Re: malaysian airlines flight

by Seva Lamberdar Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:43 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
southindian wrote:It was the doppler shift that helped track position of the plane, and not coordinates from the plane as indicated by some.

The doppler shift from a geostationary satellite helped track the plane.

CNN says so...

that's not exactly accurate. the pings and the time for the roundtrip of the signal combined with euclidean geometry gave the circles that they were showing earlier. they eliminated half of it based on fuel considerations. that left the northern and southern arcs. analysis of the doppler shifts helped further to eliminate the northern arc. if the plane was traveling in the northern direction (getting closer to the satellite's position) the frequency would have shifted to higher values in each successive ping (before it finally got lower after passing the satellite and heading further north). the fact that the frequency values were shifted lower and got lower still with each progressive ping indicated that the plane was in fact traveling away from the satellite, i.e. the southern direction all along. at no point was it flying closer to the satellite.

tracking the final position of the plane required further assumptions about altitude, speed of flying when on autopilot, wind speeds, and total fuel volume.

These people / specialists in the beginning were talking about scanning more than a million square miles of area in the ocean to look for the crash site for the plane. Why was that? Even to a layperson, the area of search would be no more than 50,000 (500*50*2) square miles area at the end (point of final ping) along the arc (extrapolated curve drawn using the ping points, about 4 or 5 points). Btw 50,000 sq miles figure in the above corresponds to the maximum distance (500 miles) traveled by the plane in one hour (max plane speed 500 mph) after the final ping as well as the area of crash containing debris being within 50 miles on each side of that path (500 mile distance).

by southindian Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:34 pm

Inmarsat explains Doppler Pings tracking of the aircraft through geostationary satellite.

http://www.inmarsat.com/news/malaysian-government-publishes-mh370-details-uk-aaib/

The plane was in good flying condition as it did for additional 7 hours after making the left turn. The engines seemed fine, there was power and auto-pilot may have been working fine.

All kinds of communication may be gone, so the plane became deaf and dumb. Both pilots became incapacitated.

I'm also hoping passengers died much too early in the flight.

Its difficult to imagine passenger trauma on this flight for 6+ hours, in a deaf/dumb pilotless plane.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:38 pm

that engineer who came up with the doppler idea is worth his weight in gold. brilliant and inspired. i hope inmarsat treats him (or her) well.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:00 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:based on everything we know electrical/mechanical issue followed by pilot(s)' incapacitation followed plane being flown by autopilot until fuel reserves were exhausted seems like the most likely scenario. looks like their attempt to save the plane from whatever the problem was succeeded, but they got incapacitated in the process. i only hope nobody was alive or at least conscious when the plane eventually plunged into the ocean.

this is absolutely the worst and most scary scenario i can imagine. waiting with full knowledge of a certain watery death. it's terrifying to imagine:

http://www.smh.com.au/world/search-for-mh370-how-cockpits-security-door-may-have-left-conscious-passengers-helpless-in-midair-20140326-zqn41.html

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:47 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:based on everything we know electrical/mechanical issue followed by pilot(s)' incapacitation followed plane being flown by autopilot until fuel reserves were exhausted seems like the most likely scenario. looks like their attempt to save the plane from whatever the problem was succeeded, but they got incapacitated in the process. i only hope nobody was alive or at least conscious when the plane eventually plunged into the ocean.

this is absolutely the worst and most scary scenario i can imagine. waiting with full knowledge of a certain watery death. it's terrifying to imagine:

http://www.smh.com.au/world/search-for-mh370-how-cockpits-security-door-may-have-left-conscious-passengers-helpless-in-midair-20140326-zqn41.html

May have, perhaps, might have and could have....

One thing that was corroborated and well established fact: the left turn was programmed into the system a good 12 min before the "All right. Good night"

Why ?

Palin's guess is better. when the fuel was exhausted an alien UFO sucked the plane upward and delivered it to the heaven.

by nevada Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:16 pm

Will the black box(if found) solve the mystery?

by FluteHolder Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:43 am

nevada wrote:Will the black box(if found) solve the mystery?

It looks like it may not help if black box is turned off intentionally as this following theory suggests.

The possibility of pilot suicide

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/the-possibility-of-pilot-suicide/article5831677.ece?homepage=true

Taking MI 185 and MH 370, what stands out are the initial sequences which are similar. The Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) had stopped in MI 185 before the co-pilot had reported his position to Jakarta radar control. In MH 370, the ACARs had stopped before the co-pilot reported “all right, goodnight” to Air Traffic Control. While the SilkAir co-pilot was highly experienced, the Malaysian co-pilot was new to Boeing 777. This was his first flight without a safety pilot on board. There is a likelihood that the Digital Flight Data Recorder (DFDR) was turned off on MH 370, soon after the CVR was turned off, as it happened in MI 185.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:14 am

FluteHolder wrote:
nevada wrote:Will the black box(if found) solve the mystery?
It looks like it may not help if black box is turned off intentionally as this following theory suggests.

