To Churi

by Rishi Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:18 pm

Churi,

V.S. Naipaul says that the lives of the descendants of Indians who went as indentured laborers to places like Guyana, Trinidad, South Africa, Mauritius and Fiji are much better than what Indians in India face.

Do you agree?

by churi. Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:19 pm

Rishi wrote:Churi,

V.S. Naipaul says that the lives of the descendants of Indians who went as indentured laborers to places like Guyana, Trinidad, South Africa, Mauritius and Fiji are much better than what Indians in India face.

Do you agree?

Of course. My great-grandfather had the option to return to India, but chose to stay. Even my grandparents' generation had a better quality of life than that of Indians in India. I also think that SA Indians have a much better quality of life than most Indians in the US (based on my vast experience in both countries + Facebook data supports my conclusion as well:)).

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:24 pm

churi. wrote:
Rishi wrote:Churi,

V.S. Naipaul says that the lives of the descendants of Indians who went as indentured laborers to places like Guyana, Trinidad, South Africa, Mauritius and Fiji are much better than what Indians in India face.

Do you agree?

Of course. My great-grandfather had the option to return to India, but chose to stay. Even my grandparents' generation had a better quality of life than that of Indians in India. I also think that SA Indians have a much better quality of life than most Indians in the US (based on my vast experience in both countries + Facebook data supports my conclusion as well:)).

define quality of life...

car+house+job+ latrine???

by churi. Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:45 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
churi. wrote:
Rishi wrote:Churi,

V.S. Naipaul says that the lives of the descendants of Indians who went as indentured laborers to places like Guyana, Trinidad, South Africa, Mauritius and Fiji are much better than what Indians in India face.

Do you agree?

Of course. My great-grandfather had the option to return to India, but chose to stay. Even my grandparents' generation had a better quality of life than that of Indians in India. I also think that SA Indians have a much better quality of life than most Indians in the US (based on my vast experience in both countries + Facebook data supports my conclusion as well:)).

define quality of life...

car+house+job+ latrine???

All those aspects. Even when I was in college, guys were driving around in the newest Merc/BMW/Audi. I know of at least a dozen people who ascended to executive level positions in their twenties (engineering degrees). Doctors (mostly Indians) graduate at age 23-24 with medical degrees. Before 30, they live in mansion estates and have multiple luxury vehicles. Those things are not the norm in the US. One of my younger sisters is a lawyer (graduated high school with below average grades, went to a second-rate college) - she just bought a huge Tuscan-style home in an upmarket Johannesburg suburb (equivalent of about $1M). You really don't have to excel in SA to get good jobs and lead a good life, simply because there is not the massive competition for good jobs as there is here.

by confuzzled dude Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:02 pm

churi. wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
churi. wrote:
Rishi wrote:Churi,

V.S. Naipaul says that the lives of the descendants of Indians who went as indentured laborers to places like Guyana, Trinidad, South Africa, Mauritius and Fiji are much better than what Indians in India face.

Do you agree?

Of course. My great-grandfather had the option to return to India, but chose to stay. Even my grandparents' generation had a better quality of life than that of Indians in India. I also think that SA Indians have a much better quality of life than most Indians in the US (based on my vast experience in both countries + Facebook data supports my conclusion as well:)).

define quality of life...

car+house+job+ latrine???

All those aspects. Even when I was in college, guys were driving around in the newest Merc/BMW/Audi. I know of at least a dozen people who ascended to executive level positions in their twenties (engineering degrees). Doctors (mostly Indians) graduate at age 23-24 with medical degrees. Before 30, they live in mansion estates and have multiple luxury vehicles. Those things are not the norm in the US. One of my younger sisters is a lawyer (graduated high school with below average grades, went to a second-rate college) - she just bought a huge Tuscan-style home in an upmarket Johannesburg suburb (equivalent of about $1M). You really don't have to excel in SA to get good jobs and lead a good life, simply because there is not the massive competition for good jobs as there is here.

