Andhra Pradesh and Maharashtra

by Guest Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:08 pm

why are the figures for farmer suicides in andhra pradesh and maharashtra so high? what is so peculiar about these two states?
i am also unpleasantly surprised to see all the four southern states being named in the list of states with maximum number of farmer suicides.

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/columns/sainath/article2687160.ece

by Guest Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:31 pm

Rashmun wrote:why are the figures for farmer suicides in andhra pradesh and maharashtra so high? what is so peculiar about these two states?
i am also unpleasantly surprised to see all the four southern states being named in the list of states with maximum number of farmer suicides.

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/columns/sainath/article2687160.ece

the figures for karnataka and (M.P. + Chattisgarh) are almost as high. What explains the low figure for U.P. (India's most populous state)?

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:22 pm

Rashmun wrote:

the figures for karnataka and (M.P. + Chattisgarh) are almost as high. What explains the low figure for U.P. (India's most populous state)?

they are more used to grinding poverty and being regarded as residents of the shit hole of india. in other words they are inured to misery and don't find the need to kill themselves despite being miserable.

by Guest Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:44 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Rashmun wrote:

the figures for karnataka and (M.P. + Chattisgarh) are almost as high. What explains the low figure for U.P. (India's most populous state)?

they are more used to grinding poverty and being regarded as residents of the shit hole of india. in other words they are inured to misery and don't find the need to kill themselves despite being miserable.

another possible reason could be the presence of so many holy/sacred places in U.P. and also the presence of the sacred ganges river which flows through U.P.. your claim that u.p. is the shit hole of India is ridiculous to say the least.

by Guest Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:19 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Rashmun wrote:

the figures for karnataka and (M.P. + Chattisgarh) are almost as high. What explains the low figure for U.P. (India's most populous state)?

they are more used to grinding poverty and being regarded as residents of the shit hole of india. in other words they are inured to misery and don't find the need to kill themselves despite being miserable.

Eh?

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:07 am

Rashmun wrote:
Rashmun wrote:why are the figures for farmer suicides in andhra pradesh and maharashtra so high? what is so peculiar about these two states?
i am also unpleasantly surprised to see all the four southern states being named in the list of states with maximum number of farmer suicides.

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/columns/sainath/article2687160.ece

the figures for karnataka and (M.P. + Chattisgarh) are almost as high. What explains the low figure for U.P. (India's most populous state)?

1. They are too poor to buy any poison.

2. After living in UP and drinking the Ganges water, no poison is going to kill them

3. There are no farmers...bcz much of the land is owned by Mirasdars and politicians and the rest are just daily slaves

4. They are waiting for their leaders Mayawati, Sonia Mata, and Mulayam to issue orders.

Take a pick.

by Guest Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:36 am

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Rashmun wrote:why are the figures for farmer suicides in andhra pradesh and maharashtra so high? what is so peculiar about these two states?
i am also unpleasantly surprised to see all the four southern states being named in the list of states with maximum number of farmer suicides.

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/columns/sainath/article2687160.ece

the figures for karnataka and (M.P. + Chattisgarh) are almost as high. What explains the low figure for U.P. (India's most populous state)?

1. They are too poor to buy any poison.

2. After living in UP and drinking the Ganges water, no poison is going to kill them

3. There are no farmers...bcz much of the land is owned by Mirasdars and politicians and the rest are just daily slaves

4. They are waiting for their leaders Mayawati, Sonia Mata, and Mulayam to issue orders.

Take a pick.

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/53986/uttar-pradesh-sugar-output-up.html

http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2011-05-12/news/29536253_1_mango-production-mango-output-chausa-and-dussehri

by Guest Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:45 am

Guess UP is one of the few states in entire India which has the most number of individually known and famous cities. Shit hole, really Max?

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:49 am

Tracy Whitney wrote:Guess UP is one of the few states in entire India which has the most number of individually known and famous cities. Shit hole, really Max?

Lucknow...hm...Kanpur...hm...Allahabad (or they are the same?)...

then nagpur? Bhopal???

for every town you can cite, I can cite 10 TN towns...bet?

by Guest Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:20 am

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
Tracy Whitney wrote:Guess UP is one of the few states in entire India which has the most number of individually known and famous cities. Shit hole, really Max?