The possibility of pilot suicide

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/the-possibility-of-pilot-suicide/article5831677.ece?homepage=true

Taking MI 185 and MH 370, what stands out are the initial sequences which are similar. The Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) had stopped in MI 185 before the co-pilot had reported his position to Jakarta radar control. In MH 370, the ACARs had stopped before the co-pilot reported “all right, goodnight” to Air Traffic Control. While the SilkAir co-pilot was highly experienced, the Malaysian co-pilot was new to Boeing 777. This was his first flight without a safety pilot on board. There is a likelihood that the Digital Flight Data Recorder (DFDR) was turned off on MH 370, soon after the CVR was turned off, as it happened in MI 185.

i know you guys love theories based on hijacking/terrorism/pilot suicide etc for reasons best known to yourself, but there is a more mundane reason why the CVR may not be useful in this case. if the pilots had fallen unconscious they may not have said anything during the last half hour of the journey. and the CVR erases its contents every half hour and records over. so all we may hear is some clicks and buzzes, basically electronic noises from the cockpit. i know that's not as exciting as intentional turning off of the CVR, but there you have it.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:15 am

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:based on everything we know electrical/mechanical issue followed by pilot(s)' incapacitation followed plane being flown by autopilot until fuel reserves were exhausted seems like the most likely scenario. looks like their attempt to save the plane from whatever the problem was succeeded, but they got incapacitated in the process. i only hope nobody was alive or at least conscious when the plane eventually plunged into the ocean.

this is absolutely the worst and most scary scenario i can imagine. waiting with full knowledge of a certain watery death. it's terrifying to imagine:

http://www.smh.com.au/world/search-for-mh370-how-cockpits-security-door-may-have-left-conscious-passengers-helpless-in-midair-20140326-zqn41.html

May have, perhaps, might have and could have....

One thing that was corroborated and well established fact: the left turn was programmed into the system a good 12 min before the "All right. Good night"

Why ?

Palin's guess is better. when the fuel was exhausted an alien UFO sucked the plane upward and delivered it to the heaven.

not true. that's been established as bogus fact. you posted this before and i corrected it, but it doesn't matter because keeping that alive keeps alive many of the pet theories about terrorism and hijack by pilot.

by doofus_maximus Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:07 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
FluteHolder wrote:
nevada wrote:Will the black box(if found) solve the mystery?
It looks like it may not help if black box is turned off intentionally as this following theory suggests.

The possibility of pilot suicide

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/the-possibility-of-pilot-suicide/article5831677.ece?homepage=true

Taking MI 185 and MH 370, what stands out are the initial sequences which are similar. The Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) had stopped in MI 185 before the co-pilot had reported his position to Jakarta radar control. In MH 370, the ACARs had stopped before the co-pilot reported “all right, goodnight” to Air Traffic Control. While the SilkAir co-pilot was highly experienced, the Malaysian co-pilot was new to Boeing 777. This was his first flight without a safety pilot on board. There is a likelihood that the Digital Flight Data Recorder (DFDR) was turned off on MH 370, soon after the CVR was turned off, as it happened in MI 185.

i know you guys love theories based on hijacking/terrorism/pilot suicide etc for reasons best known to yourself, but there is a more mundane reason why the CVR may not be useful in this case. if the pilots had fallen unconscious they may not have said anything during the last half hour of the journey. and the CVR erases its contents every half hour and records over. so all we may hear is some clicks and buzzes, basically electronic noises from the cockpit. i know that's not as exciting as intentional turning off of the CVR, but there you have it.

Even the silence could tell the investigators something.

by Propagandhi711 Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:03 am

doofus_maximus wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
FluteHolder wrote:
nevada wrote:Will the black box(if found) solve the mystery?
It looks like it may not help if black box is turned off intentionally as this following theory suggests.

The possibility of pilot suicide

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/the-possibility-of-pilot-suicide/article5831677.ece?homepage=true

Taking MI 185 and MH 370, what stands out are the initial sequences which are similar. The Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) had stopped in MI 185 before the co-pilot had reported his position to Jakarta radar control. In MH 370, the ACARs had stopped before the co-pilot reported “all right, goodnight” to Air Traffic Control. While the SilkAir co-pilot was highly experienced, the Malaysian co-pilot was new to Boeing 777. This was his first flight without a safety pilot on board. There is a likelihood that the Digital Flight Data Recorder (DFDR) was turned off on MH 370, soon after the CVR was turned off, as it happened in MI 185.

i know you guys love theories based on hijacking/terrorism/pilot suicide etc for reasons best known to yourself, but there is a more mundane reason why the CVR may not be useful in this case. if the pilots had fallen unconscious they may not have said anything during the last half hour of the journey. and the CVR erases its contents every half hour and records over. so all we may hear is some clicks and buzzes, basically electronic noises from the cockpit. i know that's not as exciting as intentional turning off of the CVR, but there you have it.

