Re: New Chief Justice of India is a Tamilian who wants Tamils to learn Hindi

by Guest Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:28 pm

WHAT IS KHARIBOLI ?
Khariboli is simple or spoken Hindi, as contrasted to literary Hindi which is used by many writers and public speakers***.
Khariboli is an urban language. It is the first language of the common man in the cities of what is known as the Hindi speaking belt (Uttar Pradesh, Bihar, Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh, Delhi, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, etc.) and is the second language in the cities of many parts of the non-Hindi speaking belt, not only in India but also in Pakistan.****

How did Khariboli come into existence?

Almost all cities in the world originated as market places (mandis). This was only possible when the productive forces had developed to an extent that people were producing more than they could themselves consume, and hence the surplus had to be sold or exchanged. In other words, commodities (i.e. goods for sale or exchange, and not for self consumption) began to be produced.

Since the seller and the purchaser had to have a known place where the transaction of sale and purchase could take place, market places (mandis) were created, which later became cities.
Now the seller and purchaser must have a common language, otherwise the transaction of sale would not be possible. Hence Khariboli arose as that common language of the market.

To give an illustration, in Allahabad (where I have mostly lived) Khariboli is spoken in the city, but in the rural areas around Allahabad city the dialect spoken is Avadhi (in which Tulsidas wrote his Ramcharitmanas). In Mathura city Khariboli is spoken, but in the rural areas around Mathura Brijbhasha (the language of Surdas) is spoken. In Benaras city or the other eastern cities of U.P. Khariboli is spoken, but in the rural areas around these cities Bhojpuri is spoken. In parts of northern Bihar Maithili is the rural dialect (in which the great poet Vidyapati wrote) but in the cities there also Khariboli is spoken. In Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh Khariboli is spoken in the cities, but in the rural areas local dialects (e.g. Mewari amd Marwari in Rajasthan) are spoken which an outsider cannot understand.

This shows that in vast areas of north India the rural population speaks different dialects, but the urban population had a common language, Khariboli. How did this happen?
This happened because a vast common market had been created in India (due to the development of the productive forces) even before the coming of the Mughals. A trader traveling from Bihar or Madhya Pradesh could easily sell his goods in a city in Uttar Pradesh or Rajasthan or Punjab because there was a common language, Khariboli, which both seller and purchaser knew (apart from knowing their local dialects). Thus Khariboli is the common language of the cities in large parts of India. Even in many parts of the non-Hindi speaking belt Khariboli is understood and spoken as a second language. Thus, if one goes to Kolkata or Bangalore or Gujarat or Lahore or Karachi or even in many parts of south India he can converse in Khariboli with people living in the cities (though there might be difficulty in rural areas).

***For instance, in Khariboli (or Hindustani) we say “udhar dekhiye”, while in Hindi we say “udhar avlokan keejiye”.
****I may relate a personal experience. I was traveling in a taxi from Hyderabad in Andhra Pradesh to Gulbarga in Karnataka where I had to attend a function. The taxi driver was a Telugu speaking person while the Professor of Gulbarga University who came to fetch me was a Kannada speaking gentleman, but they spoke to each other in Hindi. I was surprised, since both these persons were South Indians, and I asked them why they were speaking in Hindi. They said that that was because Hindi was the link language for them both.

http://justicekatju.blogspot.in/2012/02/what-is-urdu-speech-delivered-on-8.html

by goodcitizn Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:41 pm

Rashmun wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
seven wrote:if some of us start believing that we don't need to spend as much money for defense or protect our country from enemies. it's a waste of tax payers money, would you call them idiots or the people defending the spending?

we have to look at the bigger picture. just coz some of us are against it, we cannot compromise national unity.

our leaders believe its important for national unity that we all spoke at least one common language. not all of us have to agree with it but majority wins.
Well said. Here is an example of a separatist organization opposing Hindi (because it knows Hindi unites the people):
Only an idiot would claim that Hindi unites people. When you equate the knowledge of one language of India to patriotism you are creating division not unity among Indians.

To claim that India's defense and national security hinges on the knowledge of Hindi is asinine. And those who resist the imposition of Hindi are not separatists or anti-India.

There is a reason why Hindi is not the medium of communication between pilots and air traffic controllers throughout India. It is fundamentally because of human safety. English is the medium not just for international flights but also for domestic hops. Imposing Hindi would leave blood on the hands of Hindians.

English is the language of communication for pilots and air traffic controllers because many of the pilots flying around India are foriegners who do not know hindi. When Kumble told Ishant Sharma to bowl another over to Ponting (after Sehwag's suggestion) he was talking in hindi as was Sehwag when he spoke to Kumble. The common language of the cricketers of the Indian cricket team is evidently Hindi.

The same problem exists for Indians who don't understand Hindi and therefore get by quite nicely speaking English. If you exclude the Hindi speaking states, the odds are that people in other states either communicate in their own regional language or in English more so than Hindi. As for your cricket analogy, if Murali Vijay or Dinesh Karthik give pointers to Ashwin in Tamil would that mean that they don't toe the line with you? And if Sehwag talks to Sharma in Hindi playing against Pakistan does that make a difference? My guess is that most players speak to each other in English except in certain pathetic cases like Praveen Kumar who can't speak any other language besides Hindi because of the backward rock he crawled out of.

by Kayalvizhi Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:43 pm

Kayalvizhi wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
If i give such a reference do you promise to make a post with the following sentence: "I condemn anti-Hindi fanaticism in Tamil Nadu".

I will post that if you show evidence from within last 10 years.

rashmun,

i took your challenge. post the proof

its the 3d time you ran away from me in 3 days

by Guest Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:51 pm

When the Delhi armies penetrated into the Deccan which was annexed to the Sultanate early in the 14th century, contact was established between the speakers of the modified Khari Boli (which may for the sake of convenience be called spoken Hindustani) and the Southerners. The Sultans encouraged the settlement of people from the North in the towns of the Deccan, and even today one finds their descendants in Aurangabad and Daulatabad. With them migrated Hindustani speech too.

