hindus, sikhs, and muslims upset about santorum's remark about equality and christianity

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:39 pm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/28/hindus-sikhs-muslims-blast-rick-santorum_n_1237932.html

i don't know much about sikhism, buddhism, and islam, but the hindus don't have a basis to complain about santorum's remarks. they can quote the gita as much as they want, but the still present caste system makes it impossible for hindus to criticize santorum.

by chameli Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:12 pm

the Hindu caste system has been misunderstood.

It started as the 4 varnas , Brahmins, Kshtriyas , Vaishyas and Shudras where duties of people were distributed according to their lineage and worth and it worked to make for a peaceful society

later on took on an ugly turn

western religions also have a hierarchy . Protestants consider themselves to be superior to catholics ..

and among the Protestants the Baptists are the garden variety whereas Episcopalian and Presbyterians are the cream of the crop .

Islam prides itself on equality so also the Sikhs

Santorum had no business saying it without adequate basis or knowledge

by MulaiAzhagi Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:36 pm

http://www.evilbible.com/Slavery.htm

by MulaiAzhagi Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:39 pm

http://atheism.about.com/od/americachristiannation/a/EqualitySociety.htm

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:16 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/28/hindus-sikhs-muslims-blast-rick-santorum_n_1237932.html

i don't know much about sikhism, buddhism, and islam, but the hindus don't have a basis to complain about santorum's remarks. they can quote the gita as much as they want, but the still present caste system makes it impossible for hindus to criticize santorum.

1. What was the religion of the erstwhile Masters (of thousands of slaves)

2. What was the religion of people who discriminated Jews and Gypsies

3. Why are there castes in Christianity in India?

4. Are sunnis and Shiis equal? Ask them.

5. Ask who is superior...Hasidic or the Askanazi jews?

So no religion is free from discrimination within itself. It is just that the hindus have made it a tradition and formalized it.

It is not important who invented the concept, but are they practicing it?

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:24 pm

the purpose of my post was not to claim that santorum's religion is free of discrimination, but to point out that hindus have no leg to stand on.

secondly, regardless of what the bible says, the laws of this country (which some like santorum will say are based on a judeo-christian worldview) despite its sordid history of slavery have led to something approaching equality, while hindus and muslims in india are still struggling to figure it out.

by truthbetold Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:26 pm

Human dignity and equality became common norms due to Industrial progress and science if you objectively look at the data.

Religions as carriers of regional culters did play a role in this social evolution. But their role was both positive and negative. If you study the recent efforts to establish equality(ex: women's voting rights, civil rights), religion in America is on the wrong side and on many occassions wore the mask of conservatism.

by truthbetold Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:41 pm

"while hindus and muslims in india are still struggling to figure it out."

US is a prosperous country with a 200 plus years of independence. It has also has enormous natural wealth. It has achieved remarkable material success.

India is a 60 plus years of independence after being plundered for more than a 1000 years by rulers who have no incentive to improve the nation. Indian laws on Paper are very progressive and in many cases match western rethoric. But Indian state is weak both economically and execution wise. An economically stronger India would have changed many of the social ills much faster. So comparison with US are not valid.

Santorum and other claim that their religion is superior to others is based on taking credit for the progress of Industrial societies. The fact that I want to point to was religion obstructed the efforts to establish equality. Once new ideas become universally acclaimed, every one joins the bandwagon.

by MulaiAzhagi Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:04 pm

truthbetold wrote:Human dignity and equality became common norms due to Industrial progress and science if you objectively look at the data.

Religions as carriers of regional culters did play a role in this social evolution. But their role was both positive and negative. If you study the recent efforts to establish equality(ex: women's voting rights, civil rights), religion in America is on the wrong side and on many occassions wore the mask of conservatism.

===> TB,

You hit the nail on the head.

I read somewhere that had Britishers pushed industrialization and universal education, India would have swallowed Britain.

Even if pursue with full force these ideas, with ever increasing population, it is going to be very difficult to achieve social equality.

It is ironic a white Christian talks about equality in religion. The Christian church is the most segregated institution in America.

by Kris Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:11 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/28/hindus-sikhs-muslims-blast-rick-santorum_n_1237932.html

i don't know much about sikhism, buddhism, and islam, but the hindus don't have a basis to complain about santorum's remarks. they can quote the gita as much as they want, but the still present caste system makes it impossible for hindus to criticize santorum.