Even the silence could tell the investigators something.

what's up doofusan...long time no see

by Seva Lamberdar Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:54 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:that engineer who came up with the doppler idea is worth his weight in gold. brilliant and inspired. i hope inmarsat treats him (or her) well.

The Doppler effect idea / application in such situations (involving one path for the transmitter receding or going away from the message receiver and the other path somewhat in the direction or approaching the message receiver) should be obvious to the people working in the field of vibrations and acoustics.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:42 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:that engineer who came up with the doppler idea is worth his weight in gold. brilliant and inspired. i hope inmarsat treats him (or her) well.

The Doppler effect idea / application in such situations (involving one path for the transmitter receding or going away from the message receiver and the other path somewhat in the direction or approaching the message receiver) should be obvious to the people working in the field of vibrations and acoustics.

IMO everything looks obvious after the fact. inmarsat's claim is that analysis of doppler shifts have never before been used to narrow down a lost plane's flight path and last location. i believe them if only for the fact it hasn't been contradicted publicly. it wasn't obvious to me and i do understand the physics though i don't work in the aerospace industry.

and we all had the opportunity to suggest this method for about two weeks before inmarsat published their analysis. nobody did.

by michelle2 Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:33 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:that engineer who came up with the doppler idea is worth his weight in gold. brilliant and inspired. i hope inmarsat treats him (or her) well.

The Doppler effect idea / application in such situations (involving one path for the transmitter receding or going away from the message receiver and the other path somewhat in the direction or approaching the message receiver) should be obvious to the people working in the field of vibrations and acoustics.

IMO everything looks obvious after the fact. inmarsat's claim is that analysis of doppler shifts have never before been used to narrow down a lost plane's flight path and last location. i believe them if only for the fact it hasn't been contradicted publicly. it wasn't obvious to me and i do understand the physics though i don't work in the aerospace industry.

and we all had the opportunity to suggest this method for about two weeks before inmarsat published their analysis. nobody did.

i don't think anyone has to have worked in vibrations, acoustics, or the aerospace industry to understand or apply the doppler effect/shift; it's fairly elementary physics. whether one uses it or not depends on one's problem-solving ability. ("given the data, how can one derive useful conclusions from it on the plane's path?")

this was a case where anyone could have received favourable publicity and/or money for performing analysis based on sound* (<--look, bhenkatrao, look!) principles and proposing a plausible solution. i am surprised that no one did so before inmarsat did. either inmarsat is exaggerating or the world is extraordinarily deficient in problem-solving ability.

* i realize that the signals are not sound waves, but electromagnetic.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:39 pm

How come there is ABSOLUTELY no comments from US or Russia of any data from their Gazillion satellites trotting around the globe?

I suspect they would not want to reveal ANYTHING as it would outline the capabilities of their satellites. US satellites are known to be capable of reading Number plates and Tags almost 15 years ago (with ago.)

Strange...

P.S. ***this was a case where anyone could have received favourable publicity and/or money for performing analysis based on sound* (<--look, bhenkatrao, look!) principles and proposing a plausible solution.***

I am so very impressed with the brilliance of SuCHers.

by harharmahadev Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:45 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:How come there is ABSOLUTELY no comments from US or Russia of any data from their Gazillion satellites trotting around the globe?

I suspect they would not want to reveal ANYTHING as it would outline the capabilities of their satellites. US satellites are known to be capable of reading Number plates and Tags almost 15 years ago (with ago.)

Strange...

P.S. ***this was a case where anyone could have received favourable publicity and/or money for performing analysis based on sound* (<--look, bhenkatrao, look!) principles and proposing a plausible solution.***

I am so very impressed with the brilliance of SuCHers.

Why should US spend any time looking for missing Malaysians? Muft ka chandan ghiss mere nandan!!

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Mar 26, 2014 5:18 pm

michelle2 wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:that engineer who came up with the doppler idea is worth his weight in gold. brilliant and inspired. i hope inmarsat treats him (or her) well.

The Doppler effect idea / application in such situations (involving one path for the transmitter receding or going away from the message receiver and the other path somewhat in the direction or approaching the message receiver) should be obvious to the people working in the field of vibrations and acoustics.

IMO everything looks obvious after the fact. inmarsat's claim is that analysis of doppler shifts have never before been used to narrow down a lost plane's flight path and last location. i believe them if only for the fact it hasn't been contradicted publicly. it wasn't obvious to me and i do understand the physics though i don't work in the aerospace industry.

and we all had the opportunity to suggest this method for about two weeks before inmarsat published their analysis. nobody did.
i don't think anyone has to have worked in vibrations, acoustics, or the aerospace industry to understand or apply the doppler effect/shift; it's fairly elementary physics. whether one uses it or not depends on one's problem-solving ability. ("given the data, how can one derive useful conclusions from it on the plane's path?")

this was a case where anyone could have received favourable publicity and/or money for performing analysis based on sound* (<--look, bhenkatrao, look!) principles and proposing a plausible solution. i am surprised that no one did so before inmarsat did. either inmarsat is exaggerating or the world is extraordinarily deficient in problem-solving ability.