Lucknow...hm...Kanpur...hm...Allahabad (or they are the same?)...

then nagpur? Bhopal???

for every town you can cite, I can cite 10 TN towns...bet?

Nagpur is in Maharashtra. Bhopal in mp.

Lucknow, Kanpur, Allahbad, Agra, Meerut, Mathura, Varanasi/Benaras, Ghaziabad, Aligarh, Jhansi, Noida, Bareilli, Faizabad, Nainital (now in uttarakhand). Other than Faizabad I'm sure yu have heard names of the others.

Yes. TN too has many popular places but I bet you can't list 10 popular ones for each of the above.

by charvaka Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:29 am

Rashmun wrote:
Rashmun wrote:why are the figures for farmer suicides in andhra pradesh and maharashtra so high? what is so peculiar about these two states?
i am also unpleasantly surprised to see all the four southern states being named in the list of states with maximum number of farmer suicides.

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/columns/sainath/article2687160.ece

the figures for karnataka and (M.P. + Chattisgarh) are almost as high. What explains the low figure for U.P. (India's most populous state)?

Most of the farmer suicides I have read about are caused by a sequence of events: farmer has access to credit, takes out a big loan mortgaging his ancestral land, plants a high-risk cash crop (e.g. peanut, cotton) that needs big investments in seeds (particularly if GMO), fertilizer and pesticide, and then his crop fails either due to drought or some pest. At that point, the farmer stands to lose his land, which is the only way he knows how to support his family. Due to climate and soil type, those cash crops are most prevalent in Andhra Pradesh and Maharashtra. I don't know why suicides are lower in UP. My guess would be that planting of risky cash crops is less prevalent, and farmers have less access to credit (the first may at least in part be because of the second.)

by charvaka Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:48 am

Rashmun wrote:another possible reason could be the presence of so many holy/sacred places in U.P. and also the presence of the sacred ganges river which flows through U.P.. your claim that u.p. is the shit hole of India is ridiculous to say the least.

Yes, as is your claim that the presence of sacred places and the Ganga keeps the suicide rate down.

by chameli Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:30 pm

Northerners have a greater zest to live i would conclude

they love life ... dont think so deeply /negatively

they also think suicide is wrong

they may not have the kind of self respect the others have

are these reasons enough ?

by doofus_maximus Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:48 pm

I read some nice and some ridiculous comments on this thread trying to understand the reasons why Southern states' farmer's suicide rates are high and then I read Cham Cham's reasoning. Guys Move along..this thread is over.

by Guest Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:12 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Rashmun wrote:why are the figures for farmer suicides in andhra pradesh and maharashtra so high? what is so peculiar about these two states?
i am also unpleasantly surprised to see all the four southern states being named in the list of states with maximum number of farmer suicides.

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/columns/sainath/article2687160.ece

the figures for karnataka and (M.P. + Chattisgarh) are almost as high. What explains the low figure for U.P. (India's most populous state)?
Most of the farmer suicides I have read about are caused by a sequence of events: farmer has access to credit, takes out a big loan mortgaging his ancestral land, plants a high-risk cash crop (e.g. peanut, cotton) that needs big investments in seeds (particularly if GMO), fertilizer and pesticide, and then his crop fails either due to drought or some pest. At that point, the farmer stands to lose his land, which is the only way he knows how to support his family. Due to climate and soil type, those cash crops are most prevalent in Andhra Pradesh and Maharashtra. I don't know why suicides are lower in UP. My guess would be that planting of risky cash crops is less prevalent, and farmers have less access to credit (the first may at least in part be because of the second.)

