US Attorney's Statement

smArtha wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

India should charge this woman for filing different contracts and ask for accounting to ensure she spent all the money the Govt allotted her as Perk. Of course, that will never happen - given her SC status and the 1000s of crore corruption cases in India.

You are right. She will never be held accountable. She will most likely return to India as a hero. That's the irony of this entire episode.

GC - Are you being deliberately and selectively blind here not reading some comments on this forum if you cannot follow the Indian media. This is not a specific person or consular officer doing something wrong. She just did what every Indian consular official had been doing for ages. She just happened to be that person who got caught. It is an open thing that the State Department (or at the least the US Embassies in India) know about and are willing to let it pass for ages. This eager Attorney and the maid now broke that unwritten 'don't ask don't tell' thing and created the situation. So this specific Official in herself is not responsible individually and which is why the whole Indian MEA is at work now.

so this reaction is coming from the institution/people that are so used to breaking laws routinely and getting away with special treatment on the basis that they're 'officials' or 'educated' or 'didnt mean any harm' or our own confuzzled's favorite excuse "every one does it, a little corruption is healthy". they're so used to that modus operandi that they're taken aback when one of them gets caught and has to pay a small price. I wonder what MMS's reaction was back when there were H1Bs mistreated in a few high profile incidents. nothing. 

this whole episode is just the govt official class protecting their own.

Propagandhi711 wrote:

smArtha wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

India should charge this woman for filing different contracts and ask for accounting to ensure she spent all the money the Govt allotted her as Perk. Of course, that will never happen - given her SC status and the 1000s of crore corruption cases in India.

You are right. She will never be held accountable. She will most likely return to India as a hero. That's the irony of this entire episode.

GC - Are you being deliberately and selectively blind here not reading some comments on this forum if you cannot follow the Indian media. This is not a specific person or consular officer doing something wrong. She just did what every Indian consular official had been doing for ages. She just happened to be that person who got caught. It is an open thing that the State Department (or at the least the US Embassies in India) know about and are willing to let it pass for ages. This eager Attorney and the maid now broke that unwritten 'don't ask don't tell' thing and created the situation. So this specific Official in herself is not responsible individually and which is why the whole Indian MEA is at work now.

so this reaction is coming from the institution/people that are so used to breaking laws routinely and getting away with special treatment on the basis that they're 'officials' or 'educated' or 'didnt mean any harm' or our own confuzzled's favorite excuse "every one does it, a little corruption is healthy". they're so used to that modus operandi that they're taken aback when one of them gets caught and has to pay a small price. I wonder what MMS's reaction was back when there were H1Bs mistreated in a few high profile incidents. nothing.

this whole episode is just the govt official class protecting their own.

Exactly.
If she was not a Govt. employee , the Indian Govt would have done nothing.

b_A wrote:

Propagandhi711 wrote:

smArtha wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

You are right. She will never be held accountable. She will most likely return to India as a hero. That's the irony of this entire episode.

GC - Are you being deliberately and selectively blind here not reading some comments on this forum if you cannot follow the Indian media. This is not a specific person or consular officer doing something wrong. She just did what every Indian consular official had been doing for ages. She just happened to be that person who got caught. It is an open thing that the State Department (or at the least the US Embassies in India) know about and are willing to let it pass for ages. This eager Attorney and the maid now broke that unwritten 'don't ask don't tell' thing and created the situation. So this specific Official in herself is not responsible individually and which is why the whole Indian MEA is at work now.

so this reaction is coming from the institution/people that are so used to breaking laws routinely and getting away with special treatment on the basis that they're 'officials' or 'educated' or 'didnt mean any harm' or our own confuzzled's favorite excuse "every one does it, a little corruption is healthy". they're so used to that modus operandi that they're taken aback when one of them gets caught and has to pay a small price. I wonder what MMS's reaction was back when there were H1Bs mistreated in a few high profile incidents. nothing.

this whole episode is just the govt official class protecting their own.

Exactly.
If she was not a Govt. employee , the Indian Govt would have done nothing.

The Department of State has been quite restrained in their response. Once their patience runs out, things will get more interesting.

Hellsangel wrote:

b_A wrote:

Propagandhi711 wrote:

smArtha wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:


You are right. She will never be held accountable. She will most likely return to India as a hero. That's the irony of this entire episode.

GC - Are you being deliberately and selectively blind here not reading some comments on this forum if you cannot follow the Indian media. This is not a specific person or consular officer doing something wrong. She just did what every Indian consular official had been doing for ages. She just happened to be that person who got caught. It is an open thing that the State Department (or at the least the US Embassies in India) know about and are willing to let it pass for ages. This eager Attorney and the maid now broke that unwritten 'don't ask don't tell' thing and created the situation. So this specific Official in herself is not responsible individually and which is why the whole Indian MEA is at work now.

so this reaction is coming from the institution/people that are so used to breaking laws routinely and getting away with special treatment on the basis that they're 'officials' or 'educated' or 'didnt mean any harm' or our own confuzzled's favorite excuse "every one does it, a little corruption is healthy". they're so used to that modus operandi that they're taken aback when one of them gets caught and has to pay a small price. I wonder what MMS's reaction was back when there were H1Bs mistreated in a few high profile incidents. nothing.

this whole episode is just the govt official class protecting their own.

