how ranganthar was hidden from ulugh khan - thiruvarangan ulA

b_A wrote:I don't know about the rest of the post, but this is false.

"while Tirupati Balaji had his prayers rendered in Telugu."  

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:http://sweetkaramcoffee.blogspot.com/2005/05/journey-into-history-thiruvarangan-ula.html

this is a historically important book worthy of translation into english. i remembered it when someone mentioned it to me over a phone conversation.

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:http://sweetkaramcoffee.blogspot.com/2005/05/journey-into-history-thiruvarangan-ula.html

this is a historically important book worthy of translation into english. i remembered it when someone mentioned it to me over a phone conversation.

This is a mischievous book, considering it is historical fiction--designed to spread hatred between communities.

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:http://sweetkaramcoffee.blogspot.com/2005/05/journey-into-history-thiruvarangan-ula.html

this is a historically important book worthy of translation into english. i remembered it when someone mentioned it to me over a phone conversation.

This is a mischievous book, considering it is historical fiction--designed to spread hatred between communities.

Kinnera wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:http://sweetkaramcoffee.blogspot.com/2005/05/journey-into-history-thiruvarangan-ula.html

this is a historically important book worthy of translation into english. i remembered it when someone mentioned it to me over a phone conversation.

This is a mischievous book, considering it is historical fiction--designed to spread hatred between communities.

There is a lot of truth to the muslim invaders invading and plundering hindu temples, stealing their treasures, taking away their deities, etc. One need not suppress the facts in the name of not spreading hatred between communities (which is being done till now). History shouldn't be distorted or suppressed.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:http://sweetkaramcoffee.blogspot.com/2005/05/journey-into-history-thiruvarangan-ula.html

this is a historically important book worthy of translation into english. i remembered it when someone mentioned it to me over a phone conversation.

This is a mischievous book, considering it is historical fiction--designed to spread hatred between communities.

have you read it or are you as usual passing gas through your keyboard? i can't imagine any sense in which it can be characterized as spreading hatred. it is true that the sri rangam deity was hidden and transported from place to place to prevent destruction by invaders. venugopalan wrote about it. which part of it do you not agree with?

Rashmun wrote:

Kinnera wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:http://sweetkaramcoffee.blogspot.com/2005/05/journey-into-history-thiruvarangan-ula.html

this is a historically important book worthy of translation into english. i remembered it when someone mentioned it to me over a phone conversation.

This is a mischievous book, considering it is historical fiction--designed to spread hatred between communities.

There is a lot of truth to the muslim invaders invading and plundering hindu temples, stealing their treasures, taking away their deities, etc. One need not suppress the facts in the name of not spreading hatred between communities (which is being done till now). History shouldn't be distorted or suppressed.

But this is not factual history; it is historical fiction.

Rashmun wrote:

But this is not factual history; it is historical fiction.

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

But this is not factual history; it is historical fiction.

Did muslims destroy temples and build mosques over it or not ?

FACT or FICTION ?

Dont give any diversionary or circumventing answers.  JUST  one word answer.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Kinnera wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:http://sweetkaramcoffee.blogspot.com/2005/05/journey-into-history-thiruvarangan-ula.html

this is a historically important book worthy of translation into english. i remembered it when someone mentioned it to me over a phone conversation.

This is a mischievous book, considering it is historical fiction--designed to spread hatred between communities.

There is a lot of truth to the muslim invaders invading and plundering hindu temples, stealing their treasures, taking away their deities, etc. One need not suppress the facts in the name of not spreading hatred between communities (which is being done till now). History shouldn't be distorted or suppressed.

But this is not factual history; it is historical fiction.

he wrote it in the style developed by kalki krishnamurthy who wrote ponniyin selvan which is historical fiction based on raja raja cholan's life. he rigorously adhered to all the known facts and stated them as such and filled in missing unknown parts of the story with fiction. and he wrote a meticulous afterword in which he separates fact from fiction. same with this book.

Rashmun wrote:

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

But this is not factual history; it is historical fiction.