With respect to cash crops, U.P. is the second largest producer of sugar cane after Maharashtra. Sugar cane is a well recognized cash crop.

by Guest Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:15 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:another possible reason could be the presence of so many holy/sacred places in U.P. and also the presence of the sacred ganges river which flows through U.P.. your claim that u.p. is the shit hole of India is ridiculous to say the least.
Yes, as is your claim that the presence of sacred places and the Ganga keeps the suicide rate down.

it is natural for a dogmatic atheist to underestimate the power of religion. Additionally, people in rural A.P. seem to be less religious than their U.P. counterparts. Evidence for this is the complete absence of Naxalism in U.P. whereas A.P. is probably the heartland of the Naxal menace in India. People who have given up the succor of religion are more prone to commit suicide in my opinion.

by chameli Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:20 pm

doofus_maximus wrote:I read some nice and some ridiculous comments on this thread trying to understand the reasons why Southern states' farmer's suicide rates are high and then I read Cham Cham's reasoning. Guys Move along..this thread is over.

doofus ,

so you are smarter than your name suggests ?

this thread gets over when i say it's over lol

by artood2 Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:58 pm

blabberwock wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Rashmun wrote:

the figures for karnataka and (M.P. + Chattisgarh) are almost as high. What explains the low figure for U.P. (India's most populous state)?

they are more used to grinding poverty and being regarded as residents of the shit hole of india. in other words they are inured to misery and don't find the need to kill themselves despite being miserable.

Eh?

thou shall not question such deep analysis.

by artood2 Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:01 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Rashmun wrote:why are the figures for farmer suicides in andhra pradesh and maharashtra so high? what is so peculiar about these two states?
i am also unpleasantly surprised to see all the four southern states being named in the list of states with maximum number of farmer suicides.

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/columns/sainath/article2687160.ece

the figures for karnataka and (M.P. + Chattisgarh) are almost as high. What explains the low figure for U.P. (India's most populous state)?
Most of the farmer suicides I have read about are caused by a sequence of events: farmer has access to credit, takes out a big loan mortgaging his ancestral land, plants a high-risk cash crop (e.g. peanut, cotton) that needs big investments in seeds (particularly if GMO), fertilizer and pesticide, and then his crop fails either due to drought or some pest. At that point, the farmer stands to lose his land, which is the only way he knows how to support his family. Due to climate and soil type, those cash crops are most prevalent in Andhra Pradesh and Maharashtra. I don't know why suicides are lower in UP. My guess would be that planting of risky cash crops is less prevalent, and farmers have less access to credit (the first may at least in part be because of the second.)

I agree with almost all of what C said. In addition, I would like to point out that the rivers flowing through UP are snow-fed as opposed to south and hence drought is usually not a factor. Even in bad rainfall years they have enough to irrigate.

by Guest Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:02 pm

artood2 wrote:
blabberwock wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Rashmun wrote:

the figures for karnataka and (M.P. + Chattisgarh) are almost as high. What explains the low figure for U.P. (India's most populous state)?

they are more used to grinding poverty and being regarded as residents of the shit hole of india. in other words they are inured to misery and don't find the need to kill themselves despite being miserable.

Eh?

thou shall not question such deep analysis.

In simble words Maxu means, 'already dead people don't wanna die'.. and Rashu means, 'such enlightened people are too evolved to die coz of bad crops'.

edit: while all the others just want this thread to die.

by Guest Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:45 pm

artood2 wrote:
charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Rashmun wrote:why are the figures for farmer suicides in andhra pradesh and maharashtra so high? what is so peculiar about these two states?
i am also unpleasantly surprised to see all the four southern states being named in the list of states with maximum number of farmer suicides.

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/columns/sainath/article2687160.ece

the figures for karnataka and (M.P. + Chattisgarh) are almost as high. What explains the low figure for U.P. (India's most populous state)?
Most of the farmer suicides I have read about are caused by a sequence of events: farmer has access to credit, takes out a big loan mortgaging his ancestral land, plants a high-risk cash crop (e.g. peanut, cotton) that needs big investments in seeds (particularly if GMO), fertilizer and pesticide, and then his crop fails either due to drought or some pest. At that point, the farmer stands to lose his land, which is the only way he knows how to support his family. Due to climate and soil type, those cash crops are most prevalent in Andhra Pradesh and Maharashtra. I don't know why suicides are lower in UP. My guess would be that planting of risky cash crops is less prevalent, and farmers have less access to credit (the first may at least in part be because of the second.)

