Baba Ramdev a thug: Digvijay

by Guest Sun Jun 05, 2011 2:38 pm

a slightly longer video:

by Guest Sun Jun 05, 2011 2:41 pm

On one occasion there was a television debate between Ramdev and a member of an Indian Rationalist organization. The rationalist questioned Ramdev as to how he can claim that he can cure serious diseases like cancer through yoga when he is unable to cure a relatively minor ailment like the involuntary flickering of one of his (Ramdev's) own eyes. Ramdev got very agitated at this question.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sun Jun 05, 2011 2:57 pm

If you want to question Ramdev's integrity based on his past non-sense, then you should do the same with the Accuser Digvijay.

By "reporting" only one side - you seem to IMPLY that you agree with Digvijay.

If not then be impartial AND state clearly you are just as dumb as the CEO who has no opinion on anything.

by Another Brick Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:27 am

this d!ckvijay singh is talking too much these days. from karkare to osamaji and from RSS to baba ramdev. who the ef cares about this idiot? he is not even important to MP politics any more, let alone national politics. he does not hold any position in congress except "senior leader". why do they publish his news is beyond me. he is such an attention-rund0.

by artood2 Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:45 am

He is AICC Gen Secretary. He apparently belongs to upper class in making money.

by Another Brick Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:56 am

is he now? i wasn't aware of his position in AICC.

by Merlot Daruwala Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:07 am

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:If you want to question Ramdev's integrity based on his past non-sense, then you should do the same with the Accuser Digvijay.

By "reporting" only one side - you seem to IMPLY that you agree with Digvijay.

If not then be impartial AND state clearly you are just as dumb as the CEO who has no opinion on anything.

Unkil, just because one doesn't like a Digvijay Singh doesn't mean one has to necessarily disagree with everything he says. It so happens that he's actually right for once - Baba Ramdev (or after his latest escapade, Bibi Ramdev) is just a cheap publicity-whore, using his vast, gullible fan following to upstage his bete noire, Anna Hazare. His views on most topics are absurd the extreme and this whole business of competitive fasting has become ludicrous.

by Another Brick Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:22 am

hahaha @ bibi ramdev. a ripping name for babaji.

by Merlot Daruwala Mon Jun 06, 2011 7:26 am

Just occurred to me - Digvijay Singh is the Arundhati Roy of the Congress party. Any cause he supports instantly loses credibility. Any person he denounces actually benefits from the sympathy wave.

by SomeProfile Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:50 am

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:If you want to question Ramdev's integrity based on his past non-sense, then you should do the same with the Accuser Digvijay.

By "reporting" only one side - you seem to IMPLY that you agree with Digvijay.

If not then be impartial AND state clearly you are just as dumb as the CEO who has no opinion on anything.

Unkil, just because one doesn't like a Digvijay Singh doesn't mean one has to necessarily disagree with everything he says. It so happens that he's actually right for once - Baba Ramdev (or after his latest escapade, Bibi Ramdev) is just a cheap publicity-whore, using his vast, gullible fan following to upstage his bete noire, Anna Hazare. His views on most topics are absurd the extreme and this whole business of competitive fasting has become ludicrous.

To me, it doesn't matter too much what his background is. If he can be a trigger for a popular anti-corruption movement in India, so be it. Somebody has to do it. I don't know what the ultimate outcome of it will be or if anything worthwhile or permanent will come out of it. But the fact that he can successfully troll the government and make them resort to silly reactions is good enough for me. The situation is ripe for this to explode into a popular pan-national movement. But at this juncture, it needs someone more skilled than jokers to turn this into popular anger and nationwide protests.

by charvaka Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:23 pm

Merlot Daruwala wrote:Unkil, just because one doesn't like a Digvijay Singh doesn't mean one has to necessarily disagree with everything he says.

