Re: Andhra Pradesh: 'Hindi played a key role in the freedom struggle'

by Guest Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:19 pm

Propagandhi711 wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

skype + malini = tamil teacher.

There are some tamils who think it is a waste of time for an NI to learn tamil.

are you saying your future bride is saying this? if so, ignore her and do what you have claimed you've always wanted to do. plunge yourself in this endeavor. that's what happened to me. i was ragged by a senior in college in a very singular manner. he said that he wanted me to spend every waking hour when i was not in class, eating or sleeping, or attending to a bodily function with him for two weeks. he said he'll only speak with me in hindi and that i could only converse with him in hindi. it actually worked. whether or not i enjoyed the experience, and his motivations notwithstanding, it taught me to speak a language i did not before. no amount of slogging at hindi prachar sabha exams can do that for you. this is a sincere piece of advice. learning a new language truly changes the way you think (in a positive way). there is quite a bit of evidence to support this claim. it makes neuronal connections that didn't exist before and it can be quite an enriching experience. forget about prescribing it for others, and launch yourself into this exercise. it doesn't have to be tamil. i only mentioned tamil because of your personal situation. just call malini or one of her relatives and announce that for a period of two weeks you'd like to talk for an hour or two and only in tamil. see what happens.

also drop this incessant clamor for a link language. bureaucratic pigheadedness can never produce any desirable outcomes in a democratic but utterly chaotic place like india. perhaps your approach is better suited to a place like china. in india the need to survive is almost always the driving force for learning new languages.

thanks for your advice. i'll see what i can do.

Also, I just upped the dosage.

*Corrected*

by Idéfix Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:29 pm

Good for you that you did. Let us hope that it works.

by Guest Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:32 pm

panini press wrote:Good for you ~~that you did~~ Propa. Let us hope that it works.

*Corrected*

by Idéfix Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:40 pm

I see that it is not helping just yet.

by Propagandhi711 Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:43 pm

Rashmun wrote:
Propagandhi711 wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Rashmun wrote:

There are some tamils who think it is a waste of time for an NI to learn tamil.

are you saying your future bride is saying this? if so, ignore her and do what you have claimed you've always wanted to do. plunge yourself in this endeavor. that's what happened to me. i was ragged by a senior in college in a very singular manner. he said that he wanted me to spend every waking hour when i was not in class, eating or sleeping, or attending to a bodily function with him for two weeks. he said he'll only speak with me in hindi and that i could only converse with him in hindi. it actually worked. whether or not i enjoyed the experience, and his motivations notwithstanding, it taught me to speak a language i did not before. no amount of slogging at hindi prachar sabha exams can do that for you. this is a sincere piece of advice. learning a new language truly changes the way you think (in a positive way). there is quite a bit of evidence to support this claim. it makes neuronal connections that didn't exist before and it can be quite an enriching experience. forget about prescribing it for others, and launch yourself into this exercise. it doesn't have to be tamil. i only mentioned tamil because of your personal situation. just call malini or one of her relatives and announce that for a period of two weeks you'd like to talk for an hour or two and only in tamil. see what happens.

also drop this incessant clamor for a link language. bureaucratic pigheadedness can never produce any desirable outcomes in a democratic but utterly chaotic place like india. perhaps your approach is better suited to a place like china. in india the need to survive is almost always the driving force for learning new languages.

thanks for your advice. i'll see what i can do.

Also, I just upped the dosage.

*Corrected*

This technique of correcting the post itself is so brilliantly cunning. It never gets old

by Guest Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:44 pm

Propagandhi711 wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Propagandhi711 wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

are you saying your future bride is saying this? if so, ignore her and do what you have claimed you've always wanted to do. plunge yourself in this endeavor. that's what happened to me. i was ragged by a senior in college in a very singular manner. he said that he wanted me to spend every waking hour when i was not in class, eating or sleeping, or attending to a bodily function with him for two weeks. he said he'll only speak with me in hindi and that i could only converse with him in hindi. it actually worked. whether or not i enjoyed the experience, and his motivations notwithstanding, it taught me to speak a language i did not before. no amount of slogging at hindi prachar sabha exams can do that for you. this is a sincere piece of advice. learning a new language truly changes the way you think (in a positive way). there is quite a bit of evidence to support this claim. it makes neuronal connections that didn't exist before and it can be quite an enriching experience. forget about prescribing it for others, and launch yourself into this exercise. it doesn't have to be tamil. i only mentioned tamil because of your personal situation. just call malini or one of her relatives and announce that for a period of two weeks you'd like to talk for an hour or two and only in tamil. see what happens.

also drop this incessant clamor for a link language. bureaucratic pigheadedness can never produce any desirable outcomes in a democratic but utterly chaotic place like india. perhaps your approach is better suited to a place like china. in india the need to survive is almost always the driving force for learning new languages.

thanks for your advice. i'll see what i can do.

Also, I just upped the dosage.

*Corrected*

This technique of correcting the post itself is so brilliantly cunning. It never gets old

https://such.forumotion.com/t9861p150-andhra-pradesh-hindi-played-a-key-role-in-the-freedom-struggle#75332

by Idéfix Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:00 am

Thread summary: Hindi's role in the freedom struggle was similar to the role of Marathi and Malayalam in the freedom struggle. Helped communicate the ideas of the struggle to native speakers, but vastly less significant than the role of English as the language that brought together the leaders of various regions under the aegis of the Indian National Congress. The rest of the thread is just the usual SuCH quibbling.

by Guest Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:05 am

panini press wrote:Thread summary: Hindi's role in the freedom struggle was similar to the role of Marathi and Malayalam in the freedom struggle. Helped communicate the ideas of the struggle to native speakers, but vastly less significant than the role of English as the language that brought together the leaders of various regions under the aegis of the Indian National Congress. The rest of the thread is just the usual SuCH quibbling. Charvaka aka TMB (The Main Bore) managed to put Propa to sleep.

by Guest Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:12 am

panini press wrote:The only person who has used Bangla on this forum is Huzefa Kapasi. You can ask him if I have shown any knowledge of the language.

(if i can be judge) yes, PP comprehends bengali very well and can hold a decent conversation in bengali. as he himself stated, he has an interest in learning other languages and, i add, he is very good/gifted at picking up languages (including english!). i know bengali not out of any interest in languages but because i was taught bengali in school!

by Kayalvizhi Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:22 am

Rashmun wrote:

The point she is making is that we need a link language in India, and Hindi functioned as that link language (enabling people in different states to communicate with each other) during the freedom struggle.

This nonsense was said by the Hindi fanatic Vagpayee also. Here is

http://www.tamiltribune.com/04/0301.html

Indian Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee's Fantasy Land (by A. P. Thangamani), TAMIL TRIBUNE, March 2004 (13 KB) (h)

Are Hindi zealots in high elected positions in the Indian Government living in a fantasyland? Or, are they lying about the role Hindi played (or did not play) during the freedom movement against British rule? Are they ignorant of history or are they re-writing Indian history? Couple of examples from Indian Prime Minister Vajpayee's speech are given.

by Guest Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:23 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
panini press wrote:The only person who has used Bangla on this forum is Huzefa Kapasi. You can ask him if I have shown any knowledge of the language.
(if i can be judge) yes, PP comprehends bengali very well and can hold a decent conversation in bengali. as he himself stated, he has an interest in learning other languages and, i add, he is very good/gifted at picking up languages (including english!). i know bengali not out of any interest in languages but because i was taught bengali in school!

Huzefa, i have two questions for you:

1. Is Hyderabadi (or Hyderabadi Dakhini) fundamentally the same as Hindi (with very minor differences) according to you ?

2. Do you agree that as of today Hindi makes for a better link language than english in India?

by Guest Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:32 am

Rashmun wrote:Huzefa, i have two questions for you:

1. Is Hyderabadi (or Hyderabadi Dakhini) fundamentally the same as Hindi (with very minor differences) according to you ?

yes, it is same with minor differences. i also agree with your view that for a hindi speaker it might be harder to understand bhojpuri or awadhi than dakhini.

2. Do you agree that as of today Hindi makes for a better link language than english in India?

i used to think hindi makes for a better link language owing to the fact that hindi is most widely spoken. but, of late, i am beginning to have doubts. minor things like increased literacy in english (as a language of choice) could tilt balances very fast. we live in an IT age and such things can happen fast i feel.

by Guest Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:43 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
Rashmun wrote:Huzefa, i have two questions for you:

1. Is Hyderabadi (or Hyderabadi Dakhini) fundamentally the same as Hindi (with very minor differences) according to you ?
yes, it is same with minor differences. i also agree with your view that for a hindi speaker it might be harder to understand bhojpuri or awadhi than dakhini.

2. Do you agree that as of today Hindi makes for a better link language than english in India?
i used to think hindi makes for a better link language owing to the fact that hindi is most widely spoken. but, of late, i am beginning to have doubts. minor things like increased literacy in english (as a language of choice) could tilt balances very fast. we live in an IT age and such things can happen fast i feel.

