Why "sir" at the end of a name?

by indophile Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:06 pm

I wonder about the genesis for Indians showing respect or reverence by appending "sir" or "madam" to people's first names (Kamal sir, Rajni sir. Chiranjeevi sir, Sushila madam, etc.). It doesn't appear to be a literal translation from SI languages. Could it be Hindi translation, e.g., Bacchan saab (saheb), Akshay saab, Burman saab etc. But for women there seems to be no "madam" equivalent to be appended to the name. For example, it's not the norm to call a non-muslim woman"saheba" (No Lata saheba, Asha saheba - just Lata-ji and Asha-ji). So what gives?

by southindian Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:15 pm

The British has nailed this in us prettty well. It will take another few centuries to get this out of India's system.

by Idéfix Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:16 pm

Another curious thing is that the word sir used as a prefix, not a suffix, in its original context. And that's compatible for Indian tradition (Sri/Shri/Thiru). So I don't know why we say Rajni-sir instead of Sir Rajni.

by Maria S Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:20 pm

I don't know the origins of usage Indo Sir..

But, terms of endearment-affection/respect were commonly added to the end of the person's name (in many communities in TN)..Sevaayya, Indoanna, Impedimentamma, Mariakka..if it's an younger person..Seven paappa, Carvaka thambi etc..and some professional terms were added too.. Sandilya doctor, Max teacher (vaathiyar)..and then there is Profession + respect..simply Doctoramma, Collectorayya etc.

by Idéfix Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:30 pm

Maria S wrote:I don't know the origins of usage Indo Sir..

But, terms of endearment-affection/respect were commonly added to the end of the person's name (in many communities in TN)..Sevaayya, Indoanna, Impedimentamma, Mariakka..if it's an younger person..Seven paappa, Carvaka thambi etc..and some professional terms were added too.. Sandilya doctor, Max teacher (vaathiyar)..and then there is Profession + respect..simply Doctoramma, Collectorayya etc.

And this is true not just in southern languages but also in Hindi. I was also reminded of the Telugu practice of suffixing "gAru" to a name as a sign of respect.

by indophile Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:39 pm

Hindi too adds its own version of "garu" - Gandhiji, Punditji.

by indophile Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:39 pm

Hindi too adds its own version of "garu" - Gandhiji, Punditji.

by Maria S Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:40 pm

I would think it's the same in many other places, esp. in Kerala..they use a lot of terms of endearment..like Tracy kutty (hey got to use it!) and Achan (father/father figure) too.

by Guest Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:48 pm

Maria S wrote:I would think it's the same in many other places, esp. in Kerala..they use a lot of terms of endearment..like Tracy kutty (hey got to use it!) and Achan (father/father figure) too.

no wonder how many times i hear it, i still get shocked

by Guest Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:49 pm

Vidya Bagchi wrote:
Maria S wrote:I would think it's the same in many other places, esp. in Kerala..they use a lot of terms of endearment..like Tracy kutty (hey got to use it!) and Achan (father/father figure) too.

no wonder how many times i hear it, i still get shocked

I meant 'read', not 'hear'. When saying the diff between kuTTY and kutty is pretty clear.

by indophile Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:01 pm

Vidya Bagchi wrote:
Vidya Bagchi wrote:
Maria S wrote:I would think it's the same in many other places, esp. in Kerala..they use a lot of terms of endearment..like Tracy kutty (hey got to use it!) and Achan (father/father figure) too.

no wonder how many times i hear it, i still get shocked

I meant 'read', not 'hear'. When saying the diff between kuTTY and kutty is pretty clear.

LOL

by Jeremiah Mburuburu Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:05 pm

the usage arises from the sycophancy of the hindu. a sycophant is a servile flatterer.

by Hellsangel Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:10 pm

Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:the usage arises from the sycophancy of the hindu. a sycophant is a servile flatterer.

I had no idea so many Hindus stepped on the old dog's tail.

by Maria S Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:11 pm

Vidya Bagchi wrote:

I meant 'read', not 'hear'. When saying the diff between kuTTY and kutty is pretty clear.

That is too funny Tracyamma:)

by FluteHolder Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:14 pm

I think it is due to long rule by Brits. I moderate a traders/finance related forum where ppl from allover participate. And most of who use 'sir' are from India/Pak/Bangladesh/Asia. None of the European members use this to address anyone. I guess the british rule is the reason..

by Idéfix Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:26 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:the usage arises from the sycophancy of the hindu. a sycophant is a servile flatterer.

I had no idea so many Hindus stepped on the old dog's tail.

