long thread at e.j.m.r. on ivy league "discriminAsian"

[swapna]

a separate thread summarizing an earlier, detailed thread:

www.econjobrumors.com/topic/im-scared-to-open-the-ivy-league-discriminasian-thread

the detailed thread:

www.econjobrumors.com/topic/ivy-league-discriminasian

both are full of information, results of studies, opinions, and arguments for and against.

post your arguments and opinions if you can register; you'll need a university connection to do so.

[MaxEntropy_Man]

some data, but a lot of ad hominem name caling. most of it is a repeat of the arguments put forth in the espenshade study, maybe with updated data. many highly qualified indian students from a local high school who would have apples to the ivies are turning to uchicago, duke, northwestern and umich because they don't believe the ivy lies abt holistic admissions processes and want no part of helping ivies better their selectivity numbers.

[MaxEntropy_Man]

people have been saying these things for a while now but this thread from some obscure Econ discussion board seems to have caught your attention.

[MaxEntropy_Man]

here is a brutally honest comment which is probably closest to the truth:

I think people have to be realistic in the following sense - a school like Harvard bills itself as a sort of prep academy for future elites. Does anyone really think that America's future elite will be 1/3rd or more East Asian? That's not going to happen, so Harvard and other schools aren't going to remove themselves from elite prep status by displacing actual future elites with competent but largely undistinguished Asian applicants.

Is that harsh and "unfair"? Sure, perhaps. But so what? Do you think les grandes écoles in France would permit their demographic mixture to tilt so wildly against that of the French elite? Of course not.

[Marathadi-Saamiyaar]

here is a brutally honest comment which is probably closest to the truth:

I think people have to be realistic in the following sense - a school like Harvard bills itself as a sort of prep academy for future elites. Does anyone really think that America's future elite will be 1/3rd or more East Asian? That's not going to happen, so Harvard and other schools aren't going to remove themselves from elite prep status by displacing actual future elites with competent but largely undistinguished Asian applicants.

Is that harsh and "unfair"? Sure, perhaps. But so what? Do you think les grandes écoles in France would permit their demographic mixture to tilt so wildly against that of the French elite? Of course not.

Didn't I say the same thing in a much simpler way ? It is their country and white man country. They will naturally do everything to hold to the power. This is nothing but a society's natural trait.

[MaxEntropy_Man]

here is a brutally honest comment which is probably closest to the truth:

I think people have to be realistic in the following sense - a school like Harvard bills itself as a sort of prep academy for future elites. Does anyone really think that America's future elite will be 1/3rd or more East Asian? That's not going to happen, so Harvard and other schools aren't going to remove themselves from elite prep status by displacing actual future elites with competent but largely undistinguished Asian applicants.

Is that harsh and "unfair"? Sure, perhaps. But so what? Do you think les grandes écoles in France would permit their demographic mixture to tilt so wildly against that of the French elite? Of course not.

Didn't I say the same thing in a much simpler way ? It is their country and white man country. They will naturally do everything to hold to the power. This is nothing but a society's natural trait.

you did, but that doesn't mean we should accept it and not fight the system. my posting that comment doesn't mean i agree with it, but to point out that in a crude sense at the core of it, this is the attitude of the adcoms.

i am not sure i agree with this language of "their country" and "white man country". are you comfortable with your kids living in "their country"?

[Marathadi-Saamiyaar]

here is a brutally honest comment which is probably closest to the truth:

I think people have to be realistic in the following sense - a school like Harvard bills itself as a sort of prep academy for future elites. Does anyone really think that America's future elite will be 1/3rd or more East Asian? That's not going to happen, so Harvard and other schools aren't going to remove themselves from elite prep status by displacing actual future elites with competent but largely undistinguished Asian applicants.

Is that harsh and "unfair"? Sure, perhaps. But so what? Do you think les grandes écoles in France would permit their demographic mixture to tilt so wildly against that of the French elite? Of course not.

Didn't I say the same thing in a much simpler way ? It is their country and white man country. They will naturally do everything to hold to the power. This is nothing but a society's natural trait.

you did, but that doesn't mean we should accept it and not fight the system. my posting that comment doesn't mean i agree with it, but to point out that in a crude sense at the core of it, this is the attitude of the adcoms.  

i am not sure i agree with this language of "their country" and "white man country".  are you comfortable with your kids living in "their country"?