Did muslims destroy temples and build mosques over it or not ?

FACT or FICTION ?

Dont give any diversionary or circumventing answers.  JUST  one word answer.

The early Muslim invaders did destroy and loot temples. The later Muslim kings like the Mughals gave funding for building new temples and gave financial support for the maintainance of many existing temples.

Thank you.

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Kinnera wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

This is a mischievous book, considering it is historical fiction--designed to spread hatred between communities.

There is a lot of truth to the muslim invaders invading and plundering hindu temples, stealing their treasures, taking away their deities, etc. One need not suppress the facts in the name of not spreading hatred between communities (which is being done till now). History shouldn't be distorted or suppressed.

But this is not factual history; it is historical fiction.

he wrote it in the style developed by kalki krishnamurthy who wrote ponniyin selvan which is historical fiction based on raja raja cholan's life. he rigorously adhered to all the known facts and stated them as such and filled in missing unknown parts of the story with fiction. and he wrote a meticulous afterword in which he separates fact from fiction. same with this book.

Except that the historical facts are often disputed to this day when it comes to sensitive themes like temple destruction by Muslims.

http://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl1725/17250620.htm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Kinnera wrote:
There is a lot of truth to the muslim invaders invading and plundering hindu temples, stealing their treasures, taking away their deities, etc. One need not suppress the facts in the name of not spreading hatred between communities (which is being done till now). History shouldn't be distorted or suppressed.

But this is not factual history; it is historical fiction.

he wrote it in the style developed by kalki krishnamurthy who wrote ponniyin selvan which is historical fiction based on raja raja cholan's life. he rigorously adhered to all the known facts and stated them as such and filled in missing unknown parts of the story with fiction. and he wrote a meticulous afterword in which he separates fact from fiction. same with this book.

Except that the historical facts are often disputed to this day when it comes to sensitive themes like temple destruction by Muslims.

http://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl1725/17250620.htm

now you are moving the goal post. you made a very specific charge and now have moved on to generalities. i don't see how you can make a statement like what you made in your original post without having ever read the book. no scratch reading it, you hadn't even heard of it before i mentioned it here. do you realize why i think you sound asinine when you make such stupid statements?

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Tiruchirapalli/koil-ozhugu-authentic-documentation-of-history/article2774682.ece

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

But this is not factual history; it is historical fiction.

he wrote it in the style developed by kalki krishnamurthy who wrote ponniyin selvan which is historical fiction based on raja raja cholan's life. he rigorously adhered to all the known facts and stated them as such and filled in missing unknown parts of the story with fiction. and he wrote a meticulous afterword in which he separates fact from fiction. same with this book.

Except that the historical facts are often disputed to this day when it comes to sensitive themes like temple destruction by Muslims.

http://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl1725/17250620.htm

now you are moving the goal post. you made a very specific charge and now have moved on to generalities. i don't see how you can make a statement like what you made in your original post without having ever read the book. no scratch reading it, you hadn't even heard of it before i mentioned it here. do you realize why i think you sound asinine when you make such stupid statements?

I would react in the same manner--revulsion--if someone were to write historical fiction about the Hindu King Sasanka of Bengal cutting down the sacred tree under which the Budha attained enlightenment and persecuting Budhists. Ditto for the Hindu king Harsha of Kashmir who destroyed several Budhist monasteries.

Since the historical facts are often disputed when it comes to themes like temple destruction a writer cannot just write a book on Srirangam and then point out which parts of his book are history and which is fiction. In this specific case I am fairly confident that it would be well nigh impossible to know for certain where all the temple idol was taken around all over India and for how long even if we concede that the idol was temporarily hidden.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

he wrote it in the style developed by kalki krishnamurthy who wrote ponniyin selvan which is historical fiction based on raja raja cholan's life. he rigorously adhered to all the known facts and stated them as such and filled in missing unknown parts of the story with fiction. and he wrote a meticulous afterword in which he separates fact from fiction. same with this book.