The earliest use of Hindustani as a literary language was made by the Sufi saints and religious teachers of the Deccan to propagate the faith and to expound its doctrines. Khwaja Gesu-daraz Banda-nawaz, who after Timur's invasion of the North migrated to Gulbarga, about 1412 A.D., appears to have been the first writer. He died in 1421 A.D. Once adopted as a medium of literary expression, the language made rapid progress. The Deccan Sultans patronized it, and in the course of two centuries it became enriched with an abundant literature.

The Hindustani employed by the Deccanese—and called by them Hindi—is redolent of the soil from which it sprang. It is dominated by tadbhava [="indigenous words"] vocabulary and has a sprinkling of words of Persian or Arabic origin. Even these are sometime spelt as they were pronounced, and not as they appeared in books. With the passage of time the borrowed element increased, but it was well-digested. From the end of the 14th to the end of the 17th century this Hindustani style flourished and bore ample fruit.

Then Aurangzeb began his campaigns, which ended in the breakup of the Deccan Kingdoms. With the disappearance of the Sultans and the dissolution of their courts, their protégés—artists and poets—were scattered. Some came to the North and stimulated the growth of the Hindustani literature in its native region. Wali was one of them. Delhi had till then been almost a stranger to the literature of Hindustani. Almost but not entirely, for a writer here and a writer there had appeared from time to time, but there was no serious, continuous literary effort.

While Hindustani was making rapid strides in the South, the North witnessed the rise of literatures, largely religious, in Avadhi and Braj Bhasha. Both Hindus and Muslims patronized these languages. Avadhi was brought into vogue by reformers and poets like Kabir and Malik Muhammad Jayasi, and on the foundation laid by them Tulasidas reared the magnificent structure of Ramcharitamanas. Braja speech became the voice of bhakti to Krishna. If Surdas poured out the yearnings of his heart in his immortal songs, Raskhan, a Muslim, vied with him in composing lyrics of moving beauty. And Rahim, the son of Bairam Khan, excelled in didactic poems. Here is a miracle of linguistic and cultural history. Sons born of fathers who were complete aliens to the thought and speech of India meet with the highest exponents of the native culture, on terms of equality!

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00urduhindilinks/tarachand/01problem.html

---
The above shows how and why Hindustani is a national language and not a regional language.

by goodcitizn Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:56 pm

More puke. tl;dr.

by Guest Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:58 pm

goodcitizn wrote:More puke. tl;dr.

you should not be participating in these discussions if you are not prepared to read a few paragraphs written by an eminent scholar on the subject under consideration.

by goodcitizn Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:02 pm

Rashmun wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:More puke. tl;dr.

you should not be participating in these discussions if you are not prepared to read a few paragraphs written by an eminent scholar on the subject under consideration.

I have told you time and again to not fill pages of copy/paste but give the gist or excerpts. You don't get extra credit for page count here nor for the number of meaningless repetitions of the same manure.

by Guest Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:32 pm

goodcitizn wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:More puke. tl;dr.

you should not be participating in these discussions if you are not prepared to read a few paragraphs written by an eminent scholar on the subject under consideration.
I have told you time and again to not fill pages of copy/paste but give the gist or excerpts. You don't get extra credit for page count here nor for the number of meaningless repetitions of the same manure.

I have been giving excerpts only from the lengthy articles whose links i have given. But it seems you are too lazy to read even the excerpts.

by Guest Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:13 pm

Hindustani or Khari Boli, which developed from one of the branches of the new Indo-Aryan dialects, has a continuous history from the time (somewhere about the 12th century) that it separated itself from the other midland dialects. As everyone knows, this basic dialect was and continues to be the spoken language of the people inhabiting the Upper Gangetic Doab and the neighboring region. This spoken language was adopted by the Muslims when they settled down in and about Delhi at the end of the 12th century. From the tongues of the new speakers a number of new sounds passed into the sound system of Khari Boli, which was a purely Indo-Aryan speech. The morphology of Khari Boli also underwent slight and rather unimportant changes, and it began to absorb loan words from the languages of the Muslim conquerors.

This modified speech became the vehicle of literary expression. Amir Khusrau is said to have employed it in the 14th century, but in the absence of any documents of his time, the matter is not free from doubt. In the Deccan, however, the speech became the medium of both prose and poetry, and here a rich literature grew up between the 14th and 18th centuries. The language used in the literature is replete with tadbhavas (indigenous words), and the literature is not encumbered with exclusively foreign elements. The authors of the Deccan very justifiably considered themselves writers of Hindi, the name which they adopted for the language which they used in their composition in prose and verse.

In Northern India the situation was very curious. Although Khari Boli or Hindustani was a northern speech, it mainly developed as a literary language in the Deccan, for there is scarcely any important independent work in the language which may be assigned to a time preceding the 17th century. The reason appears to be this. When Khari Boli emerged as a language fit for polite speech and literary expression in the 13th century, it had to face the rivalry of Rajasthani, which was the popular literary language of Northern India in that period, the language in which Jaina works were written, and Narpati Nalha and other poets wrote their heroic and other poems.

The rise of the Bhakti movement in the 15th century led to the establishment of three sects—Nirakar Bhakti, Krishna Bhakti, and Ram Bhakti. The saints of the first school, like Kabir, Nanak, Dadu, employed Khari Boli or Hindustani along with other dialects to popularize their faith; the propagators of the second sect, Surdas, Nand Das, etc., employed Braj Bhasha in their hymns and songs exclusively; the leaders of the third sect ,headed by Goswami Tulasidas, used Avadhi in their compositions.

Thus the main currents of literature in the 15th and succeeding centuries flowed in two channels, Braj Bhasha and Avadhi. Not only did Hindu writers use them; Muslim poets also made them their own. Rahim, Raskhan, Raslin are as well known in the history of Braj Bhasha poetry as any Hindu poets; and everyone recognizes that but for Malik Muhammad Jayasi's foundational work, Avadhi might never have produced the glorious structure of Ramacharitamanas.