I would like to emphasize that i am not against english. I want english to spread as quickly as possible. But i recognize the fact that as of today around 5 percent of Indians know english well enough to communicate. I also recognize the fact that Hindi movies are shown in cities all across India. And hindi is not a foreign language in South India because its close variant Dakhini is one of the languages of South India.

by goodcitizn Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:04 am

quote]
I also recognize the fact that Hindi movies are shown in cities all across India. And hindi is not a foreign language in South India because its close variant Dakhini is one of the languages of South India. [/quote]

Neither Hindi nor any variant of it, be it Dakhini, Linguini, Martini or Bikini, is one of the languages of South India. If and when you learn Tamil, you'll clearly see it. Until then all your meaningless blabber is best ignored.

by Guest Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:06 am

goodcitizn wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
I also recognize the fact that Hindi movies are shown in cities all across India. And hindi is not a foreign language in South India because its close variant Dakhini is one of the languages of South India.

Neither Hindi nor any variant of it, be it Dakhini, Linguini, Martini or Bikini, is one of the languages of South India. If and when you learn Tamil, you'll clearly see it. Until then all your meaningless blabber is best ignored.

ignorance is bliss as far as you are concerned.

by Guest Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:07 am

I’d like to enlighten all the ill-enlightened Bangaloreans that the urdu you think is the urdu we speak is not the urdu we speak. The urdu you speak thinking it’s the urdu we speak is the urdu I like to call the “autowala urdu”. When we respond to you the same way you speak to us (like confident tannery road goondas), it’s because we are indulging you and having a laugh at your expense. Not because that’s the way we really speak.

It’s not what you say. You have got the gist of it. You just don’t know how to construct your sentences. It’s actually the accent you speak in that’s really funny. For instance you will say “hamme jakko vahn tairya Ta”.

Sorry. It should be “Mai jaako vhan thairya tha.” That is if you are speaking middle grade.
Sophisticated grade would be “Mai jaako vhan khadko tha.”
Crass grade would be “Mai jaako vhan japleko tha.”

And what we speak is not even urdu as much as it is what is loosely called “Dakhni”. Yes, it’s a dialect spoken in “Deccan” India. Snigger if you want – but it has its own grades of sophistication, variations, intonations, and accents. Like the rest of the world, we will judge you on your usages, pronunciations, and sentence constructions. And when Dakhni speakers say something – most often you can place them immediately - based on all the parameters listed above. I can tell you if you are from Bidar, Cuttack, Chennai, Virajpet, Bangalore, Bangalore – Shivajinagar, Bangalore – Jaynagar, Bangalore – Kalasipalya, Bangalore – Cantonment, or Bangalore – confused identity. The way you can place a North Kannadiga by their Kannada? That way only.

If you are a hindi speaker – a good thumb rule to speaking dakhni is merging two words to make one. We are kinda lazy that way. So “Aa kar” becomes “Aako” “Aati hoon” becomes “Aatiyun” and “Ja raha hoon” becomes “Jaroon”

So now that you are sufficiently educated. Let’s get to the fun part! Don’t get so stuck with the so so and ba ba. I’ll teach you some really fun words. At the end of this, you will be able to learn a really fun sentence you can use on your dakhni-speaking friends.

PISSED WITH SOMEONE?

Masti – Masti for the dakhnis does not mean fun as it does in Hindi. It’s actually used to refer to someone with too much attitude. Equal to the Kannada “kobbu”. Use it like “unku khoob masti” for your seniors or “usey khoob masti” for your peers.
Maatimilla (male) Maatimilli (female) – Literally translated means the one who has merged with the mud/one who is worth rubbing his face in the mud.
Diwani Bala (female) – What your amma will call you when you piss her off. It translates to the mad woman who embodies an evil spirit.
Diwani Rand (female) – What your amma will call you when you piss her off beyond redemption. It translates to mad erm. Let’s keep it clean. You know what it means.
Khadmoot(male) – Literally translated it means 'the man who pees standing'. But it's an insulting word because in our community standing and peeing is considered uncultured and disgusting. So, a 'khadmoot' is an uncouth who indulges in his own pleasures.

WANT TO GET DESCRIPTIVE?

Kangi-choti-haa-hoo – Literally translates to “Comb-plait-ooh-aah”. But what it really means is that you got all dressed up for nothing.
Martingdi (female) Martingda (male) – Describes a very emaciated person
Potta (male) Potti (female) – A manner in which to refer to young people. It implies that they are prone to the unruly ways and attitudes and temptations of youth. It can be used both scornfully and playfully. And often used collectively as potta-pottiyan.
Diwane shah - Literally translated means 'The Mad Duke'. Often also used as "crack shah". So you might just want to call out to someone "Aji, O diwane shah, idhar aao".
Khadi – Means upright. Typically used to prefix laat which means kick.
Dum latka le ko – Doing something with your tail dangling. Often shortened to “Latka le ko”

WANT TO GET EMOTIVE?

Kheench ko – Describes the way you would cause harm to someone – slap, kick, etc. Alternatively you can use “Thaid kar ko”. But you have to say it with a lot of stress on the vowels. So phonetically it will sound “KHEEEEENCH ko” or “ThAAAIIIDDD karko”. Kheench ko actually translates to pull hard. So your sentence would go something like this “Kheench ko ek laat martiyun”. Which means that I am going to pull hard and give you one kick.
Chittad – Means Ass. Of the hindquarters kind. So ‘I am going to pull hard and kick his ass’ translates to “Mai use kheench ko chittad po ek laat martiyun”
Speaking of chittad. There is a fun something we say to ask someone to get lost in a very colourful way. “Bhains ki chittad, kheench ko kattar”. Translates to “Pull the buffalo’s ass hard and bite it”. There is a way of saying it. Imagine you are saying this to a jungle drumbeat. In the ta-ka-takara-takarataka hoo haa hoo haa rhythm.Bhains-ki-chittadkheench-ko-kattar. Bhains-ki-chittadkheench-ko-kattar.

SO THIS IS HOW YOU PUT IT IN A SENTENCE

If you are going to speak to a guy say:

“Kya re martingde maatimille. Khoob masti ki tujhe. Ab aako tere chittad po kheeeench ko ek khadi laat detun dekh. Phir pottiyan ke saka ‘kangi-choti-haa-hoo’ karko roleko baithinga”

Translates – What you emaciated mud mixer. You got too much attitude is it? Just wait and watch, I am going to come and pull hard, and give you one upright kick on your arse. Then you will sit like a young errant girl crying comb-plait-ha-hoo.

If you are targetting a girl say:

“Kya ge maatimilli. Woh khadmoot potte se baatan karleko ko thi so? Kheench ko ek khadi laat chittad pe maroongi. Ja ab bhains ki chittad, kheench ko kattar. Aur hamna bhi zari lako de.”

Translates – What you mud mixer, were you talking to that errant boy who pees standing? I am going to pull hard and give you one standing kick on your arse. Go, go pull the buffalo’s arse and chomp on it. And give us some too!”

If you are truly interested in Dakhni as a language check this out. And if you want to formulate more colourful sentences, you may contact me directly .

THE END.

http://www.zanyoutbursts.com/2011/04/kya-ba-so-ba-ji-ji-learning-to-speak.html

by Kayalvizhi Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:10 am

It is fortunate that British introduced English to South asia. It is in a way unfortunate that they did. Without English as link language, there would not be an indian freeedom movement but TN fredom, Telugu freedom, Bengal freedom etc.

I blame EVR for not fighting for TN fredom instead of talking some nonsense about Dravida Nadu and even for that not doing a damn thing during 1942 to 1947

by Guest Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:11 am

I should have been writing this essay in Hindi. Not just this essay, but several others—and perhaps, poems, stories, book reviews, too. Many years ago, in a fit of joyous exuberance, I actually wrote several pages of my daily journal in Hindi. It happened after the language suddenly sprung to life in my inner being.

I was doing a Pre-University Course at the Madras Christian College. My second language option was Hindi. We had two teachers, whose names, unfortunately elude me just now. But I remember them very well. The older of the two was a white-haired man, with two protruding teeth. He was a Tamil brahmin, probably an Aiyar, who had been closely associated with the Dakshin Bharat Hindi Prachar Sabha. He spoke Hindi with a South Indian accent. He wore only Khadi clothes. One’s teachers make often make unwitting prophecies in the passing which, in an uncanny manner, actually come true in most unexpected ways years later. It was this Hindi professor who said that I too would start wearing Khadi one day.