I dont agree with it either...but I am a realist. It takes someone of their own "kind" to fight their own system. You and I are outsiders and will be termed "whiners": Ex. There is rampant discrimination of the upper castes in TN. They themselves could not fight the battle effectively.

Your fight will be a wasted energy and effort - unless the Chinkus, the Koreans, Japs, and the Indians and Pakis all joined together....Duh...you will just fight all your life to even bring even the Indians and Pakis under one umbrella (heck...even the Indians themselves will not be united).

Similar thing here: iDam, pOrul, eAval arindhu Nada.

[garam-kuta]

a separate thread summarizing an earlier, detailed thread:

www.econjobrumors.com/topic/im-scared-to-open-the-ivy-league-discriminasian-thread

the detailed thread:

www.econjobrumors.com/topic/ivy-league-discriminasian

both are full of information, results of studies, opinions, and arguments for and against.

post your arguments and opinions if you can register; you'll need a university connection to do so.

Headline correction: econjobrumors cannot be abbreviated as e.j.m.r - It can be ejr or ejrm but not ejmr.
Anybody can be a curmudgeon if they want. Check the dictionary for meaning of adapt. It can also be used in the context of my previous post. And "the" is used to specify only some of the manufacturers, not all. Only the manufacturers of highly viscous liquids.

[MaxEntropy_Man]

here is a brutally honest comment which is probably closest to the truth:

I think people have to be realistic in the following sense - a school like Harvard bills itself as a sort of prep academy for future elites. Does anyone really think that America's future elite will be 1/3rd or more East Asian? That's not going to happen, so Harvard and other schools aren't going to remove themselves from elite prep status by displacing actual future elites with competent but largely undistinguished Asian applicants.

Is that harsh and "unfair"? Sure, perhaps. But so what? Do you think les grandes écoles in France would permit their demographic mixture to tilt so wildly against that of the French elite? Of course not.

Didn't I say the same thing in a much simpler way ? It is their country and white man country. They will naturally do everything to hold to the power. This is nothing but a society's natural trait.

you did, but that doesn't mean we should accept it and not fight the system. my posting that comment doesn't mean i agree with it, but to point out that in a crude sense at the core of it, this is the attitude of the adcoms.  

i am not sure i agree with this language of "their country" and "white man country".  are you comfortable with your kids living in "their country"?

I dont agree with it either...but I am a realist.  It takes someone of their own "kind" to fight their own system. You and I are outsiders and will be termed "whiners": Ex. There is rampant discrimination of the upper castes in TN. They themselves could not fight the battle effectively.

Your fight will be a wasted energy and effort - unless the Chinkus, the Koreans, Japs, and the Indians and Pakis all joined together....Duh...you will just fight all your life to even bring even the Indians and Pakis under one umbrella (heck...even the Indians themselves will not be united).

Similar thing here: iDam, pOrul, eAval arindhu Nada.

i noticed that you conveniently ignored my very pointed q repeated below for your convenience:

 are you comfortable with your kids living in "their country"?

imagine what might have happened if the jewish folks who were similarly discriminated in the 20s and 30s hadn't "whined".  as their political clout grew, harvard and other ivies had to abandon discriminatory policies against jews.  read the thread that flim flam posted. someone posted a verbatim account of the then harvard president's strategy to limit jewish presence on campus. it's the asians' turn now to be at the receiving end of racist policies cloaked in crap about holistic admission criteria. no matter how futile it may sound now, it is important to keep this issue alive and make the elite colleges feel the public pressure.  i am sure somebody is feeling embarrassed when parallels are being drawn between the new "asian problem" and harvard's old "jewish problem". same old shit and same old stink, just a different air freshener.

[MaxEntropy_Man]

here is an article on the subject from an alum and reader of student applications:

http://reason.com/archives/2015/05/25/harvards-asian-american-quota-turns-dive

[Kris]

here is a brutally honest comment which is probably closest to the truth:

I think people have to be realistic in the following sense - a school like Harvard bills itself as a sort of prep academy for future elites. Does anyone really think that America's future elite will be 1/3rd or more East Asian? That's not going to happen, so Harvard and other schools aren't going to remove themselves from elite prep status by displacing actual future elites with competent but largely undistinguished Asian applicants.

