Vidya Bagchi wrote:Calm and peace. That's all I go to temples for. No other belief matters at that point for me.

Maria S wrote:Sure atcg..there is that too. But, to me it's more than conditioning of the mind.

I like Jim Carrey, when he is not outrageously silly- which he is most of the time! But, he is so good/shines in serious roles..like Nagesh used to be.

atcg wrote:I have come to see religion, religious practices and rituals as means towards achieving a certain mental state - i.e., a certain state of detached, observer like meditative state.

Maria S wrote:
Is that how you see "therapists"..like believers..every single professional is different..and it could be only a 'very small part' of who they are-what they do!

You know..it's multidisciplinary-multispecialities everywhere, and it's becoming the norm. Resumes are interesting combos these days! *Saamiyaars* certainly know!

atcg wrote:[
Actually I should have explained a bit more -

Therapists spend most of their waking hours (being charitable here) on deriving "meaning" from the stories they hear. I saw your signature line as signifying a certain stance by the therapist to stay detached and derive "meaning" (or "if it was meant...) it will find a way to be expressed in the stories they hear from their clients.

ps. nothing wrong in therapists being believers

Maria S wrote:That's an interesting interpretation.
Thought I must be trendy and and join the cool crowd here..and have some line under my sig! That's all, and I believe it.

Maria S wrote:

atcg wrote:[
Actually I should have explained a bit more -

Therapists spend most of their waking hours (being charitable here) on deriving "meaning" from the stories they hear. I saw your signature line as signifying a certain stance by the therapist to stay detached and derive "meaning" (or "if it was meant...) it will find a way to be expressed in the stories they hear from their clients.

ps. nothing wrong in therapists being believers

Appreciate you paying attention to that sig.line! That's an interesting interpretation. Nothing wrong in Doctors being believers, most of my colleagues are. Many are well known..and not just doctors..like Dr. Sirkali Sivachidambaram and some are Revs and Rabbis..of course..*many in the US are Senators..Govs..you name it!
Thought I must be trendy and and join the cool crowd here..and have some line under my sig! That's all, and I believe it.

Vidya Bagchi wrote:Calm and peace. That's all I go to temples for. No other belief matters at that point for me.

Maria S wrote:*From my experiences/perspective:

Having been around- witnessed the beginning of life and end of life a whole lot- in my lifetime, it's quite awesome to imagine/know there is "something" much greater than human awesomeness.

*Do have moments of doubt, frustration and fears/anxiety..but, overcome them and feel liberated..when I have done everything in my human power and accept- "what was meant to be"...and try to let go.

Don't have to listen to anything - anyone else..Pope, Bishop, Pastor, Priest, Brother or Sister says/interprets my "faith-oriented" teachings (like an occasional good sermon/interpretation of the scriptures!). But, I am very capable of interpreting them for myself/gain some understanding. *Some times it leads to the interpretation (sorting out allegory, symbolism)- "I don't know", if it it is, it is what it is.

Like the fellowship with other non-atheists/like some rituals too..some individuals are wise, funny and..their "work" to help others unselfishly..quietly inspires me.

Feel very calm and at peace when I pray- it's physically and emotionally greatly helpful on a human level/my human conditioning.

atcg wrote:I think the reasons why doctors are believers, mostly has to do with their keen sense of their own limitations coupled with an imprecise understanding of how human body works - lot more of it is conjecture than in harder physical sciences.

Maria S wrote:*From my experiences/perspective:

Having been around- witnessed the beginning of life and end of life a whole lot- in my lifetime, it's quite awesome to imagine/know there is "something" much greater than human awesomeness.


Good point.

Emotional well being IS personal well being. Theists or atheists, people forget this important aspect. No analytical brain will be enough to sustain a person through life. Behind every analytical decision, there is a healthy, emotional involvement. Even a dry rationalist follows certain beliefs. Life without beliefs is barren and can even be dangerous to health!

Differences between common people lie in the balance between emotional and analytical aspects. Extremes on either side usually lead to problems. Rationalists who look at music as a useless emotive aspect of life and theists who shun music except for God miss the important contribution of the emotional aspect.

In Indian thinking, hridayam (the heart - the emotional aspect) and manas (the analytical aspect) refer to the mind.

