Re: Hindi in canadian school

by charvaka Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:47 pm

artood2 wrote:No I am making the point on the basis of improvement in literacy rate from 2001 census to 2011 census. India is near 74%. all the bimaru states have made significant progress. And as I mentioned, literate folks are not going to let their offsprings go illiterate so the current funding levels are adequate.

You are assuming that additional funding cannot push that rate above that level. In other words, you are assuming that what we did between 2001 and 2011 was the best we could possibly have done. You believe this without bothering to even look for the amount spent on literacy programs, etc.

R2D2 wrote:This is toally related. A better link langauge allows for better assimilation (or cross pollination). You connect better and they are your neighbours and not "people from Karnataka". Better bonding makes people treat them as one of their own. they figure that these guys suffer as much from water problems as them. I am not going to look up "Uzbek-Kirgiz". Has there ever been a time in history when there have been no fights in central asia/middle east?

I am sorry, but this is laughable. You think the Kannadiga and Tamil people of Bangalore fought because they couldn't understand each other? The multigenerational Tamil settlers in Bangalore speak Kannada. As do similar Kannadiga settlers in Tamil Nadu.

artood2 wrote:so will it be easier to pick hindi or english?

Based on the experiences of people around me, English. It is not because of the inherent structures of the languages, vocabularies, grammars of any such elements. It is simply because of the ubiquity of exposure to English -- as compared to Hindi -- in everyday life.

by charvaka Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:50 pm

artood2 wrote:
charvaka wrote:
artood2 wrote:What I am saying is that resources are adequate and you cannot make it any faster. The population lagging in literacy is in the old age group. those guys are not keen on learning anything and money spent there would not improve anything.
How do you know that? Do you have any data to prove your assertions?

I posted the literacy data. I have not seen data against it.

Your post only shows change in literacy rates.

The data points you need before you can say with conviction that we are not short of resources on the literacy front are:

1. Age and gender-wise distribution of literacy in various states
2. Changes to those parameters in the last 10 years
3. Amount of money spent to bring out those changes (broken out by target age and gender groups)

Without that, you can't possibly know whether the right amount of resources have been thrown at the problem, and whether all the illiteracy out there is among the "older" people.

by Guest Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:51 pm

Shiv Sena supremo Balasaheb Thackeray answers criticism against his
party’s often violent agitations in Mumbai by citing the long history of
anti-Hindi agitations in Tamil Nadu. He points to the state’s official
policy that has led to insignificant use of Hindi in Tamil Nadu.
Thackeray’s sense of history is impeccable because Tamil Nadu
established the supremacy of Tamil through blood, in much greater
intensity than the Sainiks do on the streets of Mumbai.

But Thackeray may have missed a finer point. Life has come full
circle for Tamils. Today, Hindi is the most popular third language for
the younger generation to learn across the state. “Everybody who once
opposed Hindi is praising it now and sending their children to learn the
language,” says C N V Annamalai, general secretary of the Chennai-based
Dakshina Bharat Hindi Prachar Sabha.

Bollywood news is devoured, migrant labourers from Bihar have
begun coming in, and politicians are learning Hindi to be able to make
an impact in Delhi..........

Meanwhile, the Hindi Prachar Sabha is quite busy. As many as 600,000
students appear for its exams in Tamil Nadu each year, a number that is
growing at 20 percent. In 1965, at the height of anti-Hindi protests,
the number was less than 20,000. “The anti-Hindi agitation basically did
our job. It raised curiosity among the people and brought them to us,”
says Annamalai.

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/forbes-india-tamil-nadu-rediscovers-hindi/110516-3.html

-------
Max, you have some figures now. Please show some intellectual honesty and acknowledge that a hindi renaissance is taking place in Tamil Nadu.