Is that harsh and "unfair"? Sure, perhaps. But so what? Do you think les grandes écoles in France would permit their demographic mixture to tilt so wildly against that of the French elite? Of course not.

Didn't I say the same thing in a much simpler way ? It is their country and white man country. They will naturally do everything to hold to the power. This is nothing but a society's natural trait.

The problem is that this sort of affirmative action for the elite will get shown up sooner or later. If that is indeed the agenda of the elite schools, they will lose out to the Berkeleys of the world who prefer to go the merit route. Also, this elite business itself will become laughable, if it means their niche is government employment and the legal profession and there is a huge under-representation in tech and sciences. if the ivies' intent is to cater to this empty suitdom, bon voyage on that long but certain road to irrelevance. I don't think even they can be that stupid, assuming they can all this back legally for now.

[Marathadi-Saamiyaar]

here is a brutally honest comment which is probably closest to the truth:

Didn't I say the same thing in a much simpler way ? It is their country and white man country. They will naturally do everything to hold to the power. This is nothing but a society's natural trait.

you did, but that doesn't mean we should accept it and not fight the system. my posting that comment doesn't mean i agree with it, but to point out that in a crude sense at the core of it, this is the attitude of the adcoms.  

i am not sure i agree with this language of "their country" and "white man country".  are you comfortable with your kids living in "their country"?

I dont agree with it either...but I am a realist.  It takes someone of their own "kind" to fight their own system. You and I are outsiders and will be termed "whiners": Ex. There is rampant discrimination of the upper castes in TN. They themselves could not fight the battle effectively.

Your fight will be a wasted energy and effort - unless the Chinkus, the Koreans, Japs, and the Indians and Pakis all joined together....Duh...you will just fight all your life to even bring even the Indians and Pakis under one umbrella (heck...even the Indians themselves will not be united).

Similar thing here: iDam, pOrul, eAval arindhu Nada.

i noticed that you conveniently ignored my very pointed q repeated below for your convenience:

 are you comfortable with your kids living in "their country"?

imagine what might have happened if the jewish folks who were similarly discriminated in the 20s and 30s hadn't "whined".  as their political clout grew, harvard and other ivies had to abandon discriminatory policies against jews.  read the thread that flim flam posted. someone posted a verbatim account of the then harvard president's strategy to limit jewish presence on campus. it's the asians' turn now to be at the receiving end of racist policies cloaked in crap about holistic admission criteria. no matter how futile it may sound now, it is important to keep this issue alive and make the elite colleges feel the public pressure.  i am sure somebody is feeling embarrassed when parallels are being drawn between the new "asian problem" and harvard's old "jewish problem". same old shit and same old stink, just a different air freshener.

Do I feel comfortable?...I have gotten used to it. Will I want my descendants to live in "their" country? descendants will take care of it. Even the jews had to fight it out over a couple of generations. These things take decades. Indians who oppose this as it reduces the chances of their kids entering these institutions. In a way they are indirectly recognizing "greatness" of these institutions which are built on the so called discrimination.

Simply put...those in power try to hang on to it and save it for themselves.

[swapna]

people have been saying these things for a while now but this thread from some obscure Econ discussion board seems to have caught your attention.

I'm glad that we didn't join the chorus of asian-american parents condemning the ivy-league universities for not offering admission to yet another uninspiring and uninspired indian or chinese boy or girl who wants to do computer science or engineering at college only because his mamma told him to do that.

we never complained of discrimination against asians because we considered ourselves individuals, not asians or "non-white minorities"; and were busy getting our children to explore scholarly, cultural, and physical activities that aligned with their talents and propensities.

[MaxEntropy_Man]

shifting the goal post are we? i value your parenting advice but that's not what this thread is about. you posted these links saying there are arguments on both sides to be found. i read what you posted and while the asian american side has posted strong, cogent arguments supported by pertinent data, the other side has resorted to hand waving and ad hominem attacks. it's surprising that you won't even acknowledge that given your past assertion that such discrimination does not exist. we too consider ourselves to be individuals, but that's sort of besides the point for this debate. this thread and the related debate is about the elite schools' tendency to view asian americans as a mass of undifferentiated individuals, which in polite circles is known as stereotyping and in truth is just plain old racism. it is possible at the same time to empower children and help them explore their strengths and weaknesses and at the same time engage in a debate about unfairness at the ivies. the two aren't mutually exclusive.

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