Re: Bwahaha..Baba Ramdev was caught running away...

by Merlot Daruwala Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:34 pm

artood2 wrote:Yes my point in all this is why the lathicharge or tear gas? These are innocent people who have gathered for a peaceful rally.

Sir, all that badmouthing of Arundhati Roy yesterday apparently hasn't stopped you from embracing her style of fact distortion. If you want to believe that the cops are these callous beasts who just beat up hapless innocents for kicks, please stop reading any further and continue to hold on to your belief.

From all accounts, the trouble started when people nearest to Bibi Ramdev responded to his incitement and formed a cordon around him to stop the cops from taking him away. That was when the cops used force. Cops anywhere in the world would have behaved identically if a large unruly crowd stopped them from discharging their official duties - such hindrance is a crime, so the folks who got hurt were no innocents.

by charvaka Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:35 pm

Propagandhi711 wrote:it's apparent from reading press reports that all they've been doing is some knee jerk damage control without any clear policy direction.

Yeah, they were stupid enough to let this thing blow up on their faces. Ramdev is a clown; they have given him a lot of victimhood brownie points, and they have energized the BJP to come out openly in support of him. In order to preserve the Empress's image, they need to find a scapegoat fast -- I suspect MMS may end up being the scapegoat, which will be a pity. Or perhaps Chidambaran will fall on his sword.

by charvaka Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:45 pm

Merlot Daruwala wrote:the cops are these callous beasts who just beat up hapless innocents for kicks

That's a reasonable assumption. Why would anyone get a job as an underpaid cop if they didn't like the "perks" of being able to beat people up? Indian cops are known to shoot people in the head at close range and claim "encounter" death. There is not a whole lot of difference between thug and thulla in India, and you know that as well as I do.

by Guest Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:02 pm

Carvaka,
given a choice of either a BJP govt. or a Congress govt. which would u choose?

by charvaka Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:08 pm

Rashmun wrote:Carvaka,
given a choice of either a BJP govt. or a Congress govt. which would u choose?

In theory, if those are my only two choices, I would prefer a Congress-led government. But I wouldn't mindlessly support every move a Congress government makes. I would criticize them bluntly for their horrible mistakes (like the midnight lathi-charge.)

In practice, my vote in an election is for an MP not a government; I found myself voting often for the Congress's opponents in elections.

by artood2 Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:39 pm

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
artood2 wrote:Yes my point in all this is why the lathicharge or tear gas? These are innocent people who have gathered for a peaceful rally.

Sir, all that badmouthing of Arundhati Roy yesterday apparently hasn't stopped you from embracing her style of fact distortion. If you want to believe that the cops are these callous beasts who just beat up hapless innocents for kicks, please stop reading any further and continue to hold on to your belief.

From all accounts, the trouble started when people nearest to Bibi Ramdev responded to his incitement and formed a cordon around him to stop the cops from taking him away. That was when the cops used force. Cops anywhere in the world would have behaved identically if a large unruly crowd stopped them from discharging their official duties - such hindrance is a crime, so the folks who got hurt were no innocents.

Sir, I started the Arundhati Roy bash, so spare me that. And if you think cops are very reasonable duty bound disciplined force that is independent of political *guidance*, all I got to say is : hahahahahaham.

by SomeProfile Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:25 pm

charvaka wrote:In order to preserve the Empress's image, they need to find a scapegoat fast -- I suspect MMS may end up being the scapegoat, which will be a pity.

Why is that pity? Fucker rode his academic credentials and the record of economic reforms under PVN to take on the puppet PM role. Has he had any achievements as a PM that is worth mentioning? The list of his incompetent, puppet actions and responses are too long. He's a national shame worse than Deve Gowda as PM. I'll be happy to see him go.

by Guest Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:00 pm

[quote="charvaka"]

Rashmun wrote:The same article whose link you give has union minister Kapil Sibal saying:

Let's say one guy says "there are divisions." Another says "there are no divisions." What does that prove? That there are no divisions between those two?
lol!

