Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

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Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by FluteHolder on Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:13 pm


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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by Kayalvizhi on Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:46 am

Tamil - Early River Valley Civilization to Modern Technological Age
http://www.tamiltribune.com/10/0701.html

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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:25 am

Of course. 
While other languages modernized and developed over time in India, even in the neighborhood of Tamil including the languages Malyalam, Kannada and Telugu which even adopted newer and improved alphabets (with more letters / sounds) and which are now called by Tamil speakers as the newer languages and not as old / ancient as their language Tamil, Tamil speakers kept their own language Tamil stagnant, worthy of current classical and ancient status, by not modifying and bringing changes into it over time, including its alphabet which is quite short in the number of letters and sounds.
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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by Vakavaka Pakapaka on Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:43 am

Jaggi knows which buttons to press. He is not really a Tamil. He knows that the average Tamil goes ga ga if someone compliments Tamil culture. He is a very smart businessman.......

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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by FluteHolder on Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:58 am

I am not sure he is a businessman now. He was earlier and closed them down and I do not think he  has any business interest in the nonprofits. If awakening the masses who are immersed in cinema/corruption based politics and ignorance, nothing wrong in pressing some buttons if one has access to it.

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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by Kayalvizhi on Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:38 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:Of course. 
While other languages modernized and developed over time in India, even in the neighborhood of Tamil including the languages Malyalam, Kannada and Telugu which even adopted newer and improved alphabets (with more letters / sounds) and which are now called by Tamil speakers as the newer languages and not as old / ancient as their language Tamil, Tamil speakers kept their own language Tamil stagnant, worthy of current classical and ancient status, by not modifying and bringing changes into it over time, including its alphabet which is quite short in the number of letters and sounds.

There is no need to add to alphabet or borrow foreign words.

If you have healthy teeth, why do you want implants?

If you have good looking hair, why wear false hair?

How Tamil stays modern without borrowing is explained in the following article. If you have an open mind and know alternate pount of view, read

Tamil - Early River Valley Civilization to Modern Technological Age
http://www.tamiltribune.com/10/0701.html

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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:25 am

Kayalvizhi wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:Of course. 
While other languages modernized and developed over time in India, even in the neighborhood of Tamil including the languages Malyalam, Kannada and Telugu which even adopted newer and improved alphabets (with more letters / sounds) and which are now called by Tamil speakers as the newer languages and not as old / ancient as their language Tamil, Tamil speakers kept their own language Tamil stagnant, worthy of current classical and ancient status, by not modifying and bringing changes into it over time, including its alphabet which is quite short in the number of letters and sounds.

There is no need to add to alphabet or borrow foreign words.

If you have healthy teeth, why do you want implants?

If you have good looking hair, why wear false hair?

How Tamil stays modern without borrowing is explained in the following article. If you have an open mind and know alternate pount of view, read

Tamil - Early River Valley Civilization to Modern Technological Age
http://www.tamiltribune.com/10/0701.html
All other languages in India, including in the neighborhood of Tamil (e.g. Malyalam, Telugu and Kannada) and almost as ancient and original as Tamil, took step over time to correct and overcome the deficiencies in them thus becoming modern languages with better and up-to-date alphabets, whereas Tamil (its speakers) did no such thing which led to that language (Tamil) still stuck in its ancient form (alphabet and grammar etc.) and thus mired with many difficulties.
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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by FluteHolder on Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:40 am

All other languages in India, including in the neighborhood of Tamil (e.g. Malyalam, Telugu and Kannada) and almost as ancient and original as Tamil, took step over time to correct and overcome the deficiencies in them thus becoming modern languages with better and up-to-date alphabets, whereas Tamil (its speakers) did no such thing which led to that language (Tamil) still stuck in its ancient form (alphabet and grammar etc.) and thus mired with many difficulties.
>>>>
Sevaji, Can you explain your statement with a little more details or examples?

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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by Kayalvizhi on Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:33 pm

Hey, This Sadguru is speaking sense. He probably is close to Kundrakudi Adigalar in his views.

What is his background? Is he head of some temple?

