Bwahaha..Baba Ramdev was caught running away...

...disguised as a woman, dressed in a white salwar kameez, hiding his bearded visage behind a dupatta!



Here's a fairly sensible summary of the Baba Ramdev farce playing out these last few days.

....it was an open show of strength of one man’s hold over his followers or fans with hitchhikers joining in. The fact that a cross-section of religious and community leaders joined Ramdev on his stage on Saturday speaks volumes about how a big-enough buzz can be all that it takes for people — the media and the government included — to fall for a brand-building exercise pretending to be a ‘satyagraha’.

But if brand-building was the only ‘crime’ Ramdev was committing, it wouldn’t have merited showing him the firm hand of the law. The problem, to put it bluntly, was the man leading everyone up the garden path — a charge, ironically, that the government is usually seen guilty of.

The episode was a comic farce.

The government and Ramdev holding talks at a Delhi hotel; Ramdev not agreeing to call off his ‘fast-unto-death’ despite the two parties coming to an agreement; the government making public Ramdev’s commitment to call off the fast even as the latter continued his show at the Ramlila Maidan... And what was Ramdev’s explanation for not making his earlier ‘understanding’ with the government public?

“If I had revealed it and if the people left this place [Ramlila Ground] and if the government went back on its word, then what would have happened?” That’s a hell of a lot of ‘ifs’ to base an ‘explanation’ on.

As feared, however, it’s those hitching a ride on Ramdev’s many-many-trick pony who are the bigger concern. The BJP, not a novice in whipping up atavistic feelings when it needs to charge its batteries, has already latched on to the action taken by the authorities against the wild card Baba-ji.

It’s bad enough that the party that refused to have any say in the drafting of the Lokpal Bill is now taking the cheap way out by suddenly coming to Ramdev’s defence.

What is worse is BJP veteran LK Advani comparing the expulsion of Ramdev and his cohorts from Delhi with the dark days of Emergency.

Party president Nitin Gadkari’s comparison of Saturday night’s operation with the Jallianwala Bagh massacre is downright offensive and an insult to the innocents who were gunned down by imperial British forces in 1919...

Latest joke: His new CH-style nickname Bibi Ramdev

What is so funny about this episode? Why did the government use force against a peaceful anti-corruption protest? To me, this is a free speech issue. Ramdev is a fool, but there is no law against being a fool. What was the legal basis for government action? Why the police brutality?

As for the article, it is high on good English and low on logic substance.

Hindustan Times editor wrote:
But if brand-building was the only ‘crime’ Ramdev was committing, it
wouldn’t have merited showing him the firm hand of the law.

So far so good.

But in the next sentence...

Hindustan Times editor wrote:
The problem, to put it bluntly, was the man leading everyone up the garden path

The man is the problem. What kind of a problem is he? And how is "leading everyone up the garden path" a crime? If it is a crime, he ought to be charged, tried and convicted before being punished. How exactly does any of this suddenly merit "showing him the firm hand of the law?" How does it merit lathi-charging his supporters in the dead of the night?

This editorial is far from sensible. It is a sorry attempt at making excuses for government authoritarianism. And the excuses don't even hang together.

charvaka wrote:What is so funny about this episode? Why did the government use force against a peaceful anti-corruption protest? To me, this is a free speech issue. Ramdev is a fool, but there is no law against being a fool. What was the legal basis for government action? Why the police brutality?

Permission had been given to Ramdev to conduct Yoga training in the Ram Lila ground in Delhi. Instead of teaching yoga, Ramdev started doing political propaganda. He did not teach any yoga whatsoever. Moreover, permission had been given to Ramdev for around 5,000 people to attend this yoga training. Instead of 5,000 people more than 50,000 people collected in the Ram Lila ground. It had clearly become a political rally with apparently the full covert support of some of the opposition parties.

Ramdev is free to conduct political rallies, but not at the Ram Lila ground where permission had only been given to him to teach yoga.

When did India become a country where people could not gather for political activity without prior written permission from the government? Last I checked, we are a democracy with a constitution that guarantees the fundamental right to political speech.

charvaka wrote:When did India become a country where people could not gather for political activity without prior written permission from the government? Last I checked, we are a democracy with a constitution that guarantees the fundamental right to political speech.

But isn't it deceiptful to take permission for teaching Yoga (and only Yoga) at the Ram Lila ground in Delhi, and then instead of teaching yoga going forth and indulging in political activity? Two rules were violated:

1. Instead of teaching yoga at that particular venue, for which permission had been sought and given, political propaganda was waged.

2. Permission had been sought and given for 5,000 people to attend the yoga session. Instead, more than 50,000 people had collected.

Do you believe in the rule of law or are you more comfortable with anarchy and chaos?

Rashmun wrote:Do you believe in the rule of law or are you more comfortable with anarchy and chaos?

This is a false choice. The government does not need to lathi-charge people in the middle of the night if the problem is with improper permitting of a public space.

Do you genuinely believe a midnight lathi-charge is the correct way to deal with a permit violation?

charvaka wrote:

Rashmun wrote:Do you believe in the rule of law or are you more comfortable with anarchy and chaos?

This is a false choice. The government does not need to lathi-charge people in the middle of the night if the problem is with improper permitting of a public space.

Do you genuinely believe a midnight lathi-charge is the correct way to deal with a permit violation?

i would imagine that it would be easier to disperse a large number of people who had collected at a venue illegally while they were sleeping since they would be less prone to getting violent. As i understand most of Ramdev's followers were asleep when the police came in.

I agree that some of Ramdev's followers got injured and this is regrettable.

Rashmun wrote:disperse a large number of people

The government doesn't bother to move people from its own buildings that they occupy long after they finish their tenures as MPs and Ministers. And it is suddenly all important to disperse the crowd at Ramlila grounds. Why?

charvaka wrote:

Rashmun wrote:disperse a large number of people

The government doesn't bother to move people from its own buildings that they occupy long after they finish their tenures as MPs and Ministers. And it is suddenly all important to disperse the crowd at Ramlila grounds. Why?