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:52 pm

Rashmun wrote:

--> why the silence on Bharathi's views on hindi?

because i find your method of justifying an argument by invoking historical figures instead of debating the merits and demerits using your own reasoned arguments tiresome. bharathi lived in a different era. i adore his poetry and love his eccentricities, but he lived in a different era with very different motivations.

by artood2 Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:53 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
artood2 wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:logic has never been a strong suit of the hindi pushing gang. their entire rationale for hindi pushing has been upended many times by reasoned argument over at sulekha and now here; but they will not go away, for theirs is a mission fueled by a strong conviction that india is hindia. in that sense they and kayal vizhi are of one mind.

Sir, please avoid the rhetoric and comeback with better arguments. you have more similarity with KV on thsi POV. i am yet to see any conincing argument which has been made. And sir you cna not judge on logic when you are seriously lacking in that department.

i have already given all the reasoned arguments i can possibly give. so has carvaka as is evident reading this thread. it is impossible to say anything more, other than that you have no case.

the reason for your similarity with KV is this -- she claims that india is already hindia. you on the other hand don't think it is, yet that is, but would like to push in that direction. i OTOH don't think india is hindia at least at this point in time, and want to maintain status quo forever.

As i said logic is not your strong point. Your argument has been an economic one and it is not even 1% of outlay. you think mocking of accents is a paramount issue and that shows your lack of knowledge (as in who/what else gets mocked in movies and how oftern English Scouse/Geordie accents get mocked with English speakers). India is India it was never Hindia and will never will be. And using Hindi as a link language does not amke it Hindia either. you are not asked to abandon your culture, just learn enough to communicate with others. and I do not want to waste my time pointing out your similarities to KV, as it does help my point of the need of a link language and English not being that language.

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:55 pm

Rashmun wrote:
Max, you have some figures now. Please show some intellectual honesty and acknowledge that a hindi renaissance is taking place in Tamil Nadu.

please show me the evidence that people who have the opportunity to learn hindi or english are preferring to learn hindi over english.

by Guest Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:02 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Max, you have some figures now. Please show some intellectual honesty and acknowledge that a hindi renaissance is taking place in Tamil Nadu.

please show me the evidence that people who have the opportunity to learn hindi or english are preferring to learn hindi over english.

--> i am unable to give this evidence, but here is some evidence of tamilians preferring hindi over tamil:

Chennai: Their grandfathers took to the streets, raised
slogans and even went to prison, protesting against the “imposition” of
Hindi in Tamil Nadu in the 1960s. More than four decades later, many
Tamil kids are studying the “rashtra bhasha” even before they can pick
up the alphabets of their mother tongue.

Raj and Aruna did not think twice when they got a note from their
son’s school to specify the second language they wanted their kid to
learn from first standard onwards. Their unanimous choice was Hindi.

In fact, about 90% of their son’s classmates will be studying Hindi
as the second language, as young parents feel their children’s horizon
should extend beyond the boundaries of the state.

“At a time when we are talking about a global village, we cannot say
no to Hindi anymore. Once we cross the state’s borders, we need to know
Hindi for survival. I don’t want my son to be handicapped due to lack
of knowledge of Hindi,” said Raj, a software professional.

“Unlike those in government jobs, people working in the private
sector have to shuttle from one state to another. Hindi comes in handy
at such times,” said Aarthi, a HR manager in a private firm.

However, the new-found love for Hindi is not going down well with
the older generation. Soundararajan, a retired state government
employee, regrets that his grandchildren are’t learning Tamil. “I am not
against Hindi, but feel that children should learn to read and write
their mother tongue first.”

“We have been advising parents to opt for Tamil as it is the state
language. Though we tell them that their children still get to learn
Hindi as a second language in the upper classes, parents clamour for
Hindi,” said a teacher working for a leading CBSE school.

State public works minister Duraimurugan, one of the prominent student
leaders who participated in the anti-Hindi agitation in 1965, said only
the elite prefer Hindi over Tamil.

http://epaper.timesofindia.com/Repository/ml.asp?Ref=VE9JQkcvMjAwOS8wMi8wMyNBcjAxMTAx

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:04 pm

all anecdotal. not worth the (toilet) paper (of india) it's written on.

by artood2 Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:14 pm

charvaka wrote:
artood2 wrote:No I am making the point on the basis of improvement in literacy rate from 2001 census to 2011 census. India is near 74%. all the bimaru states have made significant progress. And as I mentioned, literate folks are not going to let their offsprings go illiterate so the current funding levels are adequate.

