant and consistent elevations in homicide rates
among ordinary citizens. The legitimation and sanctioning of murder,
atrocities and the targeting of civilians in war causes an increase in
murder at home. I am not trying to suggest that the fact that the
shooter was dressed in camouflage indicates he was directly emulating
Sergeant Bales, but we live in a violent culture that certainly does not
begin and end with violent video games and Quentin Tarantino
movies. Dehumanization of others (real people who bleed, not
computerized images on a screen) creates the ability to do monstrous
things like kill twenty kids, whether it is in an Iraqi prison or a
Colorado movie theater, in an Afghan village or a Connecticut elementary
school. Criminalizing all those labeled as mentally ill or (attempting)
to make guns harder to get will not change that basic universal
precursor to all atrocious acts – that of seeing other people as not
worthy of life.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/12/18/misdiagnosing-the-culture-of-violence/

Then why were there not many murders among Japanese during WW II?

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:05 am

bw wrote:in a classic study of
the relationship between war and violence within war-making societies,
Dane Archer uses historical, cross-national data to demonstrate how war
making produces significant and consistent elevations in homicide rates
among ordinary citizens. The legitimation and sanctioning of murder,
atrocities and the targeting of civilians in war causes an increase in
murder at home. I am not trying to suggest that the fact that the
shooter was dressed in camouflage indicates he was directly emulating
Sergeant Bales, but we live in a violent culture that certainly does not
begin and end with violent video games and Quentin Tarantino
movies. Dehumanization of others (real people who bleed, not
computerized images on a screen) creates the ability to do monstrous
things like kill twenty kids, whether it is in an Iraqi prison or a
Colorado movie theater, in an Afghan village or a Connecticut elementary
school. Criminalizing all those labeled as mentally ill or (attempting)
to make guns harder to get will not change that basic universal
precursor to all atrocious acts – that of seeing other people as not
worthy of life.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/12/18/misdiagnosing-the-culture-of-violence/

correlation does not imply causation no matter how compelling it looks. i tried accessing the "classic study" cited in the article, but only got to the first page. i'd really like to know if the study has conclusively shown that war making abroad causes gun homicides to increase at home and how she demonstrated that. i am not saying it isn't possible, but just that the counterpunch article is not convincing. there were some reports that lanza wanted to join the military and had his entire basement decked out in symbols of the american military. so this intrigues me.

and whether the original claim was true or not, madeline albright's response is reprehensible.

by Maria S Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:07 am

After all the build up..is that it?

"WAR" is quite a bad guess in this case (no matter which expert or essayist says it)..and I don't buy it at all.

*As for Marvin Gaye's songs..he may have be worried about war (anti-war) and felt compassion like everyone..but it does take a genius to see what he was "projecting/implying" for the most part in almost all his songs..he was crying for himself and crying for children who were being abused by their families..wanted to heal himself and save others, esp children..

Marvin was a tortured soul from the day he was born to the day he was killed by his own father..there was too much domestic violence in his home. His father was physically and emotionally abusive- until the day he killed him..if anything the central terrorizing person was his DAD..and in his case, war perhaps had very little to do with his lyrics.

Obviously..from the beginning of time..many tribes/states/countries have been-perpertually in a state of war..and there is no question its causes devastating misery/psycholocial problems which manifests itself in different ways as societal problems..but, not mindlessly killing one's "own mother" and randomly strangers- including small children within a matter of hours" *(which makes this quite unique picking of victims- with deep individual domestic/family violence roots, imo).

I would stick to MGU (in my previous comments).

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:12 am

Rishi wrote:
bw wrote:in a classic study of
the relationship between war and violence within war-making societies,
Dane Archer uses historical, cross-national data to demonstrate how war
making produces significant and consistent elevations in homicide rates
among ordinary citizens. The legitimation and sanctioning of murder,
atrocities and the targeting of civilians in war causes an increase in
murder at home. I am not trying to suggest that the fact that the
shooter was dressed in camouflage indicates he was directly emulating
Sergeant Bales, but we live in a violent culture that certainly does not
begin and end with violent video games and Quentin Tarantino
movies. Dehumanization of others (real people who bleed, not
computerized images on a screen) creates the ability to do monstrous
things like kill twenty kids, whether it is in an Iraqi prison or a
Colorado movie theater, in an Afghan village or a Connecticut elementary
school. Criminalizing all those labeled as mentally ill or (attempting)
to make guns harder to get will not change that basic universal
precursor to all atrocious acts – that of seeing other people as not
worthy of life.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/12/18/misdiagnosing-the-culture-of-violence/

Then why were there not many murders among Japanese during WW II?

japan has a rich history of violence. read up.

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:16 am

Maria S wrote:After all the build up..is that it?

"WAR" is quite a bad guess in this case (no matter which expert or essayist says it)..and I don't buy it at all.