Exactly.
If she was not a Govt. employee , the Indian Govt would have done nothing.

The Department of State has been quite restrained in their response. Once their patience runs out, things will get more interesting.

once this typical emotional overreaction subsides and indian 'pride' is restored, they'll fall back quickly into the typical inaction and subservience on things that really matter.

Hellsangel wrote:
The Department of State has been quite restrained in their response. Once their patience runs out, things will get more interesting.

"
India took particular exception to a blistering statement issued Wednesday night by the Indian-born federal prosecutor in Manhattan, who vowed to “uphold the rule of law, protect victims and hold accountable” even the “powerful, rich or connected.”

The statement by U.S. Attorney Preet Bharara appeared to have taken much of the Obama administration, including his own Justice Department bosses, by surprise."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/in-dispute-over-indian-diplomat-an-internal-us-rift-and-many-unanswered-questions/2013/12/19/0a84f21c-68dd-11e3-ae56-22de072140a2_story.html?hpid=z4

-> Indeed, let's hope they ask him not to shed his half-assed pearls of wisdom over another country's hierarchy.

i hope both the indian diplomats and the american diplomats lose all their unlawful privileges. serves them all right.

i can dream, can't i?

MaxEntroy_Man wrote:i am going to write a letter to the white house today after duly informing them of my indian origin where i plan to ask the obama administration to NOT apologize to india for bharara's actions.

Are you gonna be bundling your balls with that letter, or were those already confiscated when you became an American citizen?

SomeProfile wrote:

MaxEntroy_Man wrote:i am going to write a letter to the white house today after duly informing them of my indian origin where i plan to ask the obama administration to NOT apologize to india for bharara's actions.

Are you gonna be bundling your balls with that letter, or were those already confiscated when you became an American citizen?

you have your views and he has his. why not respect the views of other people? if you disagree with Max you can try to pursuade him to your point of view but why insult and abuse just for the heck of it? Do you show up here only after getting drunk?

Can't believe how many of you fuckers got this wrong. Let me tell you guys a story. Max sent his wife and kids to visit friends and family in India during the winter holidays. His kids were staying over at his family friend's house in small town Tamilnadu. Max's daughter, an active child, got into some routine childish trouble. Now, Max's friend has two sons who are real brats. This friend prides himself for being a strict father who accepts no b.s. from kids. He is a veritable hero for parents everywhere who are terrorized by mischievous kids. This burly fella gives one tight slap to Max's daughter. It's such a hard slap, it leaves finger marks on Max's daughter's face. His wife takes a photo of the kid's face with the slap mark and emails it to Max. Max goes ballistic on his friend over the phone, email, voice chat, video chat, sms, etc. Now, let's review this case:

1. Is Max supporting his daughter's wrongdoing? Of course not. Max himself has been sometimes exasperated by his daughter's naughtiness.

2. Is Max defending his daughter's actions? Of course not. Max knows how naughty she can get and he knows that she most probably did do the mistake.

3. Is Max wrong in going ballistic on his friend? After all, his friend routinely hands out such punishment to his own kids, his brother's kids, even his neighbor's kids, and all the parents hail him as a hero. All the parents use his friend's name to scare the kids into behaving. So, shouldn't Max also get down on his knees and thank his friend? Of course not. Max should not thank his friend and he is not wrong in going ballistic on his friend.

4. Why not? Max subscribes to certain civilized norms of how friends treat their friends' children. The norm is that if your friend's child does some mischief in your house, you don't punish the child. You certainly don't punish the child with one tight slap that leaves a mark on her face. You take the complaint up with your friend, the child's parent, and you expect the parent to discipline the child. You expect the parent to make up for any damage the child caused. This is Max's civilized world. His friend has clearly violated the norms of Max's civilized world.

5. While Max's daughter got into trouble and got slapped, Max's son, an active sportsman takes part in a local kabbadi tournament. In that contact sport, he gets jostled and pushed around, and picks up some scrapes here and there. He posts the pictures of his dirty, muddy, scraped arms and legs on Facebook. Does Max get pissed off at some country boys who roughed up his son? No, of course not! Max knows that it was part of the understood and accepted norms when his son joined the kabbadi tournament.

6. After his kids return back to the US, Max's daughter participates in the martial arts tournament with her martial arts class. She gets badly kicked in the face and has a bruise worse than the one that his friend gave her. Is Max happy? No. But does Max get pissed off and go ballistic on the kid who kicked his friend in the martial arts match? No, of course he doesn't. Max once again understands that certain rules and risks were accepted when his daughter participated in the tournament, and that's that.