>>>They don't, but Santorum is way off-base when he asserts that the judeo christian ethics engendered the idea of equality, given the history of these cultures. If he is blabbering, he is going to invite others of this variety from the other camps.

by Guest Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:48 pm

"Where do you think the concept of equality comes from?" Santorum said on the campaign trail last Friday (Jan. 20). "It doesn't come from Islam. It doesn't come from the East and Eastern religions. It comes from the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob."

Does it, max?

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:15 pm

kinnera: are you highlighting something i haven't already pointed out? didn't i say in my first post that's what santorum said?

the first ideas of democracy don't come from any god, but from the heads of greek political philosophers. having said that, modern democracies all have their origin in europe and their laws are mostly based on ideas of judeo-christian jurisprudence. this is not my opinion but fact. in fact you could argue that the indian constitution which is an amalgam of the constitutions of the UK and the US is therefore based on judeo-christian ideas of jurisprudence.

in my opinion, a people can arrive at ideas of equality by a process other than religion, but in fact they were arrived at by a people professing a judeo-christian faith.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:23 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:kinnera: are you highlighting something i haven't already pointed out? didn't i say in my first post that's what santorum said?

the first ideas of democracy don't come from any god, but from the heads of greek political philosophers. having said that, modern democracies all have their origin in europe and their laws are mostly based on ideas of judeo-christian jurisprudence. this is not my opinion but fact. in fact you could argue that the indian constitution which is an amalgam of the constitutions of the UK and the US is therefore based on judeo-christian ideas of jurisprudence.

in my opinion, a people can arrive at ideas of equality by a process other than religion, but in fact they were arrived at by a people professing a judeo-christian faith.

Sorry the concept of Panchayat raj and practice was in existence much much earlier than in Greece or proposed by Greeks.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:58 pm

if the panchayat raj was so complete in enshrining democratic principles, why did the drafting committee find the need to look at western, particularly the american constitution? i am sure the panchayati raj continues to be useful in decentralizing many government functions, but we are talking about a comprehensive legal system for a large and complex nation. where do you think that came from?

by artood2 Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:35 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:kinnera: are you highlighting something i haven't already pointed out? didn't i say in my first post that's what santorum said?

the first ideas of democracy don't come from any god, but from the heads of greek political philosophers. having said that, modern democracies all have their origin in europe and their laws are mostly based on ideas of judeo-christian jurisprudence. this is not my opinion but fact. in fact you could argue that the indian constitution which is an amalgam of the constitutions of the UK and the US is therefore based on judeo-christian ideas of jurisprudence.

in my opinion, a people can arrive at ideas of equality by a process other than religion, but in fact they were arrived at by a people professing a judeo-christian faith.

Yeah the mahajanpadas never happened. Nor the numerous tribes that elected their leaders.

by charvaka Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:14 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:kinnera: are you highlighting something i haven't already pointed out? didn't i say in my first post that's what santorum said?

the first ideas of democracy don't come from any god, but from the heads of greek political philosophers. having said that, modern democracies all have their origin in europe and their laws are mostly based on ideas of judeo-christian jurisprudence. this is not my opinion but fact. in fact you could argue that the indian constitution which is an amalgam of the constitutions of the UK and the US is therefore based on judeo-christian ideas of jurisprudence.

in my opinion, a people can arrive at ideas of equality by a process other than religion, but in fact they were arrived at by a people professing a judeo-christian faith.

It is nonsensical to suggest that the idea of equality was rooted in "Judeo-Christian jurisprudence," whatever that is*. The idea of equality under the law owes its origins to Jefferson's "all men are created equal," and to the French Revolution's ideal of égalité. Jefferson was a firm believer in the separation of Church and State, so he would oppose the link that Santorum seeks to make between the constitutional right to equality and the God of any religion. The French Revolution went further, and sought to destroy the Church along with the nobles.

The notion of equality arose as a rebellion against the religious-aristocratic order of the day, not from it.

Let me illustrate the absurdity of Santorum's claim with a similar claim that you can relate to more easily: "Where do you think the heliocentric theory comes from? The Catholic Church, because Copernicus worked for a bishop and Galileo studied in a monastery."