Regards.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i don't like loud and noisy people on either side of the belief/non-belief issue. i only get upset with people who believe, when they start pushing their agenda into the public sphere and into legislation that affects everyone. otherwise i see no reason to get in their faces dawkins style.

southindian wrote:
I thought, everyone should be fine as long as things don't effect people's private lives.
Public sphere is... public.. Right?
Freedom or speech, expression and all that hoopla ...people speak of day and night here.

atcg wrote:I have come to see religion, religious practices and rituals as means towards achieving a certain mental state - i.e., a certain state of detached, observer like meditative state. I see all religion as a mind-training regimen.

atcg wrote:Once I have this perspective, I am able to appreciate and even respect the 'believers' way of using their faith to calm themselves, or prepare themselves for action.

southindian wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i don't like loud and noisy people on either side of the belief/non-belief issue. i only get upset with people who believe, when they start pushing their agenda into the public sphere and into legislation that affects everyone. otherwise i see no reason to get in their faces dawkins style.

I thought, everyone should be fine as long as things don't effect people's private lives.
Public sphere is... public.. Right?
Freedom or speech, expression and all that hoopla ...people speak of day and night here.

Maria S wrote:Having been around- witnessed the beginning of life and end of life a whole lot- in my lifetime, it's quite awesome to imagine/know there is "something" much greater than human awesomeness.

Maria S wrote:*Some times it leads to the interpretation (sorting out allegory, symbolism)- "I don't know", if it it is, it is what it is.

Maria S wrote:Like the fellowship with other non-atheists/like some rituals too..some individuals are wise, funny and..their "work" to help others unselfishly..quietly inspires me.

Maria S wrote:Feel very calm and at peace when I pray- it's physically and emotionally greatly helpful on a human level/my human conditioning.

panini press wrote:

atcg wrote:I have come to see religion, religious practices and rituals as means towards achieving a certain mental state - i.e., a certain state of detached, observer like meditative state. I see all religion as a mind-training regimen.

At its best, that is what religion is. In my opinion, a small minority of people who profess faith in a religion use those rituals as a means to achieving that detached, observer-like meditative state you speak of. For the vast majority, it is, as Russell says, more about addressing ones fears. And for a small minority on the other side of the spectrum, it is a political tool. Because the majority are in it driven by fear, this vocal minority can use the majority to its political ends.
.

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:

Maria S wrote:*From my experiences/perspective:

Having been around- witnessed the beginning of life and end of life a whole lot- in my lifetime, it's quite awesome to imagine/know there is "something" much greater than human awesomeness.

*Do have moments of doubt, frustration and fears/anxiety..but, overcome them and feel liberated..when I have done everything in my human power and accept- "what was meant to be"...and try to let go.

Don't have to listen to anything - anyone else..Pope, Bishop, Pastor, Priest, Brother or Sister says/interprets my "faith-oriented" teachings (like an occasional good sermon/interpretation of the scriptures!). But, I am very capable of interpreting them for myself/gain some understanding. *Some times it leads to the interpretation (sorting out allegory, symbolism)- "I don't know", if it it is, it is what it is.

Like the fellowship with other non-atheists/like some rituals too..some individuals are wise, funny and..their "work" to help others unselfishly..quietly inspires me.

Feel very calm and at peace when I pray- it's physically and emotionally greatly helpful on a human level/my human conditioning.

Good point.

Emotional well being IS personal well being. Theists or atheists, people forget this important aspect. No analytical brain will be enough to sustain a person through life. Behind every analytical decision, there is a healthy, emotional involvement. Even a dry rationalist follows certain beliefs. Life without beliefs is barren and can even be dangerous to health!

Differences between common people lie in the balance between emotional and analytical aspects. Extremes on either side usually lead to problems. Rationalists who look at music as a useless emotive aspect of life and theists who shun music except for God miss the important contribution of the emotional aspect.

In Indian thinking, hridayam (the heart - the emotional aspect) and manas (the analytical aspect) refer to the mind.

Regards.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

southindian wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i don't like loud and noisy people on either side of the belief/non-belief issue. i only get upset with people who believe, when they start pushing their agenda into the public sphere and into legislation that affects everyone. otherwise i see no reason to get in their faces dawkins style.