* i realize that the signals are not sound waves, but electromagnetic.

fair enough, but this could also be an instance of a simple and elegant idea being used in this context for the first time. it's rare, but one does have the "why didn't i think of that" moments.

by Seva Lamberdar Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:12 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
michelle2 wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:that engineer who came up with the doppler idea is worth his weight in gold. brilliant and inspired. i hope inmarsat treats him (or her) well.

The Doppler effect idea / application in such situations (involving one path for the transmitter receding or going away from the message receiver and the other path somewhat in the direction or approaching the message receiver) should be obvious to the people working in the field of vibrations and acoustics.

IMO everything looks obvious after the fact. inmarsat's claim is that analysis of doppler shifts have never before been used to narrow down a lost plane's flight path and last location. i believe them if only for the fact it hasn't been contradicted publicly. it wasn't obvious to me and i do understand the physics though i don't work in the aerospace industry.

and we all had the opportunity to suggest this method for about two weeks before inmarsat published their analysis. nobody did.
i don't think anyone has to have worked in vibrations, acoustics, or the aerospace industry to understand or apply the doppler effect/shift; it's fairly elementary physics. whether one uses it or not depends on one's problem-solving ability. ("given the data, how can one derive useful conclusions from it on the plane's path?")

this was a case where anyone could have received favourable publicity and/or money for performing analysis based on sound* (<--look, bhenkatrao, look!) principles and proposing a plausible solution. i am surprised that no one did so before inmarsat did. either inmarsat is exaggerating or the world is extraordinarily deficient in problem-solving ability.

* i realize that the signals are not sound waves, but electromagnetic.

fair enough, but this could also be an instance of a simple and elegant idea being used in this context for the first time. it's rare, but one does have the "why didn't i think of that" moments.

The best part in this application of Doppler effect, related to the missing MH plane, seems to be in discarding the northern arc (route) altogether, without the plane even traveling that route and producing the respective (northern Doppler) readings. In other words, the southern arc (route) Doppler readings (with respect to the satellite in the geostationary orbit above the equator) were sufficient to discard the possibility of the northern travel /flight. That was reducing the area of search for the missing plane by half right from the beginning --- huge savings in the time, effort, money and resources.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Thu Mar 27, 2014 11:43 am

harharmahadev wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:How come there is ABSOLUTELY no comments from US or Russia of any data from their Gazillion satellites trotting around the globe?

I suspect they would not want to reveal ANYTHING as it would outline the capabilities of their satellites. US satellites are known to be capable of reading Number plates and Tags almost 15 years ago (with ago.)

Strange...

P.S. ***this was a case where anyone could have received favourable publicity and/or money for performing analysis based on sound* (<--look, bhenkatrao, look!) principles and proposing a plausible solution.***

I am so very impressed with the brilliance of SuCHers.

Why should US spend any time looking for missing Malaysians? Muft ka chandan ghiss mere nandan!!

You are wrong... There is nothing more efficient for governments to research and prove their scientific theories using others misery. All power - notably the US - is an expert in that. The reason the US has not uttered a single word is their Pentagon satellites are the most sophisticated and they would not want to reveal - in any way - their capabilities.

These satellites are talking about 0.5m resolution and I remember reading an article where the US spy satellites was able to read the front page news caption from a newspaper that ws being read by a man - 10-15 yrs ago.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:48 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:

The best part in this application of Doppler effect, related to the missing MH plane, seems to be in discarding the northern arc (route) altogether, without the plane even traveling that route and producing the respective (northern Doppler) readings. In other words, the southern arc (route) Doppler readings (with respect to the satellite in the geostationary orbit above the equator) were sufficient to discard the possibility of the northern travel /flight. That was reducing the area of search for the missing plane by half right from the beginning --- huge savings in the time, effort, money and resources.

i thought we had already covered all that.

by Seva Lamberdar Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:55 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:

The best part in this application of Doppler effect, related to the missing MH plane, seems to be in discarding the northern arc (route) altogether, without the plane even traveling that route and producing the respective (northern Doppler) readings. In other words, the southern arc (route) Doppler readings (with respect to the satellite in the geostationary orbit above the equator) were sufficient to discard the possibility of the northern travel /flight. That was reducing the area of search for the missing plane by half right from the beginning --- huge savings in the time, effort, money and resources.

i thought we had already covered all that.

I thought I will highlight it in terms of its significance. Btw I didn't see its mention here earlier (probably missed it).

by harharmahadev Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:16 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:

The best part in this application of Doppler effect, related to the missing MH plane, seems to be in discarding the northern arc (route) altogether, without the plane even traveling that route and producing the respective (northern Doppler) readings. In other words, the southern arc (route) Doppler readings (with respect to the satellite in the geostationary orbit above the equator) were sufficient to discard the possibility of the northern travel /flight. That was reducing the area of search for the missing plane by half right from the beginning --- huge savings in the time, effort, money and resources.

i thought we had already covered all that.

