The New Popeaandi

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:26 pm

...its amazing how the freedom-loving westerners can worship a Popeaandi - who is elected by a bunch of never married men (beardless boys count) with no participation or say by its 600 million women.

Jesus....this is the ultimate remnants of white, male, chauvinistic racism.

Now the new popeaandi will pontificate about democracy, marriage vows, celibacy, equal rights to women, anti-abortion, human rights to the colored, and all of these combined as well.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:29 pm

why popeaandi? why not popanar?

by FluteHolder Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:30 pm

I think the Latino selection is due to the decline of faith in Europe/US and to get the $/followers from South American countries where all the investments have moved after strict financial regulations in US/Europe.

by Propagandhi711 Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:40 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:...its amazing how the freedom-loving westerners can worship a Popeaandi - who is elected by a bunch of never married men (beardless boys count) with no participation or say by its 600 million women.

Jesus....this is the ultimate remnants of white, male, chauvinistic racism.

Now the new popeaandi will pontificate about democracy, marriage vows, celibacy, equal rights to women, anti-abortion, human rights to the colored, and all of these combined as well.

my hands hurt from counting all the hindu female priests. can you please take over?

by Idéfix Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:17 pm

FluteHolder wrote:I think the Latino selection is due to the decline of faith in Europe/US and to get the $/followers from South American countries where all the investments have moved after strict financial regulations in US/Europe.

The Latino selection is because the Church is losing support in Latin America. For several centuries now, Latin America was locked up for the church; its people were mostly Catholic and more religious than those of Europe. But I read somewhere that they "lost" more souls to various forms of Protestantism in the last 30-40 years in Latin America than they did during the European Reformation in the 16th or 17th centuries. They want to energize Roman Catholicism in Latin America and stop the steady stream of conversions to Pentecostal churches, or worse, to non-belief.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:53 pm

Propagandhi711 wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:...its amazing how the freedom-loving westerners can worship a Popeaandi - who is elected by a bunch of never married men (beardless boys count) with no participation or say by its 600 million women.

Jesus....this is the ultimate remnants of white, male, chauvinistic racism.

Now the new popeaandi will pontificate about democracy, marriage vows, celibacy, equal rights to women, anti-abortion, human rights to the colored, and all of these combined as well.

my hands hurt from counting all the hindu female priests. can you please take over?

How many female priests are ELECTED by MALE Panchayat? Then you are right and I agree..... BTW, there ARE a handful of female priests in India.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:56 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:why popeaandi? why not popanar?

I have used Tamil priests refer to him as "Pope Aandavar" but I think it is not right to equate him to God. So "Aandi = one who has given up everything and has nothing" is more apt.

Hence Popeaandi ki Jai.

(How about Mr. Sundar Pichai? (I think Mr. Pichai - meaning Mr. Beggar -he morphed his dad's name from Pitchumani Iyer to Pichai. Of course, he is a multi-multi- millionaire.)

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:03 pm

i spent a good portion of my k-12 years in a jesuit school. i rather liked the priests who taught me. good for them that one of their own got elected pope.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:10 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i spent a good portion of my k-12 years in a jesuit school. i rather liked the priests who taught me. good for them that one of their own got elected pope.

Well I have some connections to the Padre school...have "seen" some stuffs but also have good opinion. I met Fr. Jerome D'Souza briefly when my dad took me to meet with him in his quarters. very stately kind man. Even he could not resist asking my dad if he would like to convert years earlier. There lies their "dignified, justifiable agenda" For this reason my dad was pro - MCC and anti-Loyola atmosphere.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:16 pm

in the years that i spent in a catholic school, never once was i asked if i wanted to convert to catholicism. my teachers were a motley bunch of hindus, lay christians, and christian priests. the only connection to christianity we had was the morning prayer we used to recite at assembly, the lord's prayer. my friends and i, nearly all hindu, didn't even give it a second thought after the morning assembly. i have nothing but fond memories of the jesuit brothers who taught me.

by goodcitizn Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:40 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:...its amazing how the freedom-loving westerners can worship a Popeaandi - who is elected by a bunch of never married men (beardless boys count) with no participation or say by its 600 million women.

Jesus....this is the ultimate remnants of white, male, chauvinistic racism.

Now the new popeaandi will pontificate about democracy, marriage vows, celibacy, equal rights to women, anti-abortion, human rights to the colored, and all of these combined as well.