*As for Marvin Gaye's songs..he may have be worried about war (anti-war) and felt compassion like everyone..but it does take a genius to see what he was "projecting/implying" for the most part in almost all his songs..he was crying for himself and crying for children who were being abused by their families..wanted to heal himself and save others..

Marvin was a tortured soul from the day he was born to the day he was killed by his own father..there was too much domestic violence in his home. His father was physically and emotionally abusive- until the day he killed him..if anything the central terrorizing person was his DAD..in his case, war perhaps had very little to his lyrics.

Obviously..from the beginning of time..many tribes/states/countries have been-perpertually in a state of war..and there is no question its causes devastating misery/psycholocial problems which manifests itself in different ways as societal problems..but, not mindlessly killing one's "own mother" and randomly strangers- including small children within a matter of hours" *(which makes this quite unique picking of victims- with deep domestic/family violence roots, imo).

I would stick to MGU (in my previous comments).

maria: have you been listening to the NPR radio programs on the mental health crisis in the US? if so what did you think of them? it was really startling to know that you cannot have a mentally ill adult committed unless they commit a crime. just being violent is insufficient. and the total number of beds available in the US for the mentally ill is appallingly small. i was quite unaware of how much the system had been gutted post world war II.

by confuzzled dude Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:52 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
correlation does not imply causation no matter how compelling it looks. i tried accessing the "classic study" cited in the article, but only got to the first page. i'd really like to know if the study has conclusively shown that war making abroad causes gun homicides to increase at home and how she demonstrated that. i am not saying it isn't possible, but just that the counterpunch article is not convincing. there were some reports that lanza wanted to join the military and had his entire basement decked out in symbols of the american military. so this intrigues me.

and whether the original claim was true or not, madeline albright's response is reprehensible.

I think think this country's WAR culture has some impact, as I mentioned my feelings about a radio host's remarks in my earlier response on this thread; but again, you're right, Switzerland which probably has not been in any wars recently, has higher homicide rate, one common theme here is gun control or lack there of.

by confuzzled dude Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:01 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
maria: have you been listening to the NPR radio programs on the mental health crisis in the US? if so what did you think of them? it was really startling to know that you cannot have a mentally ill adult committed unless they commit a crime. just being violent is insufficient. and the total number of beds available in the US for the mentally ill is appallingly small. i was quite unaware of how much the system had been gutted post world war II.

and what about the drugs with irrecoverable side effects that are being pushed down the throats, even Ritalin that is prescribed for bogus diseases like ADD/ADHD is not safe.

by Maria S Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:20 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
maria: have you been listening to the NPR radio programs on the mental health crisis in the US? if so what did you think of them? it was really startling to know that you cannot have a mentally ill adult committed unless they commit a crime. just being violent is insufficient. and the total number of beds available in the US for the mentally ill is appallingly small. i was quite unaware of how much the system had been gutted post world war II.

No, I have not Max.

I have been trying not to listen/watch discussions about this case..just know the basic *factual info.

Where do I even begin about Mental Health Care in the US? There are so many challenges on all levels..as you say, woefully inadequate..starting with the stigma attached to mental conditions-illnesses and seeking help..to getting an appointment with a Mental Health Professional (some times takes months and months) to the related expenses..if one has private medical insurance-most don't cover mental health more than 20-30% of visits and meds (and it's hundreds of $)and for Community Health Center it even takes longer..shortage of professionals, meds etc. It's not more than a 15-20 min appt..and often ends with a wrong diagnosis- and plan of treatment- patients are over medicated like zombies and the withdrawals are terrible.*Patients are well known for lack of compliance-returning for follow-ups and lost in the system.

If it's a crisis..short-term stay clinics (which are very few) and hospitals (through ERs) will not admit patients for more than 24 hours and discharge them (again the medical expenses can run in thousands too- if uncovered)..*And as you say- unless it's a violent incident and a medico-legal case..then a court order is required in most cases. In long-term institutions (few again)..there are so many hurdles, a long process.

We are talking about millions of adults and children. It's truly a shame that in country like the US..it is so messed up..people are so uncaring and think mental illnesses- will 'never affect them or their families'..unless they are personally affected-devastated by it..it has to be community efforts..families need a lot of help.

*On a different note..did you read about the suicide of carnatic singer Nithyashree Mahadevan's husband..I did not know about her or that she was the grand daughter of DK Pattammal..the social media is buzzing about this..with lots of analysis about mental illness (depression), domestic violence and problems in India etc.

by Guest Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:46 am

Maria S wrote:to getting an appointment with a Mental Health Professional (some times takes months and months) to the related expenses..if one has private medical insurance-most don't cover mental health more than 20-30% of visits and meds (and it's hundreds of $)and for Community Health Center it even takes longer..shortage of professionals, meds etc. It's not more than a 15-20 min appt..and often ends with a wrong diagnosis- and plan of treatment- patients are over medicated like zombies and the withdrawals are terrible.*Patients are well known for lack of compliance-returning for follow-ups and lost in the system.