1. this is a good point. of course, this applies to all governments whether a bjp government or congress govt.

2. with respect to ramdev and his followers, more than 50,000 people had collected at the Ram Lila ground in what became a political rally (even though permission had been sought and given for 5,000 people to attend a yoga training session). it became very clear in fact that Ramdev was having the full covert support of some political parties. after all, the govt. had accepted ALL his demands and had obtained a written assurance from him that he would give up his fast and put and end to his political rally by 4 p.m.. but he went back on his word and started making fresh demands. why so? could it be that his political masters asked him to continue his rally?

3. ramdev was encouraging and inciting his gullible followers (who believe his tall claims of curing cancer, etc.) from all over india to come to his political rally. what would have happened if this was allowed to happen? the people of delhi would have no doubt suffered since there would have been traffic problems and disturbances and agitations and ordinary life would have been hampered. ramdev's followers would have interfered with the functioning of the people of delhi who just wish to go about doing their work.

4. the govt went out of its way to mollify this crook by accepting all his demands and having senior union ministers meet him in person but when he continued making fresh demands then they packed him off to Hardwar--something they should have done much earlier.

Rashmun wrote:1. this is a good point. of course, this applies to all governments whether a bjp government or congress govt.

Yes. The fact that the Congress government is using this excuse to disperse a political protest exposes its hypocrisy.

Rashmun wrote:a written assurance from him that he would give up his fast and put and end to his political rally by 4 p.m.. but he went back on his word and started making fresh demands. why so? could it be that his political masters asked him to continue his rally?

All of this is political negotiations between Ramdev and Congress. That does not form a credible rationale for police action.

Rashmun wrote:3. ramdev was encouraging and inciting his gullible followers (who believe his tall claims of curing cancer, etc.) from all over india to come to his political rally.

That is perfectly legal in a democracy, if done peacefully. It does not amount to inciting.

Rashmun wrote:what would have happened if this was allowed to happen? the people of delhi would have no doubt suffered since there would have been traffic problems and disturbances and agitations and ordinary life would have been hampered. ramdev's followers would have interfered with the functioning of the people of delhi who just wish to go about doing their work.

This is ridiculous. The people of Delhi live in the capital, where protests are the order of the day. With your "logic," you can argue that all forms of political protest should be strictly regulated by the government in the interest of traffic flow. But that is the Chinese dictatorial system, not the Indian democratic system!

Rashmun wrote:4. the govt went out of its way to mollify this crook by accepting all his demands and having senior union ministers meet him in person

Again, that is political negotiation. Not grounds for a lathi-charge.

Rashmun wrote:but when he continued making fresh demands then they packed him off to Hardwar--something they should have done much earlier.

In a democracy, government has no right to decide who to "pack off" where and when. It happens in China, but it ought not to happen in India.

charvaka wrote:

Rashmun wrote:1. this is a good point. of course, this applies to all governments whether a bjp government or congress govt.

Yes. The fact that the Congress government is using this excuse to disperse a political protest exposes its hypocrisy.

--> nothing like that. Ex-ministers occupying VIP bungalows belong to all parties and they do not interefere with law and order. they do not go about inciting people.

Rashmun wrote:a written assurance from him that he would give up his fast and put and end to his political rally by 4 p.m.. but he went back on his word and started making fresh demands. why so? could it be that his political masters asked him to continue his rally?

All of this is political negotiations between Ramdev and Congress. That does not form a credible rationale for police action.

--> it does expose Ramdev as a fraud. After all, he gave a written assurance to the govt. that he would end his fast and the political rally after the govt. accepted ALL his demands. but then he went back on his word, continued his rally, and started making fresh demands.

Rashmun wrote:3. ramdev was encouraging and inciting his gullible followers (who believe his tall claims of curing cancer, etc.) from all over india to come to his political rally.

That is perfectly legal in a democracy, if done peacefully. It does not amount to inciting.

--> but remember, he had only taken permission for 5,000 people to attend his yoga training session at the Ram Lila ground. The fact that more than 50,000 people had collected at that venue and he was encouraging others to collect at that venue was against the law.

Rashmun wrote:what would have happened if this was allowed to happen? the people of delhi would have no doubt suffered since there would have been traffic problems and disturbances and agitations and ordinary life would have been hampered. ramdev's followers would have interfered with the functioning of the people of delhi who just wish to go about doing their work.

This is ridiculous. The people of Delhi live in the capital, where protests are the order of the day. With your "logic," you can argue that all forms of political protest should be strictly regulated by the government in the interest of traffic flow. But that is the Chinese dictatorial system, not the Indian democratic system!

Rashmun wrote:4. the govt went out of its way to mollify this crook by accepting all his demands and having senior union ministers meet him in person

Again, that is political negotiation. Not grounds for a lathi-charge.

Rashmun wrote:but when he continued making fresh demands then they packed him off to Hardwar--something they should have done much earlier.

In a democracy, government has no right to decide who to "pack off" where and when. It happens in China, but it ought not to happen in India.

--> As far as i am concerned, no repeat of the December 6, 1992 incident can ever be allowed to take place in India. Even if it means packing off a few thugs to where they come from.

Rashmun wrote:--> but remember, he had only taken permission for 5,000 people to attend his yoga training session at the Ram Lila ground. The fact that more than 50,000 people had collected at that venue and he was encouraging others to collect at that venue was against the law.

If Ramdev broke the law, the proper course would have been to arrest him and prosecute him for violating the permit that was granted to him. Again, why the lathi-charge?

Rashmun wrote:--> As far as i am concerned, no repeat of the December 6, 1992 incident can ever be allowed to take place in India.

That is far fetched. Did Ramdev incite people to tear down a mosque? Did he incite people against Muslims or Christians or other minorities?

Rashmun wrote:Even if it means packing off a few thugs to where they come from.

That sounds a lot like the excuses offered for things like the Emergency. I certainly don't want a government that "packs people off" judging them as thugs. Did a court convict Ramdev of being a thug? Did the government even file a formal charge against him before they sent in the police to brutalize the crowd?