Why single out whites or Christianity? Bigotry is practiced by most, if not all, religions. I can't think of any religious priest who openly advocates same-sex marriage or approves of abortion. Women priests are rare. Racism goes both ways. Whites are considered foreign elements from a religious perspective not only in India but in various other countries like Japan, Saudi Arabia or Indonesia. And the reverse is true as in the U.S. where black churches were established mainly due to racism. The only hope for true equality to exist is if religion is taken out of the equation. I'm tired of all the hoopla about a new pope. Just a lot of smoke is all it is.

by Rishi Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:43 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:in the years that i spent in a catholic school, never once was i asked if i wanted to convert to catholicism. my teachers were a motley bunch of hindus, lay christians, and christian priests. the only connection to christianity we had was the morning prayer we used to recite at assembly, the lord's prayer. my friends and i, nearly all hindu, didn't even give it a second thought after the morning assembly. i have nothing but fond memories of the jesuit brothers who taught me.

Just because you were not asked does not mean that there was never any subtle pressure to convert Hindu students at the Catholic/Christian institutions in the past. I know a man whose father went to St. Joseph college, Tiruchy way back in 1930's and was told by padres that they would send him to Yale University if he converted.

Btw, were you ever told by the authorities in your high school that it was OK with them if you did not want to recite the Lord's prayer?

The Hindu students at the Christian school I went to were forced everyday to sing the song "Deva Pithaa Ennai Meypenallo" (Lord is my Shepard). One day, very few students chose to sing. Mr. Kuriakose, the principal dragged about 10 kids, all of them Hindus, made them stand next to him and forced them to sing.

One of the purposes of acculturation of Hindu kids in the Christian/Catholic school is to make them 'secular' and thus accept the proselytizing of poor Hindus everywhere else.

by Maria S Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:59 pm

Let me guess..who could have possibly coined the term "Popeaandi"? Hmm, hmm..that took a whole 2 secs:)

Enna U..why this Popeaandi veri!

He seems like a simple "human"..and although he may be orthodox and traditional in many ways..he seems to have a great deal of compassion for people who are poor, people with AIDS etc. So, we'll see and give him a chance. Apparently he is 76 and has only one lung, his health must hold up too.

I'll be looking to see if he wears Prada, Bruno Magli, Jordan shoes etc, and if he picks some no-brand, that would be a good sign..and eventually he can switch from the papal tiara to a simple aandi thoppi, that would be nice too!

Thank you GC and Max:) GC, many of the origins of black Churches were really by small groups of slaves who organized their "own" cultural gatherings (blending in what they saw) with roots of gospel music..and were not recognized by White Church Denominations for a long time. On the other hand..Indian Christians were intitially- converted with coercion and othe incentives..eventually, as time went along other native traditions were blended in.

For me it was the reverse, Non-Christian friends have always invited me to share their traditions..religious festivals etc and felt no pressure or discomfort doing that. Sure there are others who do put pressure to convert..but to lump everyone together from any faith is misleading, imo.

Ok U..down, down Fr. Jerome D'Souza!

by truthbetold Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:11 pm

I attended a Lutheran missionary school, rss supported school, and jesuit college. All of them have prayers. The one in Lutheran school was in the open and long. On occasion students fell ill or even fainted. Education was good in eachnof those places.
Jesuits do a great job with education and hospitals. I wish rich indian temples learn from those places.
Market place and numbers are driving churchs selection. That is a good thing.
A sensible pope can reduce tension with in catholics and with in societies by pushing abortion, contraception and homosexuality to secondary level.
I am not sure what his real responsibilities are?

by Rishi Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:23 pm

truthbetold wrote:I attended a Lutheran missionary school, rss supported school, and jesuit college. All of them have prayers. The one in Lutheran school was in the open and long. On occasion students fell ill or even fainted. Education was good in eachnof those places.
Jesuits do a great job with education and hospitals. I wish rich indian temples learn from those places.
Market place and numbers are driving churchs selection. That is a good thing.
A sensible pope can reduce tension with in catholics and with in societies by pushing abortion, contraception and homosexuality to secondary level.
I am not sure what his real responsibilities are?

The main difference between Christian/Catholic institutions and the rest in India is simply discipline.