If it's a crisis..short-term stay clinics (which are very few) and hospitals (through ERs) will not admit patients for more than 24 hours and discharge them (again the medical expenses can run in thousands too- if uncovered)..*And as you say- unless it's a violent incident and a medico-legal case..then a court order is required in most cases. In long-term institutions (few again)..there are so many hurdles, a long process.

you are familiar with the dark underbelly of the US mental health system! psych wards are no less worse. they are notorious for cold turkeys and treating withdrawals (they do not recognize withdrawals) with ECTs (which don't work on withdrawals -- only reinstatement of the drug works) by forcing patients to sign on bonds and throwing them out after a week to die on the street. i have read countless such stories. it sucks to be poor and mentally ill in the US.

the elephant in the room - Page 2 598364_10151177738786275_1612165701_n

the elephant in the room - Page 2 598364_10151177738786275_1612165701_n

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:56 am

Maria S wrote:
No, I have not Max.

I have been trying not to listen/watch discussions about this case..just know the basic *factual info.

Where do I even begin about Mental Health Care in the US? There are so many challenges on all levels..as you say, woefully inadequate..starting with the stigma attached to mental conditions-illnesses and seeking help..to getting an appointment with a Mental Health Professional (some times takes months and months) to the related expenses..if one has private medical insurance-most don't cover mental health more than 20-30% of visits and meds (and it's hundreds of $)and for Community Health Center it even takes longer..shortage of professionals, meds etc. It's not more than a 15-20 min appt..and often ends with a wrong diagnosis- and plan of treatment- patients are over medicated like zombies and the withdrawals are terrible.*Patients are well known for lack of compliance-returning for follow-ups and lost in the system.

If it's a crisis..short-term stay clinics (which are very few) and hospitals (through ERs) will not admit patients for more than 24 hours and discharge them (again the medical expenses can run in thousands too- if uncovered)..*And as you say- unless it's a violent incident and a medico-legal case..then a court order is required in most cases. In long-term institutions (few again)..there are so many hurdles, a long process.

We are talking about millions of adults and children. It's truly a shame that in country like the US..it is so messed up..people are so uncaring and think mental illnesses- will 'never affect them or their families'..unless they are personally affected-devastated by it..it has to be community efforts..families need a lot of help.

*On a different note..did you read about the suicide of carnatic singer Nithyashree Mahadevan's husband..I did not know about her or that she was the grand daughter of DK Pattammal..the social media is buzzing about this..with lots of analysis about mental illness (depression), domestic violence and problems in India etc.

why is this so bad in the US? are other developed countries just as bad, or is it just the US? the same NPR program also stated that often cops are the first providers of mental healthcare in many cases. i can understand why. there was a journalist on the show who was raising a son with mental health problems and after he got into some trouble, the policeman told the journalist that he needed to say that his son tried to kill him to get any help from the system at all. the journalist initially resisted the idea because his son had not tried to kill him, but later changed his mind and lied so he could get help. that's just disgusting.

about nithyashree's husband, yes the person who goes by the handle rishi posted that bit of news. it is terrible news. she is pattammal's granddaughter through her daughter i think (and also palakkad mani iyer's granddaughter through his son), and many year's ago i heard her first ever concert at the music academy. she was very rough on the edges then, but a polished musician now. but back to the topic -- who knows what agonies people suffer behind closed doors. she always looked like a perfectly happy woman. and this is right in the middle of the music season in chennai.

by Petrichor Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:03 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:she is pattammal's granddaughter through her daughter i think (and also palakkad mani iyer's granddaughter through his son),

Pattammal through her son, Mani Iyer through his daughter per the newspaper of record.

by confuzzled dude Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:09 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

why is this so bad in the US? are other developed countries just as bad, or is it just the US? the same NPR program also stated that often cops are the first providers of mental healthcare in many cases. i can understand why.