Political rallies regularly draw a much larger crowd than they are registered for. Ramdev's followers were peaceful folks. Police will never try to disperse a 50000 strong political crowd with tear gas and lathi charge. They tried it on this crowd because they were sure it is peaceful and will not retaliate.

artood2 wrote:Political rallies regularly draw a much larger crowd than they are registered for.

Indeed. I dislike Ramdev for his stupid claims. But the excuses the government (and Rashmun) is offering for its action are just plain nonsense. I don't care for Ramdev's opinions, but he has a right to organize and speak freely in public. The government is way out of line in trying to shut him up and "pack him off."

charvaka wrote:

Rashmun wrote:--> but remember, he had only taken permission for 5,000 people to attend his yoga training session at the Ram Lila ground. The fact that more than 50,000 people had collected at that venue and he was encouraging others to collect at that venue was against the law.

If Ramdev broke the law, the proper course would have been to arrest him and prosecute him for violating the permit that was granted to him. Again, why the lathi-charge?

--> i am guessing the police asked people to leave and when people did not leave peacefully they were forcibly evicted from the Ram Lila ground.

--> There is nothing wrong in the forcible eviction in my opinion because of the two violations Ramdev and his chelas had made:
1. permission had been given for a yoga training session and not a political rally at that venue (Ram Lila ground).
2. permission had been given for only 5,000 people to attend that yoga training session whereas more than 50,000 people had collected.

Rashmun wrote:--> As far as i am concerned, no repeat of the December 6, 1992 incident can ever be allowed to take place in India.

That is far fetched. Did Ramdev incite people to tear down a mosque? Did he incite people against Muslims or Christians or other minorities?

--> Some of the people sharing the stage with Ramdev in his political rally had played a pivotal role in the December 6, 1992 incident with their hate speeches. For instance, Sadhvi Ritambhara.

Rashmun wrote:Even if it means packing off a few thugs to where they come from.

That sounds a lot like the excuses offered for things like the Emergency. I certainly don't want a government that "packs people off" judging them as thugs. Did a court convict Ramdev of being a thug? Did the government even file a formal charge against him before they sent in the police to brutalize the crowd?

--> is it true or not true that Ramdev learnt yoga from a guru in an ashram and then subsequently kicked that guru out of the ashram and took over charge of that ashram. and that is how he started his career. that is the allegation that digvijay singh has made publicly against ramdev and i do not believe he would have made this allegation if there was no substance to it. after all, digvijay identifies the ashram which Ramdev had 'captured' and also names the guru who was kicked out of that ashram by Ramdev after Ramdev had learnt yoga from him. if this allegation has any substance to it, as i think it does (otherwise Digvijay would not have gone into specifics), then Ramdev is a crook, a fraud, and a thug.

--> also, is it true or not that Ramdev's right hand man Balakrishnan is a Nepali who is said to have carried out criminal activities in Nepal?

Carvaka, i think there is some bug in this site as well.

artood2 wrote:Political rallies regularly draw a much larger crowd than they are registered for. Ramdev's followers were peaceful folks. Police will never try to disperse a 50000 strong political crowd with tear gas and lathi charge. They tried it on this crowd because they were sure it is peaceful and will not retaliate.

but this was not a political rally. permisson had been sought and given for a yoga training session.

it is also true that ramdev forces his followers to drink urine as part of therapy and attempts to take temperature of his female patients the "fun" way. I heard this from recycledsoul, who wouldnt make false accusations without merit. both are true claims and hence he needs to be forcibly evacuated.

Rashmun wrote:

--> is it true or not true that Ramdev learnt yoga from a guru in an ashram and then subsequently kicked that guru out of the ashram and took over charge of that ashram. and that is how he started his career. that is the allegation that digvijay singh has made publicly against ramdev and i do not believe he would have made this allegation if there was no substance to it. after all, digvijay identifies the ashram which Ramdev had 'captured' and also names the guru who was kicked out of that ashram by Ramdev after Ramdev had learnt yoga from him. if this allegation has any substance to it, as i think it does (otherwise Digvijay would not have gone into specifics), then Ramdev is a crook, a fraud, and a thug.

--> also, is it true or not that Ramdev's right hand man Balakrishnan is a Nepali who is said to have carried out criminal activities in Nepal?

what does this have to do with the lathi charge and forcibly evacuating him at the midnight hour.

Propagandhi711 wrote:it is also true that ramdev forces his followers to drink urine as part of therapy and attempts to take temperature of his female patients the "fun" way. I heard this from recycledsoul, who wouldnt make false accusations without merit. both are true claims and hence he needs to be forcibly evacuated.

LMAO..

PS: Why doesn't RS join this new forum? Is he a frenemy of the Bash Brothers or AKKA brigage..

doofus_maximus wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

--> is it true or not true that Ramdev learnt yoga from a guru in an ashram and then subsequently kicked that guru out of the ashram and took over charge of that ashram. and that is how he started his career. that is the allegation that digvijay singh has made publicly against ramdev and i do not believe he would have made this allegation if there was no substance to it. after all, digvijay identifies the ashram which Ramdev had 'captured' and also names the guru who was kicked out of that ashram by Ramdev after Ramdev had learnt yoga from him. if this allegation has any substance to it, as i think it does (otherwise Digvijay would not have gone into specifics), then Ramdev is a crook, a fraud, and a thug.

--> also, is it true or not that Ramdev's right hand man Balakrishnan is a Nepali who is said to have carried out criminal activities in Nepal?

what does this have to do with the lathi charge and forcibly evacuating him at the midnight hour.

--> nothing. i am only questioning Ramdev's credentials and asserting that if the allegations against him are true (as i think they are because they are very specific with both the name of the ashram he usurped and the guru he kicked out being made public) then he deserves to be called a thug and a fraud.

Rashmun wrote:--> i am guessing the police asked people to leave and when people did not leave peacefully they were forcibly evicted from the Ram Lila ground.