Fond of literature as I was, I began to warm up to the Hindi course that we were taught. Because the board was Madras Pre-University, I thought the Hindi syllabus was rather easy. It consisted of an anthology of poetry, some short stories, and an abridged version of Premchand’s Godan. Once I got interested in a subject, I was usually considered a conscientious and lively student. Several teachers, therefore, took a liking to me or, at any rate, gave me some extra attention. Our senior Hindi teacher was no exception. Once while walking with him after class, I made so bold as to ask him, “Sir, kya mein aap ko ek sawaal pooch sakta hoon?” He said, “Haan, avashya!” I asked him about his sartorial preference for Khadi. “Kya tum bhi ise apnana chahte hon?” I was not sure what to say. “Jee nahin, Sir, dar asal mujhe yeh kya hain pata nahin hain, magar dikhene me zaroor alagh lag ta hain.” “Han, ise Khadi ya khaddar kehten hain. Yeh hum sab ke liye Gandhiji ki bhent hain. Ek din tum bhi yehi pehan ne lago ge.” I must have been sixteen years of age then. I certainly knew very little about Khadi or the philosophy behind it. It was our senior Hindi teacher who introduced me to it. And he was right in predicting that I would start wearing it one day. That’s a different story, but the fact that Khadi came to me with Hindi is important in this narrative of how a non-Hindi speaking person came to love our national language.

Let me come back to my Pre-University Hindi course. It was during this course that Hindi began actually to resonate in my consciousness like never before. I had of course done ten years of Hindi as a second language through my junior and senior school years. But Hindi as a second language in an ICSE curriculum of an Anglo-Indian school was neither very exciting nor particularly demanding. The Hindi teachers in my school were often objects of curiosity or humour, seldom of awe or reverence.

We loved our Hindi classes for entirely different reasons. For instance, one of our teachers, Mr. Aziz, had the most beautiful handwriting. He hardly taught us any Hindi or for that matter anything else, but students often went to him to get their names inscribed in his elegant, flowery calligraphy in their notebooks or textbooks. That was one reason he was so popular among the students. I learned later that Mr. Aziz had never been trained to be a Hindi teacher. Hindi had perhaps fallen to his lot after he had failed at everything else. Easy going, even lazy by temperament, this soft option came as a saving grace for his career as a school teacher.

Another teacher that we had, Mrs. R, also interested us for other reasons. In a boys’ school such as ours, any reasonably good looking lady teacher not only became an instant favourite, but also the focus of gossip. Mrs. R was rumoured to be close to our sports teacher, Mr. S. Not knowing much about adult relationships, we nevertheless took special interest in the private life of Mrs. R. and paid less attention to what she taught us.

The only Hindi teacher who made definite impact on me in school was Mr. Seshadri. He was a balding, silver-haired, Kannada Brahmin, who also spoke very good English. He spent several months in our 9th standard teaching us declension. When I told him, “But, Sir, we know all this intuitively,” he replied, “You don’t understand; this will help you later when you study Sanskrit.” Another prophecy, I must confess, that has been fulfilled at least partially. Though I remember the different cases—nominative, accusative, instrumental, dative, ablative, genative, locative, vocative—I must admit that I haven’t made much progress with Sanskrit despite repeated attempts over several years. At any rate, Mr. Seshadri’s insistence on grammar and declension made him unpopular among most of my classmates. Only I, somehow, enjoyed even the lessons in grammar.

Mr. Seshadri was a bachelor. None of us knew much about the circumstances of his life. He had two good suits which he wore alternately. His English, too, was pretty good. I never understood what made him take to teaching Hindi. Perhaps, he had an M.A. in Hindi. He didn’t teach us much literature, but I do remember some conversations that I had with him. Once, when he wore a new suit, I told him, “Sir, you are looking regal.” I thought he would take it as a compliment, but instead he said with unexpected sharpness, drawing himself back, lifting his head and shoulders high, “I’ll look regal even in rags.” Later, I learned that the lack of adequate financial support during the crucial years of his education had probably denied him his rightful place in the world, forcing him to earn a living teaching Hindi to anglicized school brats instead.

One thing that Mr. Seshadri did teach us, however, was that Hindi was not one language, but the name for a number of related tongues spoken all over India. There was the standard Hindi, of course, that we were expected to learn, but even this language wasn’t very old nor without its internal variances and tensions. This realization came after I took a bet with my only competitor in the Hindi class about a word that I’d heard Dharmendra use in a Hindi movie. The word, I think was, khali-pili. When I had used it, my friend said, “That’s not Hindi.” “Bet?” I challenged him. We went to Mr. Seshadri to decide who won. Our teacher said, “Both of you are right. That word is a part of bumbaiya Hindi…” “Bubaiya? What’s that, Sir?” I interrupted. “Well, there are all these dialects of Hindi. Each region speaks it it’s own way. So, I suppose, khali-pili is acceptable in bumbaiya but not in shudh Hindi.”

Once in a while, I still dream of Mr. Seshadri. One dream that I have goes as follows. I have been absent from class for several months. Mr. Seshadri expects me to do well in some exam. The prescribed book is a long novel, perhaps by Premchand. I come to class with a great sense of anxiety and apprehension. I don’t know how to explain to him that I haven’t read the book yet. I feel grossly ashamed and inadequate to have let Mr. Seshadri down after he’s reposed his faith in me. I usually wake up that that point. Perhaps, it’s my inner sense of guilt at not having done more with/in Hindi that chastises me in this manner from time to time.

One more anecdote about Mr. Seshadri. When all of us were leaving school, we got our teachers to sign our diaries and also give us little messages to carry with us into the great, wide world. I was particularly keen to get the autographs of all my teachers. Mr. Aziz, Mr. Shankar, Mr. Jaipaul, Mr. Paulraj, Mrs. Robinson, Mr. Lobo, Mr. Athiyal, Mr. Ninan, our Principal, Mr. A. T. Balraj, and of many other teachers—the faces of all these flash in my mind as I recall that fateful day of leave-taking. I still remember what Mr. Seshadri wrote in my diary: Zindagi zinda dili ka naam hai; murda dil khaakh reh jate hain. The fire in his eyes when he looked at me after writing that message is unforgettable.
Mr. Seshadri’s extracurricular lesson in the dialects of Hindi is very important for my own narrative. For the first time, it explained to me why the Hindi that I had learned was so different from what was taught in school. Nowhere was this more evident than in the clandestine conversations that I had with my Muslim friends in school during the recess. We thought we were speaking Hindi, but it was certainly not the Hindi that we were learning in class. No wonder Hasan Moosa, Suhail Yousuf, Saud Ahmed and my other Muslim friends all did very poorly in Hindi. Of course, they weren’t very studious either, but the language, its grammar, syntax, even vocabulary were not really alien to them. Only the language they spoke had a totally different feel and flavour to it.

It was this language that I learned by the name of Hindi. Interestingly, Hindi was not something that I grew up knowing. I was born in Gujarat in a Maharashtrian family. The two languages I imbibed almost with my mother’s milk were Marathi, my mother-tongue, and Gujarati. The latter I learned outside my house. The neighbours and everyone else in the street spoke it. Learning it was no effort, but I still remember my Chitra and Meena, the daughters of our upstairs neighbours, teaching me the numbers, from one to 100 very painstakingly. My Gujarati, at all events, was so authentic that no one could tell I was a Maharashtrian. The surprise, even alarm, expressed by some of the natives when they heard that I was not a Gujarati was always both amusing and annoying. Later, when we moved out of Gujarat, I lost that native-like fluency and local accent. My Gujarati is still pretty good, but it’s bookish and artificial, not the living language in which I frolicked as a child.

The point is that I never learned for the first five and a half years of my life, which were spent in Baroda. Ironically, I learned a language akin to Hindi when we moved to Bangalore, in the heart of South India. I learned the language, moreover, from drivers and watchmen. They all thought of us as North Indians and assumed that we knew Hindi. The language they taught me was intimate, sociable, warm, vital, quick, and expressive. “Tum ko Hindi nai aata, saam?” I remember being asked. I said, “Na. Sirf thoda thoda aata.” I told them I knew only Marathi and Gujarati. My first Hindi teachers said, “Koi baat nahin, hum sikhata.” And so my lessons started.
“Kab aye tum?”
“Phajar ko.”
“Kay hona tumna?”
“Kuch bhi nahin. Jao ji, humna chhod dalo.”
“Tum kidhar rehte?
“Idhar-ich. Isi colony mein. Tumna malum nahin?”

This is the sort of Hindi we spoke. You may call it Dakhni or Dakhni Urdu, but it’s spoken in large parts of Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka, and even in Tamil Nadu. Again, there a local variations. Hyderabadi is a distinct and much more powerful form than Karnataki. The large Muslim, Rajput, and other North Indian populations in Bangalore and Mysore, especially those settled there for over 200 years, speak this language.

When we grew up, we were rather ashamed of it. We thought that only the “real” North Indians, those who lived in U.P or Delhi knew proper Hindi. Our language was something we rarely used in public. It was the patios spoken with subordinates who worked in the company. For several years, while I was growing up in Bangalore, I spoke this kind of Hindi. It was a language in which “mein” and “aap” were rarely used; its was only “hum” and “tum.” Many years later, a friend from Hyderabad told me that others, especially elders and betters, needed to be addressed as “aap.”