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00urduhindilinks/tarachand/03misconceptions.html

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:46 pm

rashmun -- what really is the point of all these rambling posts? i thought this was about the chief justice's comments. and my refutation of what he said is that he can recommend anything he wants to people as long as nothing is being spent from the public coffers towards hindi education, and especially NOT at the cost of more important educational needs. what i said is really very simple. i have already noted that i have no interest in how people spend their own money. i see nothing in your subsequent posts other than the usual rambling regurgitation. so it's unclear to me whether you agree with me or not. i wish you'd be less rambling, more coherent, and more purposeful in your posts.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:48 pm

there is a saying in tamil about effective debating - "vettu oNNu, thuNdu rendu". i.e. you make one incisive cut and make two clear pieces. i prefer that style of argument instead of taking a blunt object and hitting the subject matter pointlessly until your head (or hand) hurts.

by Guest Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:57 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:rashmun -- what really is the point of all these rambling posts? i thought this was about the chief justice's comments. and my refutation of what he said is that he can recommend anything he wants to people as long as nothing is being spent from the public coffers towards hindi education, and especially NOT at the cost of more important educational needs. what i said is really very simple. i have already noted that i have no interest in how people spend their own money. i see nothing in your subsequent posts other than the usual rambling regurgitation. so it's unclear to me whether you agree with me or not. i wish you'd be less rambling, more coherent, and more purposeful in your posts.

i was trying to educate GC (and others like him) about Hindustani through my posts. I know you are familiar with the material i am posting but i believe GC is not.

by Guest Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:04 pm

my other goal is to minimize hatred for north indians by people like KV. i was delighted to read KV's appreciation of lalu yadav after i had given the link to a video where he had given an english translation of his hindi speech after some people protested at his speaking in hindi.

by Guest Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:23 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:rashmun -- what really is the point of all these rambling posts? i thought this was about the chief justice's comments. and my refutation of what he said is that he can recommend anything he wants to people as long as nothing is being spent from the public coffers towards hindi education, and especially NOT at the cost of more important educational needs. what i said is really very simple. i have already noted that i have no interest in how people spend their own money. i see nothing in your subsequent posts other than the usual rambling regurgitation. so it's unclear to me whether you agree with me or not. i wish you'd be less rambling, more coherent, and more purposeful in your posts.

coming to your point, i believe hindi should be offered as a third language in all (or as many as possible) schools in TN. Of course, it should be optional. When the people of TN have expressed a strong desire to learn hindi (as is evident from many of my posts) it would be cruel not to allow them to fulfill their aspirations. I don't think science and math education will suffer if students learn a little hindi. The goal should be to teach the students basic hindi (enough so as to allow them to communicate) and not advanced hindi.This will take very little effort. Also, young children tend to pick up new languages very quickly and relatively effortlessly. If tamils know a little hindi the problem of unemployment in TN would be for the most part solved since tamil youth would typically have little difficulty in finding employment in NI (since, in general, tamils are smarter than NIs). NI will also benefit from the 'brain drain' from TN. So it will be a win-win situation for everyone.

One of the things i have been pointing out through my posts is that it is erroneous to consider hindi as an exclusively NI language. The reason i am mentioning this again and again is that there seems to be some kind of mental block in some SIs about hindi being an NI language and hence it should be resisted. I have shown that for several centuries literary hindi was existing only in SI (in the deccani kingdoms) and not NI.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:21 pm

Rashmun wrote:
One of the things i have been pointing out through my posts is that it is erroneous to consider hindi as an exclusively NI language. The reason i am mentioning this again and again is that there seems to be some kind of mental block in some SIs about hindi being an NI language and hence it should be resisted. I have shown that for several centuries literary hindi was existing only in SI (in the deccani kingdoms) and not NI.

In the meantime, what suggestions do you have for Naarthis or Hindians or UPites ?

by Guest Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:44 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
One of the things i have been pointing out through my posts is that it is erroneous to consider hindi as an exclusively NI language. The reason i am mentioning this again and again is that there seems to be some kind of mental block in some SIs about hindi being an NI language and hence it should be resisted. I have shown that for several centuries literary hindi was existing only in SI (in the deccani kingdoms) and not NI.

In the meantime, what suggestions do you have for Naarthis or Hindians or UPites ?

make a distinction between north indians and those with hindis as first language. gujaratis, bengalis, etc. can learn their language, and also english, and also an optional language one of which should be hindi. now coming to the question of those with hindi as first language.right now these people are growing up learning english, hindi, and sanskrit. In my opinion there should be more options available for the third language besides sanskrit. and these options should include at least one SI language. (Please note that what i am saying does not apply to the poorest of the poor--for instance, people living in remote villages, etc.) With the booming economies in SI, it will be in the interest of native hindi speakers (and also other north indians) to know an SI language. Tamils and other SIs will also be happy that more people are learning their language. In other words, a win-win situation for everyone.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:15 pm

Rashmun wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
One of the things i have been pointing out through my posts is that it is erroneous to consider hindi as an exclusively NI language. The reason i am mentioning this again and again is that there seems to be some kind of mental block in some SIs about hindi being an NI language and hence it should be resisted. I have shown that for several centuries literary hindi was existing only in SI (in the deccani kingdoms) and not NI.

In the meantime, what suggestions do you have for Naarthis or Hindians or UPites ?

make a distinction between north indians and those with hindis as first language. gujaratis, bengalis, etc. can learn their language, and also english, and also an optional language one of which should be hindi. now coming to the question of those with hindi as first language.right now these people are growing up learning english, hindi, and sanskrit. In my opinion there should be more options available for the third language besides sanskrit. and these options should include at least one SI language. (Please note that what i am saying does not apply to the poorest of the poor--for instance, people living in remote villages, etc.) With the booming economies in SI, it will be in the interest of native hindi speakers (and also other north indians) to know an SI language. Tamils and other SIs will also be happy that more people are learning their language. In other words, a win-win situation for everyone.

Here is a deal:

Let all the naarthies who speaky hindi MUST learn a Southie language as 3rd language for 3 years and Southies will learn a Naarthie language - Hindi or Gujarati as their 3rd language.