There was no need for forcible eviction. Most political rallies in India break the rules in one way or another. If this incident is applied as a standard, political speech would be severely restricted. That is something even the British did not manage to do.

Rashmun wrote:
--> There is nothing wrong in the forcible eviction in my opinion because of the two violations Ramdev and his chelas had made:

Really? Again, if Ramdev violated the law, prosecute him. Don't beat his followers with lathis. Simple enough, really.

Rashmun wrote:--> Some of the people sharing the stage with Ramdev in his political rally had played a pivotal role in the December 6, 1992 incident with their hate speeches. For instance, Sadhvi Ritambhara.

That is guilt by association, and it does not work. Should the police lathi-charge any crowed where this Sadhvi is on stage? Unless one or more of the speeches at the gathering incited people against Muslims or asked people tear down a mosque, your reference to 6/12/92 is unnecessary and a red herring.

Rashmun wrote:--> is it true or not true that Ramdev learnt yoga from a guru in an ashram and then subsequently kicked that guru out of the ashram and took over charge of that ashram.

Doesn't matter. The government is in the dock now, with its "overreaction much" against a peaceful protest.

Rashmun wrote:--> also, is it true or not that Ramdev's right hand man Balakrishnan is a Nepali who is said to have carried out criminal activities in Nepal?

All of this mudslinging might work to silence Ramdev's followers. It is ineffective against advocates of free speech like myself who have no respect for Ramdev's opinions, but are 100% behind his right to organize and protest peacefully.

LOL why was he wearing a chudidaar ))) and why did he run..so stupid. he wud ve become more mahan/popular had he gone to the jail lol

he is very hyper and aggressive. he needs to calm down a little. ok maybe a lot. b4 he can do some good to our country.

Rashmun wrote:--> if the allegations against him are true ... then he deserves to be called a thug and a fraud.

Let's say they are true. So what? What the government did is still very wrong. You don't lathi-charge a crowd just because their leader is a thug. Otherwise, every rally attended by Laloo Yadav and the YSR family ought to be lathi-charged.

It is sad that you see fit to argue for the suppression of fundamental rights in India, just because the guy whose rights are trampled on is someone you disagree with. I disagree with him too, but I think the government has totally overreached in this case, and needs to be held to account.

charvaka wrote:

Rashmun wrote:--> if the allegations against him are true ... then he deserves to be called a thug and a fraud.

Let's say they are true. So what? What the government did is still very wrong. You don't lathi-charge a crowd just because their leader is a thug. Otherwise, every rally attended by Laloo Yadav and the YSR family ought to be lathi-charged.

It is sad that you see fit to argue for the suppression of fundamental rights in India, just because the guy whose rights are trampled on is someone you disagree with. I disagree with him too, but I think the government has totally overreached in this case, and needs to be held to account.

i object to the deceipt and subterfuge being practiced by Ramdev. it is so obvious that Ramdev has become a front man for some of the opposition parties including the BJP. his agenda is anti-corruption. but the bjp states themselves have massive allegations of corruption themselves. for instance, the reddy brothers in karnataka. the opposition parties wish to destabilize the govt. and of course they are free to do so. but getting a religious/spiritual figure to become their front man is not healthy for democracy in my opinion.

This wretched baba who has a fan following based on his yoga and religious teachings and his tall claims of being able to cure serious diseases like cancer wants to mix at some level spirituality and religion with politics to which i object to. it was because of mixing religion and politics that our country got divided.

Also, if permission had been sought and given for teaching yoga why was it that no yoga was taught and what was Sadhvi Ritambhara--known for her hate filled speeches--doing on the stage with him?

The permit for holding this rally had been obtained through deceipt and subterfuge by claiming that it was only a yoga training session that would be conducted with only 5,000 people. The administration had the full right to disperse the people when in fact it was not a yoga session but a political rally being attended by more than 50,000 people. it is reasonable to conclude also that a fair number of these people would be workers belonging to various opposition parties who had collected to bolster the number of Ramdev's followers

The govt. had agreed to ALL of Ramdev's demands and senior union ministers had met him. When he started making fresh demands, presumably under orders from his political masters, the govt decided to get tough with him. The govt. should not be blamed for police excesses while dispersing the crowd which had gathered. It is also possible that Ramdev's followers or opposition party workers who had collected at that venue attacked some of the police men and women who were trying to disperse the crowd and the police reacted to this subsequently as a kind of spontaneous reaction.

It is not illegal to be a frontman for a political party. It is perfectly legitimate in a democracy. None -- not one -- of the accusations you are making against Ramdev merits what the government did to his followers. None of the mudslinging you are doing has any relevance to the matter of police brutality against a peaceful crowd.

Rashmun wrote:The govt. should not be blamed for police excesses while dispersing the crowd which had gathered.

This is pathetic. The government sent in the police at midnight to disperse a peaceful crowd. And you think they should not be blamed!

Rashmun wrote:It is also possible that Ramdev's followers or opposition party workers
who had collected at that venue attacked some of the police men and
women who were trying to disperse the crowd and the police reacted to
this subsequently as a kind of spontaneous reaction.

Lots of things are possible. It is shameful to offer such excuses for police brutality, though. Particularly when the police themselves haven't offered those excuses. Mubarak's cronies argued that the horsemen he sent into Tahrir Square were attacked and they reacted spontaneously. The burden of proof with violence towards a peaceful assembly at the midnight hour rests with the police. You are defending the indefensible -- Ramdev is an clownish fool, but the government made a stupid move that grossly violated the rights of the people.

Rashmun wrote:Carvaka, i think there is some bug in this site as well.

I think the problem is with the quote tag... it should be closed at the right place for it to work correctly.

For instance, if you want to respond to three separate points I made, this is how your response should look, with three separate opening and closing quote tags.