I thought I will highlight it in terms of its significance. Btw I didn't see its mention here earlier (probably missed it).

Next time, pay attention!

by Seva Lamberdar Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:25 pm

harharmahadev wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:

The best part in this application of Doppler effect, related to the missing MH plane, seems to be in discarding the northern arc (route) altogether, without the plane even traveling that route and producing the respective (northern Doppler) readings. In other words, the southern arc (route) Doppler readings (with respect to the satellite in the geostationary orbit above the equator) were sufficient to discard the possibility of the northern travel /flight. That was reducing the area of search for the missing plane by half right from the beginning --- huge savings in the time, effort, money and resources.

i thought we had already covered all that.

I thought I will highlight it in terms of its significance. Btw I didn't see its mention here earlier (probably missed it).

Next time, pay attention!

Show me where it was mentioned before on this thread that the use of doppler data for the plane from the satellite led to the discarding of the northern arc.

by indophile Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:33 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
harharmahadev wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:

The best part in this application of Doppler effect, related to the missing MH plane, seems to be in discarding the northern arc (route) altogether, without the plane even traveling that route and producing the respective (northern Doppler) readings. In other words, the southern arc (route) Doppler readings (with respect to the satellite in the geostationary orbit above the equator) were sufficient to discard the possibility of the northern travel /flight. That was reducing the area of search for the missing plane by half right from the beginning --- huge savings in the time, effort, money and resources.

i thought we had already covered all that.

I thought I will highlight it in terms of its significance. Btw I didn't see its mention here earlier (probably missed it).

Next time, pay attention!

Show me where it was mentioned before on this thread that the use of doppler data for the plane from the satellite led to the discarding of the northern arc.

I remember seeing it too Sevaji. This thread is already 6 pages long. It could be in one of the previous pages.

by Seva Lamberdar Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:45 pm

indophile wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
harharmahadev wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

i thought we had already covered all that.

I thought I will highlight it in terms of its significance. Btw I didn't see its mention here earlier (probably missed it).

Next time, pay attention!

Show me where it was mentioned before on this thread that the use of doppler data for the plane from the satellite led to the discarding of the northern arc.
I remember seeing it too Sevaji. This thread is already 6 pages long. It could be in one of the previous pages.

Perhaps so, Indoji. But I would like to see the actual wording, especially if there was any explanation on why the northern arc was rejected without the plane actually generating any doppler data on that route.

by indophile Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:52 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
indophile wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
harharmahadev wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:

I thought I will highlight it in terms of its significance. Btw I didn't see its mention here earlier (probably missed it).

Next time, pay attention!

Show me where it was mentioned before on this thread that the use of doppler data for the plane from the satellite led to the discarding of the northern arc.
I remember seeing it too Sevaji. This thread is already 6 pages long. It could be in one of the previous pages.

Perhaps so, Indoji. But I would like to see the actual wording, especially if there was any explanation on why the northern arc was rejected without the plane actually generating any doppler data on that route.

I don't have the energy to do that. Finding that comment may be as hard as finding the plane black box in the Indian Ocean.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:56 pm

indophile wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
indophile wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
harharmahadev wrote:

Next time, pay attention!

Show me where it was mentioned before on this thread that the use of doppler data for the plane from the satellite led to the discarding of the northern arc.
I remember seeing it too Sevaji. This thread is already 6 pages long. It could be in one of the previous pages.

Perhaps so, Indoji. But I would like to see the actual wording, especially if there was any explanation on why the northern arc was rejected without the plane actually generating any doppler data on that route.
I don't have the energy to do that. Finding that comment may be as hard as finding the plane black box in the Indian Ocean.

Here...on page 5...

by indophile Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:58 pm

So there's hope they may find the blackbox 4 miles below in the ocean. Smile

by Seva Lamberdar Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:08 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
indophile wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
indophile wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:

Show me where it was mentioned before on this thread that the use of doppler data for the plane from the satellite led to the discarding of the northern arc.
I remember seeing it too Sevaji. This thread is already 6 pages long. It could be in one of the previous pages.

Perhaps so, Indoji. But I would like to see the actual wording, especially if there was any explanation on why the northern arc was rejected without the plane actually generating any doppler data on that route.
I don't have the energy to do that. Finding that comment may be as hard as finding the plane black box in the Indian Ocean.

Here...on page 5...

Thanks.

by harharmahadev Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:24 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
indophile wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
indophile wrote:
I remember seeing it too Sevaji. This thread is already 6 pages long. It could be in one of the previous pages.

Perhaps so, Indoji. But I would like to see the actual wording, especially if there was any explanation on why the northern arc was rejected without the plane actually generating any doppler data on that route.
I don't have the energy to do that. Finding that comment may be as hard as finding the plane black box in the Indian Ocean.

Here...on page 5...

Thanks.

No problem.

by southindian Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:55 pm

3 days to April 1st.

Malaysian Airlines will then clear the hoax.