By the same token, one doesn't have to disagree with all Ramdev says. He is right about corruption, although he is indeed a publicity whore with absurd views himself. Either way, the government had no business lathi-charging his protest at midnight. Competitive fasting is ludicrous; police lathi-charge on a peaceful protest is a violation of fundamental rights and an assault on the constitution. I'd rather worry about the more serious matter of government atrocities rather than the antics of a comic baba.

by Guest Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:14 pm

charvaka wrote:
Merlot Daruwala wrote:Unkil, just because one doesn't like a Digvijay Singh doesn't mean one has to necessarily disagree with everything he says.
By the same token, one doesn't have to disagree with all Ramdev says. He is right about corruption, although he is indeed a publicity whore with absurd views himself. Either way, the government had no business lathi-charging his protest at midnight. Competitive fasting is ludicrous; police lathi-charge on a peaceful protest is a violation of fundamental rights and an assault on the constitution. I'd rather worry about the more serious matter of government atrocities rather than the antics of a comic baba.

--> with respect to corruption, why is Ramdev only targetting the Congress? why is he not targetting ALL political parties including the BJP and Mulayam Singh Yadava's SP? is it not obvious that he is a front man for some opposition parties? Are the BJP ruled states, for instance Karnataka, free of corruption?

by charvaka Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:53 pm

Rashmun wrote:--> with respect to corruption, why is Ramdev only targetting the Congress? why is he not targetting ALL political parties including the BJP and Mulayam Singh Yadava's SP? is it not obvious that he is a front man for some opposition parties? Are the BJP ruled states, for instance Karnataka, free of corruption?

So, let's say he is a frontman for BJP. So what? It is perfectly legal to protest against the corruption of only one party. You and the Congress are welcome to protest the corruption in Karnataka. Ramdev may be partial to the BJP. Does that make it OK for the government to lathi-charge his protest? In other words, if the BJP is in power 4 years from now and they lathi-charge a protest against their corruption, you would be cool with that? Put your partisan hat aside for bit and think about the principles at stake here. You are arguing for the government to squash peaceful political protests with violence. You are arguing for the arbitrary power of government to "pack people off."

by Guest Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:13 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:--> with respect to corruption, why is Ramdev only targetting the Congress? why is he not targetting ALL political parties including the BJP and Mulayam Singh Yadava's SP? is it not obvious that he is a front man for some opposition parties? Are the BJP ruled states, for instance Karnataka, free of corruption?
So, let's say he is a frontman for BJP. So what? It is perfectly legal to protest against the corruption of only one party. You and the Congress are welcome to protest the corruption in Karnataka. Ramdev may be partial to the BJP. Does that make it OK for the government to lathi-charge his protest? In other words, if the BJP is in power 4 years from now and they lathi-charge a protest against their corruption, you would be cool with that? Put your partisan hat aside for bit and think about the principles at stake here. You are arguing for the government to squash peaceful political protests with violence. You are arguing for the arbitrary power of government to "pack people off."

What you are forgetting in your diatribe is that the govt. had agreed to ALL of Ramdev's demands and senior union ministers like Kapil Sibal and Pranab Mukherjee had met him in person. They had gone out of their way to be reasonable. Ramdev had agreed to put an end to his political rally and had indeed given a written assurance of the same. But then, Ramdev went back on his word and started making fresh demands. He was literally starting to blackmail the govt.

Peaceful protests can turn violent as was seen in the december 6, 1992 incident. People who played a pivotal role in that incident were sharing the stage with Ramdev. If the govt. thought that there was a chance of the situation becoming so tense that it could spiral out of control then they had the right to disperse the crowd. Moreover, Ramdev had duped the govt. by holding the rally in the first place since Ramdev had only taken permission for a yoga camp for 5,000 people at this venue where he held his political rally.

by charvaka Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:22 pm

Rashmun wrote:the govt. had agreed to ALL of Ramdev's demands...

... in its back-room political negotiations with Ramdev. And when he pulled out of those, they begin complaining to the media.