Hindu students who goof off in places like Pachaiyappa college and Gvernment Arts college in Chennai would readily submit to the discipline enforced by the padre and study hard if they are transferred to Catholic college.

by truthbetold Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:36 pm

Rishi,
there are non christian colleges that have good discipline. Psg college in coimbatore is an example.as i said earlier i went to an rss school that has very strict rules. Sai baba schools
Bharatiya vidya bhavan are all examples of good education.
Jesuits are able to replicate their sucess through out india and world.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:54 pm

Maria S wrote:Let me guess..who could have possibly coined the term "Popeaandi"? Hmm, hmm..that took a whole 2 secs:)

Enna U..why this Popeaandi veri!

He seems like a simple "human"..and although he may be orthodox and traditional in many ways..he seems to have a great deal of compassion for people who are poor, people with AIDS etc. So, we'll see and give him a chance. Apparently he is 76 and has only one lung, his health must hold up too.

I'll be looking to see if he wears Prada, Bruno Magli, Jordan shoes etc, and if he picks some no-brand, that would be a good sign..and eventually he can switch from the papal tiara to a simple aandi thoppi, that would be nice too!

Thank you GC and Max:) GC, many of the origins of black Churches were really by small groups of slaves who organized their "own" cultural gatherings (blending in what they saw) with roots of gospel music..and were not recognized by White Church Denominations for a long time. On the other hand..Indian Christians were intitially- converted with coercion and othe incentives..eventually, as time went along other native traditions were blended in.

For me it was the reverse, Non-Christian friends have always invited me to share their traditions..religious festivals etc and felt no pressure or discomfort doing that. Sure there are others who do put pressure to convert..but to lump everyone together from any faith is misleading, imo.

Ok U..down, down Fr. Jerome D'Souza!

I have nothing against the new Pope ji or his intentions and goodwill. I am just talking about the SYSTEM. It just so happens Christianity - catholicism to be precise - is under limelight. There are tons of blogs dissecting the sect right now. That is why I am talking about them. A Pandaaram is a religious person and somehow by wrong usage it has become a negative word. Same with Aandi. It has been hijacked and used in a negative way to imply one who has nothing - a beggar. However, an Aandi is one who has given up everything and wears a Kaavi veshti and lives by praying at the temples eating the prasadam given in the temples.

Our Pope ji wears a white robe and stays in a suite and travels in a pope mobile. Still he is an Aandi in western terminology.

Actually my Fr. D'Souza used to loan my dad money to pay his fees, which he returned in the following months. this went on for 3 years. at the end of the 3 years he asked him the "conversion" question. My dad was a commie and a atheist at that time, and the Good father never asked him that question again. Still he visited the old man often and took me once with him to meet. It was funny that my dad went around his suite as if he was visiting his uncle's place, while I was sitting in a chair all the time.

Another one was his interaction with the great SVT Chari. if you are from madras in the 70s, then you should have known about this interesting personality. heard tons of stories about him from my father - all noble and they don't make doctors like him anymore.

by Maria S Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:44 am

I hear you U. There have been/are plenty of problems and challenges for the Church as an institution-system. But, personal faith/spirituality will continue to thrive..and as a blissful optimist- am hopeful that there are still noble and inspiring individuals as you mention..who can inspire with their thoughts and actions- influence sytems and even make small changes.. and we yearn for them (religious or not).

It was kind of interesting to see who the next Pope is, but media will magnify the hoopla until Tuesday. Personally, am not thrilled about Christian institutions being lavish..wasting money in the name of celebrations.

Have said enough on this topic this morning..am moving on:)

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:08 pm

Rishi wrote:
Btw, were you ever told by the authorities in your high school that it was OK with them if you did not want to recite the Lord's prayer?

it was an assembly of the entire school. there is no way anyone was checking on individual students. and in any case, the montfort mission with which my school was affiliated, cared a lot more about education rather than religious indoctrination. their students were mostly hindu boys. i doubt they had any illusions about boys from hardcore brahminical families. i am grateful that i received a high quality high school education for a very modest tuition. they made it possible for me and tens of thousands of hindu boys like myself. i never felt the pressure to convert. in fact religion was a non-factor.