In this example, the kids staying at the friend's house with the expectation of not being directly punished by the kids is analogous to how diplomats go to foreign countries and stay there and work there. They have certain immunity. The example of Max's son participating in a kabbadi game is analogous to citizens going to a foreign country to visit or work there. They are expected to follow the local laws or risk getting prosecuted. There is no diplomatic immunity there. The last example of Max's daughter participating in an out and out martial arts tournament and getting slapped, is like covert spies being sent to foreign countries for spying. Those guys are fair game for retaliation.

Now was this so hard to understand? No? Then, let's apply this logic to the Khobragade case. She is a diplomat. She had certain immunity. The US authorities should have behaved according to the generally accepted norms by which countries treat foreign diplomats. They didn't. That is what the outrage is about. And that doesn't mean anyone is excusing or supporting or defending whatever Khobragade did or didn't do. All that is irrelevant in this case.

Why should we be outraged and communicate that outrage to the US in ways that has a real effect on the US? For the same reason that you should go ballistic on your friend if he slaps your child, even if your child is in the wrong. There are some boundaries you don't cross, some norms you don't violate. If you do once and get away with it, you are liable to do it again and again. It is not some blind loyalty or brainless patriotism. It's how the real world works. It's practicality.

And I repeat: in this case, it doesn't matter what Khobragade did or didn't do. She should have been treated with the same respect and deference that diplomats get treated. End of story.

Question: As principled Indians, shouldn't our most important concern be justice and civility, and not national pride or national boundaries or international standing?

Answer: If we want to sacrifice national pride, national boundaries and international standing for the sake of some lofty ideals and principles, then we should check out of the international community, go to the top of some hill and meditate. Like it or not, these are the games and rules by which the international community plays. This is how everyone plays the game. If we want to stay in the play ground, this is how we should play too. We can't stay in the playground and refuse to play by the rules of the game, the rules that determine who wins and who loses. We can't accept defeat, we can't lose the match by refusing to even play by the rules. We may think we are some great idealists, but the fact remains that we are the losers of that game. I don't know about mayir-pudungis (pubic-hair pullers) who want to write letters to Barack Obama, but I don't want to be the loser of any game I have decided to play. Nor do I want my country to be the loser of any game that the country is playing, whether we like it or not (which in this case is being part of the international community).

Rashmunni wrote:you have your views and he has his. why not respect the views of other people? if you disagree with Max you can try to pursuade him to your point of view but why insult and abuse just for the heck of it? Do you show up here only after getting drunk?

Sorry, I am unable to understand you. You seem to be speaking with Max's detached balls rolling around in your mouth.

Ha ha ha!:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Devyani-Khobragade-Ashok-Chavan-illegal-beneficiaries-of-Adarsh-society-report-says/articleshow/27689090.cms wrote:
Those found ineligible for ownership of flats included former Maharashtra assembly speaker Babasaheb Kupekar of NCP, senior Indian diplomat in US Devyani Khobragade, former Shiv Sena MP Suresh Prabhu and three relatives of former chief minister Ashok Chavan, who had to step down after the scam surfaced.

Chief minister Prithviraj Chavan said the decision on rejection of the findings of the inquiry commission was taken by the Cabinet "in the interest of the people".

He, however, refused to elaborate on how the Cabinet's decision was in larger public interest.

She is a serial abuser of the law used to falsifying paperwork in getting whatever she wants. And the government and internet patriots are up in arms "defending" her, "showing spine" and "restoring the dignity" of the country. What a joke.

SomeProfile wrote:Can't believe how many of you fuckers got this wrong. Let me tell you guys a story. Max sent his wife and kids to visit friends and family in India during the winter holidays. His kids were staying over at his family friend's house in small town Tamilnadu. Max's daughter, an active child, got into some routine childish trouble. Now, Max's friend has two sons who are real brats. This friend prides himself for being a strict father who accepts no b.s. from kids. He is a veritable hero for parents everywhere who are terrorized by mischievous kids. This burly fella gives one tight slap to Max's daughter. It's such a hard slap, it leaves finger marks on Max's daughter's face. His wife takes a photo of the kid's face with the slap mark and emails it to Max. Max goes ballistic on his friend over the phone, email, voice chat, video chat, sms, etc. Now, let's review this case:

1. Is Max supporting his daughter's wrongdoing? Of course not. Max himself has been sometimes exasperated by his daughter's naughtiness.

2. Is Max defending his daughter's actions? Of course not. Max knows how naughty she can get and he knows that she most probably did do the mistake.

3. Is Max wrong in going ballistic on his friend? After all, his friend routinely hands out such punishment to his own kids, his brother's kids, even his neighbor's kids, and all the parents hail him as a hero. All the parents use his friend's name to scare the kids into behaving. So, shouldn't Max also get down on his knees and thank his friend? Of course not. Max should not thank his friend and he is not wrong in going ballistic on his friend.