There is a difference between strategy and tactics. The govt. and the congress party agreed on the strategy on how to handle Ramdev and this is what Sibal is referring to. The party left it to the govt. to take suitable action with respect to tactics on how to handle Ramdev and this is what Digvijay is referring to. lol!

sorry i couldn't resist this.

by charvaka Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:04 am

Rashmun wrote:There is a difference between strategy and tactics. The govt. and the congress party agreed on the strategy on how to handle Ramdev and this is what Sibal is referring to. The party left it to the govt. to take suitable action with respect to tactics on how to handle Ramdev and this is what Digvijay is referring to.

I am glad that made sense to you. I wish -- the sake of Congress party -- that it makes sense to the rest of the world. But going by that IBN article, it doesn't.

Rashmun wrote:

sorry i couldn't resist this.

Don't be. Your performance as Congress spokesman has indeed been LOL-worthy!

by charvaka Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:11 am

SomeProfile wrote:Why is that pity? Fucker rode his academic credentials and the record of economic reforms under PVN to take on the puppet PM role. Has he had any achievements as a PM that is worth mentioning? The list of his incompetent, puppet actions and responses are too long. He's a national shame worse than Deve Gowda as PM. I'll be happy to see him go.

In Telugu, we have an idiom "katti meeda saamu" which roughly translates to "wrestling on the sharp edge of a knife." MMS's role is akin to that. And he has done passably in that role. It is on his watch that India threw off official nuclear pariahdom. It is on his watch that India has taken on a larger role in Afghanistan. And he has retained his own personal reputation for integrity -- although his government has been very corrupt. My preference is for coalition governments, and MMS, like Vajpayee before him, has proven himself to be a good figurehead weak enough to lead a coalition without stepping on too many toes.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:12 am

[quote="charvaka"]

Rashmun wrote:
Rashmun wrote:

sorry i couldn't resist this.
Don't be. Your performance as Congress spokesman has indeed been LOL-worthy!

Now I understand why the CEO suddenly fell in love with Rashmun ji. He is also unbiased bcz he thinks so.

Next week discussion: Akbar and MMS in dealing with hindu fanatics.

by Another Brick Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:33 am

SomeProfile wrote:
Why is that pity? Fucker rode his academic credentials and the record of economic reforms under PVN to take on the puppet PM role. Has he had any achievements as a PM that is worth mentioning? The list of his incompetent, puppet actions and responses are too long. He's a national shame worse than Deve Gowda as PM. I'll be happy to see him go.

woman mohan singh cares only about his own chair, nothing else. he does not care what happens around him as long as he can remain the PM. he is a gentleman and a brilliant economist (or so his CV tells me) but he has not been impressive as a PM. even after so many scams, he has not even offered to resign. now, looking at the congress cupboard, it is not a bad thing that he has not resigned, but he should have at least offered to.

btw, i don't think he or anybody else will be made a scapegoat. this thing will be forgotten in the next week. bibi ramdevi is too insignificant a matter for congress to force someone to resign.

by Guest Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:41 am

Another Brick wrote:he is a gentleman and a brilliant economist (or so his CV tells me)

Bwahaha..Baba Ramdev was caught running away... - Page 2 24

by Another Brick Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:50 am

i mean, to be honest, i do not have sufficient knowledge to "judge" his economic "self".

by Guest Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:19 am

from what i could make out of baba ramdev (from those few hours of seige that i saw live on tv on saturday), this baba will not sit idle. maybe i am overreacting in excitement 'cos i just finished reading a novel on chanakya.

by Guest Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:16 am

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:There is a difference between strategy and tactics. The govt. and the congress party agreed on the strategy on how to handle Ramdev and this is what Sibal is referring to. The party left it to the govt. to take suitable action with respect to tactics on how to handle Ramdev and this is what Digvijay is referring to.
I am glad that made sense to you. I wish -- the sake of Congress party -- that it makes sense to the rest of the world. But going by that IBN article, it doesn't.

Rashmun wrote:

sorry i couldn't resist this.
Don't be. Your performance as Congress spokesman has indeed been LOL-worthy!

--> on the question of Ramdev, i believe the govt. took the right decision. i was only explaining the contradiction between the words of digvijay and sibal's words and i think the argument i have offered is a reasonable explanation.