Ramdev may be a bad guy, but the lathi-charge is not justified on the basis that he walked out of a political deal he made with Congress. If he violated any law, he should have been prosecuted. There was no need to lathi-charge the crowd in the middle of night.

Rashmun wrote:Peaceful protests can turn violent...

Again, anything can happen. Just like peaceful protests can turn violent, governments that do midnight lathi-charges can also do Jallianwallah Baghs. Both are possibilities. Any reasonable person will be able to see that the government's crackdown on the crowd was ill-advised and it needlessly trampled on people's rights.

by Guest Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:39 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:the govt. had agreed to ALL of Ramdev's demands...
... in its back-room political negotiations with Ramdev. And when he pulled out of those, they begin complaining to the media.

Ramdev may be a bad guy, but the lathi-charge is not justified on the basis that he walked out of a political deal he made with Congress. If he violated any law, he should have been prosecuted. There was no need to lathi-charge the crowd in the middle of night.

Rashmun wrote:Peaceful protests can turn violent...
Again, anything can happen. Just like peaceful protests can turn violent, governments that do midnight lathi-charges can also do Jallianwallah Baghs. Both are possibilities. Any reasonable person will be able to see that the government's crackdown on the crowd was ill-advised and it needlessly trampled on people's rights.

-------
1. My understanding of the sequence of events is that Ramdev had promised to wrap up his fast and satyagraha BS at 4 p.m. in the evening. When he did not do so, the govt. gave him some more time to wrap up his nonsense and was in touch with him and his aides over the phone.

2. Ramdev refused to end his nonsense, went back on his written word, started making fresh demands, and started encouraging more of his naive followers from across the country to join him.

3. Late at night, when most of the people who had collected in the Ram Lila ground were fast asleep the cops moved in.

4. Ramdev, on seeing the cops, shouted 'Vande Mataram', jumped from the dias and ran towards where women were seated. His women disciples surrounded him so as to shield him.

5. notice that had Ramdev surrendered quietly nobody would have been injured.

6. the cops tried to get hold of Ramdev but were thwarted by his disciples from doing so. To get hold of Ramdev, the cops had to rough up some of the disciples. Also, there was some clash because some disciples of Ramdev tried to assault some of the police men and women.

on another note, Mulayam Singh Yadava had asked the cops to do a lathi charge prior to December 6, 1992 when Kar sevaks had collected and were posing a threat to the law and order situation. did he do the right thing?

by charvaka Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:58 pm

Rashmun wrote:... the sequence of events ...

That's quite a story you tell, as if you were there. Assuming for a moment that the story is right as you tell it, there is still no justification for a lathi-charge. There was no burning need to shut down a peaceful protest overnight.

Rashmun wrote:the cops had to rough up some of the disciples.

You so callously talk about the cops having to "rough up some disciples." That is not something cops are supposed to do. They cannot beat peaceful protestors just for resisting arrest or shielding their leader from arrest. I am sure you were really upset when the goons of the Sri Rama Sene "roughed up" some women at a Mangalore pub. In my mind, the excuses you are making for the cops' actions are not different from the excuses that other CHers were making for the Rama Sene thugs then. What makes this situation worse is that the violence has been perpetrated by the government, which is supposed to prevent all such incidents from occurring!

Rashmun wrote: ... Ramdev had promised to wrap up his fast and satyagraha BS at 4 p.m. in the evening. When he did not do so, the govt. gave him some more time to wrap up his nonsense ...

Why was it so important for the government that Ramdev wrap up his "nonsense" soon? Why the urgency in trying to shut down the protest overnight? What were they worried about?

Also, you should never believe the police's version of events. Indian police routinely lie about what happened when questioned about their actions. So your story is just that; a fictionalized account of a reality that we will never know for sure. What we do know is that the police beat up the people -- something they need not have done if not for a sense of urgency that is completely unexplained.