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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:50 pm

FluteHolder wrote:All other languages in India, including in the neighborhood of Tamil (e.g. Malyalam, Telugu and Kannada) and almost as ancient and original as Tamil, took step over time to correct and overcome the deficiencies in them thus becoming modern languages with better and up-to-date alphabets, whereas Tamil (its speakers) did no such thing which led to that language (Tamil) still stuck in its ancient form (alphabet and grammar etc.) and thus mired with many difficulties.
>>>>
Sevaji, Can you explain your statement with a little more details or examples?
FHji, consider for example the letter "k" which currently in Tamil, due to the shortage of enough letters / consonants in Tamil alphabet, represents many other sounds / letters such as "k", "g", "h" etc. Naturally, it will lead to problems and confusion in vocabulary and pronunciation whenever new words (especially the nouns and names etc.) from other languages are written in Tamil, and vice versa. Here, in the following, is the Table showing Tamil consonants representing various letters / sounds in other languages.  

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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by garam_kuta on Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:41 am

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
FluteHolder wrote:

Sevaji, Can you explain your statement with a little more details or examples?
FHji, consider for example the letter "k" which currently in Tamil, due to the shortage of enough letters / consonants in Tamil alphabet, represents many other sounds / letters such as "k", "g", "h" etc. Naturally, it will lead to problems and confusion in vocabulary and pronunciation whenever new words (especially the nouns and names etc.) from other languages are written in Tamil, and vice versa. Here, in the following, is the Table showing Tamil consonants representing various letters / sounds in other languages.  


not necessarily. there is a rule which self-corrects this arbitrariness, i should think. it is to do with the immediate, next alphabet and such, so that any other random possibility of pronunciation is negated. I 'll try to get a link to an article on this....

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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by MaxEntropy_Man on Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:54 am

I wonder if Devnagiri has suitable alphabets for the click sound in certain African languages:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31zzMb3U0iY
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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by Hellsangel on Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:19 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:I wonder if Devnagiri has suitable alphabets for the click sound in certain African languages:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31zzMb3U0iY
Why, Il Professore? Are those African languages written in Devnagari?
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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by smArtha on Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:29 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:I wonder if Devnagiri has suitable alphabets for the click sound in certain African languages:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31zzMb3U0iY

Samskritham or for that matter no language in the world has all the phonetic sounds that a human is capable of producing. However, the reason for Samskritham excluding some phonetic sound is because every alphabet and its phonetic in samskritam is arrived at identifying which areas/nerve centers in the body need to be vibrated and its positive impact on the overall human system. Those that have negative or neutral impact had been deliberately not paired with an alphabet. That is the reason for not all phonemes making it to the language. No other language was engineered thus. Every other language just evolved with the sounds and symbols that folks of a region found comfort and made it a convention to communicate. With Samskritham that is not the case.

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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:13 pm

garam_kuta wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
FluteHolder wrote:

Sevaji, Can you explain your statement with a little more details or examples?
FHji, consider for example the letter "k" which currently in Tamil, due to the shortage of enough letters / consonants in Tamil alphabet, represents many other sounds / letters such as "k", "g", "h" etc. Naturally, it will lead to problems and confusion in vocabulary and pronunciation whenever new words (especially the nouns and names etc.) from other languages are written in Tamil, and vice versa. Here, in the following, is the Table showing Tamil consonants representing various letters / sounds in other languages.  


not necessarily. there is a rule which self-corrects this arbitrariness, i should think. it is to do with the immediate, next alphabet and such, so that any other random possibility of pronunciation is negated.  I 'll try to get a link to an article on this....
G_K, yes there is a rule on this, but that only makes things more cumbersome in Tamil, including loading superficially the basic "k" etc. in Tamil to represent / express more "foreign" sounds / letters (such as from Tamil's neighboring languages, e.g. Telugu and Malyalam etc.). Besides, most people (even Tamil speakers) either are unaware of the rule or have forgotten about it when they need it, just like yourself. In addition, the rule is easily subject to breakdown and confusion in the case of names / nouns exchanged between Tamil and other languages, especially when others (non-Tamils) engaged in the transliteration of Tamil writing have no clue about the special considerations in the rule.
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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by Vakavaka Pakapaka on Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:22 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
garam_kuta wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
FluteHolder wrote:

Sevaji, Can you explain your statement with a little more details or examples?
FHji, consider for example the letter "k" which currently in Tamil, due to the shortage of enough letters / consonants in Tamil alphabet, represents many other sounds / letters such as "k", "g", "h" etc. Naturally, it will lead to problems and confusion in vocabulary and pronunciation whenever new words (especially the nouns and names etc.) from other languages are written in Tamil, and vice versa. Here, in the following, is the Table showing Tamil consonants representing various letters / sounds in other languages.  