Code:

[quote="carvaka"]carvaka's comment 1[/quote]
Rashmun's response 1
[quote="carvaka"]carvaka's comment 2[/quote]
Rashmun's response 2
[quote="carvaka"]carvaka's comment 3[/quote]
Rashmun's response 3

---

This will be rendered as:

carvaka wrote:carvaka's comment 1

Rashmun's response 1

carvaka wrote:carvaka's comment 2

Rashmun's response 2

carvaka wrote:carvaka's comment 3

Rashmun's response 3

---

Now, if want to respond to each of your three responses, my response ought to look like this:

Code:

[quote="Rashmun"]
[quote="carvaka"]carvaka's comment 1[/quote]
Rashmun's response 1
[/quote]
carvaka's counterresponse 1
[quote="Rashmun"]
[quote="carvaka"]carvaka's comment 2[/quote]

Rashmun's response 2
[/quote]
carvaka's counterresponse 2
[quote="Rashmun"]
[quote="carvaka"]carvaka's comment 3[/quote]

Rashmun's response 3
[/quote]
carvaka's counterresponse 3


---

This would be rendered as:

Rashmun wrote:

carvaka wrote:carvaka's comment 1

Rashmun's response 1

carvaka's counterresponse 1

Rashmun wrote:

carvaka wrote:carvaka's comment 2

Rashmun's response 2

carvaka's counterresponse 2

Rashmun wrote:

carvaka wrote:carvaka's comment 3

Rashmun's response 3

carvaka's counterresponse 3

---

Hope that helps.

charvaka wrote:

artood2 wrote:Political rallies regularly draw a much larger crowd than they are registered for.

Indeed. I dislike Ramdev for his stupid claims. But the excuses the government (and Rashmun) is offering for its action are just plain nonsense. I don't care for Ramdev's opinions, but he has a right to organize and speak freely in public. The government is way out of line in trying to shut him up and "pack him off."

Yes, it is the question fo separating the person and the rights. Peaceful demonstration is a civil right and one should not be lathicharged because you just went to a peaceful rally. Once you start justifying executive action based on personal hatred, the civil rights start taking a toll and you see police officers killing young boys in the name of encounters.

charvaka wrote:When did India become a country where people could not gather for political activity without prior written permission from the government? Last I checked, we are a democracy with a constitution that guarantees the fundamental right to political speech.

In any civilized country, democrtic or not, even in the bastion of free speech - the US, you need prior permission from local authorities before you gather thousands of people in one location to launch a political protest. It is a simple law and order issue since a gathering of that scale always carries the potential of violence. That threat impinges on other people's fundamental right to existence and property. The right to free speech doesn't trump those even more fundamental rights. Unbridled mass protests of the type you are advocating take place only in societies where civil law and administration have entirely broken down - such as Egypt, Libya etc. Hopefully, it'll never come to that.

charvaka wrote:What is so funny about this episode? Why did the government use force against a peaceful anti-corruption protest? To me, this is a free speech issue. Ramdev is a fool, but there is no law against being a fool. What was the legal basis for government action? Why the police brutality?

It's entirely ok if you don't find humor in a bearded "leader" slinking away from the cops dressed up as a woman. Different strokes for different folks. I certainly found it very funny that this anti-gay crusader for high morals in public life should evade police custody in this utterly unmanly fashion. What was the need to evade arrest in the first place like a common criminal?

Bibi Ramdev misrepresented the purpose of the gathering, portraying it as a yoga camp to get permission and then, after gathering some 10,000 people at one location, launched a political protest. This irresponsible behavior put the lives of those people and others around that location under risk. Just stone-pelting by a handful of mischief-mongers - leave alone any greater violence - could have triggered a mass stampede resulting in the deaths of dozens of innocent people.

Breaking up this illegal gathering was a right call to take, particularly after that joker signed up for an exit plan and then reneged, proving that he could not be trusted to defuse the crisis. Sending in the cops in the middle of the night ensured minimal use of force. Any other time would have led to a worse outcome.

Is there any history of this guy provoking people to create trouble? Do the political leaders who go to any functions (religious or civil) stay away from political speech? Are they apprehended for misue of permit? Why is renegation on an exit plan a crime? 10000 people land up outside the home of Bal Thackeray or Sonia Gandhi even if they sneeze. There is nothing to suggest that the gathering was mischievious. There are plenty of weapons in a political gathering. Laloo' gareeb rallies, Mamta/CPM's Bridage marches, Thackeray's rabble rousing routinely gathered more than 500000 and passed of uneventful in the presence of a relatively miniscule police force. If the mere thought of a couple of stone throwers would cause a stampede, there will be one on Churchgate or VT railway station every day where more than 10000 people are present on the platforms. Why the lathicharge or teargas? Would the government have dared gas a BJP gathering? They would never do that as they know there will be retaliation else where and buses would start burning on the street. They used force on a crowd becasue they knew it was a peaceful gathering.

Sir, you should take a deep breath and stop hyperventilating. Of all your questions I can only say why the lathicharge and teargas. 600 cops trying to disperse a crowd of 10,000+ who were resisting the eviction..what did you realistically expect them to do? Sing them lullabies and hand out lollipops?

I've no idea how Laloo, Mamta, Sonia or Bal Thackeray are relevant to this discussion, but since you are in your questioning mode, why don't you also ask why Bibi Ramdev did not launch a legitimate political protest like Anna Hazare choosing instead to misrepresent the reason for gathering 10,000+ people in one place? Is that how someone fighting for probity in public life behaves? If he can fast like a Gandhi, why didn't he also let the police take him away peacefully, just like Gandhi used to? Why did he use his followers as human shields, inciting them to form cordons around him and to stop the cops? Why did he evade arrest like a common criminal, fleeing from the cops dressed up as a woman?

Merlot Daruwala wrote:In any civilized country, democrtic or not, even in the bastion of free speech - the US, you need prior permission from local authorities before you gather thousands of people in one location to launch a political protest. It is a simple law and order issue since a gathering of that scale always carries the potential of violence. That threat impinges on other people's fundamental right to existence and property. The right to free speech doesn't trump those even more fundamental rights. Unbridled mass protests of the type you are advocating take place only in societies where civil law and administration have entirely broken down - such as Egypt, Libya etc. Hopefully, it'll never come to that.