4. Why not? Max subscribes to certain civilized norms of how friends treat their friends' children. The norm is that if your friend's child does some mischief in your house, you don't punish the child. You certainly don't punish the child with one tight slap that leaves a mark on her face. You take the complaint up with your friend, the child's parent, and you expect the parent to discipline the child. You expect the parent to make up for any damage the child caused. This is Max's civilized world. His friend has clearly violated the norms of Max's civilized world.

5. While Max's daughter got into trouble and got slapped, Max's son, an active sportsman takes part in a local kabbadi tournament. In that contact sport, he gets jostled and pushed around, and picks up some scrapes here and there. He posts the pictures of his dirty, muddy, scraped arms and legs on Facebook. Does Max get pissed off at some country boys who roughed up his son? No, of course not! Max knows that it was part of the understood and accepted norms when his son joined the kabbadi tournament.

6. After his kids return back to the US, Max's daughter participates in the martial arts tournament with her martial arts class. She gets badly kicked in the face and has a bruise worse than the one that his friend gave her. Is Max happy? No. But does Max get pissed off and go ballistic on the kid who kicked his friend in the martial arts match? No, of course he doesn't. Max once again understands that certain rules and risks were accepted when his daughter participated in the tournament, and that's that.

In this example, the kids staying at the friend's house with the expectation of not being directly punished by the kids is analogous to how diplomats go to foreign countries and stay there and work there. They have certain immunity. The example of Max's son participating in a kabbadi game is analogous to citizens going to a foreign country to visit or work there. They are expected to follow the local laws or risk getting prosecuted. There is no diplomatic immunity there. The last example of Max's daughter participating in an out and out martial arts tournament and getting slapped, is like covert spies being sent to foreign countries for spying. Those guys are fair game for retaliation.

Now was this so hard to understand? No? Then, let's apply this logic to the Khobragade case. She is a diplomat. She had certain immunity. The US authorities should have behaved according to the generally accepted norms by which countries treat foreign diplomats. They didn't. That is what the outrage is about. And that doesn't mean anyone is excusing or supporting or defending whatever Khobragade did or didn't do. All that is irrelevant in this case.

Why should we be outraged and communicate that outrage to the US in ways that has a real effect on the US? For the same reason that you should go ballistic on your friend if he slaps your child, even if your child is in the wrong. There are some boundaries you don't cross, some norms you don't violate. If you do once and get away with it, you are liable to do it again and again. It is not some blind loyalty or brainless patriotism. It's how the real world works. It's practicality.

And I repeat: in this case, it doesn't matter what Khobragade did or didn't do. She should have been treated with the same respect and deference that diplomats get treated. End of story.

Question: As principled Indians, shouldn't our most important concern be justice and civility, and not national pride or national boundaries or international standing?

Answer: If we want to sacrifice national pride, national boundaries and international standing for the sake of some lofty ideals and principles, then we should check out of the international community, go to the top of some hill and meditate. Like it or not, these are the games and rules by which the international community plays. This is how everyone plays the game. If we want to stay in the play ground, this is how we should play too. We can't stay in the playground and refuse to play by the rules of the game, the rules that determine who wins and who loses. We can't accept defeat, we can't lose the match by refusing to even play by the rules. We may think we are some great idealists, but the fact remains that we are the losers of that game. I don't know about mayir-pudungis (pubic-hair pullers) who want to write letters to Barack Obama, but I don't want to be the loser of any game I have decided to play. Nor do I want my country to be the loser of any game that the country is playing, whether we like it or not (which in this case is being part of the international community).

No father who beats up kids is a veritable hero to any responsible parent. Your premise is flawed. The rest is too long to read.

Hellsangel wrote:Ha ha ha!:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Devyani-Khobragade-Ashok-Chavan-illegal-beneficiaries-of-Adarsh-society-report-says/articleshow/27689090.cms wrote:
Those found ineligible for ownership of flats included former Maharashtra assembly speaker Babasaheb Kupekar of NCP, senior Indian diplomat in US Devyani Khobragade, former Shiv Sena MP Suresh Prabhu and three relatives of former chief minister Ashok Chavan, who had to step down after the scam surfaced.

Chief minister Prithviraj Chavan said the decision on rejection of the findings of the inquiry commission was taken by the Cabinet "in the interest of the people".

He, however, refused to elaborate on how the Cabinet's decision was in larger public interest.

Good link, HA, and an interesting find! How quickly the Indian media can make a witch into Mother Teresa! I feel sorry for those real patriots of India who have been duped by all the media blitz.

nevada wrote:She is a serial abuser of the law used to falsifying paperwork in getting whatever she wants. And the government and internet patriots are up in arms "defending" her, "showing spine" and "restoring the dignity" of the country. What a joke.