Hmmm!! Immigrants vs 4th, 5th generation Indo-SAs! What are the odds of first generation folks enjoying similar quality as you described above, would it even be comparable to the US lifestyle. I'm guessing NO or else Indians would be flocking to SA.

by churi. Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:30 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
churi. wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
churi. wrote:
Rishi wrote:Churi,

V.S. Naipaul says that the lives of the descendants of Indians who went as indentured laborers to places like Guyana, Trinidad, South Africa, Mauritius and Fiji are much better than what Indians in India face.

Do you agree?

Of course. My great-grandfather had the option to return to India, but chose to stay. Even my grandparents' generation had a better quality of life than that of Indians in India. I also think that SA Indians have a much better quality of life than most Indians in the US (based on my vast experience in both countries + Facebook data supports my conclusion as well:)).

define quality of life...

car+house+job+ latrine???

All those aspects. Even when I was in college, guys were driving around in the newest Merc/BMW/Audi. I know of at least a dozen people who ascended to executive level positions in their twenties (engineering degrees). Doctors (mostly Indians) graduate at age 23-24 with medical degrees. Before 30, they live in mansion estates and have multiple luxury vehicles. Those things are not the norm in the US. One of my younger sisters is a lawyer (graduated high school with below average grades, went to a second-rate college) - she just bought a huge Tuscan-style home in an upmarket Johannesburg suburb (equivalent of about $1M). You really don't have to excel in SA to get good jobs and lead a good life, simply because there is not the massive competition for good jobs as there is here.

Hmmm!! Immigrants vs 4th, 5th generation Indo-SAs! What are the odds of first generation folks enjoying similar quality as you described above, would it even be comparable to the US lifestyle. I'm guessing NO or else Indians would be flocking to SA.

Indians cannot "flock" to SA because SA has much stricter immigration policies than the US. Many of the good jobs are BEE (black economic empowerment), or similar affirmative action jobs that SA Indians qualify for over White SA'ns. This is how many SA Indians have become exceedingly rich. It is not always because they are especially smart/educated/talented.

Anyway, replies like yours (the overly defensive Indian) are the reason I avoided answering this question for a long time. I was asked if the quality of life for Indian DESCENDANTS (that word assumes 3rd/4th/5th gen) is better, and I answered it based on the state that I know it to be. And FYI immigrants from India in SA on average, have better jobs/homes/cars than the average Indian in the US (and just in case I need to spell it out for you, this is not scientific data, but my opinion through the lens of my own experiences).

by confuzzled dude Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:16 pm

churi. wrote:

Indians cannot "flock" to SA because SA has much stricter immigration policies than the US. Many of the good jobs are BEE (black economic empowerment), or similar affirmative action jobs that SA Indians qualify for over White SA'ns. This is how many SA Indians have become exceedingly rich. It is not always because they are especially smart/educated/talented.

Anyway, replies like yours (the overly defensive Indian) are the reason I avoided answering this question for a long time. I was asked if the quality of life for Indian DESCENDANTS (that word assumes 3rd/4th/5th gen) is better, and I answered it based on the state that I know it to be. And FYI immigrants from India in SA on average, have better jobs/homes/cars than the average Indian in the US (and just in case I need to spell it out for you, this is not scientific data, but my opinion through the lens of my own experiences).

Looks like "defensive" is the word of the day. Damn! I can't seem to win whether I support or oppose the US policies, not my day

The original question from Rishi, as I understand was about the quality of life of Indians living in India vs the ones living in former British colonies (minus US of course). You brought up the US angle not me and I'm being defensive for putting forward my point of view Rolling Eyes

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:46 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
The original question from Rishi, as I understand was about the quality of life of Indians living in India vs the ones living in former British colonies (minus US of course). You brought up the US angle not me and I'm being defensive for putting forward my point of view

You are just trying to be politically correct in not opposing a female.... Razz

All you "L" people.

by Hellsangel Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:16 pm

confuzzled dude wrote: Damn! I can't seem to win whether I support or oppose the US policies, not my day

Tomorrow doesn't look so good either.

by pravalika nanda Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:48 pm

churi. wrote:
Rishi wrote:Churi,

V.S. Naipaul says that the lives of the descendants of Indians who went as indentured laborers to places like Guyana, Trinidad, South Africa, Mauritius and Fiji are much better than what Indians in India face.