Rishi wrote:The Hindu students at the Christian school I went to were forced everyday to sing the song "Deva Pithaa Ennai Meypenallo" (Lord is my Shepard). One day, very few students chose to sing. Mr. Kuriakose, the principal dragged about 10 kids, all of them Hindus, made them stand next to him and forced them to sing.

it's possible. i have also attended non-catholic christian institutions in interior TN where the presence of religion was more palpable. but even there i was left alone. my comment was only about the jesuit school that i attended in chennai.

by Hellsangel Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:13 pm

A few people here who attended Catholic schools seem to be scarred for life.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:15 pm

Hellsangel wrote:A few people here who attended Catholic schools seem to be scarred for life.

right and i find it incredulous.

by Idéfix Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:25 pm

I went to a "junior college" run by the Montfort Brothers of St. Gabriel for my last two years before university. Most teachers were Hindus, but the principal and vice-principal were monks. Most of the students were Hindu. It is at this junior college that I really learned to speak English. I remember prayer time, but I never said a word, and that was either unnoticed, or if noticed, went unremarked upon.

The principal visited each class for an hour a week and tried to further our moral education. I liked most of the things he talked about -- like nurturing your talents, being kind and generous to those in need, recognizing your good fortune in being at an "elite" institution, and such like. He used some of Jesus's parables like the Good Samaritan and the prodigal son. He framed his arguments using terms like "god" and "prayer" liberally, but was somewhat gingerly about Christ, the Savior or similar overtly-Christian themes. I used to be busy with other stuff during that hour, as were most of my classmates.

The school had a significant minority of Christian students (perhaps 10-20%). These students used to take part in activities like Christmas carols, etc. There was absolutely no expectation or pressure on the rest of us to participate, but we did have to sit through some of those performances.

Overall, I look back fondly at my time at the junior college. Going there significantly broadened my horizons, and my teachers there were mostly very good and they cared about our learning.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:31 pm

by the way, rishi it is deva pitha enthan meyppan allo (is not the lord my shepherd)?, not ennai meyppan allo. for a couple of years i attended a protestant missionary school in interior TN, that's where i heard this song. i remember listening to it and liking it back then. here is a reasonably good rendition (with poor video quality):

here is the text of the song from another youtube video:
i understand the text, but there are some biblical references which i have no clue about. maybe maria can say more about it.

பல்லவி
தேவ பிதா என்றன் மேய்ப்பன் அல்லோ,
சிறுமை தாழ்ச்சி அடைகிலனே .

அனுபல்லவி
ஆவலதாய் எனைப் பைம்புன் மேல்
அவர் மேயத் தமர் நீர் அருளுகின்றார்.- தேவ

சரணங்கள்
1.ஆத்துமந் தன்னைக் குளிரப்பண்ணி
அடியேன் கால்களை நீதி என்னும்
நேர்த்தியாம் பாதையில் அவர் நிமித்தம்
நிதமும் சுகமாய் நடத்துகின்றார். -தேவ

2.சா நிழல் பள்ளத் திறங்கிடினும்,
சற்றும் தீங்குக் கண்டஞ்சேனே ;
வானபரன் என்னோடிருப்பார் ;
வளை தடியும் கோலுமே தேற்றும் .- தேவ

3.பகைவர்க் கெதிரே ஒரு பந்தி
பாங்காய் எனக்கென் றேற்படுத்திச்
சுக தயிலம் கொண்டென் தலையைச்
சுபமாய் அபிஷேகம் செய்குவார் ,-தேவ

4.ஆயுள் முழுவதும் என் பாத்ரம்
அருளும் நலமுமாய் நிரம்பும் ,
நேயன் வீட்டினில் சிறப்போடே ,
நெடு நாள் குடியாய் நிலைத்திருப்பேன் -தேவ

by Maria S Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:38 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:by the way, rishi it is deva pitha enthan meyppan allo (is not the lord my shepherd)?, not ennai meyppan allo. for a couple of years i attended a protestant missionary school in interior TN, that's where i heard this song.

Thanks a lot for being accurate- Max!

I guess people see/listen to what they want to- and twist it as they want to.

Nice to know about the Christian school experiences from you and Carvaka.

I attended secular and co-ed schools. 90% were Hindus, 5% Muslim and only 5% Christians.

"ஆயுள் முழுவதும் என் பாத்ரம்
அருளும் நலமுமாய் நிரம்பும் ,
நேயன் வீட்டினில் சிறப்போடே ,
நெடு நாள் குடியாய் நிலைத்திருப்பேன்"

The Lord works in mysterious ways indeed..never thought I would see these lines, in this Forum:)

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:50 pm

[quote="Rishi"]

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

The Hindu students at the Christian school I went to were forced everyday to sing the song "Deva Pithaa Ennai Meypenallo" (Lord is my Shepard). One day, very few students chose to sing. Mr. Kuriakose, the principal dragged about 10 kids, all of them Hindus, made them stand next to him and forced them to sing.

