Re: Andhra Pradesh and Maharashtra

by artood2 Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:43 pm

blabberwock wrote:

You chose to interpret that as "taking umbrage for dissing north", and now "defensive quid pro quo". All this is relevant only if one's worldview is restricted to "north" vs "south" and there is a battle between the two.

+1

by artood2 Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:50 pm

charvaka wrote:
artood2 wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
--> my understanding is that cash crops are those crops which are easily marketable. a quick google search on the subject gave me links to many websites which said that wheat and rice should be considered cash crops.

I wonder what would fall under non-cash crops. AFAIK, they would fall under food crops in Indian context but then I have been wrong before.
It is possible to argue about the semantics of the phrase "cash crops" until the cows come home. In the context of farmer suicides, what is relevant is that regular cereal crops (wheat and rice in the Indian context), even when they yield a small fraction of their expected output for the season, provide for the sustenance of the farmer and his / her family, and seeds for the next cycle. Food crops are also less debt-financed than crops like cotton and peanut which require most up-front investment in seeds, fertilizer and pesticides. As a result, for farmers in AP and MH, rice and wheat are low-risk, low-return propositions, while cotton and peanut are high-risk, high-return propositions. When a farmer takes the big risks and fails, there is a perverse incentive where the family gets government support only if the farmer commits suicide; otherwise their land is taken over and they have no livelihood. Peepili Live dramatized this quite well.

yeah Peepli Live is really fresh in my mind. The debt financing and risk management is very important. The other factor was everyone moving to grow a different crop next year based on the prices this year. This leads to a price drop due to abundance and farmer cannot repay the loans.

by Guest Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:56 am

one reason for more suicides in AP and maharashtra (as opposed to UP or Punjab or WB) is the low credit to deposit ratio in these states. i know this does not answer the question for the question, why is the credit off-take low in these states? goes abegging. for bengal, clearly, land reforms and small holdings of land is the culprit. low credit off-take may also be because of lazy banking in these states, or, a credit averse public (relative agriculture prosperity and lower risks in agriculture in these areas obviating the need for credit).

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1111208/jsp/frontpage/story_14854374.jsp

The Bengal government’s Economic Review 2010-11 shows that the
credit-deposit ratio in rural Bengal is the lowest at 34.56 per cent,
compared with that of Gujarat (46.22 per cent), Maharashtra (74.03 per
cent), Kerala (72.61 per cent), Tamil Nadu (95.56 per cent), Punjab
(53.94 per cent) and Uttar Pradesh (47.63 per cent)...In comparison, the credit-deposit ratio for states such as Andhra Pradesh was 110 per cent. In other words, states like Bengal with a low credit-deposit ratio funded the borrowing needs of people in Andhra Pradesh.

by Guest Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:57 am

blabberwock wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
blabberwock wrote:

That's precisely what I feel about Chennai international
airport's departure lounge especially when the stench from the toilets
hits my nose. I don't dare go inside one - "lotas" (HK, please note)
secured with steel chains and 2" water on the floor are what awaits
one.

it's ok BW -- the world doesn't have to be an exactly balanced place. you don't have to take umbrage that i have dissed the north.
i have traveled extensively in the north and lived for extended periods
in the south and at least during the years i lived in india, found the
south to be cleaner, safer, and far more habitable. exceptions exist but
i find this to be true by and large. your mileage may vary and i never
ask that you accept these rather qualitative impressions. they work for
me, and i'm not hurt at all that you found madras airport
stinky.

Eh? You channeling Vee now?

you might not have realized it, but you are bang on! the last time il professore said something about lucknow, he imagined it to be medieval like how much of afghanistan was. that is not very far from vee's occasional yelps, how bloody afghan! afghanistan seems to be a subconscious benchmark (for north india) for both! the two should make a trip and find out how the streets of kabul are really like.

source: http://forums.sulekha.com/forums/coffeehouse/any-of-you-folks-from-lucknow-790149.htm#790152

MaxEntropy_Man posted Re:Any of you folks from Lucknow??? on 3 yrs ago

lucknow is a positively medieval city. i presume much of afghanistan must be like lucknow. good luck with your business.