Except that the historical facts are often disputed to this day when it comes to sensitive themes like temple destruction by Muslims.

http://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl1725/17250620.htm

now you are moving the goal post. you made a very specific charge and now have moved on to generalities. i don't see how you can make a statement like what you made in your original post without having ever read the book. no scratch reading it, you hadn't even heard of it before i mentioned it here. do you realize why i think you sound asinine when you make such stupid statements?

I would react in the same manner--revulsion--if someone were to write historical fiction about the Hindu King Sasanka of Bengal cutting down the sacred tree under which the Budha attained enlightenment and persecuting Budhists. Ditto for the Hindu king Harsha of Kashmir who destroyed several Budhist monasteries.

Since the historical facts are often disputed when it comes to themes like temple destruction a writer cannot just write a book on Srirangam and then point out which parts of his book are history and which is fiction. In this specific case I am fairly confident that it would be well nigh impossible to know for certain where all the temple idol was taken around all over India and for how long even if we concede that the idol was temporarily hidden.

ok this is another of your classic idiocies which will go onto twenty five pages minimum. for me the fact that you hadn't even heard of the book before issuing a criticism is sufficient to ignore anything you may have to say about this matter.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i am reminded of the mullahs in pakistan and elsewhere denouncing the satanic verses without having read a single word of it.

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i am reminded of the mullahs in pakistan and elsewhere denouncing the satanic verses without having read a single word of it.

Mullahs were calling for Rushdie's head. I am not doing that. I am simply denouncing the glorification of anything that seeks to divide two communities.

Rishi wrote:Rashmun,

Why quarrel with  history?

Should we avoid talking what really happened in the past just because some Muslims will start a riot?

It is a fact Malik Kafur pillaged and looted parts of South India.

Rashmun wrote:

Rishi wrote:Rashmun,

Why quarrel with  history?

Should we avoid talking what really happened in the past just because some Muslims will start a riot?

It is a fact Malik Kafur pillaged and looted parts of South India.

I am not objecting to factual history of what happened in these kind of issues. I am objecting to "historical fiction" on these kind of issues since these have the potential to spread hatred between communities in a mischievous manner because of the introduction of falsehoods interspersed with historical facts. At any rate I am voicing my democratic right in this matter. Those who like reading about material which spreads hatred between communities are welcome to do so.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Rishi wrote:Rashmun,

Why quarrel with  history?

Should we avoid talking what really happened in the past just because some Muslims will start a riot?

It is a fact Malik Kafur pillaged and looted parts of South India.

I am not objecting to factual history of what happened in these kind of issues. I am objecting to "historical fiction" on these kind of issues since these have the potential to spread hatred between communities in a mischievous manner because of the introduction of falsehoods interspersed with historical facts. At any rate I am voicing my democratic right in this matter. Those who like reading about material which spreads hatred between communities are welcome to do so.

there is no spreading hatred in the book whatsoever. spreading hatred would be demonizing entire communities based on the actions of a few people. the focus of the book is how the idol was saved from destruction by an invading king by vaishnavite bhaktas. there is nothing in it about islam or muslims.  the book is about love, about the love of human beings for a divine power they believe in and the actions they took under difficult circumstances to preserve something that was dear to them. only a diseased mind would look upon a work like that as spreading hatred!

Rashmun wrote:Max, Rishi, Saamiyaar, Kinnera et al, how would you react if a Sinhalese writer wrote "historical fiction" about Rajaraja Chola and Rajendra Chola destroying Budhist stupas and Budhist viharas in Sri Lanka, and indulging in mass murder, looting and plunder and generally portrayed as cruel and bloodthirsty tyrants with no respect for the religious beliefs others with the caveat that the book is not a history book but "historical fiction" i.e. it contains falsehoods interspersed with historical facts.