Southies are crying and begging for jobs in UP and Dhili not knowing Hindi...it is the Hindians who whine that Southies are not talking hindi for their benefit.

That is the deal...take it leave it.... Razz

by goodcitizn Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:11 pm

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:rashmun -- what really is the point of all these rambling posts? i thought this was about the chief justice's comments. and my refutation of what he said is that he can recommend anything he wants to people as long as nothing is being spent from the public coffers towards hindi education, and especially NOT at the cost of more important educational needs. what i said is really very simple. i have already noted that i have no interest in how people spend their own money. i see nothing in your subsequent posts other than the usual rambling regurgitation. so it's unclear to me whether you agree with me or not. i wish you'd be less rambling, more coherent, and more purposeful in your posts.

i was trying to educate GC (and others like him) about Hindustani through my posts. I know you are familiar with the material i am posting but i believe GC is not.

I have seen these posts of yours repeatedly ad nauseum before so there is nothing new to glean from them. The last thing I need is being educated by someone like you who takes things out of context and makes mountains out of molehills.

by goodcitizn Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:35 pm

Rashmun wrote:my other goal is to minimize hatred for north indians by people like KV.

Frankly you are the instigator of hatred and division between people here using language politics. An example is your post about an incident back in 2008 involving Tamilians and Kannadigas in Bangalore due to Kavery water dispute. You were unnecessarily bringing attention to regional skirmishes as though they were a daily occurrence today. It would have taken me two seconds to post news and articles about the attacks on Uttar Pradeshi and Bihari migrants in Mumbai over language politics and regionalism also back in 2008.

The sad thing is none of this going to matter. You will continue to inundate this forum with your agenda-driven drivel.

by Guest Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:55 pm

goodcitizn wrote:
Rashmun wrote:my other goal is to minimize hatred for north indians by people like KV.

Frankly you are the instigator of hatred and division between people here using language politics. An example is your post about an incident back in 2008 involving Tamilians and Kannadigas in Bangalore due to Kavery water dispute. You were unnecessarily bringing attention to regional skirmishes as though they were a daily occurrence today. It would have taken me two seconds to post news and articles about the attacks on Uttar Pradeshi and Bihari migrants in Mumbai over language politics and regionalism also back in 2008.

The sad thing is none of this going to matter. You will continue to inundate this forum with your agenda-driven drivel.

it is a fact that anti-tamil agitations keep taking place from time to time in Karnataka and this was not a one off incident. Consider this for example (from an article published in May of this year):

All Tongues (Except Tamil) Welcome
Anil Budur Lulla
BANGALORE ~ For the just-concluded Assembly elections in Karnataka, the state saw a steady inflow of ‘outsiders’ in the form of central ministers, chief ministers, former ministers, former chief ministers, regional satraps, opposition leaders and so on. But how did these politicians campaign in a southern state without knowing the local language? They just spoke in whatever language they were comfortable in—Hindi, Telugu, Marathi and English—and curiously it made little difference.

“People in Karnataka are generally multilingual. In any case, as all they talk is politics, usually abusing other parties, their outbursts and pleas are easy to follow,’’ says Sridhar Achar, an organiser for a major party. National politicians also use a clever trick. They start off with one or two words in Kannada and then apologise for not knowing ‘Kannad’. They then switch to either English or Hindi, which “you all understand very well!”

For many elections now, large crowds have been congregating at Basavanagudi National College grounds in Bangalore to listen to the shudh Hindi of Atal Bihari Vajpayee, LK Advani, Sushma Swaraj, Murli Manohar Joshi, Rajnath Singh, Uma Bharati and others of the saffron group. Actor Chiranjeevi, currently a Union minister who has been touring districts bordering Andhra Pradesh for the Congress, likes to rouse audiences with Telugu dialogues delivered in filmy style. BJP member Venkaiah Naidu also speaks in Telugu. Narendra Modi’s not-so-shudh Hindi was also well received. The mother-son duo of Sonia and Rahul Gandhi spoke in Hindi in rural areas and English in urban.

The only language deemed unacceptable is Tamil, which is seen as a lingua non grata due to the dispute between the two states over sharing water of the Cauvery river. Marathi is the language most people living in the region bordering Maharashtra speak. It sometimes leads to a law-and-order problem as Marathi speakers often wind up suggesting the region would have seen more development had Belgaum been a part of Maharashtra.

http://www.openthemagazine.com/shorts/smallworld/2013-05-18#1

----

The problem being depicted here is that of REGIONALISM. If you gave the example of UPites and Biharis being thrashed in Maharashtra by the likes of Shiv Sena and MNS (just like they were thrashing South Indians in the 70s) then that would also be an example of REGIONALISM. This kind of behavior needs to be highlighted, exposed, condemned. It cannot be swept under the carpet just as communal incidents cannot be swept under the carpet. People who seek to sweep these kind of incidents under the carpet are the worst kind of cowards in my estimate.

by Kayalvizhi Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:56 pm

Whenever Tamils say we don't want to learn Hindi (unless someone needs it foe whatever reason) and so no reason to teach in schools, Hindians say are you not ashamed to have foreign english as official language.

Our answer, if that is the only reason for thrusting Hindi lets make Tamil India;s official languagre (after all you thibk Tamils are indians). Once you say it Hindians talk of more people speaking Hindi. What hindians want is pride in making Hindi official language and benefit from it in jobs, If they have their way they need only Hindi to work anywhere in "India", Actually it is almost true in most of India, only Hindi is needed

It is not patriotism, it is selfishness

by goodcitizn Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:10 pm

Rashmun wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:
Rashmun wrote:my other goal is to minimize hatred for north indians by people like KV.

Frankly you are the instigator of hatred and division between people here using language politics. An example is your post about an incident back in 2008 involving Tamilians and Kannadigas in Bangalore due to Kavery water dispute. You were unnecessarily bringing attention to regional skirmishes as though they were a daily occurrence today. It would have taken me two seconds to post news and articles about the attacks on Uttar Pradeshi and Bihari migrants in Mumbai over language politics and regionalism also back in 2008.