I agree with almost all of what C said. In addition, I would like to point out that the rivers flowing through UP are snow-fed as opposed to south and hence drought is usually not a factor. Even in bad rainfall years they have enough to irrigate.

--> the point about U.P. rivers being snow fed as compared to A.P. rivers (and rivers in many other states) is a good one. C's claim about A.P. having more cash crops as compared to U.P. because of soil type and climate is ridiculous. For instance, U.P. is the second largest producer of sugar cane (after Maharashtra) and the largest producer of mangos in India. Mango production is highly dependent on climatic factors but we do not see a high spate of suicides in India's most populous state because of poor yield in mango production.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:59 pm

my views of UP are informed by my travels around lucknow and meerut over the years. the last time i visited both "cities" was in the late 90s or the earlier part of the last decade; i don't quite remember. i didn't see great libraries, music halls, book shops, or museums. instead what i saw was blinding poverty, gaudy looking shops selling all manner of plastic baubles, many feral dogs roaming the streets, and armed civilian men on bicycles. both places struck me as positively medieval.

by charvaka Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:03 pm

artood2 wrote:
charvaka wrote:Most of the farmer suicides I have read about are caused by a sequence of events: farmer has access to credit, takes out a big loan mortgaging his ancestral land, plants a high-risk cash crop (e.g. peanut, cotton) that needs big investments in seeds (particularly if GMO), fertilizer and pesticide, and then his crop fails either due to drought or some pest. At that point, the farmer stands to lose his land, which is the only way he knows how to support his family. Due to climate and soil type, those cash crops are most prevalent in Andhra Pradesh and Maharashtra. I don't know why suicides are lower in UP. My guess would be that planting of risky cash crops is less prevalent, and farmers have less access to credit (the first may at least in part be because of the second.)

I agree with almost all of what C said. In addition, I would like to point out that the rivers flowing through UP are snow-fed as opposed to south and hence drought is usually not a factor. Even in bad rainfall years they have enough to irrigate.

That's a very good point. The same cash crop becomes more financially risky in a drought-prone area than it is in a well-irrigated area.

Rashmun wrote:Mango production is highly dependent on climatic factors but we do not
see a high spate of suicides in India's most populous state because of
poor yield in mango production.

If you know anything about mangoes, you would know that they grow on trees. Mango cultivation is based on the orchard model, not on the annual crop model. A bad year of drought does not result in the loss of everything a mango farmer owns; his investment is in trees that will yield a lower output than normal that year, and will return to full output if the rains return the year after. A cotton farmer's crop, OTOH, has a lifetime of one season; drought or pest, and all his output is at risk.

Please don't bother posting the article you created a new thread for. The writer of that article thinks wheat and rice are cash crops! If a cotton farmer's output in a year is 20% of his regular output, he won't have enough money to buy food and service the debt that financed his crop (not to speak of not having any money left over for the next year's seeds, fertilizer and pesticides.) If a wheat or rice farmer's output in a year is 20% of his regular output, he at least has the wheat or rice to feed his own family.

by Guest Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:25 pm

charvaka wrote:
artood2 wrote:
charvaka wrote:Most of the farmer suicides I have read about are caused by a sequence of events: farmer has access to credit, takes out a big loan mortgaging his ancestral land, plants a high-risk cash crop (e.g. peanut, cotton) that needs big investments in seeds (particularly if GMO), fertilizer and pesticide, and then his crop fails either due to drought or some pest. At that point, the farmer stands to lose his land, which is the only way he knows how to support his family. Due to climate and soil type, those cash crops are most prevalent in Andhra Pradesh and Maharashtra. I don't know why suicides are lower in UP. My guess would be that planting of risky cash crops is less prevalent, and farmers have less access to credit (the first may at least in part be because of the second.)

I agree with almost all of what C said. In addition, I would like to point out that the rivers flowing through UP are snow-fed as opposed to south and hence drought is usually not a factor. Even in bad rainfall years they have enough to irrigate.
That's a very good point. The same cash crop becomes more financially risky in a drought-prone area than it is in a well-irrigated area.