not necessarily. there is a rule which self-corrects this arbitrariness, i should think. it is to do with the immediate, next alphabet and such, so that any other random possibility of pronunciation is negated.  I 'll try to get a link to an article on this....
G_K, yes there is a rule on this, but that only makes things more cumbersome in Tamil, including loading superficially the basic "k" etc. in Tamil to represent / express more "foreign" sounds / letters (such as from Tamil's neighboring languages, e.g. Telugu and Malyalam etc.). Besides, most people (even Tamil speakers) either are unaware of the rule or have forgotten about it when they need it, just like yourself. In addition, the rule is easily subject to breakdown and confusion in the case of names / nouns exchanged between Tamil and other languages, especially when others (non-Tamils) engaged in the transliteration of Tamil writing have no clue about the special considerations in the rule.
As smArtha points out in another post, there are reasons why some sounds are not included in Sanskrit.

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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:24 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:I wonder if Devnagiri has suitable alphabets for the click sound in certain African languages:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31zzMb3U0iY
A complete click sound is not used as part of words, meaning that click just remains a separate click. So, linguistically it does not warrant a separate letter as  part of the alphabet to represent the click sound. As for the partial click type effect in some words, there are some in Hindi etc. and taken care of by using Retroflex and Dental consonants (t, tt etc.) in Devanagari script.
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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by MaxEntropy_Man on Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:34 pm

When loan words are borrowed from other languages, the sounds never transcribe perfectly even from neighboring languages. This is the case for example with French loan words in English which are innumerable. Japanese has many loan words from English and they seamlessly absorb them. Beer in English is Biru, whiskey is U~siuki and so on. There is no prayer of loan words surviving their original phonology when they cross linguistic boundaries.
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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:44 pm

smArtha wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:I wonder if Devnagiri has suitable alphabets for the click sound in certain African languages:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31zzMb3U0iY

Samskritham or for that matter no language in the world has all the phonetic sounds that a human is capable of producing. However, the reason for Samskritham excluding some phonetic sound is because every alphabet and its phonetic in samskritam is arrived at identifying which areas/nerve centers in the body need to be vibrated and its positive impact on the overall human system. Those that have negative or neutral impact had been deliberately not paired with an alphabet. That is the reason for not all phonemes making it to the language. No other language was engineered thus. Every other language just evolved with the sounds and symbols that folks of a region found comfort and made it a convention to communicate. With Samskritham that is not the case.
Tamil has completely shut the door to account for any additional / new sounds by keeping its ancient script intact / changeless. Instead, it relies on loading its existing letters ("k" etc.) superficially through grammatical rules to account for new sounds / letters in / from other languages, which certainly is more difficult / cumbersome way. As for some sounds which humans can make but are not a part of the alphabet as separate letters (in Devanagari script for example), that is mostly due to the lack of words based on such special sounds, and nothing else (e.g. negative or neutral impact on the body while making such sounds).
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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:52 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:When loan words are borrowed from other languages, the sounds never transcribe perfectly even from neighboring languages. This is the case for example with French loan words in English which are innumerable. Japanese has many loan words from English and they seamlessly absorb them. Beer in English is Biru, whiskey is U~siuki and so on. There is no prayer of loan words surviving their original phonology when they cross linguistic boundaries.
That effect is certainly increased when there are not enough letters in the alphabet.
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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by MaxEntropy_Man on Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:17 pm

The current script used in Tamil is not ancient, it is quite modern. It has undergone revision as recently as less than hundred years ago. What is ancient is the phonology. Any language should have an adequate script that can deal with its own phonology. There is no requirement that the script should be expanded to accommodate alien phonology. Loan words will be accommodated and absorbed consistent with the borrowing language's phonology. This is how it always has been and always will be.
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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by garam_kuta on Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:23 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
G_K, yes there is a rule on this, but that only makes things more cumbersome in Tamil, including loading superficially the basic "k" etc. in Tamil to represent / express more "foreign" sounds / letters (such as from Tamil's neighboring languages, e.g. Telugu and Malyalam etc.). Besides, most people (even Tamil speakers) either are unaware of the rule or have forgotten about it when they need it, just like yourself. In addition, the rule is easily subject to breakdown and confusion in the case of names / nouns exchanged between Tamil and other languages, especially when others (non-Tamils) engaged in the transliteration of Tamil writing have no clue about the special considerations in the rule.
uh oh..no way, my friend. I was merely saying that I needed to get a reference that is in english, for you.