You should consider whether you are doing the right thing by making excuses for police brutality on peaceful sleeping protestors -- not matter how much you -- and I -- dislike their political beliefs. The Congress government has done the rule of law a grave disservice with the way it unleashed the dogs of war on a peaceful sleeping protestors. No amount of lipstick can make this pig look good.

by Kris Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:12 pm

Good point on the govt's haste in this whole thing. They need to investigate this, Ramdev's tomfoolery notwithstanding.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:04 am

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:--> with respect to corruption, why is Ramdev only targetting the Congress? why is he not targetting ALL political parties including the BJP and Mulayam Singh Yadava's SP? is it not obvious that he is a front man for some opposition parties? Are the BJP ruled states, for instance Karnataka, free of corruption?
So, let's say he is a frontman for BJP. So what? It is perfectly legal to protest against the corruption of only one party. You and the Congress are welcome to protest the corruption in Karnataka.You are arguing for the arbitrary power of government to "pack people off."

Perhaps, it reminds him of the Golden rule of Akbar and Moghuls when they swished and slaughtered anyone who protested their atrocities. No wonder, he is elated and of course, he will post from some article/book about "freedom and democracy" soon.

by Guest Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:42 am

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:... the sequence of events ...
That's quite a story you tell, as if you were there. Assuming for a moment that the story is right as you tell it, there is still no justification for a lathi-charge. There was no burning need to shut down a peaceful protest overnight.

Rashmun wrote:the cops had to rough up some of the disciples.
You so callously talk about the cops having to "rough up some disciples." That is not something cops are supposed to do. They cannot beat peaceful protestors just for resisting arrest or shielding their leader from arrest. I am sure you were really upset when the goons of the Sri Rama Sene "roughed up" some women at a Mangalore pub. In my mind, the excuses you are making for the cops' actions are not different from the excuses that other CHers were making for the Rama Sene thugs then. What makes this situation worse is that the violence has been perpetrated by the government, which is supposed to prevent all such incidents from occurring!

Rashmun wrote: ... Ramdev had promised to wrap up his fast and satyagraha BS at 4 p.m. in the evening. When he did not do so, the govt. gave him some more time to wrap up his nonsense ...
Why was it so important for the government that Ramdev wrap up his "nonsense" soon? Why the urgency in trying to shut down the protest overnight? What were they worried about?

Also, you should never believe the police's version of events. Indian police routinely lie about what happened when questioned about their actions. So your story is just that; a fictionalized account of a reality that we will never know for sure. What we do know is that the police beat up the people -- something they need not have done if not for a sense of urgency that is completely unexplained.

You should consider whether you are doing the right thing by making excuses for police brutality on peaceful sleeping protestors -- not matter how much you -- and I -- dislike their political beliefs. The Congress government has done the rule of law a grave disservice with the way it unleashed the dogs of war on a peaceful sleeping protestors. No amount of lipstick can make this pig look good.

------------

1. there is a designated spot for holding political rallies in Delhi. it is the jantar mantar. if ramdev was holding a political rally at jantar mantar and his rally was cut short by the police then there would have been some justification for your anger. but was this the case? No.

2. ramdev sought and got permission for a yoga camp at Ram Lila ground for 5,000 people.

3. ramdev did not teach any yoga at the Ram Lila ground. instead he used the opportunity to use the ram lila ground to hold a political rally and make political speeches. More than 50,000 of his naive followers and also presumably some opposition party workers collected at the ram lila ground.

4. the govt. had accepted all his demands and he had agreed to put an end to his nonsense. but then he went back on his word and continued with his political rally at the ram lila ground.

5. since what ramdev was doing was clearly illegal and since there was fear that the law and order situation could spiral out of control the govt. had every right to disperse the political rally.