The question is how the state deals with a crowd that has gathered without prior permission for a political rally. Midnight lathi-charge is one option, but I don't think that's how democracies deal with peaceful protestors.

Merlot Daruwala wrote:Different strokes for different folks.

Sure, to me, laughing at the victims of police brutality seems a tad callous and supportive of authoritarian government responses. It is fine if you don't see it that way.

Merlot Daruwala wrote:Bibi Ramdev misrepresented the purpose of the gathering, portraying it as a yoga camp to get permission and then, after gathering some 10,000 people at one location, launched a political protest. This irresponsible behavior put the lives of those people and others around that location under risk. Just stone-pelting by a handful of mischief-mongers - leave alone any greater violence - could have triggered a mass stampede resulting in the deaths of dozens of innocent people.

By this logic, any political rally has the potential to result in violence, and ought to be broken up with violent force.

Merlot Daruwala wrote:Breaking up this illegal gathering was a right call to take

Government has to judge the risks involved and act sensibly. This government horribly misjudged the risks and benefits in this case, and that is why people who can't stand Ramdev are supporting his right to protest. That is why even the Congress party and Madame Gandhi have distanced themselves from this midnight lathi-charge. Perhaps it is time you acknowledged that. You don't need to defend what the perpetrators of the action have stopped defending.

Merlot Daruwala wrote:600 cops trying to disperse a crowd of 10,000+ who were resisting the eviction..what did you realistically expect them to do? Sing them lullabies and hand out lollipops?

I would have expected their political bosses to order the police to stay back and deploy around the area, just in case any violence broke out. I wouldn't have ordered them to "clear the area no matter what" -- which is how the police acted.

Merlot Daruwala wrote:I've no idea how Laloo, Mamta, Sonia or Bal Thackeray are relevant to this discussion

They are. It is a question of common government practice with respect to political gatherings. Governments do not resort to lathi-charges and teargas with political gatherings, if the permit is not 100% complied with. It is the uncommon violence in this case, and the haste and stealth with which the government acted, that likely prompted the Supreme Court to ask the government to explain the brutality meted out to the crowd.

charvaka wrote:

Merlot Daruwala wrote:Different strokes for different folks.

Sure, to me, laughing at the victims of police brutality seems a tad callous and supportive of authoritarian government responses. It is fine if you don't see it that way.

Merlot Daruwala wrote:Bibi Ramdev misrepresented the purpose of the gathering, portraying it as a yoga camp to get permission and then, after gathering some 10,000 people at one location, launched a political protest. This irresponsible behavior put the lives of those people and others around that location under risk. Just stone-pelting by a handful of mischief-mongers - leave alone any greater violence - could have triggered a mass stampede resulting in the deaths of dozens of innocent people.

By this logic, any political rally has the potential to result in violence, and ought to be broken up with violent force.

Merlot Daruwala wrote:Breaking up this illegal gathering was a right call to take

Government has to judge the risks involved and act sensibly. This government horribly misjudged the risks and benefits in this case, and that is why people who can't stand Ramdev are supporting his right to protest. That is why even the Congress party and Madame Gandhi have distanced themselves from this midnight lathi-charge. Perhaps it is time you acknowledged that. You don't need to defend what the perpetrators of the action have stopped defending.

1. Ramdev takes permission to hold a yoga training session at Ram Lila ground in Delhi. Ram Lila ground is NOT designated as a venue for holding political rallys under the rule of law. The designated place for holding political rallys in Delhi is the Jantar Mantar. Nobody can just go around the capital of India wherever they want holding political rallys and disrupting civilian life.

2. An attempt is made to mollify Ramdev. All his demands are accepted. Ramdev gives a written assurance that he will bring his illegal rally to an end. Then he goes back on his word and continues his rally and starts making fresh demands.

3. When the cops go to arrest Ramdev instead of courting arrest he jumps off the dias, runs towards his female followers and surrounds himself by these women. The cops then use force to get to Ramdev and they also disperse the illegally convened rally.

4. Instead of congratulating the govt. on taking the right approach in dealing with this crisis which was threatening to go out of control, Carvaka comes along and starts defending Ramdev.

5. Carvaka turns a blind eye to the fact that this was an illegally convened rally since the venue chosen by Ramdev is not designated for political rallys under the rule of law. Indeed Ramdev had taken permission for holding a yoga training session and not a political rally at this venue from the authorities.

6. Carvaka also keeps harping about police brutalities while forgetting that nobody would have gotten injured if Ramdev would have courted arrest peacefully and asked his followers to disperse from the illegally convened rally at a venue where holding political rallys is against the rule of law.

Rashmun wrote:Instead of congratulating the govt. on taking the right approach in dealing with this crisis which was threatening to go out of control

Forget about me... do you see Congress congratulating the government on taking the right approach? Your source for all reliable information on the matter -- Digvijayji -- doesn't think so:

IBN at http://ibnlive.in.com/news/sonia-distances-herself-from-ramdev-swoop/157229-37-64.html wrote:"Please ask the Government about the operation, it was their decision," said senior Congress leader Digvijaya Singh.

Why do you think Congress has distanced itself from this action instead of celebrating / congratulating itself?

Rashmun wrote:Carvaka comes along and starts defending Ramdev.

Ah, the tired old tactic of confusing issues. I have been upfront from the start of this debate that my issue is with the government, and that I have no truck with Ramdev. I haven't supported the stupid Baba at all.

charvaka wrote:

Rashmun wrote:Instead of congratulating the govt. on taking the right approach in dealing with this crisis which was threatening to go out of control

Forget about me... do you see Congress congratulating the government on taking the right approach? Your source for all reliable information on the matter -- Digvijayji -- doesn't think so:

IBN at http://ibnlive.in.com/news/sonia-distances-herself-from-ramdev-swoop/157229-37-64.html wrote:"Please ask the Government about the operation, it was their decision," said senior Congress leader Digvijaya Singh.

Why do you think Congress has distanced itself from this action instead of celebrating / congratulating itself?

Rashmun wrote:Carvaka comes along and starts defending Ramdev.