--> i am as much a spokesman of the congress as you are the spokesman for Ramdev.

--> This is something you enjoy a lot so here goes:

lol!

by Rekz Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:24 am

Another Brick wrote:

woman mohan singh cares only about his own chair, nothing else. he does not care what happens around him as long as he can remain the PM. he is a gentleman and a brilliant economist (or so his CV tells me) but he has not been impressive as a PM. even after so many scams, he has not even offered to resign. now, looking at the congress cupboard, it is not a bad thing that he has not resigned, but he should have at least offered to.

btw, i don't think he or anybody else will be made a scapegoat. this thing will be forgotten in the next week. bibi ramdevi is too insignificant a matter for congress to force someone to resign.

@woman mohan singh & Bibi ramdevi
To mock someone at their lack of competence in a specific field why do u or anybody have to add femininity to them? what is ur point here? where are so called psedointellectual women on the board?? or everyone finds this bery funny... cheap i say:cyclops:

by Another Brick Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:09 am

you forgot kokkeelaben. but that's ok.

it appears i hurt your feelings. es oo aar aar waai. in return, you may mangle some female handle here. here's an idea. how about calling seven shaven or blabberwock bablurock when they err?

by Propagandhi711 Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:06 pm

I disagree with all of your respective assessments of MMS singh. I think he is one shining beacon of the congress admin and is doing a great balancing act on live wires. the country will surely go into the shitter if he and chidambaran are sidelined. this is my opinion and I'm unanimous in this.

also, what else can he do besides defer to sonia on several things? fight an internal battle which will sap his strength and distract focus from running the country? that wont be very pleasant - internal power struggles at that level wont be much fun.

by charvaka Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:10 pm

Rashmun wrote:--> i am as much a spokesman of the congress as you are the spokesman for Ramdev.

You have spent days justifying what the Congress government did. I haven't wasted even one post defending what Ramdev did.

Rashmun wrote:
--> This is something you enjoy a lot so here goes:

Thank you, I really enjoyed that. bounce

by charvaka Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:12 pm

Propagandhi711 wrote:I disagree with all of your respective assessments of MMS singh. I think he is one shining beacon of the congress admin and is doing a great balancing act on live wires. the country will surely go into the shitter if he and chidambaran are sidelined. this is my opinion and I'm unanimous in this.

also, what else can he do besides defer to sonia on several things? fight an internal battle which will sap his strength and distract focus from running the country? that wont be very pleasant - internal power struggles at that level wont be much fun.

Not sure if you were sarcastic or sincere in this post, but I think the same way. Katti meeda saamu is something hotheaded, alpha types are not good at; MMS being a cool customer is an asset in his role.

by Guest Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:40 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:--> i am as much a spokesman of the congress as you are the spokesman for Ramdev.
You have spent days justifying what the Congress government did. I haven't wasted even one post defending what Ramdev did.

Rashmun wrote:
--> This is something you enjoy a lot so here goes:

Thank you, I really enjoyed that.

Now that Ramdev has announced the formation of an armed brigade which would be willing to make 'the ultimate sacrifice', it appears that my assessment of him was right all along. It is sad that this fraud was able to hoodwink you for such a long time.

by charvaka Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:46 pm

Rashmun wrote:Now that Ramdev has given a call for armed rebellion, it appears that my assessment of him was right all along.

Nobody who wrote about Ramdev here was wrong in their assessment of him. You were wrong in your assessment of whether it is right for government to use force against a peaceful crowd in the dead of the night.

by Guest Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:56 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:Now that Ramdev has given a call for armed rebellion, it appears that my assessment of him was right all along.
Nobody who wrote about Ramdev here was wrong in their assessment of him. You were wrong in your assessment of whether it is right for government to use force against a peaceful crowd in the dead of the night.

you kept justifying Ramdev's actions in the sense that you kept turning a blind eye to the fact that he was violating the rule of law by holding a poiltical rally at avenue for which permission had only been sought and given for a yoga training session. you also turned a blind eye to the fact that permission had been sought and given for 5,000 people to attend the yoga session but 50,000 people showed up.