You are assuming that additional funding cannot push that rate above that level. In other words, you are assuming that what we did between 2001 and 2011 was the best we could possibly have done. You believe this without bothering to even look for the amount spent on literacy programs, etc.

I am sorry to say this but your arguments have not included any numbers so far. I have a theory and the overall numbers support that theory that improvement is there at a very good rate. I have not seen any numbers to the contrary. You are welcome to show the numbers and negate the theory.

R2D2 wrote:This is toally related. A better link langauge allows for better assimilation (or cross pollination). You connect better and they are your neighbours and not "people from Karnataka". Better bonding makes people treat them as one of their own. they figure that these guys suffer as much from water problems as them. I am not going to look up "Uzbek-Kirgiz". Has there ever been a time in history when there have been no fights in central asia/middle east?

I am sorry, but this is laughable. You think the Kannadiga and Tamil people of Bangalore fought because they couldn't understand each other? The multigenerational Tamil settlers in Bangalore speak Kannada. As do similar Kannadiga settlers in Tamil Nadu.

YEs this was precisely my point of institutionalisation of language barriers through creation of states. It was not a question of understanding, it was the question of assimilation (something that you said is not necessary). A common link language forges better assimilation. Do you have an explanation on why a geographical problem became a language problem?

artood2 wrote:so will it be easier to pick hindi or english?

Based on the experiences of people around me, English. It is not because of the inherent structures of the languages, vocabularies, grammars of any such elements. It is simply because of the ubiquity of exposure to English -- as compared to Hindi -- in everyday life.

Ubiquity of exposure to English : where? English is ubiquitous in rural areas where 65% of the poopulation lives?

by artood2 Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:17 pm

charvaka wrote:
artood2 wrote:
charvaka wrote:
artood2 wrote:What I am saying is that resources are adequate and you cannot make it any faster. The population lagging in literacy is in the old age group. those guys are not keen on learning anything and money spent there would not improve anything.
How do you know that? Do you have any data to prove your assertions?

I posted the literacy data. I have not seen data against it.
Your post only shows change in literacy rates.

The data points you need before you can say with conviction that we are not short of resources on the literacy front are:

1. Age and gender-wise distribution of literacy in various states
2. Changes to those parameters in the last 10 years
3. Amount of money spent to bring out those changes (broken out by target age and gender groups)

Without that, you can't possibly know whether the right amount of resources have been thrown at the problem, and whether all the illiteracy out there is among the "older" people.

You can do the same to show how it is not adequate. Gender is a problem. women are lagging and govt can reallocate more on women side (as they have been doing). The data you ask are not readily available. However the rate of overall increase is good and does not point to lack of resourcing. There is a gender disparity and if lack of funding would have been the issue, that disparity should have impacted both groups similarly. Again you can bring out the numbers and tell me why my argument is wrong.

by Ponniyin Selvan Fri Aug 05, 2011 7:38 pm

Living in Tamilnadu, I see the arguments of "Hindi as a link language" pushers as quite funny.

Unlike what Rashmun says, people are not rioting to learn Hindi. The newspapers and magazines I see on the stands are in Tamil, English and Telugu/Malayalam. I was surprised to see Telugu newspapers , but then I should not be surprised since Chennai is home to many Telugus.

As I have said repeatedly, India is more like European Union with diverse languages / cultures etc.. than any other mono lingual country. The concept of a single language to unite us all is passe.

The arguments against English during the 1950s / 60s were due to the hard feelings of British colonialism. Once that went away, i don't think even folks from the North now are against English. and their zeal to see Hindi throughout is vanishing too.

by Guest Fri Aug 05, 2011 7:53 pm

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:Living in Tamilnadu, I see the arguments of "Hindi as a link language" pushers as quite funny.