Max , you may want to read up on how mental health service facilities were closed down in the 70s & 80s due to budget cuts. I'm afraid Repubs are trying to do the same with Medicare.

by Jeremiah Mburuburu Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:13 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
bw wrote:in a classic study of
the relationship between war and violence within war-making societies,
Dane Archer uses historical, cross-national data to demonstrate how war
making produces significant and consistent elevations in homicide rates
among ordinary citizens. The legitimation and sanctioning of murder,
atrocities and the targeting of civilians in war causes an increase in
murder at home. I am not trying to suggest that the fact that the
shooter was dressed in camouflage indicates he was directly emulating
Sergeant Bales, but we live in a violent culture that certainly does not
begin and end with violent video games and Quentin Tarantino
movies. Dehumanization of others (real people who bleed, not
computerized images on a screen) creates the ability to do monstrous
things like kill twenty kids, whether it is in an Iraqi prison or a
Colorado movie theater, in an Afghan village or a Connecticut elementary
school. Criminalizing all those labeled as mentally ill or (attempting)
to make guns harder to get will not change that basic universal
precursor to all atrocious acts – that of seeing other people as not
worthy of life.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/12/18/misdiagnosing-the-culture-of-violence/

correlation does not imply causation no matter how compelling it looks. i tried accessing the "classic study" cited in the article, but only got to the first page. i'd really like to know if the study has conclusively shown that war making abroad causes gun homicides to increase at home and how she demonstrated that. i am not saying it isn't possible, but just that the counterpunch article is not convincing. there were some reports that lanza wanted to join the military and had his entire basement decked out in symbols of the american military. so this intrigues me.

and whether the original claim was true or not, madeline albright's response is reprehensible.

the contention is not that war causes people to kill others using military methods, but that it fosters in society the belief that violence is a solution to problems, just as war that is approved by representatives in government, and used repeatedly is a solution to problems worldwide.

by FluteHolder Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:25 am

the contention is not that war causes people to kill others using military methods, but that it fosters in society the belief that violence is a solution to problems, just as war that is approved by representatives in government, and used repeatedly is a solution to problems worldwide.
>>>
But if that was the case, how was it before? For example, when the invaders/british ruled India, how was it in England/India? How about Muslim rule or earlier than that? Was there any mass killings or mental health issues?

But I do believe there is an answer all to this, but I hate to bring that here, but let me say it is a 5 letter word.

by Hellsangel Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:33 am

With all the 3-letter words and 5-letter words floating around, a lot of 4-letter words come to mind now.

by Hellsangel Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:43 am

Maria S wrote:After all the build up..is that it?

"WAR" is quite a bad guess in this case (no matter which expert or essayist says it)..and I don't buy it at all.

*As for Marvin Gaye's songs..he may have be worried about war (anti-war) and felt compassion like everyone..but it does take a genius to see what he was "projecting/implying" for the most part in almost all his songs..he was crying for himself and crying for children who were being abused by their families..wanted to heal himself and save others..

Marvin was a tortured soul from the day he was born to the day he was killed by his own father..there was too much domestic violence in his home. His father was physically and emotionally abusive- until the day he killed him..if anything the central terrorizing person was his DAD..in his case, war perhaps had very little to his lyrics.

Obviously..from the beginning of time..many tribes/states/countries have been-perpertually in a state of war..and there is no question its causes devastating misery/psycholocial problems which manifests itself in different ways as societal problems..but, not mindlessly killing one's "own mother" and randomly strangers- including small children within a matter of hours" *(which makes this quite unique picking of victims- with deep domestic/family violence roots, imo).

I would stick to MGU (in my previous comments).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Gaye

On June 10, 1970, Gaye returned to the Hitsville U.S.A. studios where he recorded his new composition, "What's Going On", inspired by an idea from Renaldo "Obie" Benson of the Four Tops after he witnessed an act of police brutality at an anti-war rally in Berkeley.[60] Gaye later played the song to Berry Gordy, who refused to release it due mainly to its jazz-oriented sound, which Gordy labeled "outdated" and thought the song was "too political" for radio at the time.[61][62] Gaye refused to record unless Motown released the song.[62]

by confuzzled dude Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:51 am

Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:
the contention is not that war causes people to kill others using
military methods, but that it fosters in society the belief that
violence is a solution to problems, just as war that is approved by
representatives in government, and used repeatedly is a solution to
problems worldwide.

Aren't we going in circles here! what fosters warmongering mentality, 2nd amendment?

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:14 pm

atcg wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:she is pattammal's granddaughter through her daughter i think (and also palakkad mani iyer's granddaughter through his son),

Pattammal through her son, Mani Iyer through his daughter per the newspaper of record.

i stand corrected then. and i also note my oversight in forming the plural of year (years, not year's).

by nevada Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:23 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

why is this so bad in the US? are other developed countries just as bad, or is it just the US? the same NPR program also stated that often cops are the first providers of mental healthcare in many cases. i can understand why.

Max , you may want to read up on how mental health service facilities were closed down in the 70s & 80s due to budget cuts. I'm afraid Repubs are trying to do the same with Medicare.