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:01 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
indophile wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
harharmahadev wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:

I thought I will highlight it in terms of its significance. Btw I didn't see its mention here earlier (probably missed it).

Next time, pay attention!

Show me where it was mentioned before on this thread that the use of doppler data for the plane from the satellite led to the discarding of the northern arc.
I remember seeing it too Sevaji. This thread is already 6 pages long. It could be in one of the previous pages.

Perhaps so, Indoji. But I would like to see the actual wording, especially if there was any explanation on why the northern arc was rejected without the plane actually generating any doppler data on that route.

this post., which i reproduce below for your benefit:

that's not exactly accurate. the pings and the time for the roundtrip of the signal combined with euclidean geometry gave the circles that they were showing earlier. they eliminated half of it based on fuel considerations. that left the northern and southern arcs. analysis of the doppler shifts helped further to eliminate the northern arc. if the plane was traveling in the northern direction (getting closer to the satellite's position) the frequency would have shifted to higher values in each successive ping (before it finally got lower after passing the satellite and heading further north). the fact that the frequency values were shifted lower and got lower still with each progressive ping indicated that the plane was in fact traveling away from the satellite, i.e. the southern direction all along. at no point was it flying closer to the satellite.

tracking the final position of the plane required further assumptions about altitude, speed of flying when on autopilot, wind speeds, and total fuel volume.

by rawemotions Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:00 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
indophile wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
harharmahadev wrote:

Next time, pay attention!

Show me where it was mentioned before on this thread that the use of doppler data for the plane from the satellite led to the discarding of the northern arc.
I remember seeing it too Sevaji. This thread is already 6 pages long. It could be in one of the previous pages.

Perhaps so, Indoji. But I would like to see the actual wording, especially if there was any explanation on why the northern arc was rejected without the plane actually generating any doppler data on that route.

this post., which i reproduce below for your benefit:

that's not exactly accurate. the pings and the time for the roundtrip of the signal combined with euclidean geometry gave the circles that they were showing earlier. they eliminated half of it based on fuel considerations. that left the northern and southern arcs. analysis of the doppler shifts helped further to eliminate the northern arc. if the plane was traveling in the northern direction (getting closer to the satellite's position) the frequency would have shifted to higher values in each successive ping (before it finally got lower after passing the satellite and heading further north). the fact that the frequency values were shifted lower and got lower still with each progressive ping indicated that the plane was in fact traveling away from the satellite, i.e. the southern direction all along. at no point was it flying closer to the satellite.

tracking the final position of the plane required further assumptions about altitude, speed of flying when on autopilot, wind speeds, and total fuel volume.

Just a question, are you saying that Doppler shift becomes higher as the plane goes closer ? As far as I know Doppler shift is a function of speed and direction alone. You can have a Plane very close to the Satellite but moving slowly towards the Satellite and another plane that is farther away from the Satellite, but moving towards the Satellite at a higher speed. The second plane which is farther will generate a higher Doppler shift than the first one.

by Propagandhi711 Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:34 pm

excellent example of muleness of a certain SS on display in past few responses

by Seva Lamberdar Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:47 am

Propagandhi711 wrote:excellent example of muleness of a certain SS on display in past few responses

now try understanding and answering Rawemotions' latest question ... that's the homework for you for the rest of weekend.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:25 am

rawemotions wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
indophile wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:

Show me where it was mentioned before on this thread that the use of doppler data for the plane from the satellite led to the discarding of the northern arc.
I remember seeing it too Sevaji. This thread is already 6 pages long. It could be in one of the previous pages.

Perhaps so, Indoji. But I would like to see the actual wording, especially if there was any explanation on why the northern arc was rejected without the plane actually generating any doppler data on that route.

this post., which i reproduce below for your benefit:

that's not exactly accurate. the pings and the time for the roundtrip of the signal combined with euclidean geometry gave the circles that they were showing earlier. they eliminated half of it based on fuel considerations. that left the northern and southern arcs. analysis of the doppler shifts helped further to eliminate the northern arc. if the plane was traveling in the northern direction (getting closer to the satellite's position) the frequency would have shifted to higher values in each successive ping (before it finally got lower after passing the satellite and heading further north). the fact that the frequency values were shifted lower and got lower still with each progressive ping indicated that the plane was in fact traveling away from the satellite, i.e. the southern direction all along. at no point was it flying closer to the satellite.

tracking the final position of the plane required further assumptions about altitude, speed of flying when on autopilot, wind speeds, and total fuel volume.
Just a question, are you saying that Doppler shift becomes higher as the plane goes closer ? As far as I know Doppler shift is a function of speed and direction alone. You can have a Plane very close to the Satellite but moving slowly towards the Satellite and another plane that is farther away from the Satellite, but moving towards the Satellite at a higher speed. The second plane which is farther will generate a higher Doppler shift than the first one.

you are correct, only velocity differences count. i stand corrected. which brings us to the question of how they were able to distinguish the northern and southern route using doppler effect. turns out the geostationary satellite is not quite stationary and with time develops a systematic and periodic wobble. thus the relative velocity between the satellite and the plane is not the same at all the instances the pings were received because the wobble gives the satellite a tiny but measurable difference in velocity at each instant. this apparently is the source of the doppler effect. thanks for the question, and making me reexamine my initial assertion.

by Seva Lamberdar Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:53 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
rawemotions wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
indophile wrote:
I remember seeing it too Sevaji. This thread is already 6 pages long. It could be in one of the previous pages.