Unlike what Rashmun says, people are not rioting to learn Hindi. The newspapers and magazines I see on the stands are in Tamil, English and Telugu/Malayalam. I was surprised to see Telugu newspapers , but then I should not be surprised since Chennai is home to many Telugus.

As I have said repeatedly, India is more like European Union with diverse languages / cultures etc.. than any other mono lingual country. The concept of a single language to unite us all is passe.

The arguments against English during the 1950s / 60s were due to the hard feelings of British colonialism. Once that went away, i don't think even folks from the North now are against English. and their zeal to see Hindi throughout is vanishing too.

hindi prachar sabha - Hindi in canadian school - Page 5 28what

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1110628/jsp/frontpage/story_14169671.jsp

by Ponniyin Selvan Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:25 pm

What is your point?. Are people rioting against the government to change its policy to learn Hindi?.

Coming to your graph,

The name of the Sabha itself says "Dakshina Bharat". I'm not sure why the red box is named All India. All the other states except Tamilnadu have Hindi in their schooling system, so it makes sense that people who OPT to ADDITIONALLY learn Hindi are more in Tamilnadu compared to other states.

In the bottom half , it looks like the number of students who took correspondence courses from CHD declined from 6247 to 6017 in the period 2009-10 to 2010-11.

You can think that 6000+ students taking a correspondence course in Hindi amounts to people rioting for learning Hindi. But unfortunately that is not the truth. Very Happy

by Guest Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:32 pm

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:What is your point?. Are people rioting against the government to change its policy to learn Hindi?.

Coming to your graph,

The name of the Sabha itself says "Dakshina Bharat". I'm not sure why the red box is named All India. All the other states except Tamilnadu have Hindi in their schooling system, so it makes sense that people who OPT to ADDITIONALLY learn Hindi are more in Tamilnadu compared to other states.

In the bottom half , it looks like the number of students who took correspondence courses from CHD declined from 6247 to 6017 in the period 2009-10 to 2010-11.

You can think that 6000+ students taking a correspondence course in Hindi amounts to people rioting for learning Hindi. But unfortunately that is not the truth.

your last sentence reveals your bias when you ignore the fact that 10 lakh students from TN are taking hindi courses from the Dakshina Bharat Hindi Prachar Sabha (in 2010-2011) and focus on the 6,000+ students taking hindi courses offered by the Central Hindi Directorate. Another point: i posted another article which claimed that the number of students in TN taking hindi courses offered by Dakshina Bharata Hindi Prachar Sabha is increasing by 20% every year.

by Miss.Blah Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:43 pm

Dakshin Bharat Hindi Prachar Sabha. I love you

by Ponniyin Selvan Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:54 pm

Rashmun wrote:
Ponniyin Selvan wrote:What is your point?. Are people rioting against the government to change its policy to learn Hindi?.

Coming to your graph,

The name of the Sabha itself says "Dakshina Bharat". I'm not sure why the red box is named All India. All the other states except Tamilnadu have Hindi in their schooling system, so it makes sense that people who OPT to ADDITIONALLY learn Hindi are more in Tamilnadu compared to other states.

In the bottom half , it looks like the number of students who took correspondence courses from CHD declined from 6247 to 6017 in the period 2009-10 to 2010-11.

You can think that 6000+ students taking a correspondence course in Hindi amounts to people rioting for learning Hindi. But unfortunately that is not the truth.

your last sentence reveals your bias when you ignore the fact that 10 lakh students from TN are taking hindi courses from the Dakshina Bharat Hindi Prachar Sabha (in 2010-2011) and focus on the 6,000+ students taking hindi courses offered by the Central Hindi Directorate. Another point: i posted another article which claimed that the number of students in TN taking hindi courses offered by Dakshina Bharata Hindi Prachar Sabha is increasing by 20% every year.

