If Netanyahu loses to Tzipi Livni

by chameli Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:08 pm

will there be peace between Israel and Palestine in the future ?

I think ..yes

most of Israel does want the peace

by Kris Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:21 pm

chameli wrote:will there be peace between Israel and Palestine in the future ?

I think ..yes

most of Israel does want the peace

>>>>The issue is more dependent on the Palestinians. Even if the majority wishes for this- I am assuming people are sick of a perennial state of de facto war- there are enough rabble rousers who will throw a monkey wrench into the process. And these elements are not necessarily all from within Palestine.

by chameli Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:57 pm

I don't agree .

Israeli right wingers are invading and gobbling up legitimate Arab homelands on the West bank with the intention of going all the way to Jordan .

The whole world sees this as an occupation but no one can stop them because the US as usual rubber stamps everything that Israel does

The previous Israeli P.M. almost had the peace process going Netanyahu is the main reason why it has turned around again

it is not upto the Palestinians but in the hands of the Israeli administraion

by Kris Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:06 pm

chameli wrote:I don't agree .

Israeli right wingers are invading and gobbling up legitimate Arab homelands on the West bank with the intention of going all the way to Jordan .

The whole world sees this as an occupation but no one can stop them because the US as usual rubber stamps everything that Israel does

The previous Israeli P.M. almost had the peace process going Netanyahu is the main reason why it has turned around again

it is not upto the Palestinians but in the hands of the Israeli administraion

>>>I hate to sound pessimistic, but the middle east conflict is pretty much a no-win proposition on a permanent basis. It is at best one that can be managed and tweaked on an ongoing basis. Certainly, Israel has its share of nut jobs, but it is a case of 'just because you are a little paranoid, doesn't mean others are not out to get you'. The US interest in Israel has to do with it being the only modern state in the area and therefore, the only one can be relied upon. This would of course not be of much importance, except for the geography. For instance, if Israel were in the middle of the Pacific, it would have about as much relevance as say Fiji. Israel can make all the concessions being asked of it, but the visceral hatred for it from its neighbors (sound familiar?) will not go away. Pols like Netanyahu may seem like they are rigid in their stances, but this last cannot be wished away. Now you see the reason for my pessimism..

by charvaka Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:59 pm

Kris wrote:>>>>The issue is more dependent on the Palestinians. Even if the majority wishes for this- I am assuming people are sick of a perennial state of de facto war- there are enough rabble rousers who will throw a monkey wrench into the process. And these elements are not necessarily all from within Palestine.

Netanyahu himself is partial to the rabble-rousers on his side, and his actions have been anything but helpful to peace. Building a wall, continuing settlements, etc. are all against the spirit of a two-state solution. The road ahead is difficult even if Kadima under Livni wins, but it is most difficult when Netanyahu is in power.

by chameli Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:13 pm

netanyahu is the major obstruction to any peace process

He is sure that the US will back any action Israel seeks as it has been for the last 50 years because the Jewish association in the US is the most powerful even more powerful that the NRA or the farm lobby .

Anything could happen this year . If N feels that he will lose the election he will bomb Iran .

The right wing and the Jewish organization in the US will make sure that Obama gets into the conflict even though Iran is no threat nor has it ever been.

by Kris Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:28 pm

chameli wrote:netanyahu is the major obstruction to any peace process

Anything could happen this year . If N feels that he will lose the election he will bomb Iran .

The right wing and the Jewish organization in the US will make sure that Obama gets into the conflict even though Iran is no threat nor has it ever been.

>>>>A nuclear Iran is a very bad idea. It is not just some wing nuts' paranoia. It is not for nothing so many countries are worried about this. That includes nations like Saudi Arabia. If Israel bombs Iran, it will be out of a need for self-protection. Israel has a developed political culture and populace that cannot be bamboozled into electing Netanyahu solely on the basis of bombing iran just for the hell of it.

by chameli Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:44 pm

Nuclear Iran will not bomb Israel because it is not a self destructive nation

A nuclear Iran will be as safe as a country like nuclear North Korea , India ,Pakistan or Russia

Iran now has the confidence and respect of the other countries of the world.

Israel has more nuclear weapons than India and Pakistan put together

just because u have weapons doesnt mean u go to war

.there have been no nuclear attacks since Hiroshima in 1945

this paranoia of Netanyahu is baseless

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:55 pm

the only country ever to employ a nuclear weapon is the one that most often does the preaching. something to always keep in mind while discussing nukes.

by charvaka Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:00 pm

I am very uncomfortable with the notion of a nuclear Iran. It will be the first theocracy to have a nuke, for one thing. For another, its leaders have formally stated that they want Israel wiped off the map. Iran getting the nuke almost automatically means Saudi Arabia and Egypt pursuing nukes too in a regional arms race for prestige. Saudi Arabia will be able to buy a bomb easily from one of AQ Khan's proteges who run the show now in Pakistan.