The sad thing is none of this going to matter. You will continue to inundate this forum with your agenda-driven drivel.

it is a fact that anti-tamil agitations keep taking place from time to time in Karnataka and this was not a one off incident. Consider this for example (from an article published in May of this year):

All Tongues (Except Tamil) Welcome
Anil Budur Lulla
BANGALORE ~ For the just-concluded Assembly elections in Karnataka, the state saw a steady inflow of ‘outsiders’ in the form of central ministers, chief ministers, former ministers, former chief ministers, regional satraps, opposition leaders and so on. But how did these politicians campaign in a southern state without knowing the local language? They just spoke in whatever language they were comfortable in—Hindi, Telugu, Marathi and English—and curiously it made little difference.

“People in Karnataka are generally multilingual. In any case, as all they talk is politics, usually abusing other parties, their outbursts and pleas are easy to follow,’’ says Sridhar Achar, an organiser for a major party. National politicians also use a clever trick. They start off with one or two words in Kannada and then apologise for not knowing ‘Kannad’. They then switch to either English or Hindi, which “you all understand very well!”

For many elections now, large crowds have been congregating at Basavanagudi National College grounds in Bangalore to listen to the shudh Hindi of Atal Bihari Vajpayee, LK Advani, Sushma Swaraj, Murli Manohar Joshi, Rajnath Singh, Uma Bharati and others of the saffron group. Actor Chiranjeevi, currently a Union minister who has been touring districts bordering Andhra Pradesh for the Congress, likes to rouse audiences with Telugu dialogues delivered in filmy style. BJP member Venkaiah Naidu also speaks in Telugu. Narendra Modi’s not-so-shudh Hindi was also well received. The mother-son duo of Sonia and Rahul Gandhi spoke in Hindi in rural areas and English in urban.

The only language deemed unacceptable is Tamil, which is seen as a lingua non grata due to the dispute between the two states over sharing water of the Cauvery river. Marathi is the language most people living in the region bordering Maharashtra speak. It sometimes leads to a law-and-order problem as Marathi speakers often wind up suggesting the region would have seen more development had Belgaum been a part of Maharashtra.

http://www.openthemagazine.com/shorts/smallworld/2013-05-18#1

----

The problem being depicted here is that of REGIONALISM. If you gave the example of UPites and Biharis being thrashed in Maharashtra by the likes of Shiv Sena and MNS (just like they were thrashing South Indians in the 70s) then that would also be an example of REGIONALISM. This kind of behavior needs to be highlighted, exposed, condemned. It cannot be swept under the carpet just as communal incidents cannot be swept under the carpet. People who seek to sweep these kind of incidents under the carpet are the worst kind of cowards in my estimate.

Again you are making mountains out of molehills. It is an interstate problem between Karnataka and Tamil Nadu arising from Kavery water dispute. And such skirmishes will continue as long as some politicians instigate Kannadigas saying that they got the short end of the stick. Next to Kannada, Tamil and Telugu are the two most widely spoken languages in Bangalore because of the population of Tamil-speaking and Telugu-speaking people. They get along fine overall. And your periodic posts bringing attention to such regional conflicts bringing language into the foray makes you look more like an instigator than someone who condemns such petty politics.

by Guest Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:15 pm

Hindustani, the northern dialect of western Hindi, named Khari Boli to distinguish it from Braj; called Rekhta and Hindwi by Amir Khusru; Dakhini and Urdu by its southern and northern speakers, is one of those obscure dialects which the ancient midland, the home of Sanskrit, evolved. Saurseni Prakrit, Nagar or Saurseni Apabhramsha, were its predecessors. Its phonetic and morphological systems were derived from the secondary Prakrits. But while it was still a spoken dialect, it came under the influence of people who spoke Persian and Arabic. It received new sounds from them, and evolved an ampler phonetic system. Along with new sounds, many new words of Turkish, Persian, and Arabic origin entered into its vocabulary. So far as its grammar was concerned, it underwent very little modification, though the structure of phrases and the methods of derivation of words and compounds were changed to a small extent, and minor grammatical forms and usages were adopted from Persian.

The dialect thus developed had an extraordinarily curious history. In its own homeland it remained a more or less despised mongrel patois, employed as a means of communication between the foreigner and the people, more or less as pidgin English is used in Madras and other cantonments, where there is a considerable colony of the British. But there is hardly any authentic literary work which might testify to its use in literature till later.

Against this statement, mention may be made of the use of Hindi words in the poems of Persian poets, instances of which are found in the works of Farrukhi, Manuchehri, Mukhtari, Hakim Sanai, and others of the Ghaznavide period. Even more important than this is the fact that Masud Saad Salman is reported to have composed a whole Diwan in Hindi. He was born in Mahmud Ghaznavi's reign, and acquired fame in Sultan Ibrahim's time. What form of Hindi language he used it is impossible to determine, but the lines of his Diwan give instances of the Khari Boli forms, e.g.:

Ae parastare sang-o-sukh darpan
Wai giriftare ishq-e-sbam'a-o-lagan
Dil na mi arzad ki az mastiash kas
Warihanadya ba byohare dihad

It may, therefore, be inferred that those Persian poets who resided in the Punjab were employing Khari Boli. Again Amir Khusrau, who was born in 1253 and died in 1325, is described as the author of quite a considerable number of verses in Hindi. The statement is gravely doubted, but the preface to his Diwan, Ghurratual Kamal, contains a line:—

Ari ari haman bayari aeyi
Maree maree birah ki maree aeyee

Apart from this, Hindi words are scattered through his verses. Again, Fariduddin Ganj Shakar, who died in 1265, is quoted in his biographies as having used the phrase

Poonon ka Chand bala hota hai
—a fine Khari Boli sentence. His poems are included in the Adigranth too, but their language is Punjabi. Similarly, phrases of Hamiduddin Nagori, Bu Ali Qalandar, Sharafuddin Yahya Muniri are reproduced. It has been asserted that Khwaja Muinuddin Chishti too employed Hindi in his talks. However that may be, the fact remains that these centuries up to the 15th furnish little evidence of independent Khari Boli literature in the north. Though undoubtedly it must have flourished as a spoken tongue, and might even have produced songs and poems whose record is lost.