Queen Bee posted Re:Any of you folks from Lucknow??? on 3 yrs ago

i presume much of afghanistan must be like lucknow

your ignorance in this matter is commendable.

by Guest Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:06 am

Hmm. I vaguely remember that post. Anyway, I got my answers. There was no baiting and no joking. Max meant what he said. Which is sad really.

by Guest Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:36 am

Tracy Whitney wrote: There was no baiting and no joking. Max meant what he said. Which is sad really.

arre no, this one is a hindi movie. it has a happy ending. max did rave about lucknavi whole murg mussallam [sic], a whole cauliflower thingie, sultani dal, sumptuous avadhi cuisine, cool, comfy cotton kurtas, the mujra he almost saw (had it not been for family clinging on to him), the mofussil ambiance of rural lucknow and the pretty girls. (all right, i made the last one up.)

by Guest Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:26 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
Tracy Whitney wrote: There was no baiting and no joking. Max meant what he said. Which is sad really.

arre no, this one is a hindi movie. it has a happy ending. max did rave about lucknavi whole murg mussallam [sic], a whole cauliflower thingie, sultani dal, sumptuous avadhi cuisine, cool, comfy cotton kurtas, the mujra he almost saw (had it not been for family clinging on to him), the mofussil ambiance of rural lucknow and the pretty girls. (all right, i made the last one up.)

When where and how come?

by Guest Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:44 am

http://forums.sulekha.com/forums/coffeehouse/lucknow.htm

by Guest Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:54 am

the old format always give me a headache... I can never figure out who said what.

by Guest Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:03 am

well i gave you the crux above. you don't have to read that thread.

by Guest Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:45 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
blabberwock wrote:What was defensive about saying that Chennai airport stinks? Chennai
airport being stinky does not make Lucknow or Meerut any less stinky,
does it? "Positively medieval" reminded me of my recent experiences with
Chennai, especially the airport.

if it wasn't defensive, it was at least very curious that of all the examples you could think of for illustrating something equivalently medieval, you chose that particular one..

well, we are still discussing medieval-like india aren't we? bw, as she confesses, has not been to lucknow or meerut (and when she does, she might find it ancient). and i do imagine that she hasn't seen much of north india save delhi (if she has, she is acting in bad faith by citing just a chennai memory and i stand corrected). we know she visits chennai often. why would you expect her to quote examples of medieval-like towns from, say, inner mongolia in this discussion? who's the one excited by north-south india connotations here?

by charvaka Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:20 pm

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:one reason for more suicides in AP and maharashtra (as opposed to UP or Punjab or WB) is the low credit to deposit ratio in these states. i know this does not answer the question for the question, why is the credit off-take low in these states? goes abegging. for bengal, clearly, land reforms and small holdings of land is the culprit. low credit off-take may also be because of lazy banking in these states, or, a credit averse public (relative agriculture prosperity and lower risks in agriculture in these areas obviating the need for credit).

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1111208/jsp/frontpage/story_14854374.jsp

The Bengal government’s Economic Review 2010-11 shows that the
credit-deposit ratio in rural Bengal is the lowest at 34.56 per cent,
compared with that of Gujarat (46.22 per cent), Maharashtra (74.03 per
cent), Kerala (72.61 per cent), Tamil Nadu (95.56 per cent), Punjab
(53.94 per cent) and Uttar Pradesh (47.63 per cent)...In comparison, the credit-deposit ratio for states such as Andhra Pradesh was 110 per cent. In other words, states like Bengal with a low credit-deposit ratio funded the borrowing needs of people in Andhra Pradesh.

Thanks for posting this. As I have said all along on this thread, differences in extent of indebtedness is a big factor in differences in suicide rates between AP and MH on the one hand and UP on the other. I was looking for data on indebtedness, and this makes that point powerfully. The real question is why the farmers of Bengal and UP don't use (or need to use) high degrees of leverage in their crop financing.

by Guest Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:09 pm

charvaka wrote:The real question is why the farmers of Bengal and UP don't use (or need to use) high degrees of leverage in their crop financing.

yes. the land reforms excuse (for bengal), in retrospect, seems rather flimsy to me. there must be something else. r2d2's snow-fed rivers is a good point but i don't think it is a sufficient explanation. there must be other factors too to explain this rather bizarre statistic.

by artood2 Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:25 pm

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
charvaka wrote:The real question is why the farmers of Bengal and UP don't use (or need to use) high degrees of leverage in their crop financing.

yes. the land reforms excuse (for bengal), in retrospect, seems rather flimsy to me. there must be something else. r2d2's snow-fed rivers is a good point but i don't think it is a sufficient explanation. there must be other factors too to explain this rather bizarre statistic.