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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by SomeProfile on Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:33 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:The current script used in Tamil is not ancient, it is quite modern. It has undergone revision as recently as less than hundred years ago. What is ancient is the phonology. Any language should have an adequate script that can deal with its own phonology. There is no requirement that the script should be expanded to accommodate alien phonology. Loan words will be accommodated and absorbed consistent with the borrowing language's phonology. This is how it always has been and always will be.

Except that Tamizh has not been adequate to even correctly write the names of a LOT of Tamizhars themselves! I bet most native Tamizhars on this forum cannot write their own names unambiguously in Tamizh. Unambiguously means - there is no confusion in pronuciation, each sound / syllable of their names has a distinct alphabet in Tamizh.

Example: the title of the Tamizh movie starring Rajnikanth and directed by Maniratnam. The way it is written in Tamizh, it could be pronounced in any one of the following ways:

DaLapadi
DaLapati
TaLapadi
TaLapati

WTF!

Poor Rajnikanth might be called RajnigAnt, RajnikAnd, RajnigAnd, RajnikAnt, the way it is written in Tamizh. Ridiculous!

There is no accommodation or consistency here. I have seen Tamizhars themselves pronounce these names in multiple different ways. Of course, I am under no delusion that any Tamizhars will accept this inadequacy in their language. When it comes to language, Tamizhars turn off all capacity for logic and reason.

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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by Vakavaka Pakapaka on Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:49 pm

SomeProfile wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:The current script used in Tamil is not ancient, it is quite modern. It has undergone revision as recently as less than hundred years ago. What is ancient is the phonology. Any language should have an adequate script that can deal with its own phonology. There is no requirement that the script should be expanded to accommodate alien phonology. Loan words will be accommodated and absorbed consistent with the borrowing language's phonology. This is how it always has been and always will be.

Except that Tamizh has not been adequate to even correctly write the names of a LOT of Tamizhars themselves! I bet most native Tamizhars on this forum cannot write their own names unambiguously in Tamizh. Unambiguously means - there is no confusion in pronuciation, each sound / syllable of their names has a distinct alphabet in Tamizh.

Example: the title of the Tamizh movie starring Rajnikanth and directed by Maniratnam. The way it is written in Tamizh, it could be pronounced in any one of the following ways:

DaLapadi
DaLapati
TaLapadi
TaLapati

WTF!

Poor Rajnikanth might be called RajnigAnt, RajnikAnd, RajnigAnd, RajnikAnt, the way it is written in Tamizh. Ridiculous!

There is no accommodation or consistency here. I have seen Tamizhars themselves pronounce these names in multiple different ways. Of course, I am under no delusion that any Tamizhars will accept this inadequacy in their language. When it comes to language, Tamizhars turn off all capacity for logic and reason.
Hmm.....

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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by Kayalvizhi on Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:38 pm

SomeProfile wrote:
Example: the title of the Tamizh movie starring Rajnikanth and directed by Maniratnam. The way it is written in Tamizh, it could be pronounced in any one of the following ways:

DaLapadi
DaLapati
TaLapadi
TaLapati


Type thaLapathi. It will produce தளபதி. There is no confusion if you know the rules. The problem is not with the language. It is with your lack of knowledge.

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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by Vakavaka Pakapaka on Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:35 pm

Kayalvizhi wrote:
SomeProfile wrote:
Example: the title of the Tamizh movie starring Rajnikanth and directed by Maniratnam. The way it is written in Tamizh, it could be pronounced in any one of the following ways:

DaLapadi
DaLapati
TaLapadi
TaLapati


Type thaLapathi. It will produce தளபதி. There is no confusion if you know the rules. The problem is not with the language. It is with your lack of knowledge.
Hey Kayer,
Which temble do you go to?

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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by MaxEntropy_Man on Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:42 pm

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Kayalvizhi wrote:
SomeProfile wrote:
Example: the title of the Tamizh movie starring Rajnikanth and directed by Maniratnam. The way it is written in Tamizh, it could be pronounced in any one of the following ways:

DaLapadi
DaLapati
TaLapadi
TaLapati


Type thaLapathi. It will produce தளபதி. There is no confusion if you know the rules. The problem is not with the language. It is with your lack of knowledge.
Hey Kayer,
Which temble do you go to?