According to the rule of law, political rallys in Delhi can only take place in the Jantar Mantar. You kept turning a blind eye to this fact thereby justifying what Ramdev did.

Immediately after the Delhi eviction, Ramdev had sought permission from Mayawati to continue his rally in Noida but she refused. Why so? Because clearly the guy is a loose cannon and his naive followers posed a risk to the law and order situation getting out of hand. Will you also start calling Mayawati 'Empress' like you call Sonia?

Now that Ramdev has given a call for formation of an armed brigade, my stand on him has been vindicated. If the govt. would have continued to mollycoddle this rascal, and he would have continued to gain popularity in the minds of naive people (who this crook had been able to hoodwink) the law and order situation could have been seriously affected. He has after all shown his true colors by giving the call for creation of an armed brigade.

by Propagandhi711 Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:00 pm

charvaka wrote:
Propagandhi711 wrote:I disagree with all of your respective assessments of MMS singh. I think he is one shining beacon of the congress admin and is doing a great balancing act on live wires. the country will surely go into the shitter if he and chidambaran are sidelined. this is my opinion and I'm unanimous in this.

also, what else can he do besides defer to sonia on several things? fight an internal battle which will sap his strength and distract focus from running the country? that wont be very pleasant - internal power struggles at that level wont be much fun.
Not sure if you were sarcastic or sincere in this post, but I think the same way. Katti meeda saamu is something hotheaded, alpha types are not good at; MMS being a cool customer is an asset in his role.

no, completely serious. he's done whatever he could under diffiult conditions. I think we'll look back at this age and say nice stewardship. he might not be a good wartime PM but that's not everything.

by charvaka Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:02 pm

Rashmun wrote:you kept justifying Ramdev's actions

Show me one post where I justified Ramdev's actions. I will be happy to supply the meaning of the term "justified" if that will help clarify your confusion.

Rashmun wrote:you kept turning a blind eye ... you also turned a blind eye ... You kept turning a blind eye ...

अर्थात्: I ignored Ramdev's antics.

Rashmun wrote:Will you also start calling Mayawati 'Empress' like you call Sonia?

I don't call Sonia Gandhi Empress for the Congress government's treatment of Ramdev. So the answer to your question is "No." If you want to know why I call her Empress, do ask and I will be happy to answer you.

by Guest Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:10 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:you kept justifying Ramdev's actions
Show me one post where I justified Ramdev's actions. I will be happy to supply the meaning of the term "justified" if that will help clarify your confusion.

Rashmun wrote:you kept turning a blind eye ... you also turned a blind eye ... You kept turning a blind eye ...
अर्थात्: I ignored Ramdev's antics.

--> Your complete refusal to even offer mild rebuke for Ramdev's clear violation of the rule of law is enough for me to claim that you sought to justify his actions through your silence even though i brought up this issue several times. What you tried to do through your silence was to try and take away this issue from being under discussion. i kept bringing it up again and again and u kept turning a blind eye to Ramdev's clear violation of the rule of law.

--> ramdev's call for the creation of an armed brigade ready to make the 'ultimate sacrifice' shows that he has no respect for the rule of law.

Rashmun wrote:Will you also start calling Mayawati 'Empress' like you call Sonia?
I don't call Sonia Gandhi Empress for the Congress government's treatment of Ramdev. So the answer to your question is "No." If you want to know why I call her Empress, do ask and I will be happy to answer you.

i am not interested in why u call Sonia 'Empress'. i wish to know whether you will call Mayawati 'Empress' for denying Ramdev the opportunity to continue his political rally in Noida after he and his followers were evicted from the Ram Lila ground in Delhi. This was after he had made a specific request for the same to Mayawati. Was Mayawati right in denying Ramdev his request for continuing his political rally?

by charvaka Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:19 pm

Rashmun wrote: you sought to justify his actions

Sorry, but you are not making any sense. I ignored Ramdev the Idiot (and I called him that many times), and focused on the government's handling of the situation.