I thought, everyone should be fine as long as things don't effect people's private lives.
Public sphere is... public.. Right?
Freedom or speech, expression and all that hoopla ...people speak of day and night here.

please don't be so sensitive. nobody is asking anyone to shut up. i think there should be a godwin's law for freedom of speech too.

panini press wrote:

Maria S wrote:Having been around- witnessed the beginning of life and end of life a whole lot- in my lifetime, it's quite awesome to imagine/know there is "something" much greater than human awesomeness.

There is. From my perspective, it is quite awesome to imagine the odds of all of us being here in this universe. A series of fantastically unlikely events occurred to produce life, and then for that life to acquire an awareness of itself -- that is beautiful and awe-inspiring beyond belief.

Maria S wrote:*Some times it leads to the interpretation (sorting out allegory, symbolism)- "I don't know", if it it is, it is what it is.

On my fundamental questions, "I don't know" is the atheist's most appropriate answer. Acknowledging the limits of one's knowledge IMO takes courage, and go be a sincere atheist, one has to be able to do that. I find more appeal in being able to say "I don't know" than to advance an answer and say, "I just believe this to be true, so it must be true."

Maria S wrote:Like the fellowship with other non-atheists/like some rituals too..some individuals are wise, funny and..their "work" to help others unselfishly..quietly inspires me.

Yes, the social and cultural aspect of religion is more powerful that commonly acknowledged in intellectual debates about religion.

Maria S wrote:Feel very calm and at peace when I pray- it's physically and emotionally greatly helpful on a human level/my human conditioning.

As I said elsewhere, I think that is religion at its best.

Maria S wrote:Who appointed Godwin..the Deity of Freedom of Speech..
Sorry, not his follower..am not abiding by his laws!

panini press wrote:

atcg wrote:I have come to see religion, religious practices and rituals as means towards achieving a certain mental state - i.e., a certain state of detached, observer like meditative state. I see all religion as a mind-training regimen.

At its best, that is what religion is. In my opinion, a small minority of people who profess faith in a religion use those rituals as a means to achieving that detached, observer-like meditative state you speak of. For the vast majority, it is, as Russell says, more about addressing ones fears. And for a small minority on the other side of the spectrum, it is a political tool. Because the majority are in it driven by fear, this vocal minority can use the majority to its political ends.

atcg wrote:Once I have this perspective, I am able to appreciate and even respect the 'believers' way of using their faith to calm themselves, or prepare themselves for action.

Yes, I have a lot of respect for people who use their faith to calm themselves and help them through tough choices.

Maria S wrote:Nope..don't know- don't want to know..even if I know- will not make any difference to me.
Thanks for asking.

Godwin's law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies or Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies^[1][2]) is an argument made by Mike Godwin in 1990^[2] that has become an Internet adage. It states: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."^[2][3] In other words, Godwin observed that, given enough time, in any online discussion—regardless of topic or scope—someone inevitably makes a comparison to Hitler or the Nazis.

Maria S wrote:Ok.
Why the "anyway".

don't want to know..even if I know- will not make any difference to me.

Sasthi wrote:For the one and only reason: I couldn't figure out which came first...the egg or the hen.

panini press wrote:

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:

Maria S wrote:*From my experiences/perspective:

Having been around- witnessed the beginning of life and end of life a whole lot- in my lifetime, it's quite awesome to imagine/know there is "something" much greater than human awesomeness.

*Do have moments of doubt, frustration and fears/anxiety..but, overcome them and feel liberated..when I have done everything in my human power and accept- "what was meant to be"...and try to let go.

Don't have to listen to anything - anyone else..Pope, Bishop, Pastor, Priest, Brother or Sister says/interprets my "faith-oriented" teachings (like an occasional good sermon/interpretation of the scriptures!). But, I am very capable of interpreting them for myself/gain some understanding. *Some times it leads to the interpretation (sorting out allegory, symbolism)- "I don't know", if it it is, it is what it is.

Like the fellowship with other non-atheists/like some rituals too..some individuals are wise, funny and..their "work" to help others unselfishly..quietly inspires me.

Feel very calm and at peace when I pray- it's physically and emotionally greatly helpful on a human level/my human conditioning.

Good point.