The verbs in this language were very graphic and vivid: dhakal dalo—push it away; bhirka do—fling it; chhod dalo—leave it; ghatt pakdo—hold it tightly; daud lo—run; and so on. “Ch” as an intensifier was added to everything we said: “Uttach—that’s all; wo ayach nahin—he didn’t come at all; bolech nahin—didn’t say at all; and so on. It was also a language full of swear words, besides the usual ma-bahen ki gaaliyan, which I won’t translate: chinnal ke; laude ke baal; gaandu; chutiya; etc.
“Unhe kidhar gaya so?”
“Kya ki, maloom nahin. Bole ke gaya nahin unhe. Sala, chinnal ka.”
“Wo sab humna sunna nahin. Tumech karna padenga.”
“Kaya saab, aisa bolte tum. Usiko aata na, humna kyon tum bejaar karte?”
“Aisa kya, ulte zaban ladate kya tume. Bahut kirkire tumhari sun liya. Ab bus ho gaya. Chup chaap aate ki nahin, bolo.”
“Achha saab, aate hum. Tum kya yaad karenge.”
I typical conversation would go like this. “So” would be liberally sprinkled all over. Aate so, jaate so, ky so, bolo so, and so on.

Later, when I lived in Hyderabad, the language came back to me, but it was not what I had learned as a child in the suburbs of Bangalore, from native speakers and users of Karnataki or Bangalori. Though the latter was the mother tongue of none of us, we all spoke it, whether we were Gujaratis, Maharashtrians, Telugus, Tamils, Kannadigas, Muslim, Hindu, Christian, North Indians, South Indians, officers or watchmen.

Mr. Seshadri gave this beautiful language some semblance of legitimacy in my eyes. Later, I realized that Hindi or Hindavi or Urdu or Dakhini had a great flowering in the South much before it reached it high level of sophistication in Delhi, Agra, and Lucknow. In was in the Deccan that this language found state patronage in the 14th, 15th, and 16th centuries. Golconda, Bijapur, Bidar, Gulbarga, the breakaway Sultanates of the Deccan and, later, Mysore under Hyder Ali and Tipu, patronized this language. The first ruler and founder of Hyderabad, Quli Qutub Shah, composed love lyrics in it. The language that I had learned from drivers, watchmen, and malis was, after all, a noble tongue.

Later, when I came to St. Stephen’s College to do my B.A. (Hons.) in English, I thought I would at last get a native speaker of Hindi as a teacher. That is indeed what I thought was the case when I took classes with Dr. Vedagnya Arya. I enjoyed those classes, though not as much as I had the Pre-University course at Madras. The only Hindi poetry that I had read till then was at Madras. Who can forget the rousing resonance of the lines of Subhadra Kumari Chauhan’s poem on Rani Laxmibai: “Khub ladi mardani thi woh jhansi wali rani.” I also read Suryakant Tripathi “Nirala,” Jaishankar Prasad, Maithilisharan Gupt, and Mahadevi Verma for the first time. In Delhi, however, the emphasis seemed to be on prose. There was an awful essay, a sort of travel piece, by Jawaharlal Nehru which was prescribed. It was probably the only thing he ever wrote in English. I remember a word from it , khushk—dry—Nehru was saying that mausam khushk tha—or something to that effect. Another essay that I remember was called “Mere Napitacharya.” It was a humorous piece on the author’s barber. In today’s more politically correct times, the undertone of class superiority would be sure to attract criticism. I also read famous and not so famous short stories by Premchand, Upendranath Ashk, Mohan Rakesh, and so on. “Punch Parmeshwar,” “Budhi Kaki,” “Dawat ki Adawat,” are some of the titles that stick in my mind.
Dr. Arya was an eloquent and inspired teacher. He also brought in a researcher’s dimension to the classroom, which had been missing in my earlier Hindi classes. I got to know his son, Aditya, rather well. Aditya and I used to stay up nights, with flaskfuls of coffee, studying before the exam. Of course, we chatted more and studied less. It was only then, in my third year, after I had cleared the Hindi subsidiaries that I found out the Dr. Arya was actually a Telugu. He had left home at an early age, joined the Arya Samaj, studied to become a PhD and a lecturer in Hindi. So, even in Delhi, I was taught Hindi by a vibhashi like myself.

In this longish, autobiographical narrative what I’ve tried to establish is the simple fact that I am a non-native speaker of Hindi who was taught the language and its literature by other non-native speakers. I learned Hindi in the South, in Bangalore; all my teachers in school and college were non-native speakers of Hindi; that is, throughout my education, I was taught Hindi by Kannada, Tamil, Malayali, and Telugu speakers. It is they who taught me not only how to speak, read, and write in Hindi, but awakened in me a love for the language.

The language, as I have hinted earlier, came to symbolize in my mind, not just the unity and integrity of India, as the cliché goes, but something beyond that—a certain mystique, a spirit of belonging and oneness with the inner springs of the language. That was how, one day, the door of Hindi opened in my consciousness and out poured from it cascades of beautiful words, like a long unbroken poem, internally consistent and organized according to the logic of the imagination. Hindi became my own and I could say with quiet pride, Hindi hain hum.

I wrote only one poem in Hindi. It went somewhat like this:
Mujhe pata hain us manzil ka thikana
jahan hum sub ko milega woh jis ki hai hamen talash.
Raste mein a nadi hogi, jis ko par karna aasan nahin.
Baadh me hame mahinon kinare par intezaar karna hoga.
Aage, a jangal bhi milega, jis me unmat janwaron ke karkash garjana
sun kar dil kaamp uthega. Magar hausla mut haarna, mitron,
mujeh pata hain us manzil ka thikana.

I have recapitulated just one of the paragraphs of the poem. I am sure it has lost some of its initial charge in this rewriting; I don’t have access to the original at this moment. Yet, the idea should be clear—there will obviously be other symbolic and real obstacles on the way. Perhaps, the poem will end on a note of uncertainty, even futility. In a poem, language is everything; I’m not sure I had managed to pull off the verbal coup that every half-way decent poem must.
Having settled down in Delhi, my contact with Hindi has grown. I speak in Hindi not just to most people I encounter on a day to day basis, but also to several friends and colleagues. I miss the sound of Hindi when I go South or abroad. I find that I tend quite naturally to switch to Hindi in everyday conversations, without which a sense of distance and formality remains in any social intercourse. Having English as a common language is not longer sufficient; without Hindi, the motor of conversation doesn’t hum. My intellectual contact with Hindi has also increased, though not as much as I have wanted it to. Yet, I can easily understand and even participate in current debates in the world of Hindi letters and ideas. In brief, I am no stranger to the continent of Hindi.

That is why it saddens me sometimes that Hindi speakers themselves have not done enough to raise the status and reach of the language. The pundits in charge of the propagation of Hindi have sought to impose an alienating, Brahmannical language on a recalcitrant populace. Hindi cinema, as we all know, has done more for Hindi than all the official language planners. And yet a high level of intellectualization is inevitable for any language if it is to resist being boxed into a subaltern position such as all our Indian languages do vis a vis English.

I think the future of Hindi, in spite of what the Government is doing or not doing, is bright. In my travels across India, I find that it is Hindi which is used as a link language, whether it is in Shillong or Port Blair. Even in Tamil Nadu, strangers have come up to me to speak in Hindi even though I normally would avoid using the language on my own. This has happened to me so often that I am convinced that the image of the Hindi-hating Tamilian is grossly untrue. Yes, there is a politicization of the language issue, but the common people of Tamil Nadu, I feel reasonably sure, love Hindi. Not just that, whether in Chennai or Madurai, in Trichy or Coimbatore, Hindi is spoken by surprisingly large numbers of people. Hindi is also heard in Colombo, Singapore, Kuala Lumpur and Jakarta, not to speak of London, Paris, Moscow, Tokyo, New York, and Toronto. In Pakistan and in Bangladesh large sections of the population understand Hindi. After all, Hindi and Urdu are sister languages. In Nepal, Hindi is widely understood because it is so similar to Nepali. Calcutta has a huge Hindi speaking population. Hindi is also the lingua franca of Mumbai and Hyderabad. So, Hindi is widely spoken and used in all our metros, from Amritsar to Thiruvananthapuram.

Though this essay has been mainly a narrative, it does have an implicit argument. The argument is that Hindi belongs to the vibhashis as mucha as it does to the Hindi-wallah. In the last hundred years, it has been promoted by a whole host of protagonists, from Dayanand Saraswati, Mahatama Gandhi, and Vinoba to Pandurang Shastri Athavale, Satya Sai Baba, and Asaram Bapu. Hindi is not just the language of film songs, but also of bhajans all over India. Non-native speakers have written nearly half of the best literature of Hindi. Not just Ajneya, Ashak, Muktibodh, Sahani,Vaid, Sobti, and so on, but a whole nation of Punjabis, Gujaratis, Maharashtrians, Bengalis, Oriyas, and, indeed people from every corner of the land, have enriched and contributed to the language.