Rashmun wrote:Max, Rishi, Saamiyaar, Kinnera et al, how would you react if a Sinhalese writer wrote "historical fiction" about Rajaraja Chola and Rajendra Chola destroying Budhist stupas and Budhist viharas in Sri Lanka, and indulging in mass murder, looting and plunder and generally portrayed as cruel and bloodthirsty tyrants with no respect for the religious beliefs of others with the caveat that the book is not a history book but "historical fiction" i.e. it contains falsehoods interspersed with historical facts.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:from what i remember from my long ago reading of the book, the invasion is just a historical background as is ulugh khan. nearly all of the book deals with the actual movement of the idol from place to place and the characters charged with protecting the moorthy.

Kinnera wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:from what i remember from my long ago reading of the book, the invasion is just a historical background as is ulugh khan. nearly all of the book deals with the actual movement of the idol from place to place and the characters charged with protecting the moorthy.

Rasmun's peeved is that the muslim invaders are shown in a bad light, even if briefly, because even that is going to offend the muslims and create tensions between the two communities. It's not right on the part of hindus to talk about such things.

Rashmun wrote:What follows is from the blog whose link Max gave earlier in the thread. Notice the absurdity and completely evident falsehood that is mentioned in the blog with respect to the fact that Muslim kings took the idol to Delhi and kept him for an year before he was brought back to South India and taken around different cities in secrecy before being placed again in the temple from where he had been taken originally. Does it make any sense for muslim invaders to take away the idol to Delhi and store him for an entire year? This interspersing of fiction and falsehood with historical truth is what I object to since it breeds fanaticism and inflames emotions on the basis of cheap lies and falsehoods.

----

In the fourteenth century, the Sultans from the North turned their eyes to the South, eyeing particularly the Hindu temples to plunder their abundant wealth. The Tamil kings were running puppet & weak regimes and Hoysala & Pandya kingdoms were just symbolic and mutely submitted to the Khiljis & Tughlaks. Lord Ranganatha from Srirangam was forcefully taken away to Delhi and kept for about a year, when some of the devadasis helped a rich devotee regain the idol and bring it back to Srirangam. About 40 years later, Mohammed-Bin-Tughlak and his strong army surrounded the gates of Srirangam to take the Idol away.... and that was when the Lord started his grand tour.

For the next 50 years, the Lord was kept hidden from the Moslem kings. The North Indian Moslem kings and later the Bahmini Sultans continued their desparate search for the Idol. For the people of South, Lord Ranaganatha was more than Idol of a God - he was the symbol of their hope, their freedom. And those souls who had entrusted themselves with the sacred job of saving their God, it was a holy suicidal task.

Lord Ranganatha travelled from Srirangam through the following route - Azhagar Koil, Madurai, Ettayapuram, Azhvar Thirunagari, Nagercoil, Trivandrum, Kollam, Kozhikode, Sathyamangalam - where he was lost for 20 years.. and after recovery, he travelled to Tirupati where he was retained for 10 years and finally back to Srirangam. The first kings of the Vijayanagara Empire defeated the Bahmini Sultans and brought Lord Ranganatha back to Srirangam from Tirupati and reinstated the Lord with grand celebrations.

Rashmun wrote:What follows is from the blog whose link Max gave earlier in the thread. Notice the absurdity and completely evident falsehood that is mentioned in the blog with respect to the fact that Muslim kings took the idol to Delhi and kept him for an year before he was brought back to South India and taken around different cities in secrecy before being placed again in the temple from where he had been taken originally. Does it make any sense for muslim invaders to take away the idol to Delhi and store him for an entire year? This interspersing of fiction and falsehood with historical truth is what I object to since it breeds fanaticism and inflames emotions on the basis of cheap lies and falsehoods.

----

In the fourteenth century, the Sultans from the North turned their eyes to the South, eyeing particularly the Hindu temples to plunder their abundant wealth. The Tamil kings were running puppet & weak regimes and Hoysala & Pandya kingdoms were just symbolic and mutely submitted to the Khiljis & Tughlaks. Lord Ranganatha from Srirangam was forcefully taken away to Delhi and kept for about a year, when some of the devadasis helped a rich devotee regain the idol and bring it back to Srirangam. About 40 years later, Mohammed-Bin-Tughlak and his strong army surrounded the gates of Srirangam to take the Idol away.... and that was when the Lord started his grand tour.