Good luck to your approach to motivate ALL Tamils to become "GOOD" citizens by learning our "rashtra basha" Hindi. Smile

As a resident of Tamilnadu, I don't see that happening any time soon. In the mean time, I'm doing my part to convince a lot of folks (including my colleagues) why India is like European Union and the single language formula is neither optimal nor easy to arrive at. I always get a positive feedback when I throw the EU argument.

by Guest Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:59 pm

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Ponniyin Selvan wrote:What is your point?. Are people rioting against the government to change its policy to learn Hindi?.

Coming to your graph,

The name of the Sabha itself says "Dakshina Bharat". I'm not sure why the red box is named All India. All the other states except Tamilnadu have Hindi in their schooling system, so it makes sense that people who OPT to ADDITIONALLY learn Hindi are more in Tamilnadu compared to other states.

In the bottom half , it looks like the number of students who took correspondence courses from CHD declined from 6247 to 6017 in the period 2009-10 to 2010-11.

You can think that 6000+ students taking a correspondence course in Hindi amounts to people rioting for learning Hindi. But unfortunately that is not the truth.

your last sentence reveals your bias when you ignore the fact that 10 lakh students from TN are taking hindi courses from the Dakshina Bharat Hindi Prachar Sabha (in 2010-2011) and focus on the 6,000+ students taking hindi courses offered by the Central Hindi Directorate. Another point: i posted another article which claimed that the number of students in TN taking hindi courses offered by Dakshina Bharata Hindi Prachar Sabha is increasing by 20% every year.

Good luck to your approach to motivate ALL Tamils to become "GOOD" citizens by learning our "rashtra basha" Hindi.

As a resident of Tamilnadu, I don't see that happening any time soon. In the mean time, I'm doing my part to convince a lot of folks (including my colleagues) why India is like European Union and the single language formula is neither optimal nor easy to arrive at. I always get a positive feedback when I throw the EU argument.

there was once a discussion on this subject on an indology list. the norwegian indologist lars marten fosse wrote that in norway, students typically end up knowing four languages.

by Ponniyin Selvan Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:21 pm

Rashmun wrote:
Ponniyin Selvan wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Ponniyin Selvan wrote:What is your point?. Are people rioting against the government to change its policy to learn Hindi?.

Coming to your graph,

The name of the Sabha itself says "Dakshina Bharat". I'm not sure why the red box is named All India. All the other states except Tamilnadu have Hindi in their schooling system, so it makes sense that people who OPT to ADDITIONALLY learn Hindi are more in Tamilnadu compared to other states.

In the bottom half , it looks like the number of students who took correspondence courses from CHD declined from 6247 to 6017 in the period 2009-10 to 2010-11.

You can think that 6000+ students taking a correspondence course in Hindi amounts to people rioting for learning Hindi. But unfortunately that is not the truth.

your last sentence reveals your bias when you ignore the fact that 10 lakh students from TN are taking hindi courses from the Dakshina Bharat Hindi Prachar Sabha (in 2010-2011) and focus on the 6,000+ students taking hindi courses offered by the Central Hindi Directorate. Another point: i posted another article which claimed that the number of students in TN taking hindi courses offered by Dakshina Bharata Hindi Prachar Sabha is increasing by 20% every year.

Good luck to your approach to motivate ALL Tamils to become "GOOD" citizens by learning our "rashtra basha" Hindi.

As a resident of Tamilnadu, I don't see that happening any time soon. In the mean time, I'm doing my part to convince a lot of folks (including my colleagues) why India is like European Union and the single language formula is neither optimal nor easy to arrive at. I always get a positive feedback when I throw the EU argument.

there was once a discussion on this subject on an indology list. the norwegian indologist lars marten fosse wrote that in norway, students typically end up knowing four languages.

euractiv.com/en/culture/eu-students-learn-foreign-languages-study/article-185818

This says most EU students learn two or more foreign languages. And most of them prefer English.

English is the most studied language in all member states for which data were available, except for Luxembourg, where English, French and German have equal standing, and the UK and Ireland, where French is most popular.

by Guest Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:28 pm

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Ponniyin Selvan wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Ponniyin Selvan wrote:What is your point?. Are people rioting against the government to change its policy to learn Hindi?.