I suspect some degree of screwing sideways may be involved as well.

by Jeremiah Mburuburu Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:52 pm

panini press wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:the usage arises from the sycophancy of the hindu. a sycophant is a servile flatterer.

I had no idea so many Hindus stepped on the old dog's tail.
I suspect some degree of screwing sideways may be involved as well.

it's interesting that you only now "suspect" that hindus screwed one another systematically for about 3,500 years. the sycophantic sirring that indophile speaks of is a natural outcome of the hindu caste system.

by Idéfix Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:01 pm

Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:
panini press wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:the usage arises from the sycophancy of the hindu. a sycophant is a servile flatterer.

I had no idea so many Hindus stepped on the old dog's tail.
I suspect some degree of screwing sideways may be involved as well.
it's interesting that you only now "suspect" that hindus screwed one another systematically for about 3,500 years. the sycophantic sirring that indophile speaks of is a natural outcome of the hindu caste system.

Congratulations on your reading comprehension skills.

by goodcitizn Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:03 pm

Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:
panini press wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:the usage arises from the sycophancy of the hindu. a sycophant is a servile flatterer.

I had no idea so many Hindus stepped on the old dog's tail.
I suspect some degree of screwing sideways may be involved as well.
it's interesting that you only now "suspect" that hindus screwed one another systematically for about 3,500 years. the sycophantic sirring that indophile speaks of is a natural outcome of the hindu caste system.

You have no basis for saying that the hindus used "sir" as sycophants. Did they teach you in the Bible Class?

by Idéfix Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:05 pm

goodcitizn wrote:You have no basis for saying that the hindus used "sir" as sycophants.

If everything Jerji said had to have some basis in fact, it would be as if the One suddenly struck him dumb.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:10 pm

indophile wrote:I wonder about the genesis for Indians showing respect or reverence by appending "sir" or "madam" to people's first names (Kamal sir, Rajni sir. Chiranjeevi sir, Sushila madam, etc.). It doesn't appear to be a literal translation from SI languages. Could it be Hindi translation, e.g., Bacchan saab (saheb), Akshay saab, Burman saab etc. But for women there seems to be no "madam" equivalent to be appended to the name. For example, it's not the norm to call a non-muslim woman"saheba" (No Lata saheba, Asha saheba - just Lata-ji and Asha-ji). So what gives?

It is funny...once I went to some workplace in India and asked for Dr. Bigshot. The Peon and the PA were flabbergasted and asked me "are you asking about Bigshot Sir how can you say his name?" forgetting they themselves were using his name. I usually dont do such unIndian mistakes but I had just landed the day before and yet to get into my Dhoti-Umbrella mode.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:30 pm

Maria S wrote:I don't know the origins of usage Indo Sir..

But, terms of endearment-affection/respect were commonly added to the end of the person's name (in many communities in TN)..Sevaayya, Indoanna, Impedimentamma, Mariakka..if it's an younger person..Seven paappa, Carvaka thambi etc..and some professional terms were added too.. Sandilya doctor, Max teacher (vaathiyar)..and then there is Profession + respect..simply Doctoramma, Collectorayya etc.

Perfect answer.

From the young age we are "trained" to address elders as Maria Aunty, MD Unkil, JM Thatha, etc... that slowly transforms to Maria Madam, Indo Sir to people at higher positions.

Madam sonnenganaa correctu thaanunga.

by goodcitizn Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:33 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
indophile wrote:I wonder about the genesis for Indians showing respect or reverence by appending "sir" or "madam" to people's first names (Kamal sir, Rajni sir. Chiranjeevi sir, Sushila madam, etc.). It doesn't appear to be a literal translation from SI languages. Could it be Hindi translation, e.g., Bacchan saab (saheb), Akshay saab, Burman saab etc. But for women there seems to be no "madam" equivalent to be appended to the name. For example, it's not the norm to call a non-muslim woman"saheba" (No Lata saheba, Asha saheba - just Lata-ji and Asha-ji). So what gives?

It is funny...once I went to some workplace in India and asked for Dr. Bigshot. The Peon and the PA were flabbergasted and asked me "are you asking about Bigshot Sir how can you say his name?" forgetting they themselves were using his name. I usually dont do such unIndian mistakes but I had just landed the day before and yet to get into my Dhoti-Umbrella mode.

I don't think it is true of doctors in the medical profession, having worked in healthcare in India. "Doctor" in and of itself is a term of respect. But sometimes they abbreviate, not say the full name. E.g., Dr. B. C. S. instead of Dr. B. C. Srinivas.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:33 pm

goodcitizn wrote:
Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:
panini press wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:the usage arises from the sycophancy of the hindu. a sycophant is a servile flatterer.

