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Acchhey Din (Good Days): Narendra Modi vs Manmohan Singh

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Acchhey Din (Good Days): Narendra Modi vs Manmohan Singh Empty Acchhey Din (Good Days): Narendra Modi vs Manmohan Singh

Post by Guest Sat Jan 03, 2015 10:49 am

Acchhey Din (Good Days): Narendra Modi vs Manmohan Singh B6W6yZiCQAAokAa

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Post by Seva Lamberdar Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:10 pm

Did Modi take away the Govt. subsidies (handouts) on petrol thus saving the cash-starved Govt. / country huge amounts of money which can be better spent on other more important public projects?
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Post by Guest Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:13 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:Did Modi take away the Govt. subsidies (handouts) on petrol thus saving the cash-starved Govt. / country huge amounts of money which can be better spent on other more important public projects?

Increasing the price of petrol automatically increases the price of all consumer products. Since the cost of transportation is increasing.

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Post by Seva Lamberdar Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:29 pm

Rashmun wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:Did Modi take away the Govt. subsidies (handouts) on petrol thus saving the cash-starved Govt. / country huge amounts of money which can be better spent on other more important public projects?

Increasing the price of petrol automatically increases the price of all consumer products. Since the cost of transportation is increasing.
So, do you believe in Govt. subsidies to keep the prices superficially low for essential goods? Do you know what happens to the economies of countries where such practices are followed? There is a complete economic chaos / melt-down in just a few decades in such places, especially when the Govt. runs out of cash (e.g. borrowed and begged from outside) to fund subsidies at home.
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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:38 pm

the US govt has been subsidizing the price of gasoline for a very long time.
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Post by Seva Lamberdar Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:54 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:the US govt has been subsidizing the price of gasoline for a very long time.
Subsidies in gasoline by the U.S. Govt. to what extent and in what form? 
Also consider the trade deficits and money borrowed recently by the U.S. Govt..... does that justify the U.S. Govt's subsidizing the gasoline in the country?
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Post by truthbetold Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:05 pm

Sevaji

You are on right track. 

When India sold Petrol at Rs. 50 in 2007 with crude &147, Man mohan laid the foundation for the economic recession of 2012.  I would not put all the blame on Man Mohan. It is a legacy of India's subsidy raj for votes.  Manmohan tried to get out of it in later years and tried to reduce subsidies. His efforts were not complete due to resistance from congress.  

It is idiotic to even argue that India can afford the humongous subsidy for petrol. Man Mohan himself initiated the process of scaling back petro subsidies.

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Post by Hellsangel Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:56 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:the US govt has been subsidizing the price of gasoline for a very long time.
That's a loaded statement.
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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Jan 04, 2015 6:30 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:the US govt has been subsidizing the price of gasoline for a very long time.
Subsidies in gasoline by the U.S. Govt. to what extent and in what form? 
Also consider the trade deficits and money borrowed recently by the U.S. Govt..... does that justify the U.S. Govt's subsidizing the gasoline in the country?

i went to the gasbuddy website. on average gas prices in canada are about 100 cents/liter.  after doing the currency conversion, that's about US $4.453.21/gal.  gas in the US right now is $2.50/gal.  why do you think this is given that canada is a more oil rich nation?

http://www.npr.org/2013/03/28/175550949/imf-gas-prices-dont-reflect-true-costs

i once drove to quebec city for a conference through vermont and made the mistake of filling up after crossing the border. big mistake.
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Post by confuzzled dude Sun Jan 04, 2015 6:37 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:the US govt has been subsidizing the price of gasoline for a very long time.
Subsidies in gasoline by the U.S. Govt. to what extent and in what form? 
Also consider the trade deficits and money borrowed recently by the U.S. Govt..... does that justify the U.S. Govt's subsidizing the gasoline in the country?

i went to the gasbuddy website. on average gas prices in canada are about 100 cents/liter.  after doing the currency conversion, that's about US $4.45/gal.  gas in the US right now is $2.50/gal.  why do you think this is given that canada is a more oil rich nation?

http://www.npr.org/2013/03/28/175550949/imf-gas-prices-dont-reflect-true-costs

i once drove to quebec city for a conference through vermont and made the mistake of filling up after crossing the border. big mistake.
That's because Canada is a frickin socialist country.

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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Jan 04, 2015 6:40 pm

gasoline in norway, another very oil rich country is US $7/gal right now. now that this has been pointed out, expect to hear that every other country besides the US is socialist.
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Post by truthbetold Sun Jan 04, 2015 6:47 pm

tax on gasoline is higher in canada, and norway.  US prices are more reflective of market costs.