Ironically, the "logic" you are using right now is the same logic that Uppili uses to conclude that you are a terrorist sympathizer. (And irony of ironies, I am using your own tactic of quoting other CHers to cast aspersions on the person you are arguing with. bounce

)

Rashmun wrote:i am not interested in why u call Sonia 'Empress'.

Why not? You were interested enough in the matter to bring it up! Are you worried you won't like the answer?

Rashmun wrote:Was Mayawati right in denying Ramdev his request for continuing his political rally?

No, she wasn't. Doesn't make her an empress though.

by Propagandhi711 Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:20 pm

I think the critical question to ask ourselves at this juncture is WWAD (what would akbar do). that's your key to everything so all of you do that thinking and get back to me around 5 when I'll be free again,

by Guest Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:27 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote: you sought to justify his actions
Sorry, but you are not making any sense. I ignored Ramdev the Idiot (and I called him that many times), and focused on the government's handling of the situation.

Ironically, the "logic" you are using right now is the same logic that Uppili uses to conclude that you are a terrorist sympathizer. (And irony of ironies, I am using your own tactic of quoting other CHers to cast aspersions on the person you are arguing with. )

--> I have no idea how Uppili comes into the picture here. I am calling you out on your refusal to offer any rebuke on Ramdev's clear violation of the rule of law. Uppili has called me a terrorist sympathiser not for silence but for my secular views on people like the mughal emperor Akbar (who Pandit Nehru, Netaji Bose and other luminaries have praised and who Uppili is pleased to call a butcher).

Rashmun wrote:i am not interested in why u call Sonia 'Empress'.
Why not? You were interested enough in the matter to bring it up! Are you worried you won't like the answer?

Rashmun wrote:Was Mayawati right in denying Ramdev his request for continuing his political rally?
No, she wasn't. Doesn't make her an empress though.

--> i do not wish to deviate from this discussion. We can discuss Sonia separately in a different thread. I only wanted to know your views on Mayawati's decision on Ramdev and what you thought of her for taking that decision.

by Guest Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:28 pm

Propagandhi711 wrote:I think the critical question to ask ourselves at this juncture is WWAD (what would akbar do). that's your key to everything so all of you do that thinking and get back to me around 5 when I'll be free again,

Another critical question to ask is whether there was something to FlimFlam's views on tribal loyalty.

by Guest Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:32 pm

Rashmun wrote:you kept justifying Ramdev's actions in the sense that you kept turning a blind eye to the fact that he was violating the rule of law by holding a poiltical rally

why do you choose to call it a political rally when he avowed that he had no political affiliations.

at avenue for which permission had only been sought and given for a yoga training session.

but they knew that he was going there for a fast and a satyagraha many days before he actually did. it was all over the news media. why did they not cancel the permission?

by Merlot Daruwala Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:33 pm

charvaka wrote:Show me one post where I justified Ramdev's actions.

No, I wouldn't expect you to slip up on something basic like that. And yet, by (a) responding to a post on the hilarity of Bibi R's dressy escape attempt with outrage and (b) blatantly ignoring Bibi R's violation of the law, choosing instead to demonize the state and vastly exaggerating what was - by Indian standards - a fairly restrained eviction of a crowd which was in violation of prohibitory orders and which was stopping the cops from carrying out their duties, you willynilly cast yourself in a partisan mould.

Your outrage might have still made sense if this whole thing had happened in vacuum in some country where human rights are highly valued and police brutality is unknown. But this happened in India. Just a few kilometres away from this event which so outraged you, just a few weeks back, UP cops opened fire on protesting farmers killing four and injuring dozens. I hope you agree that was a far more egregious violation of human rights. And yet, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't recall a fraction of the outrage you displayed in this thread. Which is why it's hard to believe your latest claim that you're arguing this on principle and it's not about Bibi Ramdev*. If anything, one could interpret this at an attempt to distance yourself from him, now that the virtuous paragon of logic and rationality is using his constitutionally protected fundamental right to speech to advocate armed rebellion against the state.