Emotional well being IS personal well being. Theists or atheists, people forget this important aspect. No analytical brain will be enough to sustain a person through life. Behind every analytical decision, there is a healthy, emotional involvement. Even a dry rationalist follows certain beliefs. Life without beliefs is barren and can even be dangerous to health!

Differences between common people lie in the balance between emotional and analytical aspects. Extremes on either side usually lead to problems. Rationalists who look at music as a useless emotive aspect of life and theists who shun music except for God miss the important contribution of the emotional aspect.

In Indian thinking, hridayam (the heart - the emotional aspect) and manas (the analytical aspect) refer to the mind.

Regards.

Guruvu-gaaru, what about theists who paint all atheists as one-dimensional, emotionless beings? Are they missing any part of the picture?

All the atheists I know well fully recognize the "emotional aspect" as you called it.

atcg wrote:Not exactly arguing here, but why do you feel the vast majority is focused on addressing their fears - what kind of fears do you speak of? Fear of uncertainty, Fear of death, Fear of the Other ??

Most people around me seem to be well-off in material sense and many of them seem anxious only about their social and psychological/emotional contexts. In a flippant way, they seem to have the "good problems to have" syndrome. Their worries are about their relationships, the well-being of their close family members etc. I wouldn't necessarily classify them as being afraid. To most of them, it is buffet religion and they partake the elements that will address their anxieties. Is this what you meant by "fears"?

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:

panini press wrote:

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:

Maria S wrote:*From my experiences/perspective:

Having been around- witnessed the beginning of life and end of life a whole lot- in my lifetime, it's quite awesome to imagine/know there is "something" much greater than human awesomeness.

*Do have moments of doubt, frustration and fears/anxiety..but, overcome them and feel liberated..when I have done everything in my human power and accept- "what was meant to be"...and try to let go.

Don't have to listen to anything - anyone else..Pope, Bishop, Pastor, Priest, Brother or Sister says/interprets my "faith-oriented" teachings (like an occasional good sermon/interpretation of the scriptures!). But, I am very capable of interpreting them for myself/gain some understanding. *Some times it leads to the interpretation (sorting out allegory, symbolism)- "I don't know", if it it is, it is what it is.

Like the fellowship with other non-atheists/like some rituals too..some individuals are wise, funny and..their "work" to help others unselfishly..quietly inspires me.

Feel very calm and at peace when I pray- it's physically and emotionally greatly helpful on a human level/my human conditioning.

Good point.

Emotional well being IS personal well being. Theists or atheists, people forget this important aspect. No analytical brain will be enough to sustain a person through life. Behind every analytical decision, there is a healthy, emotional involvement. Even a dry rationalist follows certain beliefs. Life without beliefs is barren and can even be dangerous to health!

Differences between common people lie in the balance between emotional and analytical aspects. Extremes on either side usually lead to problems. Rationalists who look at music as a useless emotive aspect of life and theists who shun music except for God miss the important contribution of the emotional aspect.

In Indian thinking, hridayam (the heart - the emotional aspect) and manas (the analytical aspect) refer to the mind.

Regards.

Guruvu-gaaru, what about theists who paint all atheists as one-dimensional, emotionless beings? Are they missing any part of the picture?

All the atheists I know well fully recognize the "emotional aspect" as you called it.

And I have seen self-professed atheists becoming emotional when the other side uses the same technique they use against theists. Confrontation of this kind (from theists or atheists) is actually belief in action (on both sides) and Sankara would say, this is reflective of a fanatic attachment to "vasanas". Ashis Nandy would say, the difference between the CH "discussion" and that in my village street fight is - the "sophistication" that CHers use to sugar coat their biases. Just look at this thread and you will see one or two very sophisticated "street fighters".

panini press wrote:

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:

panini press wrote:

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:

Maria S wrote:*From my experiences/perspective:

Having been around- witnessed the beginning of life and end of life a whole lot- in my lifetime, it's quite awesome to imagine/know there is "something" much greater than human awesomeness.

*Do have moments of doubt, frustration and fears/anxiety..but, overcome them and feel liberated..when I have done everything in my human power and accept- "what was meant to be"...and try to let go.