What the north failed to achieve, strangely enough, the Deccan accomplished. Alauddin Khilji's conquests had opened the country, and numerous Sufi saints and Dervishes visited the south in order to spread their message. In the south Persian was an almost unknown tongue, and they were compelled to use the dialect of Delhi, which they knew, in order to carry on their work. Among these saints the one who created the greatest impression was Khwaja Gesu-daraz Banda-nawaz. He left the north when Timur invaded the Punjab in 1398, and settled down in the Deccan. He probably is the first writer of the Khari Boli who made it a literary language. His Risala, Mi’raj-ul Ashiquin, edited from a manuscript of 1500 AD, gives an example of his language. Here are a few sentences from the Risala: Insan ke boojoe kon panch tan. Har ek tan ko panch darwaze hain hor panch darban hain. Pahla tan wajbul wajood. Muqam iska shaitani nafs iska ammara. (The authenticity of this Risala is doubted.)

Next to him is Shams-ul-Ushshaq Shah Miranji, who died in 1496. Many of his works have been preserved, and they illustrate the language of the 15th century.

The 15th century produced quite a number of writers of this language. Bahauddin Bajan, who lived at Berhampur, was a Sufi poet. He wrote:

Yun bajan baje re asrar chhaje
Mandal man men dhamke, rabab rang men jhamke, soofi un par thumke.

Nizami was a poet at the court of Sultan Ahmad Shah III, and lived in the 15th century. He is the author of the first known allegorical poem (Masnavi) in the language, entitled Masnavi Kadorn Rao aur Padam.

From this period—that is, the end of the 14th century—this language, which may be called Hindustani, continues to progress rapidly. When Aurangzeb began the conquest of Bijapur and Golkonda in the 17th century, the poets of the Deccan began to visit the North, and the consequence was that Hindustani poetry became known to the writers of Delhi and other places. The return of the prodigal to the paternal home led to a new development. The courtiers of the Emperors of Delhi were mainly speakers and writers of Persian, but the Hindustani which came to them from the Deccan was the true representative of the mixture of Hindu-Muslim culture which prevailed among the peoples of India.

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00urduhindilinks/tarachand/02medieval.html

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:21 pm

Rashmun wrote:[/b]

CUT/VOMIT deleted.

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00urduhindilinks/tarachand/02medieval.html

Please please seek help - see a Psychiatrist.

by Guest Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:31 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:[/b]

CUT/VOMIT deleted.

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00urduhindilinks/tarachand/02medieval.html

Please please seek help - see a Psychiatrist.

bandar kya jaane adrakh ka swaad.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:18 pm

Rashmun wrote:
coming to your point, i believe hindi should be offered as a third language in all (or as many as possible) schools in TN. Of course, it should be optional. When the people of TN have expressed a strong desire to learn hindi (as is evident from many of my posts) it would be cruel not to allow them to fulfill their aspirations. I don't think science and math education will suffer if students learn a little hindi. The goal should be to teach the students basic hindi (enough so as to allow them to communicate) and not advanced hindi.This will take very little effort. Also, young children tend to pick up new languages very quickly and relatively effortlessly. If tamils know a little hindi the problem of unemployment in TN would be for the most part solved since tamil youth would typically have little difficulty in finding employment in NI (since, in general, tamils are smarter than NIs). NI will also benefit from the 'brain drain' from TN. So it will be a win-win situation for everyone.

One of the things i have been pointing out through my posts is that it is erroneous to consider hindi as an exclusively NI language. The reason i am mentioning this again and again is that there seems to be some kind of mental block in some SIs about hindi being an NI language and hence it should be resisted. I have shown that for several centuries literary hindi was existing only in SI (in the deccani kingdoms) and not NI.

TN state board has always had a two language policy beyond middle school -- english and one other language. for a majority of students that language has been tamil, but for some others it has been french, telugu, sanskrit, or hindi. this has served TN well. your prescription for a three language policy is quite unnecessary. the focus should be on learning one language, any language well, math, science and civics. everything else is optional. tamilians who have had the need to learn hindi have been doing so for four generations. i doubt they need your help.

you seem to have some very specific ideas for TN schools, but are bereft of ideas for your own state where the education situation is far more dire. perhaps you can consider teaching UPites to write and read hindi to begin with and for the more advanced learners a bit of kannada so that they can ditch their nightsoil carrier jobs and move to bangalore to get better service sector jobs. win-win for everyone. the kannadigas get their chauffers and odd-jobs men, and UPites get to move beyond nightsoil carrying.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:26 pm

btw, the three language policy that rashmun advocates is already in vogue in CBSE schools which are aplenty in TN, particularly chennai. i suspect many of the repeated cut and paste vomit posts that he does from time to time showing tamilians studying hindi are about those who attend these CBSE schools. the point that gets lost is that it's not like not studying hindi is an option for these students since hindi is compulsory in CBSE till grade ten. so there is a bit of charlatanism about these posts.

so what i wrote in my prior post is about TN state board schools, and not CBSE schools.

by Guest Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:38 pm

Rashmun wrote:
Corporation teachers offer free lunch, parents ask for Hindi
Kamini Mathai, TNN May 29, 2013, 05.58AM IST

CHENNAI: The sun beats down her back as K Padma trudges from house to house in T Nagar in a bid to boost enrolments to the Government Girls High School. But the headmistress is feeling the heat of another burning issue , the biggest hurdle in her campaign: Most parents want their children to have the option of learning Hindi, while the government schools offer only Tamil as a second language.Aided by teachers, support staff and a couple of enthusiastic members of the school's Parent Teacher Association, Padma sticks posters, hands out pamphlets, calls out members of the household, and gives them a spiel on why they ought to shift children from private schools to government ones.