6. Ramdev did not surrender to the police who came to fetch him. instead he shouted vande mataram, jumped from the dias, and took shelter with his woman disciples who sought to shield him from the police. it is natural that to get to Ramdev the police would have had to use force against some of ramdev's disciples who were trying to thwart his arrest.

by Merlot Daruwala Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:48 am

charvaka wrote:
Merlot Daruwala wrote:Unkil, just because one doesn't like a Digvijay Singh doesn't mean one has to necessarily disagree with everything he says.
By the same token, one doesn't have to disagree with all Ramdev says.

I don't know who you're directing that statement against. Nobody in the world is disagreeing that corruption has to be ended and that black money stashed abroad should be brought home. But these things don't happen overnight because (a) no bank in its right mind will turn over somebody's assets to some foreign government on mere allegations that it's black money, (b) the GoI has to actually prove in a court of law that the account-holders evaded taxes and (c) that doesn't take place overnight simply because some jokers go on a hunger strike.

The objections to Bibi Ramdev are his other irrational demands (eg: abolition of British jurisprudence and replacement with a "swadeshi law", abolition of Rs 500/Rs 1000 denominations etc) and his form of protest which is really an attempt to blackmail the government into short-circuiting the due process of the law. I had the same objection to Anna Hazare's protest, but at the very least, that gentleman was not a joker.

charvaka wrote:...the government had no business lathi-charging his protest at midnight. Competitive fasting is ludicrous; police lathi-charge on a peaceful protest is a violation of fundamental rights and an assault on the constitution. I'd rather worry about the more serious matter of government atrocities rather than the antics of a comic baba.

Haha..Yes the government has no business lathi-charging protesters at midnight. But this is India. One sets one's expectations pretty low here. "Protesters" are almost never harmless candle-holding anthem-singers here. And cops wouldn't know Constitutional rights if those came and bit them in the nose. One is just happy those crowds at the Ramlila grounds didn't turn violent and the cops didn't open fire - like they did with the farmers in UP.

Bottomline: The lathi-charge just helped make a hero out of Bibi Ramdev (who otherwise would have been laughed out for his ridiculous opinions and his dressed-as-a-woman escape attempt). And we have an opportunistic BJP jumping on the bandwagon to make the most of this shameful incident.

by charvaka Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:52 am

The Supreme Court has asked the government and the police for an explanation. Do you think they did not know the facts you listed? We can go on repeating six-point statements ad nauseam; there isn't much value in that. Just explain to me why it was so urgent to use violence evict the protesters in the middle of the night. Be sure to address all three aspects that I highlighted.

by Another Brick Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:02 am

d!ckvijay singh is no saint. i think govt should lathi-charge him.

by Guest Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:04 am

charvaka wrote:The Supreme Court has asked the government and the police for an explanation. Do you think they did not know the facts you listed? We can go on repeating six-point statements ad nauseam; there isn't much value in that. Just explain to me why it was so urgent to use violence evict the protesters in the middle of the night. Be sure to address all three aspects that I highlighted.

1. what would u have done if you would have been the police official in charge of dispersing the crowd? would u not have preferred dispersing them at night when they would be sleepy and drowsy and hence less prone to become violent.

2. no violence would have taken place if Ramdev would have gracefully surrendered to the police who came to fetch him. instead of that he preferred to jump off the dias, flee to where his women supporters were, surrounded himself by these women and tried to evade arrest. Since Ramdev's disciples were seeking to thwart his arrest, it is natural that the cops had to use force to carry out the arrest.

by Another Brick Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:16 am

Merlot Daruwala wrote:And we have an opportunistic BJP jumping on the bandwagon to make the most of this shameful incident.

BJP is such a lame opposition party. they had all these issues (inflation, black money, CWG, 3G and sonia-G scams) to create a ruckus about, but they did not. they tried something about scams but mostly in the parliament. and now that someone else is doing their job, they are shamelessly joining. gadkari was a fantastic PWD minister in MH but has disappointed as the president of BJP.

by Merlot Daruwala Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:53 am

charvaka wrote:The Supreme Court has asked the government and the police for an explanation. Do you think they did not know the facts you listed?

