Response to Max

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
questions to rashmun:

1) is there ever a point in any discussion when you say to yourself, "it seems like i have no clue about this and the person talking to me seems to have spent quite a bit of time immersing themselves in this subject. maybe their informed perspective is deeper than my random internet searches and i am better off taking some time finding out more about this stuff than doing the cut-paste-post routine"?

2) if not, why not?

Max, it is my belief that your bias with respect to the Naatya Shastra was revealed to yourself by me and you have learnt to now appreciate the kashmiri text better. I have read online articles on BN, Naatya Shastra, etc., but i have also personally attended BN performances and recitals. As a rule i avoid discussing topics about which i have no clue. But in this case of Naatya Shastra and BN it was my belief that you were underplaying the role of Naatya Shastra in BN because it was a kashmiri (i.e. north indian) text. You mentioned earlier that the relationship of Naatya Shastra and BN should be compared to that of ancient Greek thinkers and modern physicists. Subsequently you claimed the views of a practitioner of the BN dance and should be sought and they should be asked whether they consider the Naatya Shastra an authoritative text. When i gave a direct quote of Shobhana on the Naatya Shastra, you decided discretion to be the better part of valor and steered well away from my post.

With respect to BN and Naatya Shastra, i consider myself to be like Alberuni. Since i have no biases i can better identify and appreciate the relationship of Naatya Shastra with BN.

my stopping communicating with you about dance or music neither means that i have accepted your views, nor that i have doubts about my earlier positions. it simply means that i don't believe any longer that you are in these discussions in a spirit of discovery.

further, the notion that you are an unbiased individual is laughable given your history on sulekha and this forum. you certainly have a strong and single-minded agenda, a largely northindian-centric agenda. i could have continued with the discussion and made you look increasingly ridiculous than you already were, but bowed out because there is no fun shooting fish in a bowl and because it was starting to get boring talking to a stubborn individual.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:my stopping communicating with you about dance or music neither means that i have accepted your views, nor that i have doubts about my earlier positions. it simply means that i don't believe any longer that you are in these discussions in a spirit of discovery.

further, the notion that you are an unbiased individual is laughable given your history on sulekha and this forum. you certainly have a strong and single-minded agenda, a largely northindian-centric agenda. i could have continued with the discussion and made you look increasingly ridiculous than you already were, but bowed out because there is no fun shooting fish in a bowl and because it was starting to get boring talking to a stubborn individual.

1. I have changed my opinions on various issues. Huzefa Kapasi only recently confirmed this. He has known me since 1998 i.e. a lot longer than anyone else on this forum with the exception of Kris.
2. My view on regionalism is similar to your view (also my view) on communalism. Just as i have a bias against communalism (and for secularism), similarly i also have a bias against any kind of regionalism (and a bias for nationalism).
3. My biases do not mean that i will resort to telling lies or falsehood. There was a telugu professor based in Australia who once wrote on sulekha that 'Rashmun is a bright and balanced scholar'. Even though at that time i was being flamed by many posters for my views on Indian philosophy. I have a preference (or bias) in favor of the science-oriented Indian philosophies and a bias against the Indian philosophies which i regard to be anti-science.
4. I have never hesitated in pointing out those aspects of Indian culture which NI borrowed from SI. For instance i pointed out that the Mitakshara school of law originated in South India, but was subsequently accepted by north indians and spread all over India (with the exception of Bengal and Assam where a different but similar school of law prevailed).
5. But the fact that the Vedas and Upanisad were composed in NI (or regions closest to NI) is something i cannot ignore. The sanskrit language also originated in NI or regions closest to NI.
6. Several themes ( i am looking for a better word) went into the making of modern BN. This includes the the Naatya Shastra which is an NI text, and whose best known commentary is also written by an NI. I recognize that the Naatya Shastra being an NI text makes you uncomfortable because it implies that BN is not a purely tamil (or at least purely SI) dance form, and hence your initial efforts to minimize the influence of the Naatya Shastra on BN. But i have given an extract of the famous BN dancer Shobhana in which she says that she is arrogant because Naatya Shastra says it is all right for a dancer to be arrogant. In other words, she considers the Naatya Shastra to be an authoritative text. I have also pointed out that in various temples in TN there are sculputures in which the figures are depicted in various BN postures which are directly taken from the Naatya Shastra. (In Nataraja temple, the BN posture of the sculpture can be seen together with an inscription giving the exact Naatya Shastra reference to the posture being seen). Hence, i am highlighting the Naatya Shastra and its relationship with BN for the simple reason that you keep minimizing (as i see it) its importance. I find your analogy of comparing the Naatya Shastra to ancient Greek physics and modern BN to modern physics to be laughable. In some ways, the Naatya Shastra is more complex than modern BN since for instance only a sub-set of the complete list of postures given in the Naatya Shastra are included in modern BN.