She promises everything from a math and science lab to a library with 1,000 titles and lunch, all for free. But then she's often stopped short in her tracks with the question, "Hindi?"
"We have to go by the government orders when it comes to the medium of instruction as well as second language and that means no Hindi," says Padma. "I clear the misconceptions parents have about the school. The biggest one is that parents think we do not teach English . The first thing we do is tell them we have an English and a Tamil medium school," says Padma, as she defends her school, which has a 97 pass percentage in the Class 10 board exams.
Despite her best efforts, listing every schemeâ€”even citing how one of her students went on to become a collector while others got into engineering collegesâ€”most parents in the locality don't seem convinced.

Housewife Ilavarasi S and her showroom salesman husband Shankar say they want their children to learn English and Hindi. "We cannot speak either and because of that we cannot leave this city. We want our children to have that option. They speak Tamil at home," says Ilavarasi , as her neighbours nod. "So if it means we have to pay 5,000 a year as school fees, we will work that much harder," she says.
Padma refuses to back down. "I am going to keep trying because we give quality education at a nominal cost of 50 to 200 a year (based on the medium of instruction)," says Padma, who stores the pamphlets in her scooter so she can hand them out every chance she gets.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2013-05-29/chennai/39600765_1_hindi-second-language-school-fees

Call it a generational shift or the compulsion of changing times, more students whose mother tongue is Tamil are now learning Hindi as their second language in schools in Coimbatore.

School teachers too feel that learning Hindi in addition to one’s mother tongue gives students an edge when it comes to relocating outside Tamil Nadu in later years.

Some parents like Tamilselvan Nachimuthu, a bank employee, are enrolling their children in private Hindi tuition centres. “If my daughter learns to speak Hindi, she would not have to be tongue-tied when I am transferred to a north Indian State,” says Nachimuthu whose father was a staunch supporter of the anti-Hindi movement.

“In our school we provide Hindi and Tamil as additional languages for students who do not have these languages as their mother tongue. Even though this was optional, we find that most Tamil students now opt to learn Hindi,” says a principal of a leading school in R S Puram. “We start teaching them alphabets from class III and slowly move on to grammar as the language is not spoken in their homes,” he adds. Teachers also give imposition to students in Hindi so that they pick up the language fast.

“Learning Hindi or any other language is a matter of choice and no one can be forced to learn or shun a language. Today, with students reaching out and making their mark at the national and international arenas, it is an important advantage to know the language.

However, if they willingly choose to turn away from it, that choice should also be respected,” says K Sathyanarayanan, principal of Mani Higher Secondary School.

Teachers also say that some parents are forcing their children to study Hindi as they feel it would help them be at home when they go for higher education in other States.

“We do have some students who are reluctant learners of the language. But we have also seen cases where a reluctant learner grasps the language fast and begins to hum Hindi melodies,” says a Hindi teacher of a school in Vada Kovai.

Interestingly, in a reverse trend, some Hindi-speaking students have started learning Tamil in schools. Champa, a class VI student of a school in R S Puram, who hails from Delhi, says she can read Tamil name boards.

“I took up to learning Tamil as an additional language from class III. Initially it was difficult, as we do not speak Tamil at home. But our teachers are patient and I am gradually picking up Tamil. Now I actually like it, when I learn new Tamil words,” she says.

http://newindianexpress.com/states/tamil_nadu/article544856.ece

by Guest Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:46 pm

A senior official in the Kendriya Vidyalaya (KV) school system has urged students and parents in the State to understand the importance of learning Hindi language in the context of changing education and job culture.

Uma Sivaraman, Assistant Commissioner of Kendriya Vidyalaya Sangathan, Chennai Region, has said that Hindi is one of the reasons for the increasing demand for admission to schools following Central Board of Secondary Education (CBSE) pattern.

“During my interaction with parents, I found that they are choosing CBSE schools for their children as they get to learn Hindi there. Hindi as a language is essential since it is a link language for the entire country. If English is window to the world, Hindi opens doors for you in the entire country,” she said.

Talking to “The Hindu” on Saturday, Ms.Uma Sivaraman, who worked as Principal of Kendriya Vidyalaya-1 at Narimedu here till 2006, has said that inter-State communication is one of the key aspects for education and career opportunities.

“My appeal to the school students is to show interest in learning our national language also. No doubt, one’s mother tongue gets top priority, but at the same time we should make sure that we learn our ‘rashtra basha’ too,” the KV official said.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Madurai/dont-ignore-hindi-kv-official-tells-students/article4183530.ece

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:54 am

Rashmun wrote:Tamils and other SIs will also be happy that more people are learning their language.

it neither makes me happy nor unhappy when someone learns my language. you are not doing me a favor. on the few occasions i prescribed tamil lessons for you is to make you look in the mirror and see the futility of your arguments.

by Guest Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:21 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Rashmun wrote:Tamils and other SIs will also be happy that more people are learning their language.

it neither makes me happy nor unhappy when someone learns my language. you are not doing me a favor. on the few occasions i prescribed tamil lessons for you is to make you look in the mirror and see the futility of your arguments.

There will come a time when due to the widespread knowledge of english other languages will start dying out. Eventually humans will leave the earth for survival; this is inevitable and you know it. That's when the number of speakers of a particular language becomes important for that language's survival. If tamil is to survive forever (or for an indefinitely long time) tamilians should encourage others to learn their language. In this connection tamilians should view the teeming millions in NI as an asset who can help them preserve their language and culture.

by Guest Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:24 pm

Rashmun wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Corporation teachers offer free lunch, parents ask for Hindi
Kamini Mathai, TNN May 29, 2013, 05.58AM IST

CHENNAI: The sun beats down her back as K Padma trudges from house to house in T Nagar in a bid to boost enrolments to the Government Girls High School. But the headmistress is feeling the heat of another burning issue , the biggest hurdle in her campaign: Most parents want their children to have the option of learning Hindi, while the government schools offer only Tamil as a second language.Aided by teachers, support staff and a couple of enthusiastic members of the school's Parent Teacher Association, Padma sticks posters, hands out pamphlets, calls out members of the household, and gives them a spiel on why they ought to shift children from private schools to government ones.