Presumably, the Court doesn't know the facts. Hence the inquiry. Otherwise, it would have been a censure.

I didn't entirely read through Rashmun's posts but when getting consent to gather on the Ramlila grounds, Bibi Ramdev had represented that it was to hold a yoga camp for 5000 followers. Subsequently, his organization bused in thousands more and the purpose turned out to be to stage a political protest. That alone would be sufficient grounds to evict them.

And considering that there were some 10,000 people there, choosing to move in at midnight was a wise decision, designed to minimize the risk of violence and subsequent injury or death.

by Merlot Daruwala Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:00 am

SomeProfile wrote:If he can be a trigger for a popular anti-corruption movement in India, so be it. Somebody has to do it.

No, corruption is too important an issue to be entrusted to some unstable joker. Having people like that spearhead a cause only leads to instant loss of credibility and only serves as a distraction from what should be a serious national debate.

For instance, when there is a serious discussion in the Lok Pal commission about the scope and provisions of the bill, Bibi Ramdev trills that it should provide for a death penalty to anyone found to be corrupt. Then he threatens to go on a hunger strike if that provision is not included in the draft bill. This kind of tomfoolery really derails and distracts.

by charvaka Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:12 am

Merlot Daruwala wrote:But this is India. One sets one's expectations pretty low here.

Ironically, that is the most common explanation for bribe-giving and corruption that Indians offer.

Merlot Daruwala wrote:Bottomline: The lathi-charge just helped make a hero out of Bibi Ramdev (who otherwise would have been laughed out for his ridiculous opinions and his dressed-as-a-woman escape attempt).

And for that, the Congress has nobody to blame but their own stupidity.

Merlot Daruwala wrote:And we have an opportunistic BJP jumping on the bandwagon to make the most of this shameful incident.

What do you expect? That the BJP will sit on the sidelines and let a golden political opportunity pass them by? If onions become expensive under BJP rule, Congress is expected to make a big fucking deal out of that... same deal here.

by charvaka Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:37 am

Merlot Daruwala wrote:Presumably, the Court doesn't know the facts. Hence the inquiry. Otherwise, it would have been a censure.

That's not that presumable from what the Court has said:

Supreme Court bench wrote:"Considering the gravity of the police atrocities and the brutal
force that was used by the police to disperse the innocent people who
had gathered at Ramlila Maidan in furtherance to the permission granted
by the state, is a matter of concern for the court," the bench said.

None of the reasons you and Rashmun advance merit the haste and violence that were used in this case. They are out of character with how India deals with political rallies, no matter how watertight the permits are (or not.) Hence the popular anger at the midnight lathi-charge, and the Empress distancing herself from this action.

by charvaka Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:40 am

Rashmun wrote:1. what would u have done if you would have been the police official in charge of dispersing the crowd? would u not have preferred dispersing them at night when they would be sleepy and drowsy and hence less prone to become violent.

Had I been the political boss sending the police in, I wouldn't have ordered them to clear the area. I would have ordered them to deploy in order to protect people, and continue talking to the protestors to achieve a political resolution of a political problem.

Rashmun wrote:no violence would have taken place if ...

... Congress had not sent in the police to evict peaceful protestors forcibly at midnight.

Stop defending what the perpetrators have stopped defending. Even Congress party does not stand by the midnight lathi-charge now.

by SomeProfile Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:51 am

Good morning, all! I am just writing to say that I agree with everything that Charvaka has posted on this thread. I also disagree with everything that Rashmun and Merlot have posted on this thread. So far. It is rare for me to completely agree or disagree with someone, but in this case, it is clear-cut.

Also, Rashmun comes across as a blatantly and stupidly partisan hack. He would make a great GOP talking head on right-wing radio stations in the US.

Good morning all and have a nice day.

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