* A strong case can be made that historically, there was no such thing. Jewish law was very different from the legal systems of Christian Europe, both of which originated in their own respective pre-Christian, tribal societies. Both systems had institutionalized inequality for much of history, just like Hindu and Muslim systems.

by Kris Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:36 am

[quote="charvaka"]

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Let me illustrate the absurdity of Santorum's claim with a similar claim that you can relate to more easily: "Where do you think the heliocentric theory comes from? The Catholic Church, because Copernicus worked for a bishop and Galileo studied in a monastery."

.

>>>>The above claim is not far from the one I think Novak made in a WSJ piece once, essentially congratulating the Catholic Church for advancing the case of science. The readers took him to task on this in the Letters section. About the only credit the judeo christian tradition can take is incidental. Arguably a case can be made that once speculation was shut off on the nature of the hereafter/meaning of life/universal meaning etc with answers that centered on a single personal god, the mind was free to work on practical matters. This was sheer happenstance.

by Maria S Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:46 am

Max,

Very predictable reactions to Santorum's statement and to your post here:)

Obviously, he is just repeating the lines often repeated by Americans..especially leaders, in reference to the roots of so called American Civil Religion...think this article explains pretty much why Santorum and others, esp. conservatives say what they do *from their perspective- and the basis for it.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/09/the_judeochristian_values_of_a.html

In my view..obviously, the Judeo-Christian elements are not so narrow as they are claimed and perhaps more broadly drawn from various sources.

*The topic aside, more intriguing thing to me- are your posts (the ones I have read)..may be because I am reading them with fresh eyes after a break of many months here- sense subtle changes!Hope I did not jinx it- by saying it loud Smile

Just the aura is somehow quite different! Like it.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:19 am

Kris wrote:
charvaka wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Let me illustrate the absurdity of Santorum's claim with a similar claim that you can relate to more easily: "Where do you think the heliocentric theory comes from? The Catholic Church, because Copernicus worked for a bishop and Galileo studied in a monastery."

.

>>>>The above claim is not far from the one I think Novak made in a WSJ piece once, essentially congratulating the Catholic Church for advancing the case of science. The readers took him to task on this in the Letters section. About the only credit the judeo christian tradition can take is incidental. Arguably a case can be made that once speculation was shut off on the nature of the hereafter/meaning of life/universal meaning etc with answers that centered on a single personal god, the mind was free to work on practical matters. This was sheer happenstance.

i didn't write what you claim i wrote.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:53 am

it is true that jefferson and the other founding f's expressly avoided mentioning a particular faith, but you have to be really naive to believe that they had brahma in mind for example when they mention a creator in the DoI. somehow this seems to drive people on my side of the political divide batty. i have no problem in accepting a constitution that i agree with in letter and spirit no matter what its provenance.

by Kris Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:40 am

Let me illustrate the absurdity of Santorum's claim with a similar claim that you can relate to more easily: "Where do you think the heliocentric theory comes from? The Catholic Church, because Copernicus worked for a bishop and Galileo studied in a monastery."

. [/quote]

>>>>The above claim is not far from the one I think Novak made in a WSJ piece once, essentially congratulating the Catholic Church for advancing the case of science. The readers took him to task on this in the Letters section. About the only credit the judeo christian tradition can take is incidental. Arguably a case can be made that once speculation was shut off on the nature of the hereafter/meaning of life/universal meaning etc with answers that centered on a single personal god, the mind was free to work on practical matters. This was sheer happenstance.[/quote][/quote]

i didn't write what you claim i wrote.[/quote]

>>>> I was responding to Carvaka's post. Looks like it got mangled.

by charvaka Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:11 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:it is true that jefferson and the other founding f's expressly avoided mentioning a particular faith, but you have to be really naive to believe that they had brahma in mind for example when they mention a creator in the DoI.

Jefferson chose his words carefully, particularly for that Declaration. He didn't say God, and for good reason. He did not believe in the God of Abraham, Jacob and Isaac. He admitted of a Creator who set the world in motion, but not one who is intimately involved in its daily affairs, doing his little experiments on men to "test" them and crap like that.

The point is that Santorum is way off base taking credit on behalf of "Judeo-Christian values" for the idea of equality. Just like Novak is off base congratulating the Catholic Church for the heliocentric theory. Both ideas were strongly opposed by religious leaders of the Judeo-Christian tradition, and the ideas won out despite religion not because of it.

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