She promises everything from a math and science lab to a library with 1,000 titles and lunch, all for free. But then she's often stopped short in her tracks with the question, "Hindi?"
"We have to go by the government orders when it comes to the medium of instruction as well as second language and that means no Hindi," says Padma. "I clear the misconceptions parents have about the school. The biggest one is that parents think we do not teach English . The first thing we do is tell them we have an English and a Tamil medium school," says Padma, as she defends her school, which has a 97 pass percentage in the Class 10 board exams.
Despite her best efforts, listing every schemeâ€”even citing how one of her students went on to become a collector while others got into engineering collegesâ€”most parents in the locality don't seem convinced.

Housewife Ilavarasi S and her showroom salesman husband Shankar say they want their children to learn English and Hindi. "We cannot speak either and because of that we cannot leave this city. We want our children to have that option. They speak Tamil at home," says Ilavarasi , as her neighbours nod. "So if it means we have to pay 5,000 a year as school fees, we will work that much harder," she says.
Padma refuses to back down. "I am going to keep trying because we give quality education at a nominal cost of 50 to 200 a year (based on the medium of instruction)," says Padma, who stores the pamphlets in her scooter so she can hand them out every chance she gets.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2013-05-29/chennai/39600765_1_hindi-second-language-school-fees

Call it a generational shift or the compulsion of changing times, more students whose mother tongue is Tamil are now learning Hindi as their second language in schools in Coimbatore.

School teachers too feel that learning Hindi in addition to one’s mother tongue gives students an edge when it comes to relocating outside Tamil Nadu in later years.

Some parents like Tamilselvan Nachimuthu, a bank employee, are enrolling their children in private Hindi tuition centres. “If my daughter learns to speak Hindi, she would not have to be tongue-tied when I am transferred to a north Indian State,” says Nachimuthu whose father was a staunch supporter of the anti-Hindi movement.

“In our school we provide Hindi and Tamil as additional languages for students who do not have these languages as their mother tongue. Even though this was optional, we find that most Tamil students now opt to learn Hindi,” says a principal of a leading school in R S Puram. “We start teaching them alphabets from class III and slowly move on to grammar as the language is not spoken in their homes,” he adds. Teachers also give imposition to students in Hindi so that they pick up the language fast.

“Learning Hindi or any other language is a matter of choice and no one can be forced to learn or shun a language. Today, with students reaching out and making their mark at the national and international arenas, it is an important advantage to know the language.

However, if they willingly choose to turn away from it, that choice should also be respected,” says K Sathyanarayanan, principal of Mani Higher Secondary School.

Teachers also say that some parents are forcing their children to study Hindi as they feel it would help them be at home when they go for higher education in other States.

“We do have some students who are reluctant learners of the language. But we have also seen cases where a reluctant learner grasps the language fast and begins to hum Hindi melodies,” says a Hindi teacher of a school in Vada Kovai.

Interestingly, in a reverse trend, some Hindi-speaking students have started learning Tamil in schools. Champa, a class VI student of a school in R S Puram, who hails from Delhi, says she can read Tamil name boards.

“I took up to learning Tamil as an additional language from class III. Initially it was difficult, as we do not speak Tamil at home. But our teachers are patient and I am gradually picking up Tamil. Now I actually like it, when I learn new Tamil words,” she says.

http://newindianexpress.com/states/tamil_nadu/article544856.ece

MADURAI: The denial of opportunity to learn Hindi in government schools and the absence of a strong three-language policy in Tamil Nadu have been cited as a major imbalance in the State's education system.

Strong views supporting introduction of Hindi and English communication came from students at a public hearing organised by the committee on equitable education here on Saturday.

The committee, headed by the former Vice-Chancellor of Bharatidasan University, S. Muthukumaran, received suggestions from teachers, parents, students.

A. Shamima Banu, a Plus-Two English medium student of an aided school here, was among those who wanted Hindi introduced in school. "We are missing many opportunities. I feel inferior when my cousin studying in ... matriculation school converses fluently in Hindi and English. If we learn only Tamil, our prospects are confined to Tamil Nadu. It was quite evident when we went on an educational tour to North India," she said and submitted a written representation.

http://www.hindu.com/2006/11/05/stories/2006110515210300.htm

by Guest Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:34 am

Stress on Hindi classes

Special Correspondent

THANJAVUR: The president of Ambedkar Makkal Iyakkam, V. Balasundaram, said that the forum had appealed to the Central Government to promote Hindi schools at panchayat union level in Tamil Nadu.

He told presspersons on Friday that Hindi should be learnt by students in Tamil Nadu.
Optional subject

Learning the language was necessary for employment, and for national integration.

Hindi could be taught as an optional subject in schools.
Social justice yatra

He said that he has taken up a ‘social justice rath yatra’ from Kanyakumari to Chennai.

The yatra received an overwhelming response at many places from Kanyakumari to Thanjavur which he visited on Thursday.
For communal harmony

It was aimed at promoting communal harmony and national integration.

The Government should form a board to find out the position of ‘panchami’ land in Tamil Nadu and distribute them to the landless poor.

Pucca houses should be built for slum dwellers in cities such as Chennai.

http://www.hindu.com/2007/08/11/stories/2007081151130200.htm

by Guest Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:38 am

My earnest appeal to all north indians is to let tamils in Tamil Nadu decide whether they wish to learn hindi or not. of course you can give them reasons for why it would be advantageous for them to know some hindi, but let them make the final decision. Do not even remotely suggest or insinuate any kind of force on this subject ('you must learn hindil') because that would have an adverse effect.

by Guest Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:42 am

Jai Hindi!

by Guest Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:42 am

Vidya Bagchi wrote:Jai Hindi!

yes. Also, Jai Tamil.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:44 am

Rashmun wrote:
Vidya Bagchi wrote:Jai Hindi!

yes. Also, Jai Tamil.

also jai piping hot coffee, jai tendulkar etc.

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