* Of course, it may still not be about Bibi Ramdev and more about the Empress. Since Mayawati is apparently not an empress, any violation of human rights under her watch is presumably not worthy of similar outrage.

by charvaka Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:35 pm

Rashmun wrote:Uppili has called me a terrorist sympathiser not for silence

Uppili has many times accused you of being a terrorist sympathizer because -- according to him -- you disappear from CH when terrorist incidents occur and don't speak out against them.

Anyway, that was just a demonstration of your own debating tactics. I don't believe you are a terrorist sympathizer.

Rashmun wrote:We can discuss Sonia separately in a different thread.

Happy to!

Rashmun wrote:I only wanted to know your views on Mayawati's decision on Ramdev and what you thought of her for taking that decision.

Now you know.

by Guest Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:38 pm

Merlot Daruwala wrote:Just a few kilometres away from this event which so outraged you, just a few weeks back, UP cops opened fire on protesting farmers killing four and injuring dozens. I hope you agree that was a far more egregious violation of human rights. And yet, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't recall a fraction of the outrage you displayed in this thread.

that was bad. but is this supposed that mitigate our shock at what happened wiith baba ramdev?

by charvaka Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:45 pm

Merlot Daruwala wrote:No, I wouldn't expect you to slip up on something basic like that.

अर्थात्: I didn't justify Ramdev's actions.

Merlot Daruwala wrote:And yet, by (a) responding to a post on the hilarity of Bibi R's dressy escape attempt with outrage

Outrage, really? I was just questioning your gloating at the result of an incident of police brutality on a peaceful crowd.

Merlot Daruwala wrote:demonize the state

Big words... but sorry, it is not demonization of the state to express the same concerns that the Supreme Court of India raised later.

Merlot Daruwala wrote:prohibitory orders

When were prohibitory orders issued?

Merlot Daruwala wrote:I don't recall a fraction of the outrage you displayed in this thread.

Again, that is because you are inferring outrage when what I expressed was surprise.

Merlot Daruwala wrote:Which is why it's hard to believe your latest claim that you're arguing this on principle and it's not about Bibi Ramdev*.

It should not be. Two days ago, I said I don't like Ramdev at all, and that I am arguing about the principle of government's power to use force against a peaceful crowd of protestors. You and Rashmun are the only people here who seem to have trouble understanding that.

by Guest Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:56 pm

[quote="charvaka"]

Rashmun wrote:Uppili has called me a terrorist sympathiser not for silence

Uppili has many times accused you of being a terrorist sympathizer because -- according to him -- you disappear from CH when terrorist incidents occur and don't speak out against them.

--> The difference is that in an extended debate you refused to offer any rebuke for Ramdev's violation of the rule of law. Thereby you sought to take this issue off the table in what was a serious discussion.

--> If i am not around on CH Uppili is of course free to cook up any story he wants. He has also accused Merlot of being a terrorist sympathizer for instance. And if i am not mistaken that honor has been bestowed on you too by your guruvu garu sandilya. Sandilya has also called you all sorts of names. But i think a distinction needs to be made between a serious discussion and a farcial one.

by charvaka Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:58 pm

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
Merlot Daruwala wrote:Just a few kilometres away from this event which so outraged you, just a few weeks back, UP cops opened fire on protesting farmers killing four and injuring dozens. I hope you agree that was a far more egregious violation of human rights. And yet, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't recall a fraction of the outrage you displayed in this thread.

that was bad. but is this supposed that mitigate our shock at what happened wiith baba ramdev?

Ironically, this is a tactic not dissimilar from the tactic used by the chaddis when anybody talks about the Gujarat riots. They immediately scream, "1984". It's just the players that are on different sides; the game is the same one of deflecting blame / responsibility.

by charvaka Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:00 pm

Rashmun wrote:you refused to offer any rebuke for Ramdev's violation of the rule of law

I didn't refuse. I focused on something else you'd rather not have me focus on!

Rashmun wrote:i think a distinction needs to be made between a serious discussion and a farcial one.

Yes, I agree. This thread became farcical when you said I should have "congratulated" the government for what they did. Up until then, it was a serious discussion.

by Guest Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:02 pm

charvaka wrote:
Merlot Daruwala wrote:No, I wouldn't expect you to slip up on something basic like that.
अर्थात्: I didn't justify Ramdev's actions.