Rashmun wrote:Mango production is highly dependent on climatic factors but we do not
see a high spate of suicides in India's most populous state because of
poor yield in mango production.
If you know anything about mangoes, you would know that they grow on trees. Mango cultivation is based on the orchard model, not on the annual crop model. A bad year of drought does not result in the loss of everything a mango farmer owns; his investment is in trees that will yield a lower output than normal that year, and will return to full output if the rains return the year after. A cotton farmer's crop, OTOH, has a lifetime of one season; drought or pest, and all his output is at risk.

Please don't bother posting the article you created a new thread for. The writer of that article thinks wheat and rice are cash crops! If a cotton farmer's output in a year is 20% of his regular output, he won't have enough money to buy food and service the debt that financed his crop (not to speak of not having any money left over for the next year's seeds, fertilizer and pesticides.) If a wheat or rice farmer's output in a year is 20% of his regular output, he at least has the wheat or rice to feed his own family.

--> my understanding is that cash crops are those crops which are easily marketable. a quick google search on the subject gave me links to many websites which said that wheat and rice should be considered cash crops.

by artood2 Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:38 pm

Rashmun wrote:
charvaka wrote:
artood2 wrote:
charvaka wrote:Most of the farmer suicides I have read about are caused by a sequence of events: farmer has access to credit, takes out a big loan mortgaging his ancestral land, plants a high-risk cash crop (e.g. peanut, cotton) that needs big investments in seeds (particularly if GMO), fertilizer and pesticide, and then his crop fails either due to drought or some pest. At that point, the farmer stands to lose his land, which is the only way he knows how to support his family. Due to climate and soil type, those cash crops are most prevalent in Andhra Pradesh and Maharashtra. I don't know why suicides are lower in UP. My guess would be that planting of risky cash crops is less prevalent, and farmers have less access to credit (the first may at least in part be because of the second.)

I agree with almost all of what C said. In addition, I would like to point out that the rivers flowing through UP are snow-fed as opposed to south and hence drought is usually not a factor. Even in bad rainfall years they have enough to irrigate.
That's a very good point. The same cash crop becomes more financially risky in a drought-prone area than it is in a well-irrigated area.

Rashmun wrote:Mango production is highly dependent on climatic factors but we do not
see a high spate of suicides in India's most populous state because of
poor yield in mango production.
If you know anything about mangoes, you would know that they grow on trees. Mango cultivation is based on the orchard model, not on the annual crop model. A bad year of drought does not result in the loss of everything a mango farmer owns; his investment is in trees that will yield a lower output than normal that year, and will return to full output if the rains return the year after. A cotton farmer's crop, OTOH, has a lifetime of one season; drought or pest, and all his output is at risk.

Please don't bother posting the article you created a new thread for. The writer of that article thinks wheat and rice are cash crops! If a cotton farmer's output in a year is 20% of his regular output, he won't have enough money to buy food and service the debt that financed his crop (not to speak of not having any money left over for the next year's seeds, fertilizer and pesticides.) If a wheat or rice farmer's output in a year is 20% of his regular output, he at least has the wheat or rice to feed his own family.

--> my understanding is that cash crops are those crops which are easily marketable. a quick google search on the subject gave me links to many websites which said that wheat and rice should be considered cash crops.

I wonder what would fall under non-cash crops. AFAIK, they would fall under food crops in Indian context but then I have been wrong before.

by artood2 Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:47 pm

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Punjab-farmer-commits-suicide-on-bank-premises-after-being-denied-Rs-50-crore-loan/articleshow/11007907.cms

by charvaka Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:48 pm

artood2 wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
--> my understanding is that cash crops are those crops which are easily marketable. a quick google search on the subject gave me links to many websites which said that wheat and rice should be considered cash crops.

I wonder what would fall under non-cash crops. AFAIK, they would fall under food crops in Indian context but then I have been wrong before.