Do you agree?

Of course. My great-grandfather had the option to return to India, but chose to stay. Even my grandparents' generation had a better quality of life than that of Indians in India. I also think that SA Indians have a much better quality of life than most Indians in the US (based on my vast experience in both countries + Facebook data supports my conclusion as well:)).

** I don't know about that. Do they have a Nordstrom's, JCrew, Brooks Brothers, Macy's there? Libraries, Museums? Life in SA is better now in the sense that they have cheap manual labor, nannies etc like in india. but o/w what is there to do? By the way, I happened upon some pics of delhi's elite and they had men and women posing at boutiques and I saw two dresses there (on the rack) that I purchased 1 or 2 yrs ago. So even Delhi's maha-elite is stuck with wearing what middle-class indian women living off stipends in America wear. So life is better in America.

by Propagandhi711 Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:56 pm

Dugia, so you seen some photos with ppl wearing same clothes as you and concluded your life's much better? That sounds very scientific.

by pravalika nanda Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:14 am

Propagandhi711 wrote:Dugia, so you seen some photos with ppl wearing same clothes as you and concluded your life's much better? That sounds very scientific.

sweetheart, what's the "a" in "dugia" for?

yes, if delhi's elite are wearing western clothes from two seasons ago, it means they're way behind in terms of fashion. and also, I live in America, I can go on a bus w/o worrying about rape, I can wear what I want, I can eat what I want, I have access to better education, gyms, physical trainers, public transport, museums, libraries, coffee-shops, food that is less-likely to have been laced with pollutants and drugs, better drugs etc, the list is endless. and if I save up I can buy an audi too. my life is better. as I grow older, I will have access to medical care with physicians trained to give the proper screening tests and procedures to catch breast ca or colon ca or if i'm a male smoker i'm sure my physician will say, "pravu, we gotta to do an ultrasound of your tummy to screen you for aneuryms." or just think, now that i'm getting older, even for a middle-class working woman for me, cryo for my eggs and IVF when I want are real options for me. the clock is ticking but the options are there. The roads are safer here too.

anyhow, before my uncle moved to india to teach people how to protect themselves against hiv/aids he used to do all this in his private practice. such a cool and handsome guy. he tells me that you just can't compare America to India.

You have anything positive to say about India, Propa?

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:39 am

pravalika nanda wrote:also, I live in America, I can go on a bus w/o worrying about rape,

Go on a bus ??? on ??? Churi is saying that she can BUY bus and drive it herself. Now that is what I call rich and high standard of living.

Unfortunately only thing that is common to India and SA is carjacking, car raping and gang raping. I read that almost 75% of SA women have been raped. I bet Indian women would certainly have faced the same problem.

by goodcitizn Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:26 am

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
I read that almost 75% of SA women have been raped. I bet Indian women would certainly have faced the same problem.

Where do you get such stats? Are you on some medication recently?

by churi. Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:46 am

pravalika nanda wrote:
churi. wrote:
Rishi wrote:Churi,

V.S. Naipaul says that the lives of the descendants of Indians who went as indentured laborers to places like Guyana, Trinidad, South Africa, Mauritius and Fiji are much better than what Indians in India face.

Do you agree?

Of course. My great-grandfather had the option to return to India, but chose to stay. Even my grandparents' generation had a better quality of life than that of Indians in India. I also think that SA Indians have a much better quality of life than most Indians in the US (based on my vast experience in both countries + Facebook data supports my conclusion as well:)).

** I don't know about that. Do they have a Nordstrom's, JCrew, Brooks Brothers, Macy's there? Libraries, Museums? Life in SA is better now in the sense that they have cheap manual labor, nannies etc like in india. but o/w what is there to do? By the way, I happened upon some pics of delhi's elite and they had men and women posing at boutiques and I saw two dresses there (on the rack) that I purchased 1 or 2 yrs ago. So even Delhi's maha-elite is stuck with wearing what middle-class indian women living off stipends in America wear. So life is better in America.