Wrong ethnic group for that particular pronunciation stereotype. You are off by one contiguous state.
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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:31 am

SomeProfile wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:The current script used in Tamil is not ancient, it is quite modern. It has undergone revision as recently as less than hundred years ago. What is ancient is the phonology. Any language should have an adequate script that can deal with its own phonology. There is no requirement that the script should be expanded to accommodate alien phonology. Loan words will be accommodated and absorbed consistent with the borrowing language's phonology. This is how it always has been and always will be.

Except that Tamizh has not been adequate to even correctly write the names of a LOT of Tamizhars themselves! I bet most native Tamizhars on this forum cannot write their own names unambiguously in Tamizh. Unambiguously means - there is no confusion in pronuciation, each sound / syllable of their names has a distinct alphabet in Tamizh.

Example: the title of the Tamizh movie starring Rajnikanth and directed by Maniratnam. The way it is written in Tamizh, it could be pronounced in any one of the following ways:

DaLapadi
DaLapati
TaLapadi
TaLapati

WTF!

Poor Rajnikanth might be called RajnigAnt, RajnikAnd, RajnigAnd, RajnikAnt, the way it is written in Tamizh. Ridiculous!

There is no accommodation or consistency here. I have seen Tamizhars themselves pronounce these names in multiple different ways. Of course, I am under no delusion that any Tamizhars will accept this inadequacy in their language. When it comes to language, Tamizhars turn off all capacity for logic and reason.
SomeProfile, what you say, including your examples about the name of the movie as well as Rajnikanth's name in Tamil, is absolutely correct. Moreover, using the grammatical rule in Tamil to compensate for the lack of sufficient letters (consonants) in Tamil alphabet to achieve proper pronunciation and writing is like touching the nose with difficulty and awkwardly by wrapping the arm around the back of the neck (as in the case of grammatical rules, which may or may not work), instead of doing it easily and directly by just putting the hand on the nose (as in case of sufficient number of letters in the alphabet, which will always work). 

More examples of misleading and improper representation / translation (from English to Tamil to English), in spite of rules, 


Kul , Gul (in English) -->  குல் , குல்  (in Tamil) --> Gul , Gul (in English)
 
Dim , Tim (in English) --> டிம் , டிம்  (in Tamil) --> Tim , Tim (in English)
 
Pop , Bob (in English) --> பாப் , பாப் (in Tamil) --> Bob , Bob (in English)
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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by MaxEntropy_Man on Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:46 am

Rajnikanth is not a name of Tamil origin. In fact most Hindu names in TN are not of Tamil origin but Sanskritic origin. They will get incorporated in accordance with the local dialect. Most European Christian first names are of Aramaic origin, but they aren't anywhere close to their original Aramaic form. You don't see modern Aramaic speakers complaining about it, do you?

So here is some advice -- deal with it! I don't think even Rajani gAndhan will mind.
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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:30 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
SomeProfile wrote:
Except that Tamizh has not been adequate to even correctly write the names of a LOT of Tamizhars themselves! I bet most native Tamizhars on this forum cannot write their own names unambiguously in Tamizh. Unambiguously means - there is no confusion in pronuciation, each sound / syllable of their names has a distinct alphabet in Tamizh.

Example: the title of the Tamizh movie starring Rajnikanth and directed by Maniratnam. The way it is written in Tamizh, it could be pronounced in any one of the following ways:

DaLapadi
DaLapati
TaLapadi
TaLapati

WTF!

Poor Rajnikanth might be called RajnigAnt, RajnikAnd, RajnigAnd, RajnikAnt, the way it is written in Tamizh. Ridiculous!

There is no accommodation or consistency here. I have seen Tamizhars themselves pronounce these names in multiple different ways. Of course, I am under no delusion that any Tamizhars will accept this inadequacy in their language. When it comes to language, Tamizhars turn off all capacity for logic and reason.
SomeProfile, what you say, including your examples about the name of the movie as well as Rajnikanth's name in Tamil, is absolutely correct. Moreover, using the grammatical rule in Tamil to compensate for the lack of sufficient letters (consonants) in Tamil alphabet to achieve proper pronunciation and writing is like touching the nose with difficulty and awkwardly by wrapping the arm around the back of the neck (as in the case of grammatical rules, which may or may not work), instead of doing it easily and directly by just putting the hand on the nose (as in case of sufficient number of letters in the alphabet, which will always work). 