+1 brother.

goodcitizn wrote:

nevada wrote:She is a serial abuser of the law used to falsifying paperwork in getting whatever she wants. And the government and internet patriots are up in arms "defending" her, "showing spine" and "restoring the dignity" of the country. What a joke.

+1 brother.

you think other diplomats on US soil are not serial offenders? and that you justify US from refraining to prosecute them and that from among its own diplomats (US diplomats) US is justified in providing them shelter for abuse of maids and servants on foreign soil? what do you say brother? will you give me a +1 brother?

Brigadier HK (Retd) wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:

nevada wrote:She is a serial abuser of the law used to falsifying paperwork in getting whatever she wants. And the government and internet patriots are up in arms "defending" her, "showing spine" and "restoring the dignity" of the country. What a joke.

+1 brother.

you think other diplomats on US soil are not serial offenders? and that you justify US from refraining to prosecute them and that from among its own diplomats (US diplomats) US is justified in providing them shelter for abuse of maids and servants on foreign soil? what do you say brother? will you give me a +1 brother?

My +1 pertains to this case. I can prepare my own list, in addition to yours, of offenses committed globally. In this case, it is my view that making a hero out of Devyani is pathetic and speaks poorly of the standards of morality and legality we place on ourselves as good citizens.

தவறு என்பது தவறிச் செய்வது
தப்பு என்பது தெரிந்து செய்வது

தவறு செய்தவன் திருந்தப் பார்க்கணும்
தப்பு செய்தவன் வருந்தியாகணும்
---------

goodcitizn wrote:

Brigadier HK (Retd) wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:

nevada wrote:She is a serial abuser of the law used to falsifying paperwork in getting whatever she wants. And the government and internet patriots are up in arms "defending" her, "showing spine" and "restoring the dignity" of the country. What a joke.

+1 brother.

you think other diplomats on US soil are not serial offenders? and that you justify US from refraining to prosecute them and that from among its own diplomats (US diplomats) US is justified in providing them shelter for abuse of maids and servants on foreign soil? what do you say brother? will you give me a +1 brother?

My +1 pertains to this case. I can prepare my own list, in addition to yours, of offenses committed globally. In this case, it is my view that making a hero out of Devyani is pathetic and speaks poorly of the standards of morality and legality we place on ourselves as good citizens.

why is it confined to this case? why are you oblivious of the reality of the context? who are so focussed on corruption in india which is highly tangential to this issue? i would have taken you more seriously if you were an indian maid in india fighting for servants's rights. perhaps you are posting in the wrong thread? there are seveal other threads active in such about lokpal.

FluteHolder wrote:தப்பு என்பது தெரிந்து செய்வது
தவறு என்பது தவறிச் செய்வது
தவறு செய்தவன் திருந்தப் பார்க்கணும்
தப்பு செய்தவன் வருந்தியாகணும்

Lovely lines. Reminds me of another song by Pattukkottai ...

Sindhithu paarthu seigaiyai maathu
Sirusa irukkaiyil thiruthikko, thavaru
Sirusa irukkaiyil thiruthikko
Therinjum theriyaamal nadandhuputtaa
Adhu thirumbavum varaama paarthukko

Brigadier HK (Retd) wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:

Brigadier HK (Retd) wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:

nevada wrote:She is a serial abuser of the law used to falsifying paperwork in getting whatever she wants. And the government and internet patriots are up in arms "defending" her, "showing spine" and "restoring the dignity" of the country. What a joke.

+1 brother.

you think other diplomats on US soil are not serial offenders? and that you justify US from refraining to prosecute them and that from among its own diplomats (US diplomats) US is justified in providing them shelter for abuse of maids and servants on foreign soil? what do you say brother? will you give me a +1 brother?

My +1 pertains to this case. I can prepare my own list, in addition to yours, of offenses committed globally. In this case, it is my view that making a hero out of Devyani is pathetic and speaks poorly of the standards of morality and legality we place on ourselves as good citizens.

why is it confined to this case? why are you oblivious of the reality of the context? who are so focussed on corruption in india which is highly tangential to this issue? i would have taken you more seriously if you were an indian maid in india fighting for servants's rights. perhaps you are posting in the wrong thread? there are seveal other threads active in such about lokpal.

Devyani involved indirectly in Adarsh Scam is tangential to you?

SomeProfile wrote:Can't believe how many of you fuckers got this wrong. Let me tell you guys a story. Max sent his wife and kids to visit friends and family in India during the winter holidays. His kids were staying over at his family friend's house in small town Tamilnadu. Max's daughter, an active child, got into some routine childish trouble. Now, Max's friend has two sons who are real brats. This friend prides himself for being a strict father who accepts no b.s. from kids. He is a veritable hero for parents everywhere who are terrorized by mischievous kids. This burly fella gives one tight slap to Max's daughter. It's such a hard slap, it leaves finger marks on Max's daughter's face. His wife takes a photo of the kid's face with the slap mark and emails it to Max. Max goes ballistic on his friend over the phone, email, voice chat, video chat, sms, etc. Now, let's review this case:

1. Is Max supporting his daughter's wrongdoing? Of course not. Max himself has been sometimes exasperated by his daughter's naughtiness.