I had no idea so many Hindus stepped on the old dog's tail.
I suspect some degree of screwing sideways may be involved as well.
it's interesting that you only now "suspect" that hindus screwed one another systematically for about 3,500 years. the sycophantic sirring that indophile speaks of is a natural outcome of the hindu caste system.

You have no basis for saying that the hindus used "sir" as sycophants. Did they teach you in the ~~Bible~~ Babble Class?

**FIXED**

by nevada Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:54 pm

Why do North Indians say "Sirji" instead of just "Sir"?

by Guest Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:04 pm

nevada wrote:Why do North Indians say "Sirji" instead of just "Sir"?

lol sir is just not respectful enough

other examples are aunty ji mummy ji and madam ji

hthG

by indophile Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:14 pm

We do it in Telugu too --- Seetamma talli (Seeta mother mother).

by Guest Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:53 pm

indophile wrote:I wonder about the genesis for Indians showing respect or reverence by appending "sir" or "madam" to people's first names (Kamal sir, Rajni sir. Chiranjeevi sir, Sushila madam, etc.). It doesn't appear to be a literal translation from SI languages. Could it be Hindi translation, e.g., Bacchan saab (saheb), Akshay saab, Burman saab etc. But for women there seems to be no "madam" equivalent to be appended to the name. For example, it's not the norm to call a non-muslim woman"saheba" (No Lata saheba, Asha saheba - just Lata-ji and Asha-ji). So what gives?

In Telugu, we say garu. right? Kamal garu, Rajini garu, Chiranjeevi garu, Sushila garu, etc. Sir is something similar, i guess. It's something showing respect, in english.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:06 pm

nevada wrote:Why do North Indians say "Sirji" instead of just "Sir"?

Hm... you have a great point.

So, it is all the more important for one to identify "self" on SUCH so that we can address them correctly.

I would not want to call JM Sir as Sirji or Rashmun Sirji as simply Rashmun Sir

by indophile Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:41 pm

kinnera wrote:
indophile wrote:I wonder about the genesis for Indians showing respect or reverence by appending "sir" or "madam" to people's first names (Kamal sir, Rajni sir. Chiranjeevi sir, Sushila madam, etc.). It doesn't appear to be a literal translation from SI languages. Could it be Hindi translation, e.g., Bacchan saab (saheb), Akshay saab, Burman saab etc. But for women there seems to be no "madam" equivalent to be appended to the name. For example, it's not the norm to call a non-muslim woman"saheba" (No Lata saheba, Asha saheba - just Lata-ji and Asha-ji). So what gives?

In Telugu, we say garu. right? Kamal garu, Rajini garu, Chiranjeevi garu, Sushila garu, etc. Sir is something similar, i guess. It's something showing respect, in english.

I thought "sir" is a little more respectful than a "garu," - more like a Sree, Sreemaan, Ayya. Long time ago the king of Vizianagaram received printed court summons which appended a "garu" next to his name. He got so offended that there was only his name + garu instead of Sree Sree Sree + his name + maharaajulam-gaaru. He had his lawyer sue the govt. for disrespecting his august royal persona, and when the suit got dismissed as frivolous he appealed the decision in the Madras High Court, and then went on to Privy Council in London (Supreme Court in those days). He lost there too.

by Idéfix Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:46 pm

indophile wrote:
kinnera wrote:
indophile wrote:I wonder about the genesis for Indians showing respect or reverence by appending "sir" or "madam" to people's first names (Kamal sir, Rajni sir. Chiranjeevi sir, Sushila madam, etc.). It doesn't appear to be a literal translation from SI languages. Could it be Hindi translation, e.g., Bacchan saab (saheb), Akshay saab, Burman saab etc. But for women there seems to be no "madam" equivalent to be appended to the name. For example, it's not the norm to call a non-muslim woman"saheba" (No Lata saheba, Asha saheba - just Lata-ji and Asha-ji). So what gives?

In Telugu, we say garu. right? Kamal garu, Rajini garu, Chiranjeevi garu, Sushila garu, etc. Sir is something similar, i guess. It's something showing respect, in english.
I thought "sir" is a little more respectful than a "garu," - more like a Sree, Sreemaan, Ayya. Long time ago the king of Vizianagaram received printed court summons which appended a "garu" next to his name. He got so offended that there was only his name + garu instead of Sree Sree Sree + his name + maharaajulam-gaaru. He had his lawyer sue the govt. for disrespecting his august royal persona, and when the suit got dismissed as frivolous he appealed the decision in the Madras High Court, and then went on to Privy Council in London (Supreme Court in those days). He lost there too.