I think it is a cultural thing. Only the strong make it and the weak are cast aside and trampled upon. In schools, kids that are different - due to skin color, physical frailty, mental issues, etc are treated like untouchables and bullied. This cannot be good for their self esteem and well being.

by Guest Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:46 pm

Elephant dikh nahi raha, sorry.

by Rishi Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:12 pm

Israelis have been at war with Arabs for the past sixty years. I have not heard of any Jew in Israel having gone around shooting his or her own people.

by Propagandhi711 Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:12 pm

the elephant has left the room. he left a big pile of dung and onlookers sniffing the air going, hmm he's fond of peanuts, no wait, do I detect a whiff of grass etc etc.

by Idéfix Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:24 pm

Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:the contention is not that war causes people to kill others using military methods, but that it fosters in society the belief that violence is a solution to problems, just as war that is approved by representatives in government, and used repeatedly is a solution to problems worldwide.

The US as a militarist player in worldwide problems is a comparatively recent phenomenon in its long history. Its gun culture -- including the second amendment -- predates its wars in faraway lands. If anything, it can be argued that the American predilection to routinely attack ill-equipped foreign countries comes from its frontier gun culture and its militarist expansion on this continent at the expense of ill-equipped Native Americans.

by Propagandhi711 Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:47 pm

panini press wrote:
Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:the contention is not that war causes people to kill others using military methods, but that it fosters in society the belief that violence is a solution to problems, just as war that is approved by representatives in government, and used repeatedly is a solution to problems worldwide.
The US as a militarist player in worldwide problems is a comparatively recent phenomenon in its long history. Its gun culture -- including the second amendment -- predates its wars in faraway lands. If anything, it can be argued that the American predilection to routinely attack ill-equipped foreign countries comes from its frontier gun culture and its militarist expansion on this continent at the expense of ill-equipped Native Americans.

tut tut, it's only decent to make sure your enemies are fully equipped before attacking them. rules of engagements are not followed in america!

by Idéfix Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:59 pm

Propagandhi711 wrote:
panini press wrote:
Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:the contention is not that war causes people to kill others using military methods, but that it fosters in society the belief that violence is a solution to problems, just as war that is approved by representatives in government, and used repeatedly is a solution to problems worldwide.
The US as a militarist player in worldwide problems is a comparatively recent phenomenon in its long history. Its gun culture -- including the second amendment -- predates its wars in faraway lands. If anything, it can be argued that the American predilection to routinely attack ill-equipped foreign countries comes from its frontier gun culture and its militarist expansion on this continent at the expense of ill-equipped Native Americans.

tut tut, it's only decent to make sure your enemies are fully equipped before attacking them. rules of engagements are not followed in america!

The decent thing would be to not spend more than the combined military budgets of the next twenty largest military spenders -- and then go picking targets so the munitions you buy with that money are used up so you can buy more with next year's megabudget. The US accounts for less than 25% of world GDP, but spends more than 40% of the world's military budget.

by Propagandhi711 Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:23 pm

panini press wrote:
Propagandhi711 wrote:
panini press wrote:
Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:the contention is not that war causes people to kill others using military methods, but that it fosters in society the belief that violence is a solution to problems, just as war that is approved by representatives in government, and used repeatedly is a solution to problems worldwide.
The US as a militarist player in worldwide problems is a comparatively recent phenomenon in its long history. Its gun culture -- including the second amendment -- predates its wars in faraway lands. If anything, it can be argued that the American predilection to routinely attack ill-equipped foreign countries comes from its frontier gun culture and its militarist expansion on this continent at the expense of ill-equipped Native Americans.

tut tut, it's only decent to make sure your enemies are fully equipped before attacking them. rules of engagements are not followed in america!
The decent thing would be to not spend more than the combined military budgets of the next twenty largest military spenders -- and then go picking targets so the munitions you buy with that money are used up so you can buy more with next year's megabudget. The US accounts for less than 25% of world GDP, but spends more than 40% of the world's military budget.

decent? I suppose it must be very decent knowing any two of your former enemies can gang up and outclass you. must help you knowing there's some balance in the world.

that thing obama's doing with drones, killing ppl deemed enemies without giving them a chance to shoot back at live beings? I suppose you're seething at the indecent injustice of that. the decent thing to do would be to make the tech open source, help them build a revision 1, allow beta testing to iron out kinks and then go at it mano-e-mano, right?

PPS: nice speech on 'using up munitions', did you dust that off from 1970s archives of the berkeley manifesto?

by Idéfix Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:36 pm

Propagandhi711 wrote:I suppose it must be very decent knowing any two of your former enemies can gang up and outclass you.

You are ignoring the numbers. Even if all the next 20 largest spenders gang up against you -- mind you, many of those 20 are NATO members and very close allies -- they would still not be spending as much as the US does.

Obama's drone program is part of the same problem.

by Hellsangel Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:26 pm

by confuzzled dude Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:26 pm

Propagandhi711 wrote:I suppose it must be very decent knowing any two of your former enemies can gang up and outclass you.

Exactly, a very valid reason to hoard guns, next door neighbors wont have a chance even if they ganged up on you.

by pravalika nanda Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:52 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Maria S wrote:After all the build up..is that it?

