the last indian offspinner to have a "normal" smooth action

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:22 pm

compare shivlal yadav's smooth traditional offspinner action with beautiful followthrough with the chicken flapping harbhajan and the weirdass contortionist ashwin.

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:28 pm

rare footage of karsan ghavri bowling slow left arm orthodox. he usually bowled left arm medium pace. also some incredibly beautiful loopy bowling by dilip doshi. that entire series i remember he had the measure of greg chappell who perished to doshi time after time and later recalled how crafty doshi was.

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by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:43 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:rare footage of karsan ghavri bowling slow left arm orthodox. he usually bowled left arm medium pace. also some incredibly beautiful loopy bowling by dilip doshi. that entire series i remember he had the measure of greg chappell who perished to doshi time after time and later recalled how crafty doshi was.

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i used to love watching doshi bowl. he was pure.

by yogi Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:06 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

compare shivlal yadav's smooth traditional offspinner action with beautiful followthrough with the chicken flapping harbhajan and the weirdass contortionist ashwin.

What is weird about ashwin's bowling action? Even Bishan singh bedi certified him as a bowler with clean action.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:19 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
i used to love watching doshi bowl. he was pure.

Shivalkar was even simpler. Just 2 steps. that guy would just take 1 1/2 min per over to bowl

by truthbetold Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:46 am

Shivlal was a decent bowler but is a lousy corrupt administrator. He ruined Hyderabad cricket association. He ran ambati rayufu out of town to support his less talented son. He now sides with n. Srinivadan. Shivlal is bad news.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:48 am

yogi wrote:
What is weird about ashwin's bowling action? Even Bishan singh bedi certified him as a bowler with clean action.

he is chest-on and approaches the crease at a weird angle (usually offies come on either straight or at a diagonal from the off side to give them a side on position which helpful in pivoting at the point of delivery). ashwin has an approach that is slightly diagonal but from the leg side and then has that weird momentary stop just before the delivery stride. doesn't seem smooth and flowing. it's surely legit though.

watch ray illingworth or jim laker for more classical actions. i wish there was more bowling footage of prasanna and venkat too.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:53 am

here is another action i like.

the reason actions are important is because over a spinner's career, the body is subject to so much wear and tear from the pivoting and spinning that it's good to keep things smooth and simple. preserves them for a long career.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:10 am

some footage of pras and venkat bowling in england. not very effective on that occasion, but i posted this just for people who have never watched them bowl to see what they looked like. david lloyd (known to us today as bumble the commentator) scored a double ton (and his only three figure score ever in tests!) against india on that occasion.

by yogi Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:55 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
yogi wrote:
What is weird about ashwin's bowling action? Even Bishan singh bedi certified him as a bowler with clean action.

he is chest-on and approaches the crease at a weird angle (usually offies come on either straight or at a diagonal from the off side to give them a side on position which helpful in pivoting at the point of delivery). ashwin has an approach that is slightly diagonal but from the leg side and then has that weird momentary stop just before the delivery stride. doesn't seem smooth and flowing. it's surely legit though.

watch ray illingworth or jim laker for more classical actions. i wish there was more bowling footage of prasanna and venkat too.

Ashwin's stop and bowl deliveries are recent addition in his armory. He uses them effectively in shorter formats and very rarely in tests. What i don't like about his bowling is, he straight away comes around the wicket to right handers and bowls leg stump line trying o contain run. May be dhoni wants him to do that but i think he need to attack more bowling over the wicket.

I've watched jim laker's bowling after knowing that he was the 1st bowler to take 10 wickets in an innings. Very smooth and simple action with good loop and spin. You might have watched parvez rassol bowl in recent warm-up watches against australia. I find his action resembles that of laker's. Have a look

by yogi Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:01 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

the reason actions are important is because over a spinner's career, the body is subject to so much wear and tear from the pivoting and spinning that it's good to keep things smooth and simple. preserves them for a long career.