Perhaps so, Indoji. But I would like to see the actual wording, especially if there was any explanation on why the northern arc was rejected without the plane actually generating any doppler data on that route.

this post., which i reproduce below for your benefit:

that's not exactly accurate. the pings and the time for the roundtrip of the signal combined with euclidean geometry gave the circles that they were showing earlier. they eliminated half of it based on fuel considerations. that left the northern and southern arcs. analysis of the doppler shifts helped further to eliminate the northern arc. if the plane was traveling in the northern direction (getting closer to the satellite's position) the frequency would have shifted to higher values in each successive ping (before it finally got lower after passing the satellite and heading further north). the fact that the frequency values were shifted lower and got lower still with each progressive ping indicated that the plane was in fact traveling away from the satellite, i.e. the southern direction all along. at no point was it flying closer to the satellite.

tracking the final position of the plane required further assumptions about altitude, speed of flying when on autopilot, wind speeds, and total fuel volume.
Just a question, are you saying that Doppler shift becomes higher as the plane goes closer ? As far as I know Doppler shift is a function of speed and direction alone. You can have a Plane very close to the Satellite but moving slowly towards the Satellite and another plane that is farther away from the Satellite, but moving towards the Satellite at a higher speed. The second plane which is farther will generate a higher Doppler shift than the first one.

you are correct, only velocity differences count. i stand corrected. which brings us to the question of how they were able to distinguish the northern and southern route using doppler effect. turns out the geostationary satellite is not quite stationary and with time develops a systematic and periodic wobble. thus the relative velocity between the satellite and the plane is not the same at all the instances the pings were received because the wobble gives the satellite a tiny but measurable difference in velocity at each instant. this apparently is the source of the doppler effect.

Highly questionable explanation. It has many holes in it. First of all, it is not a reliable technique, as your explanation implies. For example, if the satellite is newly placed in the orbit, there won't be any wobble (not enough time to develop it) .... therefore no Doppler shifts in similar situations for new satellites.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:20 pm

it is a very old satellite.

by rawemotions Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:54 pm

Is this post about the Doppler Effect OR method used to find southern arc. Doppler effect is present as LONG as there is a relative velocity, The relative velocity itself does not have to change.[/size]

The doppler seen is a function of relative velocity as well as direction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_effect

remember when you are near a train track, and the engine horn sounds takes a different pitch, when the train is far, when it is near and then when it moves away.
Exactly same way if the Plane moves at a constant speed, from equator in the southern hemisphere, OR when it moves to the Norther hemisphere, the angle is still the same and both would generate the same doppler.

BTW for doppler measurement to be used to identify angle, the so called Pings from plane has to carry its own speed info, otherwise we cannot make a conclusive prediction on angle. In addition the Pings should carry time of origin (of the ping) info, only then can we estimate how far the plane is.

I believe there are two kinds of GeoStationary satellites. The first type is exactly always on the equator. The second type is at a certain offset (causing a wobble, please note that this is a permanent wobble, not a wobble developed over time). Not sure what type Inmarsat is.

But if the Inmarsat satellite has a Permanent Wobble, and if the Pings indicate time of origin info along with Plane Speed, then, for some of the Pings the Satellite would not be exactly on top of the equator and we could distinguish between Norther and Southern positions, because the angle/doppler would be a little different if the pings were to come from Northern instead of southern side. So what Max says could be possible.

by rawemotions Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:10 pm

The Satellite with a permanent wobble is called GeoSynchronous Satellite, and it follows figure 8 pattern around a fixed point of earth, based on the Orbital Inclination.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geosynchronous_orbit

Its orbital period is exactly 1 day, but it is NOT always at the same point above earth.

Not sure what type Inmarsat was ?

by Seva Lamberdar Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:31 am

rawemotions wrote:But if the Inmarsat satellite has a Permanent Wobble, and if the Pings indicate time of origin info along with Plane Speed, then, for some of the Pings the Satellite would not be exactly on top of the equator and we could distinguish between Norther and Southern positions, because the angle/doppler would be a little different if the pings were to come from Northern instead of southern side. So what Max says could be possible.

Satellite wobble, from its beginning or developed later, very likely has nothing to do with the application of Dopplar effect / shift in finding out the location and direction etc. of planes.

by Seva Lamberdar Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:49 am

rawemotions wrote:The Satellite with a permanent wobble is called GeoSynchronous Satellite, and it follows figure 8 pattern around a fixed point of earth, based on the Orbital Inclination.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geosynchronous_orbit

Its orbital period is exactly 1 day, but it is NOT always at the same point above earth.