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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Jan 04, 2015 6:54 pm

truthbetold wrote:tax on gasoline is higher in canada, and norway.  US prices are more reflective of market costs.

you're talking about direct taxes which the consumer pays.  the US also gives huge tax subsidies to the oil industry. if these were removed, i have read estimates of gas prices somewhere in the $10-$15/gal range.  this is why it's not a level playing field for hybrids and EVs. so while decrying subsidies in india, let's remember those of us who live in the US benefit from subsidies too.
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Post by Hellsangel Sun Jan 04, 2015 7:05 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
truthbetold wrote:tax on gasoline is higher in canada, and norway.  US prices are more reflective of market costs.

you're talking about direct taxes which the consumer pays.  the US also gives huge tax subsidies to the oil industry. if these were removed, i have read estimates of gas prices somewhere in the $10-$15/gal range.  this is why it's not a level playing field for hybrids and EVs.  so while decrying subsidies in india, let's remember those of us who live in the US benefit from subsidies too.

You're happily forgetting heating oil subsidies. A favorite subsidy of the Democrats.
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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Jan 04, 2015 7:12 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
truthbetold wrote:tax on gasoline is higher in canada, and norway.  US prices are more reflective of market costs.

you're talking about direct taxes which the consumer pays.  the US also gives huge tax subsidies to the oil industry. if these were removed, i have read estimates of gas prices somewhere in the $10-$15/gal range.  this is why it's not a level playing field for hybrids and EVs.  so while decrying subsidies in india, let's remember those of us who live in the US benefit from subsidies too.

You're happily forgetting heating oil subsidies. A favorite subsidy of the Democrats.

the share of oil heat is 6% in the US. natural gas is close to 50%.  so heating oil subsidies are a miniscule sliver compared to what big oil companies receive.
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Post by Hellsangel Sun Jan 04, 2015 7:38 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
truthbetold wrote:tax on gasoline is higher in canada, and norway.  US prices are more reflective of market costs.

you're talking about direct taxes which the consumer pays.  the US also gives huge tax subsidies to the oil industry. if these were removed, i have read estimates of gas prices somewhere in the $10-$15/gal range.  this is why it's not a level playing field for hybrids and EVs.  so while decrying subsidies in india, let's remember those of us who live in the US benefit from subsidies too.

You're happily forgetting heating oil subsidies. A favorite subsidy of the Democrats.

the share of oil heat is 6% in the US. natural gas is close to 50%.  so heating oil subsidies are a miniscule sliver compared to what big oil companies receive.

Wikipedia has more on the so called subsidies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_subsidies wrote:However, many of the "subsidies" available to the oil and gas industries are general business opportunity credits, available to all US businesses (particularly, the foreign tax credit mentioned above).
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Post by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Jan 04, 2015 8:05 pm

just so we understand each other, i have a more nuanced view about the use of fossil fuels and certainly don't side with the most extreme views on the left. anything we do about energy has to be carefully considered so we don't rock the still fragile recovery.

though written by someone with an opposing political view to mine, this is a fair article on the subject that i found a while ago:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/energysource/2012/04/25/the-surprising-reason-that-oil-subsidies-persist-even-liberals-love-them/
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Post by Hellsangel Sun Jan 04, 2015 8:06 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:just so we understand each other, i have a more nuanced view about the use of fossil fuels and certainly don't side with the most extreme views on the left.  anything we do about energy has to be carefully considered so we don't rock the still fragile recovery.  

though written by someone with an opposing political view to mine, this is a fair article on the subject that i found a while ago:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/energysource/2012/04/25/the-surprising-reason-that-oil-subsidies-persist-even-liberals-love-them/

I already read that Smile
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Post by truthbetold Sun Jan 04, 2015 8:27 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
truthbetold wrote:tax on gasoline is higher in canada, and norway.  US prices are m

ore reflective of market costs.

you're talking about direct taxes which the consumer pays.  the US also gives huge tax subsidies to the oil industry. if these were removed, i have read estimates of gas prices somewhere in the $10-$15/gal range.  this is why it's not a level playing field for hybrids and EVs. so while decrying subsidies in india, let's remember those of us who live in the US benefit from subsidies too.

I am not trying to be rude but those numbers seem absurd. US consumed 134 billion gallons in 2013. Credible estimates of us subsidies to oil industry vary between 10 to 50 billion dollars. You do the math.
I am all for renewable energy. However oil industry used its subsidies, they are finding new oil sources at sea in areas like gulf and shale oil in north Dakota. The subsidies are not wasted ( consumed by end User with helping regeneration of the resource).