Ah, the tired old tactic of confusing issues. I have been upfront from the start of this debate that my issue is with the government, and that I have no truck with Ramdev. I haven't supported the stupid Baba at all.

The same article whose link you give has union minister Kapil Sibal saying:

However, senior Congress leader Kapil Sibal said that there are no cracks in the Congress on Ramdev and the party is united.

"No differences in the party and the Government. Everybody was united on the issue. In such things of course the party and the Government work in coordination," said Sibal.

Merlot Daruwala wrote:Sir, you should take a deep breath and stop hyperventilating. Of all your questions I can only say why the lathicharge and teargas. 600 cops trying to disperse a crowd of 10,000+ who were resisting the eviction..what did you realistically expect them to do? Sing them lullabies and hand out lollipops?

I've no idea how Laloo, Mamta, Sonia or Bal Thackeray are relevant to this discussion, but since you are in your questioning mode, why don't you also ask why Bibi Ramdev did not launch a legitimate political protest like Anna Hazare choosing instead to misrepresent the reason for gathering 10,000+ people in one place? Is that how someone fighting for probity in public life behaves? If he can fast like a Gandhi, why didn't he also let the police take him away peacefully, just like Gandhi used to? Why did he use his followers as human shields, inciting them to form cordons around him and to stop the cops? Why did he evade arrest like a common criminal, fleeing from the cops dressed up as a woman?

Yes my point in all this is why the lathicharge or tear gas? These are innocent people who have gathered for a peaceful rally. I don't care why/what you do with Ramdev. If there are issues with him , file a case, arrest, prosecute, pray: do whatever you want to do with him. Follow the law. On the other hand, if there were any serious charges against him, why was he let go after being arrested?

Please do not mingle his trying to evade arrest with cops trying to teargas people for no reason. You are struck with Ramdev and are willing to justify state attack on unarmed peaceful folks because of your personal political leanings.

charvaka wrote:

Merlot Daruwala wrote:Different strokes for different folks.

Sure, to me, laughing at the victims of police brutality seems a tad callous and supportive of authoritarian government responses. It is fine if you don't see it that way.

Tsk.Tsk. A low swipe not befitting godly Admin types, sir. If you read what I wrote instead of what you wanted to read, you'd see that my laugh was directed at Bibi Ramdev and his dressy getaway attempt. As for those sheep who follow his orders, and got whacked on their shins, one can only pity them.

charvaka wrote:By this logic, any political rally has the potential to result in violence, and ought to be broken up with violent force.

No, and that is what Rashmunni and I have gone blue in the face repeating. Any political party would not be stupid enough to gather 10,000+ people at Ramlila grounds without prior warning to the administration. Knowing that any untoward incident would be on their heads forever, they give advance notice so the local authorities can be ready with cops, ambulances, doctors etc stationed at the site of their rally. What Bibi Ramdev did was highly irresponsible.

charvaka wrote:That is why even the Congress party and Madame Gandhi have distanced themselves from this midnight lathi-charge. Perhaps it is time you acknowledged that. You don't need to defend what the perpetrators of the action have stopped defending.

Another low swipe that would won approval from Guruvugaaru. I don't know why you believe I have any interest in defending the Congress party. Just because the Congress shows no spine in standing up to the actions taken by its own government does not mean the action itself is wrong. My opinions are not shaped by what the Congress party thinks or says. I still maintain the govt took the right call in dispersing that crowd once it became clear that Bibi R was only escalating matters.

Funny how history repeats itself. Back in the 70s, Indira Gandhi similarly cracked down on extremely violent Sadhus who were protesting cow slaughter or some such issue. And she stood by what she did, despite hysterical breastbeating by the Jan Sangh back then. Pity the junior Mrs Gandhi has none of that courage of conviction.

Merlot Daruwala wrote:

charvaka wrote:

Merlot Daruwala wrote:Different strokes for different folks.

Sure, to me, laughing at the victims of police brutality seems a tad callous and supportive of authoritarian government responses. It is fine if you don't see it that way.

Tsk.Tsk. A low swipe not befitting godly Admin types, sir. If you read what I wrote instead of what you wanted to read, you'd see that my laugh was directed at Bibi Ramdev and his dressy getaway attempt. As for those sheep who follow his orders, and got whacked on their shins, one can only pity them.

charvaka wrote:By this logic, any political rally has the potential to result in violence, and ought to be broken up with violent force.

No, and that is what Rashmunni and I have gone blue in the face repeating. Any political party would not be stupid enough to gather 10,000+ people at Ramlila grounds without prior warning to the administration. Knowing that any untoward incident would be on their heads forever, they give advance notice so the local authorities can be ready with cops, ambulances, doctors etc stationed at the site of their rally. What Bibi Ramdev did was highly irresponsible.

charvaka wrote:That is why even the Congress party and Madame Gandhi have distanced themselves from this midnight lathi-charge. Perhaps it is time you acknowledged that. You don't need to defend what the perpetrators of the action have stopped defending.

Another low swipe that would won approval from Guruvugaaru. I don't know why you believe I have any interest in defending the Congress party. Just because the Congress shows no spine in standing up to the actions taken by its own government does not mean the action itself is wrong. My opinions are not shaped by what the Congress party thinks or says. I still maintain the govt took the right call in dispersing that crowd once it became clear that Bibi R was only escalating matters.

Funny how history repeats itself. Back in the 70s, Indira Gandhi similarly cracked down on extremely violent Sadhus who were protesting cow slaughter or some such issue. And she stood by what she did, despite hysterical breastbeating by the Jan Sangh back then. Pity the junior Mrs Gandhi has none of that courage of conviction.

--> the problem with Sonia is of course her italian origin. Ramdev has lampooned her italian origin on several occasions. if she would say that the action against Ramdev was right, Ramdev (and also leaders of BJP and other parties) would again start harping on her Italian origin.

Merlot Daruwala wrote:

charvaka wrote:

Merlot Daruwala wrote:Different strokes for different folks.

Sure, to me, laughing at the victims of police brutality seems a tad callous and supportive of authoritarian government responses. It is fine if you don't see it that way.