One of the purposes of acculturation of Hindu kids in the Christian/Catholic school is to make them 'secular' and thus accept the proselytizing of poor Hindus everywhere else.

Ahhh..rings a bell.... If I remember he was T. J. Kuriakose and I can even visualize his image - but not sure if he was the Principal of St . Joseph high school or College.

Heck...may be he was the Principal of Loyala College. They get transferred often between various catholic colleges.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:55 pm

btw, my father and uncle attended the aforementioned st. joseph's college in trichy. in fact, they even lived in the hostel because of my grandfather's transferrable job and nomadic lifestyle. when they attended, there were still british (irish?) jesuits who managed the place.

by Maria S Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:18 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:btw, my father and uncle attended the aforementioned st. joseph's college in trichy. in fact, they even lived in the hostel because of my grandfather's transferrable job and nomadic lifestyle. when they attended, there were still british (irish?) jesuits who managed the place.

Interesting.

I got to know Dr. Alex Alexander, via Sulekha column discussions when Rajiv Malhotra used to post long time ago. Dr. Alexander used to post under the name "Alex"..and at first, I thought he was in his 20s or 30s! I had no idea he was a such a distinguished older gentleman and was the roommate of Dr. Abdul Kalam (ex-President) at St. Joseph's Trichy, and they had a third roommate who was a Hindu gentleman!

He used to tell me..about the great times they had together..and they had their reunion after almost 50 years (how cool is that!)! May be your family members could have come across them too..and two of my special family members attended St. Joseph's too, it's a small world!

Found a link:

http://www.indiatribune.com/index.php?option=com_content&id=5689:community-eagerly-awaits-dr-kalams-visit-to-chicago&Itemid=457

Excerpt:

Speaking to Dr. Kalam’s impact on the youth of today, Dr. C. Alex Alexander reminisced back to their college days together. Dr. Alexander, a physician, currently residing in Maryland, was one of two roommates Dr. Kalam had at St. Joseph’s College in Tiruchi, India, during the 1950s. Their experience was especially significant as the third roommate was an Iyengar, and the threesome thus replicated the true religious amity and pluralism of secular India, sending a positive message to others, particularly to the younger generation.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:01 pm

Maria S wrote:May be your family members could have come across them too..and two of my special family members attended St. Joseph's too, it's a small world!

that's possible. my father indeed has many christian friends he keeps in touch with actively from those days. those were the days when one went to a college to finish grades 11 & 12. i think they called it PUC or something like that. my father of course went to med school after that. the one story i've heard him narrate from those days is that the jesuit reverend who was the principal of the college refused to give him admission to group 2 (physics, chem, bio, no math) because of his excellent 10th grade math scores. with great disappointment (because he wanted to pursue medicine), he ran away from the college and hostel and returned with my grandfather who had to persuade the reverend to admit him to group 2 instead of group 1.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:04 pm

maria -- is it true that all the canticles (is that the right word for it?) that are sung in tamil were written by protestants? do catholics conduct their mass in tamil at all?

by Maria S Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:28 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:maria -- is it true that all the canticles (is that the right word for it?) that are sung in tamil were written by protestants? do catholics conduct their mass in tamil at all?

Max,

*For the first question, am not an expert and don't know if all the tamil canticles were written by Protestants..if I had to guess, would say- many of them were, but it's very likely that Catholics contributed too. Canticle is rarely used these says..most people simply say hymns (in tamil- keerthanaigal), anthems, songs etc.

*Can answer the second question and say Tamil Catholics do conduct their entire mass (prayers, songs everything) in Tamil in TN and in all countries where there are Tamilian populations/communities, including in the US!

Among our great Protestant traditional "musicologists- keerthanai writers/translators"..Abraham Pandithar is greatly revered..guess who apparently inspired him(!)..did not know that until now:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Pandithar

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:24 pm

how about that (about abraham pandithar)!

by Mosquito Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:50 pm

I am infallible! Make fun of me you will burn in hell!

by Hellsangel Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:57 pm

Pope Francis wrote:I am infallible! Make fun of me you will burn in hell!

MJ, MJ, MJ! You just reactivated your old ID with a new name now?

by Idéfix Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:03 pm

Pope Francis wrote:I am infallible! Make fun of me you will burn in hell!

Hahaha!

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