"WAR" is quite a bad guess in this case (no matter which expert or essayist says it)..and I don't buy it at all.

*As for Marvin Gaye's songs..he may have be worried about war (anti-war) and felt compassion like everyone..but it does take a genius to see what he was "projecting/implying" for the most part in almost all his songs..he was crying for himself and crying for children who were being abused by their families..wanted to heal himself and save others..

Marvin was a tortured soul from the day he was born to the day he was killed by his own father..there was too much domestic violence in his home. His father was physically and emotionally abusive- until the day he killed him..if anything the central terrorizing person was his DAD..in his case, war perhaps had very little to his lyrics.

Obviously..from the beginning of time..many tribes/states/countries have been-perpertually in a state of war..and there is no question its causes devastating misery/psycholocial problems which manifests itself in different ways as societal problems..but, not mindlessly killing one's "own mother" and randomly strangers- including small children within a matter of hours" *(which makes this quite unique picking of victims- with deep domestic/family violence roots, imo).

I would stick to MGU (in my previous comments).

maria: have you been listening to the NPR radio programs on the mental health crisis in the US? if so what did you think of them? it was really startling to know that you cannot have a mentally ill adult committed unless they commit a crime. just being violent is insufficient. and the total number of beds available in the US for the mentally ill is appallingly small. i was quite unaware of how much the system had been gutted post world war II.

**i'm surprised to hear you talk about the country's mental health crisis. yes, AL appears to have some psych issues but as far as i know none of this has been proven, it's pure speculation on our part. it may very well be that he is a loner, lots of people are, but that he was just someone who grew up without any sympathy for his fellow man. he may have just been a sane, functional, ruthless teen who had access to a lot of guns. the vast majority of people with mental illnesses live in a haze of medication without causing this kind of mayhem. i think that their is a subculture of men that thrive on violence and adam lanza is one of them. his interest in the military is one sign of this. soldiers kills people and we celebrate them for it.

by Guest Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:04 pm

pravalika nanda wrote:the vast majority of people with mental illnesses live in a haze of medication without causing this kind of mayhem.

true. such people are more likely to engage in self-harm than kill others.

by pravalika nanda Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:38 pm

[quote="pravalika nanda"]

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Maria S wrote:After all the build up..is that it?

"WAR" is quite a bad guess in this case (no matter which expert or essayist says it)..and I don't buy it at all.

*As for Marvin Gaye's songs..he may have be worried about war (anti-war) and felt compassion like everyone..but it does take a genius to see what he was "projecting/implying" for the most part in almost all his songs..he was crying for himself and crying for children who were being abused by their families..wanted to heal himself and save others..

Marvin was a tortured soul from the day he was born to the day he was killed by his own father..there was too much domestic violence in his home. His father was physically and emotionally abusive- until the day he killed him..if anything the central terrorizing person was his DAD..in his case, war perhaps had very little to his lyrics.

Obviously..from the beginning of time..many tribes/states/countries have been-perpertually in a state of war..and there is no question its causes devastating misery/psycholocial problems which manifests itself in different ways as societal problems..but, not mindlessly killing one's "own mother" and randomly strangers- including small children within a matter of hours" *(which makes this quite unique picking of victims- with deep domestic/family violence roots, imo).

I would stick to MGU (in my previous comments).

maria: have you been listening to the NPR radio programs on the mental health crisis in the US? if so what did you think of them? it was really startling to know that you cannot have a mentally ill adult committed unless they commit a crime. just being violent is insufficient. and the total number of beds available in the US for the mentally ill is appallingly small. i was quite unaware of how much the system had been gutted post world war II.

**i'm surprised to hear you talk about the country's mental health crisis. yes, AL appears to have some psych issues but as far as i know none of this has been proven, it's pure speculation on our part. it may very well be that he is a loner, lots of people are, but also that he was someone who grew up without any sympathy for his fellow man. he may have just been a sane, functional, ruthless teen who had access to a lot of guns. the vast majority of people with mental illnesses live in a haze of medication without causing this kind of mayhem. i think that there is a subculture of men that thrive on violence and adam lanza is one of them. his interest in the military is one sign of this.

**i think it is phony to pretend that this has anything to do with mental instability, it obstructs any honest discussion on who we are as a culture. for example, i'm not impressed with this, yes, it's sad, but after watching so much violence on tv, i expect this kind of thing. the only purely disgusting and unexpected thing that happened wrt this news item is obama slobbering and bawling and throwing up phlegm in front of the videocamera. what a freakin loser. doesn't he get reports on how many people he kills daily? does he think people want to kiss him and hug him if he cries about 20 kids dying in america?