My romance with Hindi has not yet reached either its climax or its culmination. Hindi has become a part of the collective psyche of millions of people like me. What makes us proud is the we may be vibhashis, but we are still desi, as desi in fact as the cycle-rickshaw puller of Kanpur, the sugar farmer of Meerut, the brass worker of Moradabad, or the pan-walla of Benaras. All of us togther make both Hindi and India what they are.

http://www.makarand.com/acad/HindiHainHum.htm

by Kayalvizhi Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:17 am

Rashmun wrote:
i think the easiest way to learn tamil would be to live for an extended time in TN. And that is not possible right now.

But all Tamils should learn Hindi living in TN so Hindians can come to TN to make a living and speak to Tamils in Hindi in TN!

by Guest Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:21 am

Kayalvizhi wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
i think the easiest way to learn tamil would be to live for an extended time in TN. And that is not possible right now.

But all Tamils should learn Hindi living in TN so Hindians can come to TN to make a living and speak to Tamils in Hindi in TN!

For historical reasons it is easier for a Tamilian to learn tamil while being in TN. Consider for example:

1. Existence of the the southern Indian language Dakhini, which is a variant of Hindi, in some parts of TN
2. Popularity of Hindi movies in cites in TN.
3. Existence of Dakshin Hindi Prachar Sabha

by Guest Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:39 am

Rashmun wrote:For historical reasons it is easier for a Tamilian to learn tamil while being in TN.

by Guest Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:48 am

Rashmun wrote:
Kayalvizhi wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
i think the easiest way to learn tamil would be to live for an extended time in TN. And that is not possible right now.

But all Tamils should learn Hindi living in TN so Hindians can come to TN to make a living and speak to Tamils in Hindi in TN!

For historical reasons it is easier for a Tamilian to learn ~~tamil~~ hindi while being in TN. Consider for example:

1. Existence of the the southern Indian language Dakhini, which is a variant of Hindi, in some parts of TN
2. Popularity of Hindi movies in cites in TN.
3. Existence of Dakshin Hindi Prachar Sabha

by Guest Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:49 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
Rashmun wrote:For historical reasons it is easier for a Tamilian to learn tamil while being in TN.

should have been hindi instead of tamil.

by goodcitizn Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:47 am

Rashmun: If the Dhakini you refer to is a form of Urdu spoken in Tamil Nadu, I have heard this tongue spoken by muslims to each other, not by any others. The same goes for the dialect Sowrashtrians speak to each other in Tamil Nadu. But none of these have any bearing on Tamil or any other south indian language. If at all you want to be credible, consider saying that Sanskrit words are prevalent in most south indian languages, not Urdu or Dachini.

If any non-Hindi language, even Swahili for that matter, was forced upon a whole generation of people for 46+ years by hook or crook, like the north indians did in south india, even a rickshaw guy will be somewhat conversant in that tongue. That's what imposition means.

by Idéfix Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:54 am

The Urdu speakers of Tamil Nadu probably do not call the language Duckini or cluckini either.

by Guest Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:30 am

Rashmun wrote:
I’d like to enlighten all the ill-enlightened Bangaloreans that the urdu you think is the urdu we speak is not the urdu we speak. The urdu you speak thinking it’s the urdu we speak is the urdu I like to call the “autowala urdu”. When we respond to you the same way you speak to us (like confident tannery road goondas), it’s because we are indulging you and having a laugh at your expense. Not because that’s the way we really speak.

It’s not what you say. You have got the gist of it. You just don’t know how to construct your sentences. It’s actually the accent you speak in that’s really funny. For instance you will say “hamme jakko vahn tairya Ta”.

Sorry. It should be “Mai jaako vhan thairya tha.” That is if you are speaking middle grade.
Sophisticated grade would be “Mai jaako vhan khadko tha.”
Crass grade would be “Mai jaako vhan japleko tha.”

And what we speak is not even urdu as much as it is what is loosely called “Dakhni”. Yes, it’s a dialect spoken in “Deccan” India. Snigger if you want – but it has its own grades of sophistication, variations, intonations, and accents. Like the rest of the world, we will judge you on your usages, pronunciations, and sentence constructions. And when Dakhni speakers say something – most often you can place them immediately - based on all the parameters listed above. I can tell you if you are from Bidar, Cuttack, Chennai, Virajpet, Bangalore, Bangalore – Shivajinagar, Bangalore – Jaynagar, Bangalore – Kalasipalya, Bangalore – Cantonment, or Bangalore – confused identity. The way you can place a North Kannadiga by their Kannada? That way only.

If you are a hindi speaker – a good thumb rule to speaking dakhni is merging two words to make one. We are kinda lazy that way. So “Aa kar” becomes “Aako” “Aati hoon” becomes “Aatiyun” and “Ja raha hoon” becomes “Jaroon”

So now that you are sufficiently educated. Let’s get to the fun part! Don’t get so stuck with the so so and ba ba. I’ll teach you some really fun words. At the end of this, you will be able to learn a really fun sentence you can use on your dakhni-speaking friends.

PISSED WITH SOMEONE?

Masti – Masti for the dakhnis does not mean fun as it does in Hindi. It’s actually used to refer to someone with too much attitude. Equal to the Kannada “kobbu”. Use it like “unku khoob masti” for your seniors or “usey khoob masti” for your peers.
Maatimilla (male) Maatimilli (female) – Literally translated means the one who has merged with the mud/one who is worth rubbing his face in the mud.
Diwani Bala (female) – What your amma will call you when you piss her off. It translates to the mad woman who embodies an evil spirit.
Diwani Rand (female) – What your amma will call you when you piss her off beyond redemption. It translates to mad erm. Let’s keep it clean. You know what it means.
Khadmoot(male) – Literally translated it means 'the man who pees standing'. But it's an insulting word because in our community standing and peeing is considered uncultured and disgusting. So, a 'khadmoot' is an uncouth who indulges in his own pleasures.

WANT TO GET DESCRIPTIVE?

Kangi-choti-haa-hoo – Literally translates to “Comb-plait-ooh-aah”. But what it really means is that you got all dressed up for nothing.
Martingdi (female) Martingda (male) – Describes a very emaciated person
Potta (male) Potti (female) – A manner in which to refer to young people. It implies that they are prone to the unruly ways and attitudes and temptations of youth. It can be used both scornfully and playfully. And often used collectively as potta-pottiyan.
Diwane shah - Literally translated means 'The Mad Duke'. Often also used as "crack shah". So you might just want to call out to someone "Aji, O diwane shah, idhar aao".
Khadi – Means upright. Typically used to prefix laat which means kick.
Dum latka le ko – Doing something with your tail dangling. Often shortened to “Latka le ko”

WANT TO GET EMOTIVE?

Kheench ko – Describes the way you would cause harm to someone – slap, kick, etc. Alternatively you can use “Thaid kar ko”. But you have to say it with a lot of stress on the vowels. So phonetically it will sound “KHEEEEENCH ko” or “ThAAAIIIDDD karko”. Kheench ko actually translates to pull hard. So your sentence would go something like this “Kheench ko ek laat martiyun”. Which means that I am going to pull hard and give you one kick.
Chittad – Means Ass. Of the hindquarters kind. So ‘I am going to pull hard and kick his ass’ translates to “Mai use kheench ko chittad po ek laat martiyun”
Speaking of chittad. There is a fun something we say to ask someone to get lost in a very colourful way. “Bhains ki chittad, kheench ko kattar”. Translates to “Pull the buffalo’s ass hard and bite it”. There is a way of saying it. Imagine you are saying this to a jungle drumbeat. In the ta-ka-takara-takarataka hoo haa hoo haa rhythm.Bhains-ki-chittadkheench-ko-kattar. Bhains-ki-chittadkheench-ko-kattar.

SO THIS IS HOW YOU PUT IT IN A SENTENCE

If you are going to speak to a guy say:

“Kya re martingde maatimille. Khoob masti ki tujhe. Ab aako tere chittad po kheeeench ko ek khadi laat detun dekh. Phir pottiyan ke saka ‘kangi-choti-haa-hoo’ karko roleko baithinga”

Translates – What you emaciated mud mixer. You got too much attitude is it? Just wait and watch, I am going to come and pull hard, and give you one upright kick on your arse. Then you will sit like a young errant girl crying comb-plait-ha-hoo.

If you are targetting a girl say:

“Kya ge maatimilli. Woh khadmoot potte se baatan karleko ko thi so? Kheench ko ek khadi laat chittad pe maroongi. Ja ab bhains ki chittad, kheench ko kattar. Aur hamna bhi zari lako de.”