It is possible to argue about the semantics of the phrase "cash crops" until the cows come home. In the context of farmer suicides, what is relevant is that regular cereal crops (wheat and rice in the Indian context), even when they yield a small fraction of their expected output for the season, provide for the sustenance of the farmer and his / her family, and seeds for the next cycle. Food crops are also less debt-financed than crops like cotton and peanut which require most up-front investment in seeds, fertilizer and pesticides. As a result, for farmers in AP and MH, rice and wheat are low-risk, low-return propositions, while cotton and peanut are high-risk, high-return propositions. When a farmer takes the big risks and fails, there is a perverse incentive where the family gets government support only if the farmer commits suicide; otherwise their land is taken over and they have no livelihood. Peepili Live dramatized this quite well.

by Guest Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:56 pm

charvaka wrote:
artood2 wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
--> my understanding is that cash crops are those crops which are easily marketable. a quick google search on the subject gave me links to many websites which said that wheat and rice should be considered cash crops.

I wonder what would fall under non-cash crops. AFAIK, they would fall under food crops in Indian context but then I have been wrong before.
It is possible to argue about the semantics of the phrase "cash crops" until the cows come home. In the context of farmer suicides, what is relevant is that regular cereal crops (wheat and rice in the Indian context), even when they yield a small fraction of their expected output for the season, provide for the sustenance of the farmer and his / her family, and seeds for the next cycle. Food crops are also less debt-financed than crops like cotton and peanut which require most up-front investment in seeds, fertilizer and pesticides. As a result, for farmers in AP and MH, rice and wheat are low-risk, low-return propositions, while cotton and peanut are high-risk, high-return propositions. When a farmer takes the big risks and fails, there is a perverse incentive where the family gets government support only if the farmer commits suicide; otherwise their land is taken over and they have no livelihood. Peepili Live dramatized this quite well.

in fact the AP govt does not give any financial support to the family of a farmer who has committed suicide. the rationale given is that this is to discourage more farmer suicides. this is as per the frontline article whose link i gave in the other thread.

by Guest Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:25 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:my views of UP are informed by my travels around lucknow and meerut over the years. the last time i visited both "cities" was in the late 90s or the earlier part of the last decade; i don't quite remember. i didn't see great libraries, music halls, book shops, or museums. instead what i saw was blinding poverty, gaudy looking shops selling all manner of plastic baubles, many feral dogs roaming the streets, and armed civilian men on bicycles. both places struck me as positively medieval.

K let's see... you went to Lucknow and Meerut?

museum

http://www.bharatonline.com/uttar-pradesh/travel/lucknow/lucknow-museum.html

http://meerutmuseum.com/home.html

Book shops

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&site=&source=hp&q=lucknow+book+shops&pbx=1&oq=lucknow+book+shops&aq=f&aqi=g-v1&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=103l3649l0l3865l18l16l0l1l1l0l205l2306l5.9.2l17l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=2f530ebf24b03457&biw=1024&bih=472

http://www.google.com/#q=meerut+book+shop&hl=en&prmd=imvns&source=univ&tbm=plcs&tbo=u&ei=kMzeTuXOKqXy0gHf74CIBw&sa=X&oi=local_group&ct=more-results&resnum=1&ved=0CHIQtQMwAA&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=2fa0c66f255647&biw=1024&bih=472

Auditoriums

http://www.meralucknow.com/%5Clinks%5Cauditorium.html

http://www.google.com/#q=meerut+auditoriums&hl=en&prmd=imvns&source=univ&tbm=plcs&tbo=u&ei=_M3eTu7vOee60QHJhuTJBw&sa=X&oi=local_group&ct=more-results&resnum=1&ved=0CFoQtQMwAA&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=2fa0c66f255647&biw=1024&bih=472

Library

http://twocircles.net/node/219013

http://www.ummid.com/news/2010/January/21.01.2010/amiruddaula_libray_in_lucknow.htm

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=library+meerut&pbx=1&oq=library+meerut&aq=f&aqi=g1g-m1g-b1&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=10589l10589l0l10969l1l1l0l0l0l0l188l188l0.1l1l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=2f530ebf24b03457&biw=1024&bih=472

Poverty

http://www.bharatonline.com/hotels/lucknow/5-star-hotels.php

http://www.supertechlimited.com/hospitality/country-inn-meerut/index.asp?links=sl1

by Guest Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:32 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:my views of UP are informed by my travels around lucknow and meerut over the years. the last time i visited both "cities" was in the late 90s or the earlier part of the last decade; i don't quite remember. i didn't see great libraries, music halls, book shops, or museums. instead what i saw was blinding poverty, gaudy looking shops selling all manner of plastic baubles, many feral dogs roaming the streets, and armed civilian men on bicycles. both places struck me as positively medieval.