There is no cheap manual labor in SA. Not anymore. It's not like in India where all middle-class households have nannies and "servants". When I was still a kid (during apartheid era SA) - there was ample labor to exploit. Domestic help was cheap. Nowadays, there are stringent regulations in place, so you have to pay them minimum wage, give them paid leave, paid sick time off + meals and bonuses during holidays are expected. The upper middle-class SA Indians will still have domestic help, but they pay them well.

Malls: you picked precisely the thing that is far superior in SA compared to the US:) I remember when I first came here how underwhelmed I was. I am sure even the malls in India are better. That's because mall culture came much later to those countries, so they were not built as beige, squat masses of concrete like in the US.

I don't know how things are in SA now, but I am sure free wifi is not as ubiquitous there as in the US. Yes, the library system is better here in the sense that you can place holds and they have books ready and waiting for you when you visit. Electronics, clothes, groceries, homes, gasoline, internet are all more expensive in SA as well.

by churi. Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:49 am

goodcitizn wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
I read that almost 75% of SA women have been raped. I bet Indian women would certainly have faced the same problem.
Where do you get such stats? Are you on some medication recently?

75% is an exaggeration, but SA is still known as the "rape capital of the world".

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:51 am

goodcitizn wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
I read that almost 75% of SA women have been raped. I bet Indian women would certainly have faced the same problem.
Where do you get such stats? Are you on some medication recently?

From Wiki:

Rape
Main article: Sexual violence in South Africa

South Africa no longer has the highest rapes per capita, but rape and sexual delinqency is still a problem.[15] The incidence of rape has led to the country being referred to as the "rape capital of the world".[16] One in three of the 4,000 women questioned by the Community of Information, Empowerment and Transparency said they had been raped in the past year.[17] More than 25 per cent of South African men questioned in a survey published by the Medical Research Council (MRC) in June 2009 admitted to rape; of those, nearly half said they had raped more than one person.[18][19] Three out of four of those who had admitted rape indicated that they had attacked for the first time during their teens.[18] South Africa has amongst the highest incidences of child and baby rape in the world. If the rapist is convicted, his prison time would be around 2 years.[20] [21]

************

Now look at how many will NOT be informing about being raped. Hence the Uppilian statistics of almost 75%. By Ayatollah's concept "almost" could be 30, 40, 50, 65, 74.999

by goodcitizn Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:52 am

churi. wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
I read that almost 75% of SA women have been raped. I bet Indian women would certainly have faced the same problem.
Where do you get such stats? Are you on some medication recently?

75% is an exaggeration, but SA is still known as the "rape capital of the world".

If the quality of life in SA is superior to that of the U.S. and India as you claim, what is the reason for this?

by churi. Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:00 am

goodcitizn wrote:
churi. wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
I read that almost 75% of SA women have been raped. I bet Indian women would certainly have faced the same problem.
Where do you get such stats? Are you on some medication recently?

75% is an exaggeration, but SA is still known as the "rape capital of the world".
If the quality of life in SA is superior to that of the U.S. and India as you claim, what is the reason for this?

It is not for most S.Africans, GC.
I specifically said that SA Indians have a better quality of life than Indians in India and the US.

by goodcitizn Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:39 am

churi. wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:
churi. wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
Where do you get such stats? Are you on some medication recently?

75% is an exaggeration, but SA is still known as the "rape capital of the world".
If the quality of life in SA is superior to that of the U.S. and India as you claim, what is the reason for this?

It is not for most S.Africans, GC.
I specifically said that SA Indians have a better quality of life than Indians in India and the US.

I spent two weeks in Johannesburg and Durban back in 2009 on hospital projects consultancy. The business people there were quite congenial and warm which was refreshing compared to the American approach of getting down to business right away with power point presentations and contracts. The government hospitals were not as great there and required modernization but the private hospitals I visited were world class. Although the Indian population is quite big I didn't get a chance to interact with many Indians while I was there. The mall in Durban was nice. I remember buying some footwear and assorted items for gifts. I loved the accent!

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