More examples of misleading and improper representation / translation (from English to Tamil to English), in spite of rules, 


Kul , Gul (in English) -->  குல் , குல்  (in Tamil) --> Gul , Gul (in English)
 
Dim , Tim (in English) --> டிம் , டிம்  (in Tamil) --> Tim , Tim (in English)
 
Pop , Bob (in English) --> பாப் , பாப் (in Tamil) --> Bob , Bob (in English)

Btw, for information only if anyone interested, the name "Rajnikant" has its roots in the Sanskrit language, as Rajni + Kant
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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by Vakavaka Pakapaka on Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:19 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Kayalvizhi wrote:
SomeProfile wrote:
Example: the title of the Tamizh movie starring Rajnikanth and directed by Maniratnam. The way it is written in Tamizh, it could be pronounced in any one of the following ways:

DaLapadi
DaLapati
TaLapadi
TaLapati


Type thaLapathi. It will produce தளபதி. There is no confusion if you know the rules. The problem is not with the language. It is with your lack of knowledge.
Hey Kayer,
Which temble do you go to?

Wrong ethnic group for that particular pronunciation stereotype. You are off by one contiguous state.
I bet Palghat Iyers went to tembles in TN as well.

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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by garam_kuta on Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:07 pm

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Kayalvizhi wrote:
SomeProfile wrote:
Example: the title of the Tamizh movie starring Rajnikanth and directed by Maniratnam. The way it is written in Tamizh, it could be pronounced in any one of the following ways:

DaLapadi
DaLapati
TaLapadi
TaLapati


Type thaLapathi. It will produce தளபதி. There is no confusion if you know the rules. The problem is not with the language. It is with your lack of knowledge.
Hey Kayer,
Which temble do you go to?

Wrong ethnic group for that particular pronunciation stereotype. You are off by one contiguous state.
I bet Palghat Iyers went to tembles in TN as well.

Awww.... KV is pAlakkAdu iyer???...hmm Shocked scratchRazz

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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by garam_kuta on Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:17 pm

I meant to say this right off the bat -
-that the biggest irony is: we've been discussing all this in probably one of the most familiarity-dependent languages; albeit its largest vocab, borrowed or not, it's one of the most arbitrary types, so empirical, that without knowing the words a priori, it's a nightmare for a non-native speaker.

PS: I don't miss rashmun, or his massah, who is yet to appear in milk cartons.

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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by garam-kuta on Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:39 pm

SomeProfile wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:The current script used in Tamil is not ancient, it is quite modern. It has undergone revision as recently as less than hundred years ago. What is ancient is the phonology. Any language should have an adequate script that can deal with its own phonology. There is no requirement that the script should be expanded to accommodate alien phonology. Loan words will be accommodated and absorbed consistent with the borrowing language's phonology. This is how it always has been and always will be.

Except that Tamizh has not been adequate to even correctly write the names of a LOT of Tamizhars themselves! I bet most native Tamizhars on this forum cannot write their own names unambiguously in Tamizh. Unambiguously means - there is no confusion in pronuciation, each sound / syllable of their names has a distinct alphabet in Tamizh.

Example: the title of the Tamizh movie starring Rajnikanth and directed by Maniratnam. The way it is written in Tamizh, it could be pronounced in any one of the following ways:

DaLapadi
DaLapati
TaLapadi
TaLapati

WTF!

Poor Rajnikanth might be called RajnigAnt, RajnikAnd, RajnigAnd, RajnikAnt, the way it is written in Tamizh. Ridiculous!

There is no accommodation or consistency here. I have seen Tamizhars themselves pronounce these names in multiple different ways. Of course, I am under no delusion that any Tamizhars will accept this inadequacy in their language. When it comes to language, Tamizhars turn off all capacity for logic and reason.
You missed the whole set of ba(hehehe) instead of pa , like dalabati

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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by garam-kuta on Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:40 pm

garam_kuta wrote:

PS: I don't miss rashmun, or his massah, who is yet to appear in milk cartons.
cute doggy . who is shyam sundar?

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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:29 am

garam_kuta wrote:I meant to say this right off the bat -
-that the biggest irony is: we've been discussing all this in probably one of the most familiarity-dependent languages; albeit its largest vocab, borrowed or not, it's one of the most arbitrary types, so empirical, that without knowing the words a priori, it's a nightmare for a non-native speaker.