That said, to the original question of Netanyahu, I see him as an obstacle to peace, not someone who helps peace along.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:08 pm

charvaka wrote: It will be the first theocracy to have a nuke, for one thing.

a democracy, purportedly the greatest and oldest in the modern world is the first and only one to actually use it. i think fears of an iranian theocracy going batshit crazy and dropping bombs all over the middle east only sound comical and not realistic. the persians are an ancient and civilized people with great contributions to the world's body of literature, science, and mathematics. they also have an innate sense of self preservation just like anybody else. to treat them otherwise is quite insulting. i'm not at all convinced that they'll be any less responsible that the US and israel just because they acquired nukes.

the americans tend to treat all muslims like the taliban and al qaeda. there is no reason we indians should believe that.

by charvaka Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:23 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
charvaka wrote: It will be the first theocracy to have a nuke, for one thing.

a democracy, purportedly the greatest and oldest in the modern world is the first and only one to actually use it. i think fears of an iranian theocracy going batshit crazy and dropping bombs all over the middle east only sound comical and not realistic. the persians are an ancient and civilized people with great contributions to the world's body of literature, science, and mathematics. they also have an innate sense of self preservation just like anybody else. to treat them otherwise is quite insulting. i'm not at all convinced that they'll be any less responsible that the US and israel just because they acquired nukes.

the americans tend to treat all muslims like the taliban and al qaeda. there is no reason we indians should believe that.

My concern with Iran for three reasons. The mad theocrats who like crowds chanting "death to America" is part 1. Mad theocrats who formally state that they will wipe Israel off the map is part 2. And unstable regimes like Saudi Arabia getting nuke in response -- and then potentially giving way to a far-right regime in its stead -- is part 3. When you put them all together, the whole thing makes me very uneasy. And none of this is about Muslims -- after all, Pakistan already has the Islamic Bomb.

by Kris Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:57 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
charvaka wrote: It will be the first theocracy to have a nuke, for one thing.

a democracy, purportedly the greatest and oldest in the modern world is the first and only one to actually use it. i think fears of an iranian theocracy going batshit crazy and dropping bombs all over the middle east only sound comical and not realistic. the persians are an ancient and civilized people with great contributions to the world's body of literature, science, and mathematics. they also have an innate sense of self preservation just like anybody else. to treat them otherwise is quite insulting. i'm not at all convinced that they'll be any less responsible that the US and israel just because they acquired nukes.

the americans tend to treat all muslims like the taliban and al qaeda. there is no reason we indians should believe that.

>>>>The history may indeed be glorious and have contributed to world civilization, but this was in a pre- fundamentalist era. For that matter, the Arabs themselves contributed significantly historically, but turned inward with the hardening of religious values. The problem is a long term one, when you don't know who is going to be in power next since there is no reasonable mechanism for orderly transition of power. To wit, the awkward tango with Pakistan. Add to that, the general gravitation toward fundamentalism. The rants of wiping israel off the planet may or may not be just political theater, but this is not something an entity like Israel can dismiss lightly.
I do have more comfort with israel or the US being more responsible in this regard, given the built-in checks and balances and poerr not concentrated in a very few hands. The US did use nukes, but has refrained from it in the past 60 years, despite other conflicts. That does speak to its sense of responsibility at least with regard to this.

by Kris Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:19 am

charvaka wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
charvaka wrote: It will be the first theocracy to have a nuke, for one thing.

a democracy, purportedly the greatest and oldest in the modern world is the first and only one to actually use it. i think fears of an iranian theocracy going batshit crazy and dropping bombs all over the middle east only sound comical and not realistic. the persians are an ancient and civilized people with great contributions to the world's body of literature, science, and mathematics. they also have an innate sense of self preservation just like anybody else. to treat them otherwise is quite insulting. i'm not at all convinced that they'll be any less responsible that the US and israel just because they acquired nukes.

the americans tend to treat all muslims like the taliban and al qaeda. there is no reason we indians should believe that.
My concern with Iran for three reasons. The mad theocrats who like crowds chanting "death to America" is part 1. Mad theocrats who formally state that they will wipe Israel off the map is part 2. And unstable regimes like Saudi Arabia getting nuke in response -- and then potentially giving way to a far-right regime in its stead -- is part 3. When you put them all together, the whole thing makes me very uneasy. And none of this is about Muslims -- after all, Pakistan already has the Islamic Bomb.

>>>> I wouldn't have a problem with an islamic nation had the bomb, provided there is mature governance, with built-in-checks and balances. I guess Turkey is the one that comes closest as of now. Pakistan itself has proven to be a Faustian bargain with Washington grappling with the problem, after the fact. Then again, no one can accuse the foreign policy crowd of thinking thru long term implications. Oh well..

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