Hahaha! Garu is a more lightly thrown around signal of respect, like ji. Sir-ji is the real deal.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:00 pm

indophile wrote:
kinnera wrote:
indophile wrote:I wonder about the genesis for Indians showing respect or reverence by appending "sir" or "madam" to people's first names (Kamal sir, Rajni sir. Chiranjeevi sir, Sushila madam, etc.). It doesn't appear to be a literal translation from SI languages. Could it be Hindi translation, e.g., Bacchan saab (saheb), Akshay saab, Burman saab etc. But for women there seems to be no "madam" equivalent to be appended to the name. For example, it's not the norm to call a non-muslim woman"saheba" (No Lata saheba, Asha saheba - just Lata-ji and Asha-ji). So what gives?

In Telugu, we say garu. right? Kamal garu, Rajini garu, Chiranjeevi garu, Sushila garu, etc. Sir is something similar, i guess. It's something showing respect, in english.
I thought "sir" is a little more respectful than a "garu," - more like a Sree, Sreemaan, Ayya. Long time ago the king of Vizianagaram received printed court summons which appended a "garu" next to his name. He got so offended that there was only his name + garu instead of Sree Sree Sree + his name + maharaajulam-gaaru. He had his lawyer sue the govt. for disrespecting his august royal persona, and when the suit got dismissed as frivolous he appealed the decision in the Madras High Court, and then went on to Privy Council in London (Supreme Court in those days). He lost there too.

Indo Sirji:

you See...King jis in those days spent all their time on such frivoulous things reducing their time for corruption and atrocities.

our politicians and Babus also should focus on such important things.

by Captain Bhankas Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:59 am

Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:the usage arises from the sycophancy of the hindu. a sycophant is a servile flatterer.

the usage arises from the hindu tradition of respecting elders while addressing them and not sycophancy. a hindu always addresses an elder by using a suffix of respect (ji, rao, sheth etc.) while speaking in his mother tongue. but when he wants to address the same person in english he uses "sir" because that's the only way respecting an elder while addressing him in english.

you have spent 22 years in south india and 2 in baroda and yet have failed to make such a simple observation. rearrange the following letters a hundred times to know my opinion about it.

L A F I

by indophile Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:58 am

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

Indo Sirji:

you See...King jis in those days spent all their time on such frivoulous things reducing their time for corruption and atrocities.

our politicians and Babus also should focus on such important things.[/quote]
This king throughout his life was used to people displaying "ati-vinayam" to him; so he could not understand that a printed form letter does not afford such courtesies. But the guy did great service to arts like music & harikatha. Dwaram Venkataswamy Naidu, Nedunuri Krishnamurthy, movie singers Susheela and Ghantasaala are all originally from that college.
About frivolous law suits in old days (not related to the subject of this thread) - there was another one that went all the way to the Privy Council. What I know of the story is - there are two sub-castes among Iyengars - Vadakalai and Thengalai, with Vadakalai's sport a "U"-shaped naamam and Thengalai's sport a "Y"-shaped naamam. The dispute was whether the temple elephant of the Kanchipuram Varadarajaswamy temple should sport a "U" naamam or a "Y" naamam during some festival procession. So they went to court. The 500-page judgment said the elephant should wear a "U." But the Y's were real weasels. They arranged for a Y on the elephant's forehead and U on his ass (thereby satifying the court judgment that the elephant wear a U, and the court being silent whether the elephant could wear a Y or not). The U's went to Madras High Court. This time the High Court reversed the lower court and ordered a Y on the elephant everywhere. Not to be outdone the "U"s hired a local fixer who arranged for the elephant's body to wear a Y covered by a shiny white cloth mask with a bright U displayed on it. Of course, the parties ended up at the Privy Council. I believe the final decision was that the "U"s and "Y"s should alternate every year.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:31 am

indophile wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

Indo Sirji:

you See...King jis in those days spent all their time on such frivoulous things reducing their time for corruption and atrocities.

our politicians and Babus also should focus on such important things.

I believe the final decision was that the "U"s and "Y"s should alternate every year.[/quote]

You are right. while I don't recall any Privay Council,I remember very well, this case was decided finally in Supreme court in the mid 70s.

......Here from Uncle Google...

by indophile Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:39 am

So, it's more recent, not a story of the British times. Thanks.

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