PS: I don't miss rashmun, or his massah, who is yet to appear in milk cartons.
The solution is quite easy and simple which will benefit both the native and non-native speakers / users of Tamil. Instead of relying on the superficial grammatical rules which are hard to keep track of and likely to breakdown anytime when a new / unfamiliar word appears / encountered and which needlessly make the language (Tamil) more difficult to learn, use and develop, simply expand the current / ancient alphabet in Tamil by adding more letters / consonants, like the speakers of Malayalam, Kannada and Telugu did long time ago.
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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:56 am

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
garam_kuta wrote:I meant to say this right off the bat -
-that the biggest irony is: we've been discussing all this in probably one of the most familiarity-dependent languages; albeit its largest vocab, borrowed or not, it's one of the most arbitrary types, so empirical, that without knowing the words a priori, it's a nightmare for a non-native speaker.

PS: I don't miss rashmun, or his massah, who is yet to appear in milk cartons.
The solution is quite easy and simple which will benefit both the native and non-native speakers / users of Tamil. Instead of relying on the superficial grammatical rules which are hard to keep track of and likely to breakdown anytime when a new / unfamiliar word appears / encountered and which needlessly make the language (Tamil) more difficult to learn, use and develop, simply expand the current / ancient alphabet in Tamil by adding more letters / consonants, like the speakers of Malayalam, Kannada and Telugu did long time ago.
btw, just curious! 
Do Tamil dictionaries also give info. on words' origins (e.g. from Sanskrit, as in the case of Tamil word 'thaLapathi', meaning 'commander', and rooted probably in Sanskrit -- as 'thala-pati' in Sanskrit meaning 'territorial leader'), so that it is helpful in reading, writing and pronouncing the word properly in Tamil?
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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by Kayalvizhi on Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:35 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
btw, just curious! 
Do Tamil dictionaries also give info. on words' origins (e.g. from Sanskrit, as in the case of Tamil word 'thaLapathi', meaning 'commander', and rooted probably in Sanskrit -- as 'thala-pati' in Sanskrit meaning 'territorial leader'), so that it is helpful in reading, writing and pronouncing the word properly in Tamil?

Yes. There is a multi volume dictionary published by TN gov. I do not remember the name. It was originally edited by the legendary Tamil linguist Devaneyan (aka Paavaanar). Work started when MGR was the CM.

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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:29 pm

Kayalvizhi wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
btw, just curious! 
Do Tamil dictionaries also give info. on words' origins (e.g. from Sanskrit, as in the case of Tamil word 'thaLapathi', meaning 'commander', and rooted probably in Sanskrit -- as 'thala-pati' in Sanskrit meaning 'territorial leader'), so that it is helpful in reading, writing and pronouncing the word properly in Tamil?

Yes. There is a multi volume dictionary published by TN gov. I do not remember the name. It was originally edited by the legendary Tamil linguist Devaneyan (aka Paavaanar). Work started when MGR was the CM.
Thanks. But it does not seem to work in real life as indicated from the example of 'ThaLapathi', spelled and pronounced by people wrongly as DaLapadi, DaLapati, TaLapadi or TaLapati (as mentioned earlier by SomeProfile), in spite of Sanskrit origin (thala-pati) for Tamil 'thaLapathi'. 
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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by confuzzled dude on Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:11 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Thanks. But it does not seem to work in real life as indicated from the example of 'ThaLapathi', spelled and pronounced by people wrongly as DaLapadi, DaLapati, TaLapadi or TaLapati (as mentioned earlier by SomeProfile), in spite of Sanskrit origin (thala-pati) for Tamil 'thaLapathi'. 
Could this [confusion] be due to your lack of familiarity/understanding of proto-dravidian languages?

http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/brown_query.py?qs=dalamu

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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Post by Seva Lamberdar on Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:43 am

confuzzled dude wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Thanks. But it does not seem to work in real life as indicated from the example of 'ThaLapathi', spelled and pronounced by people wrongly as DaLapadi, DaLapati, TaLapadi or TaLapati (as mentioned earlier by SomeProfile), in spite of Sanskrit origin (thala-pati) for Tamil 'thaLapathi'. 
Could this [confusion] be due to your lack of familiarity/understanding of proto-dravidian languages?

http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/brown_query.py?qs=dalamu
As indicated in the previous comments on the current thread, this "confusion" is mostly the outcome of a lack of sufficient letters in Tamil alphabet to suitably represent in pronunciation and writing other (non-Tamil) words, e.g. from Sanskrit etc. which have expanded alphabets with extra letters to signify more sounds.
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Re: Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

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