Translates – What you mud mixer, were you talking to that errant boy who pees standing? I am going to pull hard and give you one standing kick on your arse. Go, go pull the buffalo’s arse and chomp on it. And give us some too!”

If you are truly interested in Dakhni as a language check this out. And if you want to formulate more colourful sentences, you may contact me directly .

THE END.

http://www.zanyoutbursts.com/2011/04/kya-ba-so-ba-ji-ji-learning-to-speak.html

.

by Guest Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:33 am

goodcitizn wrote:Rashmun: If the Dhakini you refer to is a form of Urdu spoken in Tamil Nadu, I have heard this tongue spoken by muslims to each other, not by any others. The same goes for the dialect Sowrashtrians speak to each other in Tamil Nadu. But none of these have any bearing on Tamil or any other south indian language. If at all you want to be credible, consider saying that Sanskrit words are prevalent in most south indian languages, not Urdu or Dachini.

If any non-Hindi language, even Swahili for that matter, was forced upon a whole generation of people for 46+ years by hook or crook, like the north indians did in south india, even a rickshaw guy will be somewhat conversant in that tongue. That's what imposition means.

Almost all cities in the world originated as market places (mandis). This was only possible when the productive forces had developed to an extent that people were producing more than they could themselves consume, and hence the surplus had to be sold or exchanged. In other words, commodities (i.e. goods for sale or exchange, and not for self consumption) began to be produced.
Since the seller and the purchaser had to have a known place where the transaction of sale and purchase could take place, market places (mandis) were created, which later became cities.

Now the seller and purchaser must have a common language, otherwise the transaction of sale would not be possible. Hence Khariboli arose as that common language of the market.

To give an illustration, in Allahabad (where I have mostly lived) Khariboli is spoken in the city, but in the rural areas around Allahabad city the dialect spoken is Avadhi (in which Tulsidas wrote his Ramcharitmanas). In Mathura city Khariboli is spoken, but in the rural areas around Mathura Brijbhasha (the language of Surdas) is spoken. In Benaras city or the other eastern cities of U.P. Khariboli is spoken, but in the rural areas around these cities Bhojpuri is spoken. In parts of northern Bihar Maithili is the rural dialect (in which the great poet Vidyapati wrote) but in the cities there also Khariboli is spoken. In Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh Khariboli is spoken in the cities, but in the rural areas local dialects (e.g. Mewari amd Marwari in Rajasthan) are spoken which an outsider cannot understand.

This shows that in vast areas of north India the rural population speaks different dialects, but the urban population had a common language, Khariboli. How did this happen?

This happened because a vast common market had been created in India (due to the development of the productive forces) even before the coming of the Mughals. A trader traveling from Bihar or Madhya Pradesh could easily sell his goods in a city in Uttar Pradesh or Rajasthan or Punjab because there was a common language, Khariboli, which both seller and purchaser knew (apart from knowing their local dialects). Thus Khariboli is the common language of the cities in large parts of India. Even in many parts of the non-Hindi speaking belt Khariboli is understood and spoken as a second language. Thus, if one goes to Kolkata or Bangalore or Gujarat or Lahore or Karachi or even in many parts of south India he can converse in Khariboli with people living in the cities (though there might be difficulty in rural areas).

http://kgfindia.com/jamia-speech-on-urdu.php

by Guest Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:42 am

Rashmun wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:Rashmun: If the Dhakini you refer to is a form of Urdu spoken in Tamil Nadu, I have heard this tongue spoken by muslims to each other, not by any others. The same goes for the dialect Sowrashtrians speak to each other in Tamil Nadu. But none of these have any bearing on Tamil or any other south indian language. If at all you want to be credible, consider saying that Sanskrit words are prevalent in most south indian languages, not Urdu or Dachini.

If any non-Hindi language, even Swahili for that matter, was forced upon a whole generation of people for 46+ years by hook or crook, like the north indians did in south india, even a rickshaw guy will be somewhat conversant in that tongue. That's what imposition means.

Almost all cities in the world originated as market places (mandis). This was only possible when the productive forces had developed to an extent that people were producing more than they could themselves consume, and hence the surplus had to be sold or exchanged. In other words, commodities (i.e. goods for sale or exchange, and not for self consumption) began to be produced.
Since the seller and the purchaser had to have a known place where the transaction of sale and purchase could take place, market places (mandis) were created, which later became cities.

Now the seller and purchaser must have a common language, otherwise the transaction of sale would not be possible. Hence Khariboli arose as that common language of the market.

To give an illustration, in Allahabad (where I have mostly lived) Khariboli is spoken in the city, but in the rural areas around Allahabad city the dialect spoken is Avadhi (in which Tulsidas wrote his Ramcharitmanas). In Mathura city Khariboli is spoken, but in the rural areas around Mathura Brijbhasha (the language of Surdas) is spoken. In Benaras city or the other eastern cities of U.P. Khariboli is spoken, but in the rural areas around these cities Bhojpuri is spoken. In parts of northern Bihar Maithili is the rural dialect (in which the great poet Vidyapati wrote) but in the cities there also Khariboli is spoken. In Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh Khariboli is spoken in the cities, but in the rural areas local dialects (e.g. Mewari amd Marwari in Rajasthan) are spoken which an outsider cannot understand.

This shows that in vast areas of north India the rural population speaks different dialects, but the urban population had a common language, Khariboli. How did this happen?

This happened because a vast common market had been created in India (due to the development of the productive forces) even before the coming of the Mughals. A trader traveling from Bihar or Madhya Pradesh could easily sell his goods in a city in Uttar Pradesh or Rajasthan or Punjab because there was a common language, Khariboli, which both seller and purchaser knew (apart from knowing their local dialects). Thus Khariboli is the common language of the cities in large parts of India. Even in many parts of the non-Hindi speaking belt Khariboli is understood and spoken as a second language. Thus, if one goes to Kolkata or Bangalore or Gujarat or Lahore or Karachi or even in many parts of south India he can converse in Khariboli with people living in the cities (though there might be difficulty in rural areas).

http://kgfindia.com/jamia-speech-on-urdu.php

WHAT IS KHARIBOLI ?
Khariboli is simple or spoken Hindi, as contrasted to literary Hindi which is used by many writers and public speakers***.

Khariboli is an urban language. It is the first language of the common man in the cities of what is known as the Hindi speaking belt (Uttar Pradesh, Bihar, Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh, Delhi, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, etc.) and is the second language in the cities of many parts of the non-Hindi speaking belt, not only in India but also in Pakistan.****

***For instance, in Khariboli (or Hindustani) we say “udhar dekhiye”, while in Hindi we say “udhar avlokan keejiye”.
****I may relate a personal experience. I was traveling in a taxi from Hyderabad in Andhra Pradesh to Gulbarga in Karnataka where I had to attend a function. The taxi driver was a Telugu speaking person while the Professor of Gulbarga University who came to fetch me was a Kannada speaking gentleman, but they spoke to each other in Hindi. I was surprised, since both these persons were South Indians, and I asked them why they were speaking in Hindi. They said that that was because Hindi was the link language for them both.

http://kgfindia.com/jamia-speech-on-urdu.php

by Guest Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:59 am

THIRUVANANTHAPURAM , March 16, 2012
Hindi helped unite people during freedom struggle: ONV

Respecting and learning a language doesn't mean we are ignoring the others and so “Sarwa Bhasha Saraswati” should be our leading light that would help bridge the gap created by languages, poet and Jnanpith laureate O.N.V. Kurup has said.

He was speaking at the diamond jubilee celebrations of the Kerala Hindi Prachar Sabha here on Thursday.

He said Hindi was a language that helped unite people during the independence struggle of the country.

“Hindi is not just a language but it was one of the weapons that helped us in our struggle for independence. There has been no other language that united the people of this nation to fight for their independence. It is in this aspect that the language should be respected,” Mr. Kurup said.

“Similarly, Sanskrit had united many languages across the country. Hence, each language deserves its own place. We should also promote the many languages which have lost their importance owing to the arrival of English,” he added. Speaking at the function, head of Akhil Bhartiya Hindi Samstha Sankh Girish Gandhi said the long history of the successful functioning of the Sabha in a State where Hindi was not the principal language was in itself an achievement for the Hindi Prachar Sabha.

“Malayalam has its own importance. The idea of promoting Hindi by ignoring the regional language is wrong. So we should embrace the differences and promote Hindi. We cannot succeed if we separate the languages from one another,” he added.

Mr. Kurup also launched the new website of the Sabha at the function. The website would introduce to the reader the history of the growth of the Sabha and its activities since its inception.

The site would also contain details on the various courses, classes, and results of the examinations conduced by the organisation. The organisers are also planning to launch an online version of their monthly magazine, Keraljyothi . Seminars and discussions on topics such as the role of Hindi Prachar Sabha in the growth of the language will be held as part of the anniversary celebrations. The function will conclude on March 17.