For the next 50 years, the Lord was kept hidden from the Moslem kings. The North Indian Moslem kings and later the Bahmini Sultans continued their desparate search for the Idol. For the people of South, Lord Ranaganatha was more than Idol of a God - he was the symbol of their hope, their freedom. And those souls who had entrusted themselves with the sacred job of saving their God, it was a holy suicidal task.

Lord Ranganatha travelled from Srirangam through the following route - Azhagar Koil, Madurai, Ettayapuram, Azhvar Thirunagari, Nagercoil, Trivandrum, Kollam, Kozhikode, Sathyamangalam - where he was lost for 20 years.. and after recovery, he travelled to Tirupati where he was retained for 10 years and finally back to Srirangam. The first kings of the Vijayanagara Empire defeated the Bahmini Sultans and brought Lord Ranganatha back to Srirangam from Tirupati and reinstated the Lord with grand celebrations.

Kinnera wrote:

Rashmun wrote:What follows is from the blog whose link Max gave earlier in the thread. Notice the absurdity and completely evident falsehood that is mentioned in the blog with respect to the fact that Muslim kings took the idol to Delhi and kept him for an year before he was brought back to South India and taken around different cities in secrecy before being placed again in the temple from where he had been taken originally. Does it make any sense for muslim invaders to take away the idol to Delhi and store him for an entire year? This interspersing of fiction and falsehood with historical truth is what I object to since it breeds fanaticism and inflames emotions on the basis of cheap lies and falsehoods.

----

In the fourteenth century, the Sultans from the North turned their eyes to the South, eyeing particularly the Hindu temples to plunder their abundant wealth. The Tamil kings were running puppet & weak regimes and Hoysala & Pandya kingdoms were just symbolic and mutely submitted to the Khiljis & Tughlaks. Lord Ranganatha from Srirangam was forcefully taken away to Delhi and kept for about a year, when some of the devadasis helped a rich devotee regain the idol and bring it back to Srirangam. About 40 years later, Mohammed-Bin-Tughlak and his strong army surrounded the gates of Srirangam to take the Idol away.... and that was when the Lord started his grand tour.

For the next 50 years, the Lord was kept hidden from the Moslem kings. The North Indian Moslem kings and later the Bahmini Sultans continued their desparate search for the Idol. For the people of South, Lord Ranaganatha was more than Idol of a God - he was the symbol of their hope, their freedom. And those souls who had entrusted themselves with the sacred job of saving their God, it was a holy suicidal task.

Lord Ranganatha travelled from Srirangam through the following route - Azhagar Koil, Madurai, Ettayapuram, Azhvar Thirunagari, Nagercoil, Trivandrum, Kollam, Kozhikode, Sathyamangalam - where he was lost for 20 years.. and after recovery, he travelled to Tirupati where he was retained for 10 years and finally back to Srirangam. The first kings of the Vijayanagara Empire defeated the Bahmini Sultans and brought Lord Ranganatha back to Srirangam from Tirupati and reinstated the Lord with grand celebrations.

There is historical evidence about the Ranganatha swamy's and many other idols being stolen/plundered by the muslim invaders. We still get to see the spot where Ranganatha swamy's idol was place at the tirupati temple.

Pls visit Hampi on your next visit to India.

Kinnera wrote:

Rashmun wrote:What follows is from the blog whose link Max gave earlier in the thread. Notice the absurdity and completely evident falsehood that is mentioned in the blog with respect to the fact that Muslim kings took the idol to Delhi and kept him for an year before he was brought back to South India and taken around different cities in secrecy before being placed again in the temple from where he had been taken originally. Does it make any sense for muslim invaders to take away the idol to Delhi and store him for an entire year? This interspersing of fiction and falsehood with historical truth is what I object to since it breeds fanaticism and inflames emotions on the basis of cheap lies and falsehoods.