**elsewhere you were shocked that mentally ill people had to commit a crime in order to be committed to an institution. mentally ill people are people, they have rights and freedoms like everyone else. if we wait for sane people to commit a crime before incarcerating them, why should the law be different for the emotionally ill?

**kindly do not allow maria to distract you with concert gossip when dealing with a topic as grave and important as this.

by bw Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:01 am

[quote="pravalika nanda"]

pravalika nanda wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Maria S wrote:After all the build up..is that it?

"WAR" is quite a bad guess in this case (no matter which expert or essayist says it)..and I don't buy it at all.

*As for Marvin Gaye's songs..he may have be worried about war (anti-war) and felt compassion like everyone..but it does take a genius to see what he was "projecting/implying" for the most part in almost all his songs..he was crying for himself and crying for children who were being abused by their families..wanted to heal himself and save others..

Marvin was a tortured soul from the day he was born to the day he was killed by his own father..there was too much domestic violence in his home. His father was physically and emotionally abusive- until the day he killed him..if anything the central terrorizing person was his DAD..in his case, war perhaps had very little to his lyrics.

Obviously..from the beginning of time..many tribes/states/countries have been-perpertually in a state of war..and there is no question its causes devastating misery/psycholocial problems which manifests itself in different ways as societal problems..but, not mindlessly killing one's "own mother" and randomly strangers- including small children within a matter of hours" *(which makes this quite unique picking of victims- with deep domestic/family violence roots, imo).

I would stick to MGU (in my previous comments).

maria: have you been listening to the NPR radio programs on the mental health crisis in the US? if so what did you think of them? it was really startling to know that you cannot have a mentally ill adult committed unless they commit a crime. just being violent is insufficient. and the total number of beds available in the US for the mentally ill is appallingly small. i was quite unaware of how much the system had been gutted post world war II.

**i'm surprised to hear you talk about the country's mental health crisis. yes, AL appears to have some psych issues but as far as i know none of this has been proven, it's pure speculation on our part. it may very well be that he is a loner, lots of people are, but also that he was someone who grew up without any sympathy for his fellow man. he may have just been a sane, functional, ruthless teen who had access to a lot of guns. the vast majority of people with mental illnesses live in a haze of medication without causing this kind of mayhem. i think that there is a subculture of men that thrive on violence and adam lanza is one of them. his interest in the military is one sign of this.

**i think it is phony to pretend that this has anything to do with mental instability, it obstructs any honest discussion on who we are as a culture. for example, i'm not impressed with this, yes, it's sad, but after watching so much violence on tv, i expect this kind of thing. the only purely disgusting and unexpected thing that happened wrt this news item is obama slobbering and bawling and throwing up phlegm in front of the videocamera. what a freakin loser. doesn't he get reports on how many people he kills daily? does he think people want to kiss him and hug him if he cries about 20 kids dying in america?

**elsewhere you were shocked that mentally ill people had to commit a crime in order to be committed to an institution. mentally ill people are people, they have rights and freedoms like everyone else. if we wait for sane people to commit a crime before incarcerating them, why should the law be different for the emotionally ill?

**kindly do not allow maria to distract you with concert gossip when dealing with a topic as grave and important as this.

+1

very good points - shall add to this some time later.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:40 am

pravalika nanda wrote:

**i'm surprised to hear you talk about the country's mental health crisis. yes, AL appears to have some psych issues but as far as i know none of this has been proven, it's pure speculation on our part. it may very well be that he is a loner, lots of people are, but also that he was someone who grew up without any sympathy for his fellow man. he may have just been a sane, functional, ruthless teen who had access to a lot of guns. the vast majority of people with mental illnesses live in a haze of medication without causing this kind of mayhem. i think that there is a subculture of men that thrive on violence and adam lanza is one of them. his interest in the military is one sign of this.

**i think it is phony to pretend that this has anything to do with mental instability, it obstructs any honest discussion on who we are as a culture. for example, i'm not impressed with this, yes, it's sad, but after watching so much violence on tv, i expect this kind of thing. the only purely disgusting and unexpected thing that happened wrt this news item is obama slobbering and bawling and throwing up phlegm in front of the videocamera. what a freakin loser. doesn't he get reports on how many people he kills daily? does he think people want to kiss him and hug him if he cries about 20 kids dying in america?

**elsewhere you were shocked that mentally ill people had to commit a crime in order to be committed to an institution. mentally ill people are people, they have rights and freedoms like everyone else. if we wait for sane people to commit a crime before incarcerating them, why should the law be different for the emotionally ill?