my last word on this -- the naatya shastra can be this, that, or the other. what we are talking about here is BN as it is taught, performed and understood today. all of the structural organization of that, nearly all the performed compositions, and the recital format are the work of the tanjore quartet. there is no question about any of this. shobana quoting the naatya shastra does not mean that she doesn't agree with this. i suggest if you know her well that you specifically point her to the discussions we have had on this thread and ask her for her opinion about these questions.

and learn to stay on topic. quoting your earlier posts on philosophy is a) irrelevant to the thread and b) i have no interest in religious philosophy, indian or otherwise.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:my last word on this -- the naatya shastra can be this, that, or the other. what we are talking about here is BN as it is taught, performed and understood today. all of the structural organization of that, nearly all the performed compositions, and the recital format are the work of the tanjore quartet. there is no question about any of this. shobana quoting the naatya shastra does not mean that she doesn't agree with this. i suggest if you know her well that you specifically point her to the discussions we have had on this thread and ask her for her opinion about these questions.

Then why are BN dancers being encouraged to attend workshops on the Naatya Shastra on the ground that it will improve their performance?

https://such.forumotion.com/t10839-chennai-workshop-on-bharatha-muni-s-naatya-shastra-being-conducted-my-view-vindicated

[One of the posts in the thread whose link i give above:

Hyderabad: The Chowmahalla Palace is organizing a Workshop on Natya Sastra in its serene premises under the aegis of Padma Bhushan Dr.(Ms) Padma Subramaniam (Managing Trustee of BHARATA–ILANGO FOUNDATION FOR ASIAN CULTURE (BIFAC)) from 25th to 30th July 2011 for the benefit of Natya Gurus, Senior dancers and professional dancers and upcoming dancers, for the age group of 15 and above, and 25 and above.

The workshop would cover the following subjects:
Angas - Variations of head, chest, sides, waist and feet
Upangas - Variations of thigh, knee and shank
Upangas of face - eyeball and eyebrow
Bahu Karma
Sthanas for men and women
Charis - a few Bhumi Charis and a few Akasa Charis
Hasta Karanas, Nritta Hastas & a few Karanas
One Dance Number

It would be a rare occasion for the artists of dance field to ponder over on the Natya Sastra subject. This is first of its kind being organized at Hyderabad by Chowmahalla Palace and in association with, Ms. Padma Subramanyam, who is a reputed artist of our country and a rare combination of a dancer, research scholar, Choreographer, singer, music composer, author Indologist.

The concluding session will be on 30th at 7:00pm. His Excellency the Governor of Andhra Pradesh will be the Chief Guest. Certificates will be awarded to the artists, who will be participating in the Workshop.

http://news.kalaparva.com/2011/06/workshop-on-natya-shastra.html ]

Padma Subramaniam, i will point out, is considered one of the foremost exponents of modern BN. In other words, she is a practitioner of the dance form.

rashmun i won't be responding to itty bitty scraps that you scavenge from all over the place. i posted one ph.d. thesis from the university of hyderabad and a very long article by a researcher at weleyan university (which IMO is unparalleled in north america when it comes to scholarly studies on indian performing arts). until you dig through those, there will be no conversation.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:rashmun i won't be responding to itty bitty scraps that you scavenge from all over the place. i posted one ph.d. thesis from the university of hyderabad and a very long article by a researcher at weleyan university (which IMO is unparalleled in north american when it comes to scholarly studies on indian performing arts). until you dig through those, there will be no conversation.

will you respond to what shobhana has to say on what we have been discussing?

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:rashmun i won't be responding to itty bitty scraps that you scavenge from all over the place. i posted one ph.d. thesis from the university of hyderabad and a very long article by a researcher at weleyan university (which IMO is unparalleled in north american when it comes to scholarly studies on indian performing arts). until you dig through those, there will be no conversation.

will you respond to what shobhana has to say on what we have been discussing?

you mean any new and specific information or what you have already posted?