2. Is Max defending his daughter's actions? Of course not. Max knows how naughty she can get and he knows that she most probably did do the mistake.

3. Is Max wrong in going ballistic on his friend? After all, his friend routinely hands out such punishment to his own kids, his brother's kids, even his neighbor's kids, and all the parents hail him as a hero. All the parents use his friend's name to scare the kids into behaving. So, shouldn't Max also get down on his knees and thank his friend? Of course not. Max should not thank his friend and he is not wrong in going ballistic on his friend.

4. Why not? Max subscribes to certain civilized norms of how friends treat their friends' children. The norm is that if your friend's child does some mischief in your house, you don't punish the child. You certainly don't punish the child with one tight slap that leaves a mark on her face. You take the complaint up with your friend, the child's parent, and you expect the parent to discipline the child. You expect the parent to make up for any damage the child caused. This is Max's civilized world. His friend has clearly violated the norms of Max's civilized world.

5. While Max's daughter got into trouble and got slapped, Max's son, an active sportsman takes part in a local kabbadi tournament. In that contact sport, he gets jostled and pushed around, and picks up some scrapes here and there. He posts the pictures of his dirty, muddy, scraped arms and legs on Facebook. Does Max get pissed off at some country boys who roughed up his son? No, of course not! Max knows that it was part of the understood and accepted norms when his son joined the kabbadi tournament.

6. After his kids return back to the US, Max's daughter participates in the martial arts tournament with her martial arts class. She gets badly kicked in the face and has a bruise worse than the one that his friend gave her. Is Max happy? No. But does Max get pissed off and go ballistic on the kid who kicked his friend in the martial arts match? No, of course he doesn't. Max once again understands that certain rules and risks were accepted when his daughter participated in the tournament, and that's that.

In this example, the kids staying at the friend's house with the expectation of not being directly punished by the kids is analogous to how diplomats go to foreign countries and stay there and work there. They have certain immunity. The example of Max's son participating in a kabbadi game is analogous to citizens going to a foreign country to visit or work there. They are expected to follow the local laws or risk getting prosecuted. There is no diplomatic immunity there. The last example of Max's daughter participating in an out and out martial arts tournament and getting slapped, is like covert spies being sent to foreign countries for spying. Those guys are fair game for retaliation.

Now was this so hard to understand? No? Then, let's apply this logic to the Khobragade case. She is a diplomat. She had certain immunity. The US authorities should have behaved according to the generally accepted norms by which countries treat foreign diplomats. They didn't. That is what the outrage is about. And that doesn't mean anyone is excusing or supporting or defending whatever Khobragade did or didn't do. All that is irrelevant in this case.

Why should we be outraged and communicate that outrage to the US in ways that has a real effect on the US? For the same reason that you should go ballistic on your friend if he slaps your child, even if your child is in the wrong. There are some boundaries you don't cross, some norms you don't violate. If you do once and get away with it, you are liable to do it again and again. It is not some blind loyalty or brainless patriotism. It's how the real world works. It's practicality.

And I repeat: in this case, it doesn't matter what Khobragade did or didn't do. She should have been treated with the same respect and deference that diplomats get treated. End of story.

Question: As principled Indians, shouldn't our most important concern be justice and civility, and not national pride or national boundaries or international standing?

Answer: If we want to sacrifice national pride, national boundaries and international standing for the sake of some lofty ideals and principles, then we should check out of the international community, go to the top of some hill and meditate. Like it or not, these are the games and rules by which the international community plays. This is how everyone plays the game. If we want to stay in the play ground, this is how we should play too. We can't stay in the playground and refuse to play by the rules of the game, the rules that determine who wins and who loses. We can't accept defeat, we can't lose the match by refusing to even play by the rules. We may think we are some great idealists, but the fact remains that we are the losers of that game. I don't know about mayir-pudungis (pubic-hair pullers) who want to write letters to Barack Obama, but I don't want to be the loser of any game I have decided to play. Nor do I want my country to be the loser of any game that the country is playing, whether we like it or not (which in this case is being part of the international community).

miles of drivel deleted. flawed analogy. we are talking about adults with a discerning brain, not little children. please acquire a new brain. this one has been lost to senility.

goodcitizn wrote:

Brigadier HK (Retd) wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:

Brigadier HK (Retd) wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:

+1 brother.

you think other diplomats on US soil are not serial offenders? and that you justify US from refraining to prosecute them and that from among its own diplomats (US diplomats) US is justified in providing them shelter for abuse of maids and servants on foreign soil? what do you say brother? will you give me a +1 brother?