**kindly do not allow maria to distract you with concert gossip when dealing with a topic as grave and important as this.

your point about AL is fair enough. but do you really think committing a person to a mental health institution is the same as incarceration? do you think hospitalization for an illness is the same as incarceration? i don't think you understood the point that the journalist on the NPR program who had the mentally ill son was making. he was not getting any help from the system whatsoever. insurance wouldn't pay for it; unless he was willing to say that his son had not only turned violent, but had tried to kill him. that to me definitely sounds like a broken system. we do have a mental health crisis.

it's a different matter that the republicans are seizing this as the problem, because they want to do precisely nothing about gun control. i suppose they like their guns more than the healthcare dollars they'd rather not spend.

one last point. i didn't say all mentally ill people are violent. but some of them do turn violent; violent towards others and violent towards themselves. and those who do, do need to be institutionalized.

listen to it yourself: http://onpoint.wbur.org/2012/12/18/mental-health

by Petrichor Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:42 am

Fragmented thoughts on the debate:

Disclaimer on Adam Lanza - Not sure if he was mentally ill at all: CHECK
Quickness to jump to conclusion and divert from "real" issues: CHECK
Sophisticated and educated sounding "quack" science doctors (also called psychs) who want thresholds, protocols, and their own junkets to Hawaii: CHECK
Helpless pandering to miracle cures and general service to Pharma industry: CHECK
Absolutely no focus on Nancy Lanza, her 'vacation' in a NH luxury resort for 2 days alone and her love for guns using generous alimony: CHECK
No attention to general selfishness and inability of close caregivers to care for the mentally ill: CHECK
Overarching theme of "committing" on a hair-trigger, medicating and taking the mentally ill off the backs of caregivers so they can go on a date once in a while: CHECK
Ever increasing size of the DSM tome to create a bigger industry out of mental health: CHECK
Hiding the fact that the whole country runs on conditional love with $$$ signs attached: CHECK

In short, "You're pretty much on your own, buddy!"

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:58 am

atcg wrote:
Overarching theme of "committing" on a hair-trigger......:CHECK

wrong. i just found out how difficult it is for mental health patients and their families to get any help at all, let alone getting them committed which is near impossible. please read the first chapter of pete earley's book that i gave a link to and listen to tom ashbrook's show on the issue. it is really heart breaking.

by confuzzled dude Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:39 pm

pravalika nanda wrote: the only purely disgusting and unexpected thing that happened wrt this news item is obama slobbering and bawling and throwing up phlegm in front of the videocamera. what a freakin loser. doesn't he get reports on how many people he kills daily? does he think people want to kiss him and hug him if he cries about 20 kids dying in america?

Nandamma garu, Your argument is as flawed as it can get. This dude
intentionally targeted little kids, he knew exactly what he was up to. OTOH Obama did not start the war, if anything, you should be disgusted with [whole] America for having suffered from temporary insanity right after 9/11.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:25 am

mburuburu and bw's take on this reminded me of a talk i heard on youtube some time ago by steven pinker who made a reference to the point made by australian psychologist peter singer, namely, that evolution has given us a sense of empathy for our fellow humans, but only to a narrow circle of friends and family. the rest we feel free to treat as sub-human and even inflict violence on them. in this sense i suppose we justify the killing of children in afghanistan and iraq, but the newtown tragedies strike us as obscene. point taken.

the optimistic view (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ramBFRt1Uzk) is that this is an ever expanding circle.

by bw Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:27 am

confuzzled dude wrote:
pravalika nanda wrote: the only purely disgusting and unexpected thing that happened wrt this news item is obama slobbering and bawling and throwing up phlegm in front of the videocamera. what a freakin loser. doesn't he get reports on how many people he kills daily? does he think people want to kiss him and hug him if he cries about 20 kids dying in america?

Nandamma garu, Your argument is as flawed as it can get. This dude
intentionally targeted little kids, he knew exactly what he was up to. OTOH Obama did not start the war, if anything, you should be disgusted with [whole] America for having suffered from temporary insanity right after 9/11.

Are you saying that the "compassionate, saintly, one-of-a-kind" president has no accountability or responsibility for this just because he didn't take a gun and shoot at them directly?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/17/us-killings-tragedies-pakistan-bug-splats
The study reports that children scream in terror when they hear the
sound of a drone. A local psychologist says that their fear and the
horrors they witness is causing permanent mental scarring. Children
wounded in drone attacks told the researchers that they are too
traumatised to go back to school and have abandoned hopes of the careers
they might have had. Their dreams as well as their bodies have been
broken.
Obama does not kill children deliberately. But their
deaths are an inevitable outcome of the way his drones are deployed. We
don't know what emotional effect these deaths might have on him, as
neither he nor his officials will discuss the matter: almost everything
to do with the CIA's extrajudicial killings in Pakistan is kept secret.
But you get the impression that no one in the administration is losing
much sleep over it.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:56 am

bw: thanks. this is a point that needs to be made no matter how difficult it is for american citizens on this board to swallow. i haven't seen the new york times or the washington post make this point. it may seem opportunistic to some, but the parents' pain is identical.

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