That's precisely what I feel about Chennai international airport's departure lounge especially when the stench from the toilets hits my nose. I don't dare go inside one - "lotas" (HK, please note) secured with steel chains and 2" water on the floor are what awaits one.

by Mosquito Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:39 pm

blabberwock wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:my views of UP are informed by my travels around lucknow and meerut over the years. the last time i visited both "cities" was in the late 90s or the earlier part of the last decade; i don't quite remember. i didn't see great libraries, music halls, book shops, or museums. instead what i saw was blinding poverty, gaudy looking shops selling all manner of plastic baubles, many feral dogs roaming the streets, and armed civilian men on bicycles. both places struck me as positively medieval.

That's precisely what I feel about Chennai international airport's departure lounge especially when the stench from the toilets hits my nose. I don't dare go inside one - "lotas" (HK, please note) secured with steel chains and 2" water on the floor are what awaits one.

Chennai airport HORRENDOUS!! Even worse for people like me who are supposed to wait for connecting flights.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:41 pm

blabberwock wrote:

That's precisely what I feel about Chennai international airport's departure lounge especially when the stench from the toilets hits my nose. I don't dare go inside one - "lotas" (HK, please note) secured with steel chains and 2" water on the floor are what awaits one.

it's ok BW -- the world doesn't have to be an exactly balanced place. you don't have to take umbrage that i have dissed the north. i have traveled extensively in the north and lived for extended periods in the south and at least during the years i lived in india, found the south to be cleaner, safer, and far more habitable. exceptions exist but i find this to be true by and large. your mileage may vary and i never ask that you accept these rather qualitative impressions. they work for me, and i'm not hurt at all that you found madras airport stinky.

by Guest Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:46 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
blabberwock wrote:

That's precisely what I feel about Chennai international airport's departure lounge especially when the stench from the toilets hits my nose. I don't dare go inside one - "lotas" (HK, please note) secured with steel chains and 2" water on the floor are what awaits one.

it's ok BW -- the world doesn't have to be an exactly balanced place. you don't have to take umbrage that i have dissed the north. i have traveled extensively in the north and lived for extended periods in the south and at least during the years i lived in india, found the south to be cleaner, safer, and far more habitable. exceptions exist but i find this to be true by and large. your mileage may vary and i never ask that you accept these rather qualitative impressions. they work for me, and i'm not hurt at all that you found madras airport stinky.

Eh? You channeling Vee now?

No umbrage here - just sharing thoughts. I have never been to Lucknow or Meerut and have no loyalty to either of those places.

That said, I found your explanation of why poor farmers kill themselves more in AP than in UP rather..err..bizarre. I assume you were being facetious.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:45 pm

blabberwock wrote:

Eh? You channeling Vee now?

No umbrage here - just sharing thoughts. I have never been to Lucknow or Meerut and have no loyalty to either of those places.

That said, I found your explanation of why poor farmers kill themselves more in AP than in UP rather..err..bizarre. I assume you were being facetious.

so were you channeling tracy whitney in your rather defensive quid pro quo when you mentioned the stinky madras airport toilet?

there is a reason for my original response. explaining it will rob it of what it was intended to do.

by Guest Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:49 pm

lol at channeling tracy whitney. well at least the two of us aren't prejudiced like you are.

btw, did you see any of my links?

by charvaka Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:54 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:there is a reason for my original response. explaining it will rob it of what it was intended to do.