Merlot Daruwala wrote:Which is why it's hard to believe your latest claim that you're arguing this on principle and it's not about Bibi Ramdev*.
It should not be. Two days ago, I said I don't like Ramdev at all, and that I am arguing about the principle of government's power to use force against a peaceful crowd of protestors. You and Rashmun are the only people here who seem to have trouble understanding that.

--------
Carvaka,
can u explain to me your complete silence on Ramdev's refusal to adhere to the rule of law which i pointed out repeatedly in our discussion? Is it not obvious now that Ramdev has announced the creation of an armed brigade ready to make the 'ultimate sacrifice' that the man has no respect for the rule of law whatsoever and that he poses a real threat to law and order?

by Guest Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:06 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:you refused to offer any rebuke for Ramdev's violation of the rule of law
I didn't refuse. I focused on something else you'd rather not have me focus on!

Rashmun wrote:i think a distinction needs to be made between a serious discussion and a farcial one.
Yes, I agree. This thread became farcical when you said I should have "congratulated" the government for what they did. Up until then, it was a serious discussion.

I disagree. My view is that the approach taken towards handling the Ramdev issue was the correct one and i found it strange that you did not agree with the stand taken by the government.

I continue to find it strange that you are unable to offer any explanation as to why you did not offer any rebuke for Ramdev for violating the rule of law.

by charvaka Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:07 pm

Rashmun wrote:Is it not obvious now that Ramdev has announced the creation of an armed brigade ready to make the 'ultimate sacrifice' that the man has no respect for the rule of law whatsoever and that he poses a real threat to law and order?

You gotta stop making these leaps of logic. First, it is not a crime to "have no respect for the rule of law." Second, even if someone "has no respect for the rule of law," the government should not be lathi-charging his peaceful protest. Third, it is not an acceptable reason to beat up people who joined his protest, just because you think he has no respect for the rule of law. Fourth, "having no respect for the rule of law" does not necessarily translate to "is a real threat to law and order." Let me illustrate these points. There are many mad men on the bus in San Francisco. They have no respect for the rule of law. None of them pose a real threat to law and order. And the government shouldn't be lathi-charging my morning bus because I sit with those guys. Hope that helps.

by charvaka Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:10 pm

Rashmun wrote:i found it strange that you did not agree with the stand taken by the government.

I never agree with governments that use violent force against peaceful protestors. Period.

Rashmun wrote:I continue to find it strange that you are unable to offer any explanation as to why you did not offer any rebuke for Ramdev for violating the rule of law.

My focus is on holding the government to account for its actions. I don't make it my focus to condemn the specific idiocies of each idiot out there; the most such idiots usually get from me is a generic "he is an idiot" comment.

by Guest Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:16 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:Is it not obvious now that Ramdev has announced the creation of an armed brigade ready to make the 'ultimate sacrifice' that the man has no respect for the rule of law whatsoever and that he poses a real threat to law and order?
You gotta stop making these leaps of logic. First, it is not a crime to "have no respect for the rule of law." Second, even if someone "has no respect for the rule of law," the government should not be lathi-charging his peaceful protest. Third, it is not an acceptable reason to beat up people who joined his protest, just because you think he has no respect for the rule of law. Fourth, "having no respect for the rule of law" does not necessarily translate to "is a real threat to law and order." Let me illustrate these points. There are many mad men on the bus in San Francisco. They have no respect for the rule of law. None of them pose a real threat to law and order. And the government shouldn't be lathi-charging my morning bus because I sit with those guys. Hope that helps.

Responding to each of your points:
1. Wrong. You have to follow the rule of law otherwise there will be anarchy and chaos. The designated spot for political rallys in Delhi is Jantar Mantar and not Ram Lila ground for which permission had been sought and given to Ramdev for a yoga training session for 5,000 people when in fact 50,000 people collected and Ramdev was giving a call to more and more of his followers to join in.
2. According to the people on the ground, tensions were flaring to the extent that the peaceful protest could have turned violent anytime with a single spark.