In the present crop of players i find only swann and lyon to have simple clean action. Speaking of ashwin, i think down the line he'll face problems with his fingers because of his bowling more and more of carrom balls.

by yogi Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:06 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:some footage of pras and venkat bowling in england. not very effective on that occasion, but i posted this just for people who have never watched them bowl to see what they looked like. david lloyd (known to us today as bumble the commentator) scored a double ton (and his only three figure score ever in tests!) against india on that occasion.

Thanks for posting. This is the first time i am watching them bowl. i've known venkatraghavan only as an umpire, now i know he is a good bowler too.

by nevada Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:35 pm

Ashish Kapoor had a clean action too. Arshad Ayub wasn't bad either.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:49 pm

yogi wrote:What i don't like about his bowling is, he straight away comes around the wicket to right handers and bowls leg stump line trying o contain run. May be dhoni wants him to do that but i think he need to attack more bowling over the wicket.

right on! that around the wkts leg stump line is annoying as hell. takes away the element of inviting the drive by pitching outside off or on off and middle, something pras especially and venkat used to do so well. the spell that sehwag bowled to the aussies in my video link is very reminiscent of the teasing line that pras used to bowl and would have made him very proud. i never quite understood why sehwag never bowled more than he did.

rasool looks like a great prospect.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:54 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:some footage of pras and venkat bowling in england. not very effective on that occasion, but i posted this just for people who have never watched them bowl to see what they looked like. david lloyd (known to us today as bumble the commentator) scored a double ton (and his only three figure score ever in tests!) against india on that occasion.

Could never understand how David Lloyd and Dennis Amiss could become THAT great... credit goes to Indians.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:27 pm

yogi wrote:
Thanks for posting. This is the first time i am watching them bowl. i've known venkatraghavan only as an umpire, now i know he is a good bowler too.

you're welcome. by the time i became a very aware follower of cricket, the quartet were already on their way out. i may have watched bedi, chandra, and pras bowl maybe in one test match on TV or in chepauk. i did get to see venkat bowl a bit because my uncle used to take me to chepauk to watch a good bit of domestic cricket and test matches when they were on. pras was just a touch better than venkat because he was more loopy. but venkat had to fight for his place in the team while pras was playing because captains mostly expected him to play a containing role and not so much a wicket taking role. i'd be interested in comparing his record when he played with pras in the team and when he played alone. that could be quite revealing. wonder how many matches they played together. but pras did have the better record -- better strike rate, more wkts in fewer matches and a comparable economy rate.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:39 pm

cricinfo actually is helpful in analyzing his stats with and without pras in the team:

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35656.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=default;player_involve=1181;template=results;type=allround

pras was a huge positive influence on venkat. venkat's stats bowling in tandem with pras is way better than his overall record.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:42 pm

venkat was good for pras too, but not by as much:

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/32357.html?class=1;filter=advanced;player_involve=1260;template=results;type=bowling

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:01 pm

is this paddy shivalkar? i understood much of what he says towards the end in hindi, but what he said in marathi at the start of the video completely escaped me.

nice article on padmakar shivalkar:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/sports/cricket/top-stories/Loads-of-pluck-not-much-luck-for-Padmakar-Shivalkar/articleshow/12861862.cms

some people are just plain unlucky. another name that comes to mind is badrinath subramaniam but at least he can say he played for india. shivalkar was just a huge tragedy.

by nevada Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:06 pm

Off spinner Kanwaljit Singh of Hyderabad was another domestic giant who never got a chance at the international level.

by yogi Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:11 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
yogi wrote:What i don't like about his bowling is, he straight away comes around the wicket to right handers and bowls leg stump line trying o contain run. May be dhoni wants him to do that but i think he need to attack more bowling over the wicket.

right on! that around the wkts leg stump line is annoying as hell. takes away the element of inviting the drive by pitching outside off or on off and middle, something pras especially and venkat used to do so well. the spell that sehwag bowled to the aussies in my video link is very reminiscent of the teasing line that pras used to bowl and would have made him very proud. i never quite understood why sehwag never bowled more than he did.

rasool looks like a great prospect.

He has a bad shoulder. he even underwent an surgery during 2011 ipl time.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:21 pm

no carrom balls and no doosras, just variations on your basic offbreak by a great bowler. loved watching this:

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