Mission accomplished? https://such.forumotion.com/t3821-accumulation-of-filth-and-waste-in-tamil-nadu

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:54 pm

Tracy Whitney wrote:well at least the two of us aren't prejudiced like you are.

oh yes of course. you guys are the salt of the earth and should be instantly confirmed to the supreme court.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:55 pm

charvaka wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:there is a reason for my original response. explaining it will rob it of what it was intended to do.
Mission accomplished? https://such.forumotion.com/t3821-accumulation-of-filth-and-waste-in-tamil-nadu

ha! you beat me to it.

by Guest Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:01 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
charvaka wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:there is a reason for my original response. explaining it will rob it of what it was intended to do.
Mission accomplished? https://such.forumotion.com/t3821-accumulation-of-filth-and-waste-in-tamil-nadu

ha! you beat me to it.

in fact i had given some of these links on sulekha CH but perhaps u did not see my post. also, i fail to see why u find the news of TN becoming the toilet of the world funny. it made my blood boil when i read those news reports.

by Guest Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:05 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

so were you channeling tracy whitney in your rather defensive quid pro quo when you mentioned the stinky madras airport toilet?

Tracy? How? Has she said that Chennai airport stinks?

What was defensive about saying that Chennai airport stinks? Chennai airport being stinky does not make Lucknow or Meerut any less stinky, does it? "Positively medieval" reminded me of my recent experiences with Chennai, especially the airport.

You chose to interpret that as "taking umbrage for dissing north", and now "defensive quid pro quo". All this is relevant only if one's worldview is restricted to "north" vs "south" and there is a battle between the two.

by Guest Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:06 am

charvaka wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:there is a reason for my original response. explaining it will rob it of what it was intended to do.
Mission accomplished? https://such.forumotion.com/t3821-accumulation-of-filth-and-waste-in-tamil-nadu

K, so it was just a bait? Kinda sad.

Anyway, found about Lucknow and Meerut in the process. I have been to Meerut, but never to Lucknow. maybe one of these days...

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:15 am

blabberwock wrote:

Tracy? How? Has she said that Chennai airport stinks?

she hasn't specifically said that, but she too has this burning need for a perfectly balanced world.

blabberwock wrote:What was defensive about saying that Chennai airport stinks? Chennai
airport being stinky does not make Lucknow or Meerut any less stinky,
does it? "Positively medieval" reminded me of my recent experiences with
Chennai, especially the airport.

if it wasn't defensive, it was at least very curious that of all the examples you could think of for illustrating something equivalently medieval, you chose that particular one.

blabberwock wrote:You chose to interpret that as
"taking umbrage for dissing north", and now "defensive quid pro quo".
All this is relevant only if one's worldview is restricted to "north" vs
"south" and there is a battle between the two.

i didn't expect you to get so exercised about this! you do have some peculiar trigger points.

by Guest Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:21 am

All I need to know is if u were making up stuff about Lucknow and Meerut, or did you mean it.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:23 am

Tracy Whitney wrote:All I need to know is if u were making up stuff about Lucknow and Meerut, or did you mean it.

by Guest Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:26 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

i didn't expect you to get so exercised about this! you do have some peculiar trigger points.

Exercised?

Why can't we just debate/discuss issues without all this unnecessary speculations on the other person's motivation?

Why this kolaveri, da?

by Guest Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:31 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Tracy Whitney wrote:All I need to know is if u were making up stuff about Lucknow and Meerut, or did you mean it.

answer please

by charvaka Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:32 am

blabberwock wrote:Why can't we just debate/discuss issues without all this unnecessary speculations on the other person's motivation?

+1

by Guest Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:41 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Tracy Whitney wrote:well at least the two of us aren't prejudiced like you are.

oh yes of course. you guys are the salt of the earth and should be instantly confirmed to the supreme court.

assuming whatever you were drinking last nigt has worn off now. please continue to explain if you wanna. And answer my other q too, if you wanna.

by Kris Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:46 pm

[quote="blabberwock"]

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Why this kolaveri, da?

>>> Et tu, Brute?

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:02 pm

blabberwock wrote:

Why can't we just debate/discuss issues without all this unnecessary speculations on the other person's motivation?

i agree. we can start by stopping the speculations about whose thoughts we are trying to channel when we post here.

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