3. Nobody would have gotten beaten if Ramdev had courted arrest peacefully and gracefully when the cops came to arrest him. Instead he jumped from the dias and ran towards the women disciples who sought to shield him from the police. The cops then had to used force to get to Ramdev. This use of force by the cops to get to Ramdev (who was trying to evade arrest) would have taken place anywhere in the world as Merlot has rightly pointed out.

4. See point 2.

Additionally:

5. Ramdev's claim that he would now arm and train an armed brigade of 11,000 people ready to make the 'ultimate sacrifice' essentially means that he wants to create a small army of fanatical suicide bombers. I find it difficult to believe that you continue to offer support to such a man.

by charvaka Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:21 pm

Rashmun wrote:I find it difficult to believe that you continue to offer support to such a man.

Your difficulty has a single source: your misunderstanding regarding what I am doing. I am not offering support to Ramdev, who I can't stand. I am standing up for the right of Indians to protest peacefully without fear of lathi-charges and violent midnight evictions. Those things are par for the course in China and Bahrain, not in India.

by Guest Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:22 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:I find it difficult to believe that you continue to offer support to such a man.
Your difficulty has a single source: your misunderstanding regarding what I am doing. I am not offering support to Ramdev, who I can't stand. I am standing up for the right of Indians to protest peacefully without fear of lathi-charges and violent midnight evictions. Those things are par for the course in China and Bahrain, not in India.

All right, then, i find it difficult to believe that you would not support a crackdown by the govt on this man who
(a) refuses to follow the rule of law and keep violating the law
(b) announces the creation of a small army of suicide bombers

by charvaka Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:27 pm

Rashmun wrote:All right, then, i find it difficult to believe that you would not support a crackdown by the govt

That's because I don't support "crackdowns" -- particularly if they are violent. Ramdev is violating the law, and there is a way to deal with that -- first file charges in a court of law, before beating up dozens of people! That is the rule of law; not midnight lathi-charges. Reposing power to crackdown on peaceful protestors in the government is something I am not comfortable with. Neither is the Supreme Court of India.

by Guest Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:29 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:All right, then, i find it difficult to believe that you would not support a crackdown by the govt
That's because I don't support "crackdowns" -- particularly if they are violent. Ramdev is violating the law, and there is a way to deal with that -- first file charges in a court of law, before beating up dozens of people! That is the rule of law; not midnight lathi-charges. Reposing power to crackdown on peaceful protestors in the government is something I am not comfortable with. Neither is the Supreme Court of India.

how should the govt. respond to Ramdev's announcement that he is going to create an army of 11,000 people ready to make the 'ultimate sacrifice'?

by Guest Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:31 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:All right, then, i find it difficult to believe that you would not support a crackdown by the govt
That's because I don't support "crackdowns" -- particularly if they are violent. Ramdev is violating the law, and there is a way to deal with that -- first file charges in a court of law, before beating up dozens of people! That is the rule of law; not midnight lathi-charges. Reposing power to crackdown on peaceful protestors in the government is something I am not comfortable with. Neither is the Supreme Court of India.

The beating up of the people only took place because Ramdev sought to evade arrest by concealing himself amongst his disciples. The cops then had to use force to get to him.

How should the cops who came to arrest Ramdev have reacted when they had orders to arrest him and when instead of courting arrest he sought to flee and evade arrest by concealing himself amongst his disciples?

by charvaka Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:36 pm

Rashmun wrote:
charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:All right, then, i find it difficult to believe that you would not support a crackdown by the govt
That's because I don't support "crackdowns" -- particularly if they are violent. Ramdev is violating the law, and there is a way to deal with that -- first file charges in a court of law, before beating up dozens of people! That is the rule of law; not midnight lathi-charges. Reposing power to crackdown on peaceful protestors in the government is something I am not comfortable with. Neither is the Supreme Court of India.

how should the govt. respond to Ramdev's announcement that he is going to create an army of 11,000 people ready to make the 'ultimate sacrifice'?

Watch what he does, not what he blabbers. If he does any thing illegal prosecute him.

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