Don't have to listen to anything - anyone else..Pope, Bishop, Pastor, Priest, Brother or Sister says/interprets my "faith-oriented" teachings (like an occasional good sermon/interpretation of the scriptures!). But, I am very capable of interpreting them for myself/gain some understanding. *Some times it leads to the interpretation (sorting out allegory, symbolism)- "I don't know", if it it is, it is what it is.

Like the fellowship with other non-atheists/like some rituals too..some individuals are wise, funny and..their "work" to help others unselfishly..quietly inspires me.

Feel very calm and at peace when I pray- it's physically and emotionally greatly helpful on a human level/my human conditioning.

Good point.

Emotional well being IS personal well being. Theists or atheists, people forget this important aspect. No analytical brain will be enough to sustain a person through life. Behind every analytical decision, there is a healthy, emotional involvement. Even a dry rationalist follows certain beliefs. Life without beliefs is barren and can even be dangerous to health!

Differences between common people lie in the balance between emotional and analytical aspects. Extremes on either side usually lead to problems. Rationalists who look at music as a useless emotive aspect of life and theists who shun music except for God miss the important contribution of the emotional aspect.

In Indian thinking, hridayam (the heart - the emotional aspect) and manas (the analytical aspect) refer to the mind.

Regards.

Guruvu-gaaru, what about theists who paint all atheists as one-dimensional, emotionless beings? Are they missing any part of the picture?

All the atheists I know well fully recognize the "emotional aspect" as you called it.

And I have seen self-professed atheists becoming emotional when the other side uses the same technique they use against theists. Confrontation of this kind (from theists or atheists) is actually belief in action (on both sides) and Sankara would say, this is reflective of a fanatic attachment to "vasanas". Ashis Nandy would say, the difference between the CH "discussion" and that in my village street fight is - the "sophistication" that CHers use to sugar coat their biases. Just look at this thread and you will see one or two very sophisticated "street fighters".

Guruvu-gaaru, I didn't understand your cryptic message. Perhaps I have to meditate on it full-time for a few days to see the hidden meaning. Unfortunately, I lack the time and patience to do that.

Maria S wrote:

southindian wrote:
I thought, everyone should be fine as long as things don't effect people's private lives.
Public sphere is... public.. Right?
Freedom or speech, expression and all that hoopla ...people speak of day and night here.

LOL!
Funny who always fake the most- accuse others of being fake too!
*Let's face it..everyone has "their self-interests"..and 'grand self-images'..about how they don't push their views on others!

Maria S wrote:*From my experiences/perspective:

Having been around- witnessed the beginning of life and end of life a whole lot- in my lifetime, it's quite awesome to imagine/know there is "something" much greater than human awesomeness.

*Do have moments of doubt, frustration and fears/anxiety..but, overcome them and feel liberated..when I have done everything in my human power and accept- "what was meant to be"...and try to let go.

Don't have to listen to anything - anyone else..Pope, Bishop, Pastor, Priest, Brother or Sister says/interprets my "faith-oriented" teachings (like an occasional good sermon/interpretation of the scriptures!). But, I am very capable of interpreting them for myself/gain some understanding. *Some times it leads to the interpretation (sorting out allegory, symbolism)- "I don't know", if it it is, it is what it is.

Like the fellowship with other non-atheists/like some rituals too..some individuals are wise, funny and..their "work" to help others unselfishly..quietly inspires me.

Feel very calm and at peace when I pray- it's physically and emotionally greatly helpful on a human level/my human conditioning.

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:[quot



And I have seen self-professed atheists becoming emotional when the other side uses the same technique they use against theists. Confrontation of this kind (from theists or atheists) is actually belief in action (on both sides) and Sankara would say, this is reflective of a fanatic attachment to "vasanas". Ashis Nandy would say, the difference between the CH "discussion" and that in my village street fight is - the "sophistication" that CHers use to sugar coat their biases. Just look at this thread and you will see one or two very sophisticated "street fighters".

Maria S wrote:Nope..don't know- don't want to know..even if I know- will not make any difference to me.
Thanks for asking.

ashdoc wrote:

you are fortunate to be a christian which believes in equality for all human beings---so you are free to be a believer .

but if i start believing in my religion then i would have to believe in caste system . i would have to believe that other humans are inferior to me since i was born in a brahmin family . rather than do that i prefer to be atheist .

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

it's actually quite funny and doesn't insult anyone as you seem to be imagining.

.