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/tp-kerala/article3001178.ece

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:21 pm

rashmun -- you have a lot of energy to expend pracharing about languages to others. turn that energy inwards. learn a new indian language besides hindi.

by Guest Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:21 pm

Rashmun wrote:THIRUVANANTHAPURAM , March 16, 2012
Hindi helped unite people during freedom struggle: ONV

Respecting and learning a language doesn't mean we are ignoring the others and so “Sarwa Bhasha Saraswati” should be our leading light that would help bridge the gap created by languages, poet and Jnanpith laureate O.N.V. Kurup has said.

He was speaking at the diamond jubilee celebrations of the Kerala Hindi Prachar Sabha here on Thursday.

He said Hindi was a language that helped unite people during the independence struggle of the country.

“Hindi is not just a language but it was one of the weapons that helped us in our struggle for independence. There has been no other language that united the people of this nation to fight for their independence. It is in this aspect that the language should be respected,” Mr. Kurup said.

“Similarly, Sanskrit had united many languages across the country. Hence, each language deserves its own place. We should also promote the many languages which have lost their importance owing to the arrival of English,” he added. Speaking at the function, head of Akhil Bhartiya Hindi Samstha Sankh Girish Gandhi said the long history of the successful functioning of the Sabha in a State where Hindi was not the principal language was in itself an achievement for the Hindi Prachar Sabha.

“Malayalam has its own importance. The idea of promoting Hindi by ignoring the regional language is wrong. So we should embrace the differences and promote Hindi. We cannot succeed if we separate the languages from one another,” he added.

Mr. Kurup also launched the new website of the Sabha at the function. The website would introduce to the reader the history of the growth of the Sabha and its activities since its inception.

The site would also contain details on the various courses, classes, and results of the examinations conduced by the organisation. The organisers are also planning to launch an online version of their monthly magazine, Keraljyothi . Seminars and discussions on topics such as the role of Hindi Prachar Sabha in the growth of the language will be held as part of the anniversary celebrations. The function will conclude on March 17.

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/tp-kerala/article3001178.ece

Biographical details of the eminent ONV Kurup:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O._N._V._Kurup

by Hellsangel Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:22 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:rashmun -- you have a lot of energy to expend pracharing about langauges to others. turn that energy inwards. learn a new indian language besides hindi.

Still optimistic?

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:29 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:rashmun -- you have a lot of energy to expend pracharing about langauges to others. turn that energy inwards. learn a new indian language besides hindi.

Still optimistic?

if his goal is to promote hindi this is the wrong place to be. firstly, most people here live in the US and don't need hindi or any indian language for that matter. secondly, most people he is preaching to here already know hindi at various levels of fluency. so his efforts are superfluous. the only person he could potentially influence is his new friend and we already know his views on the subject. thirdly, if he wants others to learn another language, it is only fair that we expect the same of him.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:32 pm

speaking of which do "preach" and "prachar" have a common etymology?

by Guest Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:35 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:rashmun -- you have a lot of energy to expend pracharing about langauges to others. turn that energy inwards. learn a new indian language besides hindi.

Still optimistic?

if his goal is to promote hindi this is the wrong place to be. firstly, most people here live in the US and don't need hindi or any indian language for that matter. secondly, most people he is preaching to here already know hindi at various levels of fluency. so his efforts are superfluous. the only person he could potentially influence is his new friend and we already know his views on the subject. thirdly, if he wants others to learn another language, it is only fair that we expect the same of him.

The idea is to remove the hatred for hindi that a few people have unfortunately succumbed to due to anti-hindi propaganda. I don't care if you learn hindi or not. just don't hate the language.

by Guest Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:49 pm

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:rashmun -- you have a lot of energy to expend pracharing about langauges to others. turn that energy inwards. learn a new indian language besides hindi.

Still optimistic?

if his goal is to promote hindi this is the wrong place to be. firstly, most people here live in the US and don't need hindi or any indian language for that matter. secondly, most people he is preaching to here already know hindi at various levels of fluency. so his efforts are superfluous. the only person he could potentially influence is his new friend and we already know his views on the subject. thirdly, if he wants others to learn another language, it is only fair that we expect the same of him.

The idea is to remove the hatred for hindi that a few people have unfortunately succumbed to due to anti-hindi propaganda. I don't care if you learn hindi or not. just don't hate the language.

using the terms 'duckini-cluckini', 'fowl language' ,etc. are all symptomatic of a peculiar hatred for hindi since the southern indian variant of hindi, dakhini, is being targeted by these abusive terms.

by Guest Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:17 pm

Hindi is the language that promotes patriotism and national consciousness, Mr K Babu, Kerala Minister for Fisheries, Ports and Excise, said today. Inaugurating the Hindi Fortnight Celebrations organised by HLL Lifecare Limited here, he said. 'Hindi is deeply entrenched with India's freedom struggle, which was not about freeing India from British rule but also unifying the varied groups of the country's population. Gandhiji put forward Hindi as a national language to bring together the people of India.

The language has a major role in unifying the people of the country and in promoting the concept of 'one nation, one people','the Minister said.

'Youngsters these days are found to be reluctant in learning languages as they feel that it does not bring sufficient employment opportunities,' he added and complimented HLL's earnest efforts for propagating India's national language. Babu also gave away the Rolling Shield for the best implementation of official language policy for the year 2011 to HLL's Kanagala Factory, Belgaum.

Union Minister for Health & Family Welfare,Ghulam Nabi Azad, in a message said, 'As the national language, Hindi ensures its growth by imbibing the spirit of various vernacular languages and unifies the nation.' In his message, Sushil Kumar Shinde, Union Home Minister said, 'Today, not just people interested in knowing India, but also those in commerce and industry are learning Hindi. As such, it becomes important for all of us to promote the use of Hindi. This will benefit us all.'

http://news.webindia123.com/news/articles/India/20121122/2106317.html

by goodcitizn Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:37 pm

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:rashmun -- you have a lot of energy to expend pracharing about langauges to others. turn that energy inwards. learn a new indian language besides hindi.

Still optimistic?

if his goal is to promote hindi this is the wrong place to be. firstly, most people here live in the US and don't need hindi or any indian language for that matter. secondly, most people he is preaching to here already know hindi at various levels of fluency. so his efforts are superfluous. the only person he could potentially influence is his new friend and we already know his views on the subject. thirdly, if he wants others to learn another language, it is only fair that we expect the same of him.

The idea is to remove the hatred for hindi that a few people have unfortunately succumbed to due to anti-hindi propaganda. I don't care if you learn hindi or not. just don't hate the language.

Rushmun: What amazes me is the energy with which you inundate the forum with essays to defend the indefensible. There is a distinct similarity between you and Kayal Vizhi. You both have "agendas" to promote and you don't stop until you have sated the forum with pages of material (not yours to begin with) that are repetitious, logorrheic and comical.

At the risk of inviting an essay answer to a multiple choice exam, let me reiterate that there is a huge difference between hatred towards Hindi and hatred towards the "imposition" of Hindi. My contention has always been with the latter. I don't buy into the link language excuse to justify siphoning out the public coffer for over 46 years, not to mention political arm-twisting, to promote one language over a dozen other Indian languages. And, for the nth time where n is rapidly approaching infinity, let me repeat (as someone who is at least as conversant in Tamil as you are in Hindi) that Tamil has zero to do with any variant of Hindi.

I'd also recommend you to get in touch with your Tamil girl friend to learn a few romantic words so that you could croon to your heart's content in a tongue that is totally foreign to the one that rhymes with bikini.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:50 pm

goodcitizn wrote:Rashmun: If the Dhakini you refer to is a form of Urdu spoken in Tamil Nadu, I have heard this tongue spoken by muslims to each other, not by any others.

the majority of the muslims of TN, and most likely kerala speak tamil and malayalam respectively. islam in TN and kerala is older, of a different origin than the brand of islam of the north that had its origin in the rapacious and pillaging hordes from central asia. islam came to TN and kerala through trade ties. that's why the original muslims of TN and kerala are called marakkayar and mappillas. umaru pulavar composed the seera puranam, an epic poem about the life of prophet mohammad in the style of the kambarayanam entirely in tamil in the 17th century.

the muslims in TN who speak urdu are probably migrants from hyderabad, bijapur and places like that and not from the older marakkayar or mapilla clans.

does this sound like urdu to you?

incidentally the mappillas are called that because the original arab traders who settled in kerala decided to live there for good and married into the local hindu population. their descendants became the mappillas. the marakkayars are called that because they used mara-kalams to arrive on the shores of TN.

here is an article that refers to these two communities by noted south asia scholar sanjay subrahmanyam:
http://www.indowindow.com/akhbar/article.php?article=132&category=4&issue=19

by goodcitizn Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:06 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:Rashmun: If the Dhakini you refer to is a form of Urdu spoken in Tamil Nadu, I have heard this tongue spoken by muslims to each other, not by any others.