My +1 pertains to this case. I can prepare my own list, in addition to yours, of offenses committed globally. In this case, it is my view that making a hero out of Devyani is pathetic and speaks poorly of the standards of morality and legality we place on ourselves as good citizens.

why is it confined to this case? why are you oblivious of the reality of the context? who are so focussed on corruption in india which is highly tangential to this issue? i would have taken you more seriously if you were an indian maid in india fighting for servants's rights. perhaps you are posting in the wrong thread? there are seveal other threads active in such about lokpal.

Devyani involved indirectly in Adarsh Scam is tangential to you?

YES. you, who are so fond of taking things case by case -- what does the instant case in her capacity as consul general (not deputy) have to do with her past deeds? please don't take me otherise but you are talking like a kombolete idiot unless you prove me otherwise using such diplomacy.

Brigadier HK (Retd) wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:

Brigadier HK (Retd) wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:

Brigadier HK (Retd) wrote:
you think other diplomats on US soil are not serial offenders? and that you justify US from refraining to prosecute them and that from among its own diplomats (US diplomats) US is justified in providing them shelter for abuse of maids and servants on foreign soil? what do you say brother? will you give me a +1 brother?

My +1 pertains to this case. I can prepare my own list, in addition to yours, of offenses committed globally. In this case, it is my view that making a hero out of Devyani is pathetic and speaks poorly of the standards of morality and legality we place on ourselves as good citizens.

why is it confined to this case? why are you oblivious of the reality of the context? who are so focussed on corruption in india which is highly tangential to this issue? i would have taken you more seriously if you were an indian maid in india fighting for servants's rights. perhaps you are posting in the wrong thread? there are seveal other threads active in such about lokpal.

Devyani involved indirectly in Adarsh Scam is tangential to you?

YES. you, who are so fond of taking things case by case -- what does the instant case in her capacity as consul general (not deputy) have to do with her past deeds? please don't take me otherise but you are talking like a kombolete idiot unless you prove me otherwise using such diplomacy. .

You obviously slept through the class when propensity for crime was discussed.

goodcitizn wrote:

Brigadier HK (Retd) wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:

Brigadier HK (Retd) wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:

My +1 pertains to this case. I can prepare my own list, in addition to yours, of offenses committed globally. In this case, it is my view that making a hero out of Devyani is pathetic and speaks poorly of the standards of morality and legality we place on ourselves as good citizens.

why is it confined to this case? why are you oblivious of the reality of the context? who are so focussed on corruption in india which is highly tangential to this issue? i would have taken you more seriously if you were an indian maid in india fighting for servants's rights. perhaps you are posting in the wrong thread? there are seveal other threads active in such about lokpal.

Devyani involved indirectly in Adarsh Scam is tangential to you?

YES. you, who are so fond of taking things case by case -- what does the instant case in her capacity as consul general (not deputy) have to do with her past deeds? please don't take me otherise but you are talking like a kombolete idiot unless you prove me otherwise using such diplomacy. .

You obviously slept through the class when propensity for crime was discussed.

talk chinese. tangential englese no comprehendo. what are you trying to say mister?

An interesting snippet. How did she get clearance?:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Retroactive-immunity-could-resolve-Devyani-Khobragade-standoff/articleshow/27695882.cms wrote: Khobragade is married to an Indian-American.

Ha ,
so the Indian American husband explains why devyani was not sent back after September. may be she thought she could eat the cake and have the cake too.
Indians and greed go together.

Hellsangel wrote:An interesting snippet. How did she get clearance?:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Retroactive-immunity-could-resolve-Devyani-Khobragade-standoff/articleshow/27695882.cms wrote: Khobragade is married to an Indian-American.

Per post:

"On her first posting, in Germany, she met an academic, Akash Singh, who would become her husband — “a love marriage,” her father said. The couple has two daughters, ages 7 and 4.

Managing two careers and global posts was difficult, but the pair made it work, Khobragade has said"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/indias-devyani-khobragade-advocated-for-womens-rights-but-underpaid-her-nanny/2013/12/20/13e23688-69a2-11e3-8b5b-a77187b716a3_story.html

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:miles of drivel deleted. flawed analogy. we are talking about adults with a discerning brain, not little children. please acquire a new brain. this one has been lost to senility.

Poda mair-pudungi! (Get lost pubic-hair-puller!) Your deleting my comment has about as much effect as your writing a letter to Obama. My comment is still up there published and visible. Your letter to Obama is gonna be trashed just like all the other thousands of loony letters written to him. Look who is talking about senility!

Here's the thing about analogy - they seek to draw equivalence on certain key characteristics of the things that are being compared. Not on all the characteristics. As such the age factor here is irrelevant. Your idiotic response is like listening to a parable involving animal characters (Eg: Grasshopper & the Ant or Hare & the Tortoise) and saying it is irrelevant to human life because we are not animals. Look who is talking about discerning brain!

And guys like you are supposed to be professors in colleges. Isn't there some basic course in rational arguments, figures of speech, logic and such that you can take to improve yourself? Do one thing - when you send that letter to Mr Obama, send your PhD diploma also to be trashed along with your letter.