At the end of the day it is a factor of how much borrowings you take and how your risk taking plays out. Irrigation is just one of the risk elements. Even if everything goes your way, a bumper crop, aided by many farmers moving to the same craop, can still bring down the prices. A lot of that also has cultural underpinning. I do not think banks' credit/saving ratio is all that reliable. The private loaning at high interest rates is still widely prevalent. Alot of savings get invested with these lenders. It needs more data and cannot be explained simply as easy irrigation, spirituality or anal pores.

by charvaka Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:10 pm

artood2 wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
charvaka wrote:The real question is why the farmers of Bengal and UP don't use (or need to use) high degrees of leverage in their crop financing.

yes. the land reforms excuse (for bengal), in retrospect, seems rather flimsy to me. there must be something else. r2d2's snow-fed rivers is a good point but i don't think it is a sufficient explanation. there must be other factors too to explain this rather bizarre statistic.

At the end of the day it is a factor of how much borrowings you take and how your risk taking plays out. Irrigation is just one of the risk elements. Even if everything goes your way, a bumper crop, aided by many farmers moving to the same craop, can still bring down the prices. A lot of that also has cultural underpinning. I do not think banks' credit/saving ratio is all that reliable. The private loaning at high interest rates is still widely prevalent. Alot of savings get invested with these lenders. It needs more data and cannot be explained simply as easy irrigation, spirituality or anal pores.

Yes, bank lending does not show a full picture. Intuitively, though, I expect the comparative pattern between the various states to hold in terms of farmer indebtedness. Most of the important factors we have already discussed: reliability of water sources, risk profile of popular crops (high-risk high-return vs. low-risk low-return), size of landholding, access to credit (both formal and informal). My own inclination is to believe that cultural attitudes towards risk are a result of these ultimate factors rather than the primary drives that leads to those conditions (choices of crops, how much credit is available, etc.) The reason I am inclined to believe this is that wherever human beings have easy access to cheap credit, they do avail themselves of it.

by Kayalvizhi Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:10 am

South "Indians" are committing suicide because Hindian government are ssueezing them dry. Hindian gov does not care if Southern farmers go hungry and committ suicide. If it happens in Hindi land, special financial help would be given. About 5 years ago sugarcane farmers in south and north had a hard time making a living. What did Hindian gov do? They offered a spoecial emergency financial package to Hindi statews but nothinbg to south

Tamilnadu Sugarcane Growers get a Bitter Pill from India (by C. Arunachalam)
http://www.tamiltribune.com/03/0602.html

Also Hindians dont care if TN fishermen are kileed by Lankan Navy. No action even after over 400 killed. But when a Gujarati fisherman was killed India arned Pakistan. No more deaths in north but TN fishermen are being killed.

http://www.tamiltribune.com/tamilnadu/index.html

Read these things keep yourself informed.

by Guest Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:15 pm

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:one reason for more suicides in AP and maharashtra (as opposed to UP or Punjab or WB) is the low credit to deposit ratio in these states. i know this does not answer the question for the question, why is the credit off-take low in these states? goes abegging. for bengal, clearly, land reforms and small holdings of land is the culprit. low credit off-take may also be because of lazy banking in these states, or, a credit averse public (relative agriculture prosperity and lower risks in agriculture in these areas obviating the need for credit).

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1111208/jsp/frontpage/story_14854374.jsp

The Bengal government’s Economic Review 2010-11 shows that the
credit-deposit ratio in rural Bengal is the lowest at 34.56 per cent,
compared with that of Gujarat (46.22 per cent), Maharashtra (74.03 per
cent), Kerala (72.61 per cent), Tamil Nadu (95.56 per cent), Punjab
(53.94 per cent) and Uttar Pradesh (47.63 per cent)...In comparison, the credit-deposit ratio for states such as Andhra Pradesh was 110 per cent. In other words, states like Bengal with a low credit-deposit ratio funded the borrowing needs of people in Andhra Pradesh.

--> thanks for this. notice that the credit deposit ratio in Tamil Nadu is almost as high as in Andhra Pradesh and significantly higher than that in Maharashtra. And yet the farmer deaths in TN are significantly lower than in both AP and Maha.

by truthbetold Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:54 pm

When a farmer bets his farm, he goes broke with one failure. That is farming economy. When he goes broke with a family depending upon him and the humiliation of facing the unforgiving world, few of them lose it. One may not understand the distress these farmers are forced into when their crops fail. It is virtually impossible to comeback from those disasters.

The reason for AP farmer suicides is the lack of future path out of distress.

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