Tsk.Tsk. A low swipe not befitting godly Admin types, sir. If you read what I wrote instead of what you wanted to read, you'd see that my laugh was directed at Bibi Ramdev and his dressy getaway attempt. As for those sheep who follow his orders, and got whacked on their shins, one can only pity them.

this made me laugh. first you tell him to stop hyperventilating, then accuse him of low blows and then take completely OT swipe at his admin powers. inconsistent much?

Propagandhi711 wrote:

Merlot Daruwala wrote:

charvaka wrote:

Merlot Daruwala wrote:Different strokes for different folks.

Sure, to me, laughing at the victims of police brutality seems a tad callous and supportive of authoritarian government responses. It is fine if you don't see it that way.

Tsk.Tsk. A low swipe not befitting godly Admin types, sir. If you read what I wrote instead of what you wanted to read, you'd see that my laugh was directed at Bibi Ramdev and his dressy getaway attempt. As for those sheep who follow his orders, and got whacked on their shins, one can only pity them.

this made me laugh. first you tell him to stop hyperventilating, then accuse him of low blows and then take completely OT swipe at his admin powers. inconsistent much?

What else do you expect from someone trained in the Osama School of Thoughts? Rashmun and Merlot are totally as biased against as the people they accuse routinely: Sandilya, Seva, Uppili.

Merlot Daruwala wrote:

Here's a fairly sensible summary of the Baba Ramdev farce playing out these last few days.

sensible? not. it is a CONartist-fashion-secularist version. i watched his dharna on saturday for the most part of that evening on star news hindi. i was surprised to see how rational and logical ramdev was. he was also amenable to debate and open to negotiations. i switched off my set at midnight and was shocked to see in the morning that he had been arrested (or moved to dehradun). these are the highlights of that evening as i understood them:

- congress was flip-flopping on the issue from the word go. i could sense that they had no clear instruction from 10 janpath except to quickly resolve the issue. they were afraid but had no one person coordinating their actions. the cabinet rushes to the airport. rushes to the hotel. rushes to PIB. and such an ad hoc response predictably led to an unpredictable outcome -- lathi charge and arrest. ramdev, otoh, was a figure of composure in his oratory, posture and compromising nature. the govt. should have engaged him. the govt. should have explained to him why what he was asking for was against the constitution or democracy or laws in force (had that been the case). ramdev never showed that he was closed to reason.

- the govt. had committed to ramdev that they would give him in writing that they would pass an ordinance or commit something of an equal import in writing (ramdev was willing to accept less if there were sound reasons proffered-- he was not adamant). at one point during the dharna, ramdev returned from talking to sibal on phone and declared to the gathering that they had been victorious and that the govt. had agreed to his demands in writing and they would end the fast as soon as the letter arrived. the media went back to sibal with the news. sibal had been giving a press briefing right then. sibal retorted that what was wanted by ramdev in writing was only a clarification on the what the word "committee" meant in the letter (the letter sibal had, unknown to baba, just brandished to the media). sibal also committed to the press that it had already been decided that the clarification, in writing, would be given shortly (like right after the briefing). the press reported it here (the article says both things: that the letter has been sent AND that it will be sent in 30 mins.) this was proof that what ramdev had been saying all along (that "in writing" was still awaited from the govt. BUT had been promised) was indeed the correct version. where is this letter? this letter was never sent. a lathi charge was sent instead! the media, which short circuited ramdev and sibal was the catalyst that made an already confused govt. take a panicky action. why has the govt. not sent the letter till date? even the media has forgotten it!

Rashmun wrote:The same article whose link you give has union minister Kapil Sibal saying:

Let's say one guy says "there are divisions." Another says "there are no divisions." What does that prove? That there are no divisions between those two?

According to media reports, Sonia Gandhi is asking the same questions I am asking here... why the urgency, why midnight lathi-charge, what was the need to do it so hastily, etc.

IBN wrote: Sonia Gandhi asked the ministers why was Ramdev allowed to hold the Satyagraha at Ramlila Maidan in the first place when the written permission was not there and why didn't the Government then wait for at least a day before removing Ramdev

Perhaps you would care to answer her (er... my) question.

Merlot wrote:Any political party would not be stupid enough to gather 10,000+ people at Ramlila grounds without prior warning to the administration.

That is not true. Gatherings of 10,000+ people without permission is a matter of routine in Indian political life. R2D2 already gave you a number of situations when such permissions are neither sought nor granted. None of those gatherings get lathi-charged.

Merlot wrote:I still maintain the govt took the right call in dispersing that crowd once it became clear that Bibi R was only escalating matters.

And how was he escalating matters?

Merlot wrote:Back in the 70s, Indira Gandhi similarly cracked down on extremely violent Sadhus who were protesting cow slaughter or some such issue.

But the people protesting in this case were not "extremely violent."

Merlot wrote:Funny how history repeats itself.

Yes... I am sure the justifications offered for the Emergency were not to far off from the arguments offered in defense of the midnight lathi-charge.

it's apparent from reading press reports that all they've been doing is some knee jerk damage control without any clear policy direction. but this is par for course I suppose. also, wonder why the party didnt have the same reaction to telangana activists destroying statues and such on tank bund. since they are sooo beholden to law and order. it's these inconsistencies that irk people and cause them to get into a freeforall mode we've been operating in, over past 60 yrs.

Rashmun wrote:--> the problem with Sonia is of course her italian origin. Ramdev has lampooned her italian origin on several occasions. if she would say that the action against Ramdev was right, Ramdev (and also leaders of BJP and other parties) would again start harping on her Italian origin.

A simpler explanation is this... the Empress (or one of her cronies) overreached and send in the police. They didn't expect the intense public anger that their actions would provoke. Once the Empress realized what had happened, she decided she needs to be seen to be just as flummoxed as the rest of us.

This is not very different from how Mubarak, for instance, reacted. When he saw the popular anger against the violence of his secret police, he was on the side of the people, wanting to know the truth behind what had happened!