the majority of the muslims of TN, and most likely kerala speak tamil and malayalam respectively. islam in TN and kerala is older, of a different origin than the brand of islam of the north that had its origin in the rapacious and pillaging hordes from central asia. islam came to TN and kerala through trade ties. that's why the original muslims of TN and kerala are called marakkayar and mappillas. umaru pulavar composed the seera puranam, an epic poem about the life of prophet mohammad in the style of the kambarayanam entirely in tamil in the 17th century.

the muslims in TN who speak urdu are probably migrants from hyderabad, bijapur and places like that and not from the older marakkayar or mapilla clans.

does this sound like urdu to you?

incidentally the mappillas are called that because the original arab traders who settled in kerala decided to live there for good and married into the local hindu population. their descendants became the mappillas. the marakkayars are called that because they used mara-kalams to arrive on the shores of TN.

here is an article that refers to these two communities by noted south asia scholar sanjay subrahmanyam:
[url=http://www.indowindow.com/akhbar/article.php?article=132&category=4&issue=19

http://www.indowindow.com/akhbar/article.php?article=132&category=4&issue=19[/quote[/url]]

Interesting article. Yes, I have heard of Umaru Pulavar although I am unfamiliar with of his writings. I was merely responding to Rashmun who is under the unshakeable belief that Urdu or Dachini is spoken by Tamilians (one species belonging to the tribe of southerners) whereas I have only heard this language spoken by muslims. In Madurai they used to be called Dabbai Thulukkans.

by Guest Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:18 pm

goodcitizn wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:rashmun -- you have a lot of energy to expend pracharing about langauges to others. turn that energy inwards. learn a new indian language besides hindi.

Still optimistic?

if his goal is to promote hindi this is the wrong place to be. firstly, most people here live in the US and don't need hindi or any indian language for that matter. secondly, most people he is preaching to here already know hindi at various levels of fluency. so his efforts are superfluous. the only person he could potentially influence is his new friend and we already know his views on the subject. thirdly, if he wants others to learn another language, it is only fair that we expect the same of him.

The idea is to remove the hatred for hindi that a few people have unfortunately succumbed to due to anti-hindi propaganda. I don't care if you learn hindi or not. just don't hate the language.

Rushmun: What amazes me is the energy with which you inundate the forum with essays to defend the indefensible. There is a distinct similarity between you and Kayal Vizhi. You both have "agendas" to promote and you don't stop until you have sated the forum with pages of material (not yours to begin with) that are repetitious, logorrheic and comical.

At the risk of inviting an essay answer to a multiple choice exam, let me reiterate that there is a huge difference between hatred towards Hindi and hatred towards the "imposition" of Hindi. My contention has always been with the latter. I don't buy into the link language excuse to justify siphoning out the public coffer for over 46 years, not to mention political arm-twisting, to promote one language over a dozen other Indian languages. And, for the nth time where n is rapidly approaching infinity, let me repeat (as someone who is at least as conversant in Tamil as you are in Hindi) that Tamil has zero to do with any variant of Hindi.

I'd also recommend you to get in touch with your Tamil girl friend to learn a few romantic words so that you could croon to your heart's content in a tongue that is totally foreign to the one that rhymes with bikini.

The relationship between Dakhini (a dialect of hindi) and Hindi on one hand and Tamil on the other exists through their relationship with sanskrit. You yourself admitted in an earlier post that sanskrit has influenced tamil. I am not talking of your wife and mother in this discussion so i would suggest that you extent the same courtesy to me and do not bring in my friends or relatives in your posts.

by Guest Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:34 pm

Hindi to be taught in Australian schools

Julia Gillard says Asia’s rise is not only unstoppable, it is gathering pace
Australia on Sunday unveiled an ambitious plan to forge deeper links with India and other booming economies of the region, including through teaching languages like Hindi and Mandarin in its schools.

“While Australia was changing — Asia was changing too. Whatever else this century brings, it will bring Asia’s return to global leadership, Asia’s rise,” said Prime Minister Julia Gillard, who was recently on her maiden official visit to India.

“This [Asia’s rise] is not only unstoppable, it is gathering pace,” Ms. Gillard said, releasing a sweeping policy blueprint entitled ‘Asian Century White Paper’ aimed at maximising links with Asia, which will power Australia into the world’s top 10 wealthiest nations by 2025.

“Above all, success for an open Australia in a middle-class Asia starts in the classrooms, training centres and lecture theatres of this nation,” the Prime Minister said.

All Australian schools would engage with at least one school in Asia to support the teaching of a priority Asian language — Mandarin, Hindi, Indonesian or Japanese, she said.

“Unlike in ages past, we will not settle for a student sitting at the back of the class not learning and then drifting away from school early. We can no longer tell ourselves this is all OK because a manual job will materialise for the child who cannot read, write or count,” she said.

Ms. Gillard noted that Australia was a friend of all countries.

“We are supporting the stabilising presence of the United States, a strong defence force, building habits of trust and cooperation in our region,” she said, adding “We have an ally in Washington — respect in Beijing — and more, an open door in Jakarta and Delhi, Tokyo and Seoul.”

Ms. Gillard said the region would be home to most of the world’s middle class by as early as 2025.

“This is good news for Australia and it should drive a profound change in our thinking about our economic relationship with Asia,” the Prime Minister said.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/hindi-to-be-taught-in-australian-schools/article4041318.ece

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:53 pm

there is no profit in learning hindi. there are no scientific, mathemtical, economic, or business journals that publish their work in hindi. there are no great works of literature that one would like to read in the original in hindi. no global organizations conduct their workaday business in hindi.

the best use for hindi i can think of is the marginal enjoyment that comes from understanding hindustani khayals. even that is not required because hindustani music is mostly about music. the libretto is of tertiary importance.

by goodcitizn Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:54 pm

Inasmuch as English words used in Tamil (e.g., car, radio etc.,) are not considered Tamil, Sanskrit words used in Tamil (e.g., visesham, vivekam etc.,) are not considered Tamil. These languages have no bearing on Tamil nor do they have any relationship to Tamil. Hindi or Dhakini is totally foreign and unrelated to Tamil.

Unless you learn some rudiments of Tamil, you are incompetent to discuss the relationship Tamil has with any language, let alone Hindi. And it is extremely unlikely that, sitting on that high Hindi horse of yours, you'd even condescend to learn a south indian language to comprehend what is being repeated ad nauseum: "Tamil has no relationship to Dhakini or any other variant of Hindi". All you have done is to make excuses as to why you haven't learned even a smattering of the Tamil lexicon.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:58 pm

high horse isn't quite how i'd describe it. more like a mule, and a particularly slow and stubborn one. and it isn't condescension, but just plain vanilla stupidity.

by Idéfix Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:58 pm

Khariboli is spoken in urban centers of Australia like Perth, Sydney and Melbourne. We should use Hindi as the link language with Australia. Also for trade to take place we need a continental language that connects Asia. Without that no trade is possible. I suggest Mandarin because Khariboli is an offshoot of Mandarin. Time for us to teach Mandarin to all UPians using government funds.

by Hellsangel Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:01 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:high horse isn't quite how i'd describe it. more like a mule, and a particularly slow and stubborn one. and it isn't condescension, but just plain vanilla stupidity.

Actually an ass, sorry, a middle-parted head.

by Guest Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:01 pm

goodcitizn wrote:Inasmuch as English words used in Tamil (e.g., car, radio etc.,) are not considered Tamil, Sanskrit words used in Tamil (e.g., visesham, vivekam etc.,) are not considered Tamil. These languages have no bearing on Tamil nor do they have any relationship to Tamil. Hindi or Dhakini is totally foreign and unrelated to Tamil.

Unless you learn some rudiments of Tamil, you are incompetent to discuss the relationship Tamil has with any language, let alone Hindi. And it is extremely unlikely that, sitting on that high Hindi horse of yours, you'd even condescend to learn a south indian language to comprehend what is being repeated ad nauseum: "Tamil has no relationship to Dhakini or any other variant of Hindi". All you have done is to make excuses as to why you haven't learned even a smattering of the Tamil lexicon.

On the contrary everyday tamil words like 'neer' (for water) are of sanskrit origin. Moreover the first text on tamil grammar (Tolkappiyam) acknowledges its debt to sanskrit.

by Idéfix Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:03 pm

I also applaud Rashmun's courage in steadfastly ignoring the news about his favorite Sabha. Way to go Master Rashmun!

by Idéfix Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:04 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:there is no profit in learning hindi. there are no scientific, mathemtical, economic, or business journals that publish their work in hindi. there are no great works of literature that one would like to read in the original in hindi. no global organizations conduct their workaday business in hindi.

the best use for hindi i can think of is the marginal enjoyment that comes from understanding hindustani khayals. even that is not required because hindustani music is mostly about music. the libretto is of tertiary importance.

Even the Hindi Prachar Sabha conducts is business in English. Look at their website!

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