The US wouldn't have done this if Khobragade was a Chinese diplomat. You wouldn't be talking like a ball-less mair-pudungi (pubic-hair-puller) if Khobragade was a Tamizh-ponnu (Tamil girl). End of story.

Vandhutta paarungoda, periya paruppu, Obama-vukku kadithaacchi ezhutha! (Look at the great nut who has come to write letter to Obama!)

Edit: Provided translation of Tamil phrases.

goodcitizn wrote:No father who beats up kids is a veritable hero to any responsible parent. Your premise is flawed.

Thanks for making my point. No father who beats up kids is a hero, just like no authority who treats foreign diplomats against the acceptable conventions of international behavior should be a hero. So, why are you guys so eager to lick Bharara's balls again? I mean, seriously, what the fuck does it take for an American District Attorney to mistreat an Indian given India's history of being a soft state? Nothing, not at all!

FluteHolder wrote:Some interesting comments from Times of india link. I think DK is in real soup/mess.

======
Looking at the three different options my personal views :
1)retroactive immunity : Seems pretty good for this girl, but she can never ever be a green card holder or a US citizen, keeping in mind her husband is a US citizen. So here we are talking that as long as she under the Diplomatic Immunity from UN, she go and come back to the US, but every time she lands here, US immigration can see a pop up screen about her pending crime, they will question it, and she will produce her Diplomatic passport. The outstanding arrest warrant will be entered into the records of the National Crime Information Center (NCIC). So that means she on her husbands behalf can never apply for a green card and later for US citizenship. So she can never come to USA. Once she looses or retires from the UN, she looses her Diplomatic Immunity and now Ms. Khobragade could be forced to face prosecution after expiry of her immunity or if she returns to the US again in a private capacity.
2) The second option was about US attorney Preet Bharara could determine that he wouldn't pursue the case because of her immunity. This could make his reputation at stake, this dude was popular, now with all this mess, he has been more popular than ever. Is it worth taking the risk and loosing his reputation, is another story to watch.
3) A payout to domestic help Sangeeta Richard and a consequent dropping of charges against Khobragade. Ms. Richard if you see this mail, all I can do is give you a good advise, do not settle for less. Aim for the spread over 1,076 square feet in Adarsh society. That is big money. Now don't just get the paper works in India, India and Indian systems are cheaters. So get the paper work sitting here, through an attorney, sell the flat, get the money converted to $$'s, and pay the required t ax, and get it here to USA.
================
THE VERDICT IS IN ... -------------
1. American will not apologize
2. Serial fraudster Devyani Khobragade's criminal charges will not be dropped
LESSONS LEARNED? ------------------
1. Never challenge a powerful country from a weak position
2. Never even think about bullying a world power
3. Never even think of threaten America - even in your dreams
4. Never commit a crime on American soil and expect to escape through back door like in India
5. Never open a publicity stunt and make rash, stupid and empty threats in meida
6. Never ever forget that we do not have a moral authority in justice
7. Never forget that India is ranked at the bottom of every good category in the world. That does not command respect
8. Never forget that the people of advanced countries do not have respect for political dynasties. It makes them think of us as primitive, exploitative, backward and like a banna republic. Sometimes it makes them them think that ................... Sonia Gandhi is Mahatma Gandhi's Daughter.

But, I am not so sure if Akash Singh is a US citizen. This guy has been post-docing and visiting professoring everywhere on 1, 2 yr stints. Did his PhD in Europe. need more info to prove he is a US Citizen (I very much doubt it). ToI would have stated that but then it is an idiotic paper.

If Akash Singh is indeed is a US Citizen - Devyani might not have been charged. If he is not a US Citizen, she is in soup given the spineless Indian Govt.

A Chinese/Russian/Saudi Dy Consul General would not have been charged and arrested even for attempted murders.

Very hard to believe that a house maid - only 6months in the country - will have the guts to walk out and into a police station accusing her boss of underpaying - while her husband and kids still India...

Dont forget Indians start peeing in their pants when they see a flashing light in their rear view mirror (even if they are GC Holders). So unless, the maid has been coached, guided, and instructed she would no thave complained to even her close friend - let alone walk into a NYPD police station. Dr. Barara and the whole State Dept on the case bcz some phoren maid got only $3.31.

GIVE ME A BREAK.

Then who and why is someone behind all this? If people really believe that she walked in BOLDLY and complained about getting paid $3.31/hr then they are naive of the highest order.

BTW, If North Korea and Cuba can thumb its nose against Uncle Sam, India is certainly capable of it. Of course, not the CONmen, Dynasty headed by an Italian - whose mother/sister lives in the US - will ever do anything against their "Own personal" interest.

FluteHolder wrote:
4. Never commit a crime on American soil and expect to escape through back door like in India

That's right, we reserve that right just to ourselves; Nannygate, O.J, Zimmerman so on so forth