----

In the fourteenth century, the Sultans from the North turned their eyes to the South, eyeing particularly the Hindu temples to plunder their abundant wealth. The Tamil kings were running puppet & weak regimes and Hoysala & Pandya kingdoms were just symbolic and mutely submitted to the Khiljis & Tughlaks. Lord Ranganatha from Srirangam was forcefully taken away to Delhi and kept for about a year, when some of the devadasis helped a rich devotee regain the idol and bring it back to Srirangam. About 40 years later, Mohammed-Bin-Tughlak and his strong army surrounded the gates of Srirangam to take the Idol away.... and that was when the Lord started his grand tour.

For the next 50 years, the Lord was kept hidden from the Moslem kings. The North Indian Moslem kings and later the Bahmini Sultans continued their desparate search for the Idol. For the people of South, Lord Ranaganatha was more than Idol of a God - he was the symbol of their hope, their freedom. And those souls who had entrusted themselves with the sacred job of saving their God, it was a holy suicidal task.

Lord Ranganatha travelled from Srirangam through the following route - Azhagar Koil, Madurai, Ettayapuram, Azhvar Thirunagari, Nagercoil, Trivandrum, Kollam, Kozhikode, Sathyamangalam - where he was lost for 20 years.. and after recovery, he travelled to Tirupati where he was retained for 10 years and finally back to Srirangam. The first kings of the Vijayanagara Empire defeated the Bahmini Sultans and brought Lord Ranganatha back to Srirangam from Tirupati and reinstated the Lord with grand celebrations.

There is historical evidence about the Ranganatha swamy's and many other idols being stolen/plundered by the muslim invaders. We still get to see the spot where Ranganatha swamy's idol was place at the tirupati temple.

Pls visit Hampi on your next visit to India.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:about this delhi business, i don't know what the truth is, but the wiki page for the temple has it listed as historical fact and gives a couple of references (20 & 21):


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Ranganathaswamy_Temple,_Srirangam

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:about this delhi business, i don't know what the truth is, but the wiki page for the temple has it listed as historical fact and gives a couple of references (20 & 21):


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Ranganathaswamy_Temple,_Srirangam

This reads like a Conan the Barbarian story rather than a sober historical account. For all we know the sources are also "historical fiction" or else they are openly or covertly accepting and substituting mythology for history.
----

During the period of invasion by Malik Kafur and his forces in 1310–1311, the idol of the deity was stolen and taken to Delhi. In a daring exploit, devotees of Srirangam ventured to Delhi and enthralled the emperor with their histrionics. Moved by their talent, the emperor was pleased to gift them the presiding deity of Srirangam, which was requested by the performers. Things took a drastic turn immediately. Surathani, his daughter, had fallen in love with the deity and followed him to Srirangam. She prostrated herself to the God in front of the sanctum sanctorum and is believed to have attained the heavenly abode immediately. Even today, a painting of "Surathani" (known as Thulukha Nachiyar in Tamil) can be seen in her shrine near the Arjuna Mandap adjacent to the sanctum sanctorum for whom, chappathis (wheat bread) are made daily.[20][21] The kalyana utsavam or wedding of Lord ranganathar with Surathani is performed with great pomp every year.[22]
Having assumed that the magical power of the deity had killed his daughter, there was a more severe second invasion to Srirangam in 1323 AD. The presiding deity was taken away before the Malik Kafur's troops reached Srirangam by a group led by the vaishnavite Acharaya (Guru), Pillai Lokacharyar, who died en route to Tirunelveli in Tamil Nadu. The Goddess Renganayaki was taken in another separate procession. Swami Vedanta Desika, instrumental in planning the operations during the siege of the temple, closed the sanctum sanctorum of the temple with bricks, after the processions of the presiding deities had left, thereby protected the temple for generations to come. 13,000 Sri Vaishnavas, the people of Srirangam,[23] laid down their lives in the fierce battle to ensure that the institution was protected. In the end, Devadasis, the danseuse of Srirangam, seduced the army chief, to save the temple.