Not sure what type Inmarsat was ?

You seem to be using the word 'wobble' very loosely in this case.
Satellite is said to wobble (around its body axis) as a result of its librational motion or perturbations, whereas the figure 8 pattern appearing for the satellite in the above case is due to the orbital motion.

by rawemotions Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:28 am

Well the term might not be an exact match, but the I think having a figure-8 ( it is called an analemma, not sure why) pattern can help in detecting North Vs South trajectory if other info like time of Ping origin and actual plane speed is also available. Do you concur ?

by Seva Lamberdar Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:47 pm

rawemotions wrote:Well the term might not be an exact match, but the I think having a figure-8 ( it is called an analemma, not sure why) pattern can help in detecting North Vs South trajectory if other info like time of Ping origin and actual plane speed is also available. Do you concur ?

No, I don't think so.

by southindian Tue Apr 01, 2014 5:31 am

The last words from flight MH370 are now changed.

The new phrase is "April fool everyone."

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:09 pm

they heard a transmission which they think might be from the pingers over the weekend, but can't hear it any more. there could be a variety of reasons -- battery death, silt covering the pingers, who knows...

anyway, here is a strategy that occurs to me:

if you imagine the pinger as a point source, it's going to send out a signal which is detectable so long as the pinger locator is within a cone whose vertex is centered at the pinger. now having detected the pinger at a certain location, they could draw out an area on the floor of the ocean where the vertex of that cone could be located, in other words the probable search area. now overaly on that area, the arcs that the inmarsat folks came up with a couple of weeks ago. now you have a narrower search area. wonder whether they are using a strategy like that. they should use the pinger data in conjuction with the calculation that the inmarsat guys did. have they forgotten about that?

by Seva Lamberdar Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:02 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:they heard a transmission which they think might be from the pingers over the weekend, but can't hear it any more. there could be a variety of reasons -- battery death, silt covering the pingers, who knows...

anyway, here is a strategy that occurs to me:

if you imagine the pinger as a point source, it's going to send out a signal which is detectable so long as the pinger locator is within a cone whose vertex is centered at the pinger. now having detected the pinger at a certain location, they could draw out an area on the floor of the ocean where the vertex of that cone could be located, in other words the probable search area. now overaly on that area, the arcs that the inmarsat folks came up with a couple of weeks ago. now you have a narrower search area. wonder whether they are using a strategy like that. they should use the pinger data in conjuction with the calculation that the inmarsat guys did. have they forgotten about that?

There seems to be another question about the latest findings, which indicate the frequencies for the recorded signal / pings for MH370 at about 33 kHz.

However, according to the original information (including from the builder of the "black" box for this plane) the standard frequency of pings (signal) emitted by the black-box should be 37.5 kHz.

This discrepancy in frequency (from 37.5 kHz to 33 kHz) in the received signal is being explained as due to the enormous water pressure on the blackbox in which the pinger is located, assuming that the plane (MH370) containing the blackbox is sitting at the bottom of the ocean.

It is assumed that the pressure has changed the capacitance of the pinger and that led to a reduction in the frequency.

Considering the blackbox that houses the pinger and its capacitor etc. is designed to withstand the enormous water pressure (including deep in the ocean) and it seems to be holding its form structurally as demonstrated by the pings received currently, how is it possible for the pinger and its capacitor to feel the enormous pressure inside the undeformed (structurally sound) blackbox to undergo a change in its capacitance leading to an approximately 10% reduction (change) in frequency (from 37.5 kHz to 33 kHz)?

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:11 am

What is the pressure at the bottom of an ocean - say approx 5,000 m?

by Maria S Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:23 am

The depth of the problem..an amazing illustration:

http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/page/world/the-depth-of-the-problem/931/

Ah..the lines of romantics who talk and write about going to the depths of the oceans, for true love:) And philosophers..with nuances or simply call it as they see it..

We are tied to the ocean. And when we go back to the sea, whether it is to sail or to watch - we are going back from whence we came.

~John F. Kennedy

The sea, once it casts its spell, holds one in its net of wonder forever.

~Jacques Yves Cousteau

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/keywords/sea.html#MpAjQku4Fbps2jyC.99

by harharmahadev Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:38 am

Maria S wrote:The depth of the problem..an amazing illustration:

http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/page/world/the-depth-of-the-problem/931/

Ah..the lines of romantics who talk and write about going to the depths of the oceans, for true love:) And philosophers..with nuances or simply call it as they see it..

We are tied to the ocean. And when we go back to the sea, whether it is to sail or to watch - we are going back from whence we came.

~John F. Kennedy

The sea, once it casts its spell, holds one in its net of wonder forever.

~Jacques Yves Cousteau

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/keywords/sea.html#MpAjQku4Fbps2jyC.99

This airline story is like beating a dead horse. It's water under the bridge. It's dead in the water. Its not like new evidence has fallen off the sky.

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