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:rashmun i won't be responding to itty bitty scraps that you scavenge from all over the place. i posted one ph.d. thesis from the university of hyderabad and a very long article by a researcher at weleyan university (which IMO is unparalleled in north american when it comes to scholarly studies on indian performing arts). until you dig through those, there will be no conversation.

will you respond to what shobhana has to say on what we have been discussing?

you mean any new and specific information or what you have already posted?

no, just her independent views on the relationship between BN and Naatya Shastra.

the question that we were discussing before i broke off communication with you was about the relative authorship of what is today recognizable as BN, not just on the relationship between BN and naatya shastra alone. if she has said something specific about that question, i will respond.

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
questions to rashmun:

1) is there ever a point in any discussion when you say to yourself, "it seems like i have no clue about this and the person talking to me seems to have spent quite a bit of time immersing themselves in this subject. maybe their informed perspective is deeper than my random internet searches and i am better off taking some time finding out more about this stuff than doing the cut-paste-post routine"?

2) if not, why not?

Max, it is my belief that your bias with respect to the Naatya Shastra was revealed to yourself by me and you have learnt to now appreciate the kashmiri text better. I have read online articles on BN, Naatya Shastra, etc., but i have also personally attended BN performances and recitals. As a rule i avoid discussing topics about which i have no clue. But in this case of Naatya Shastra and BN it was my belief that you were underplaying the role of Naatya Shastra in BN because it was a kashmiri (i.e. north indian) text. You mentioned earlier that the relationship of Naatya Shastra and BN should be compared to that of ancient Greek thinkers and modern physicists. Subsequently you claimed the views of a practitioner of the BN dance and should be sought and they should be asked whether they consider the Naatya Shastra an authoritative text. When i gave a direct quote of Shobhana on the Naatya Shastra, you decided discretion to be the better part of valor and steered well away from my post.

With respect to BN and Naatya Shastra, i consider myself to be like Alberuni. Since i have no biases i can better identify and appreciate the relationship of Naatya Shastra with BN.

Just answer Yes/No to his question.

I bet you never took multiple choice questions....as they do in the US....

No wonder.......you could not....complete.....

max, u started this by asking the q.

Vidya Bagchi wrote:max, u started this by asking the q.

the question i asked him was not about the BN discussion specifically but about his habit of shooting his mouth off (or fingers off) on topics he seems clueless about in general. he changed it back to the BN discussion.

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
questions to rashmun:

1) is there ever a point in any discussion when you say to yourself, "it seems like i have no clue about this and the person talking to me seems to have spent quite a bit of time immersing themselves in this subject. maybe their informed perspective is deeper than my random internet searches and i am better off taking some time finding out more about this stuff than doing the cut-paste-post routine"?

2) if not, why not?

Max, it is my belief that your bias with respect to the Naatya Shastra was revealed to yourself by me and you have learnt to now appreciate the kashmiri text better. I have read online articles on BN, Naatya Shastra, etc., but i have also personally attended BN performances and recitals. As a rule i avoid discussing topics about which i have no clue. But in this case of Naatya Shastra and BN it was my belief that you were underplaying the role of Naatya Shastra in BN because it was a kashmiri (i.e. north indian) text. You mentioned earlier that the relationship of Naatya Shastra and BN should be compared to that of ancient Greek thinkers and modern physicists. Subsequently you claimed the views of a practitioner of the BN dance and should be sought and they should be asked whether they consider the Naatya Shastra an authoritative text. When i gave a direct quote of Shobhana on the Naatya Shastra, you decided discretion to be the better part of valor and steered well away from my post.

With respect to BN and Naatya Shastra, i consider myself to be like Alberuni. Since i have no biases i can better identify and appreciate the relationship of Naatya Shastra with BN.

Just answer Yes/No to his question.

I bet you never took multiple choice questions....as they do in the US....

No wonder.......you could not....complete.....

His questions are not yes/no questions. Read the second question again in particular.

i was talking recently to someone deeply schooled in the pandanallur style of BN which gave rise to the kalakshetra style, about some earlier discussions we were having on natyashastra (NS) and its influence on BN. this is a very senior person who has trained many artistes who have gone on to become celebrated performers.  her opinion is that the NS has certainly influenced all indian dance forms including BN. in BN specifically the hastas (or hand gestures) are from the NS, so also rasa (emotion) theory.  

but one central, unique, and in fact defining feature of BN is the concept of adavus which are the basic rhythmic structural elements of BN. these are the building blocks from which more complex movements are built. they find no mention at all in the NS! in fact the word adavu is a variant of the thamizh word aLavu, which means measure, as in time measure.

if someone is curious about what this is, this video provides a short summary. these are some of the very preliminary lessons that a dancer learns.