In India the subsidy went trucking industry. It is paid by budget deficit. It become a very large part leading to economic distortions. That is why mms tried to end subsidies after 2010 but Congress refused to cooperate.
It is illogical to argue that oil subsidy reduced vegetable cost by reducing trucking cost while oil subsidy results in very high inflation leading to higher vegetable costs.

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Post by rawemotions Sun Jan 04, 2015 9:04 pm

truthbetold wrote:Sevaji

You are on right track. 

When India sold Petrol at Rs. 50 in 2007 with crude &147, Man mohan laid the foundation for the economic recession of 2012.  I would not put all the blame on Man Mohan. It is a legacy of India's subsidy raj for votes.  Manmohan tried to get out of it in later years and tried to reduce subsidies. His efforts were not complete due to resistance from congress.  

It is idiotic to even argue that India can afford the humongous subsidy for petrol. Man Mohan himself initiated the process of scaling back petro subsidies.
Nowadays it has become a fashion for folks (interestingly the source of the graph is not shown) who cannot write a proper comparison of anything economic to just blindly compare some numbers to somehow show the newly installed NM government in bad light. 

a) 2010 was around the time Chidu even started the the gradual phase out of subsidies. So full subsidies were in vogue
    by May 2014, Congress had brought down the subsidies quite a bit. So NM started with a lower subsidies
b)The Highlight of the so called picture is a Plain LIE. 
    The price quoted for $147 might have been an instantaneous peak value. The average value of 2010
    varied from 125 to may be 90. In India spot prices do not go up and down every day, as they are regulated.
    So any retail price is based on the average value of USD bpd over 3-4 months. So if we compare
    that it is probably around $110 for 2010.
c) The INR value has depreciated sharply against the USD. In 2010 it was around 44. Today it is 64. Compared to the 2010
    value it has depreciated about 43%. Oil trade is completely dollar denominated.

Factoring in all this, the current price is more or less Ok. Moreover again since it is based on average of the past few months.
So the MA will track the precipitous downward drop a little slowly. The ONLY thing NDA has done is to slightly increase the excise duty on Oil probably to fund purchases of Oil reserves.


These folks with half-baked knowledge had been doing, this kind of stuff for Maa-Beta Sarkar government, except that they were showing everything as positive. No wonder economy went for a tail spin under UPA-2 with Maa-Beta Sarkar running the show.

Off course expecting MORONS who are guided by prejudice, to do a proper comparison of two pieces of economic data is asking for too much. We all know that. Don't we ?

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Post by confuzzled dude Sun Jan 04, 2015 11:04 pm

truthbetold wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
truthbetold wrote:tax on gasoline is higher in canada, and norway.  US prices are m

ore reflective of market costs.

you're talking about direct taxes which the consumer pays.  the US also gives huge tax subsidies to the oil industry. if these were removed, i have read estimates of gas prices somewhere in the $10-$15/gal range.  this is why it's not a level playing field for hybrids and EVs.  so while decrying subsidies in india, let's remember those of us who live in the US benefit from subsidies too.

I am not trying to be rude but those numbers seem absurd.  US consumed 134 billion gallons in 2013. Credible estimates of us subsidies to oil industry vary between 10 to 50 billion dollars. You do the math.
I am all for renewable energy. However oil industry used its subsidies,  they are finding new oil sources at sea in areas like gulf and shale oil in north Dakota. The subsidies are not wasted ( consumed by end User with helping regeneration of the resource).

In India the subsidy went trucking industry. It is paid by budget deficit. It become a very large part leading to economic distortions. That is why mms tried to end subsidies after 2010 but Congress refused to cooperate.
It is illogical to argue that oil subsidy reduced vegetable cost by reducing trucking cost while oil subsidy results in very high inflation leading to higher vegetable costs.
Are you suggesting that oil companies took a hit by finding new oil sources? Last I checked oil companies are flush with cash.

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Post by truthbetold Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:51 am

Cd
US subsidies are based on encouraging innovation, job creation etc. Research credit is another example of a tax credit widely used by most successful companies including apple. In case you did not notice apple has the largest cash hoarding in the world.

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Post by Seva Lamberdar Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:43 am

For the petrol (gas) to be more expensive (per gallon) at the gas station in Canada than in the U.S., that is because the Canadian gallon is slightly larger than the American gallon and also because the tax (provincial and federal) on gas / petrol in Canada, according to the media reports,  is higher than the tax (fed. and state) on gas / petrol in the U.S. Thus the cheaper price of gas / petrol in the U.S. (than Canada) is not a proof that the U.S. Govt. subsidizes petrol prices for consumers in America. Similarly, the higher prices of petrol in Norway, in $9 / gal range, is to keep the petrol prices in that country at the same level as in the rest of Europe.
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