Coming to your graph,

The name of the Sabha itself says "Dakshina Bharat". I'm not sure why the red box is named All India. All the other states except Tamilnadu have Hindi in their schooling system, so it makes sense that people who OPT to ADDITIONALLY learn Hindi are more in Tamilnadu compared to other states.

In the bottom half , it looks like the number of students who took correspondence courses from CHD declined from 6247 to 6017 in the period 2009-10 to 2010-11.

You can think that 6000+ students taking a correspondence course in Hindi amounts to people rioting for learning Hindi. But unfortunately that is not the truth.

your last sentence reveals your bias when you ignore the fact that 10 lakh students from TN are taking hindi courses from the Dakshina Bharat Hindi Prachar Sabha (in 2010-2011) and focus on the 6,000+ students taking hindi courses offered by the Central Hindi Directorate. Another point: i posted another article which claimed that the number of students in TN taking hindi courses offered by Dakshina Bharata Hindi Prachar Sabha is increasing by 20% every year.

Good luck to your approach to motivate ALL Tamils to become "GOOD" citizens by learning our "rashtra basha" Hindi.

As a resident of Tamilnadu, I don't see that happening any time soon. In the mean time, I'm doing my part to convince a lot of folks (including my colleagues) why India is like European Union and the single language formula is neither optimal nor easy to arrive at. I always get a positive feedback when I throw the EU argument.

there was once a discussion on this subject on an indology list. the norwegian indologist lars marten fosse wrote that in norway, students typically end up knowing four languages.

euractiv.com/en/culture/eu-students-learn-foreign-languages-study/article-185818

This says most EU students learn two or more foreign languages. And most of them prefer English.

English is the most studied language in all member states for which data were available, except for Luxembourg, where English, French and German have equal standing, and the UK and Ireland, where French is most popular.

what is your opinion on all Indian students studying english, hindustani/hindi, and one regional language?

by Ponniyin Selvan Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:52 pm

My preference will be for the students to learn the native language of the place they live in, English as the language of opportunity and any other language only if they wish.

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:56 pm

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:My preference will be for the students to learn the native language of the place they live in, English as the language of opportunity and any other language only if they wish.

நாய் வாலை நிமிர்த்தவே முடியாது!

by Guest Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:02 pm

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:My preference will be for the students to learn the native language of the place they live in, English as the language of opportunity and any other language only if they wish.

Please share your thoughts on the following:

Yet the current trend of Tamil Nadu
students increasingly choosing to learn Hindi, with some even opting for
Hindi as the medium of instruction, appears to make nonsense of the
erstwhile DMK government’s stand. (See chart)

More than four
decades after the DMK rode an anti-Hindi agitation to power in Tamil
Nadu, it seems the state’s people are increasingly jettisoning their
perceived hostility towards India’s dominant language.

With Hindi not
even taught as a subject in Tamil Nadu’s government schools, many people
from the state are studying the language through courses offered by the
Central Hindi Directorate (CHD) and the Dakshin Bharat Hindi Prachar
Sabha.

Even more
surprisingly, many are opting to study university-level humanities
courses offered by the Prachar Sabha — BA, MA, MPhil and PhD in
political science or history as well as BEd — with Hindi as the medium
of instruction.

While the CHD
offers only correspondence courses on the Hindi language, the Prachar
Sabha has a network of centres covering even small towns and villages in
all the southern states and Puducherry. It has also engaged scores of
voluntary organisations and thousands of volunteers to spread the
teaching of Hindi in these states. The CHD provides the funds to the
Prachar Sabha.

CHD director K.
Vijaykumar confirmed the trend. “Of the Prachar Sabha’s 18 lakh students
country-wide, nearly 10 lakh are from Tamil Nadu alone,” he said.

B.P. Sanjay, the
vice-chancellor of the Central University of Tamil Nadu, suggested that
one reason could be the increasing trend of people having to work
outside their home states. “In the public domain, there is no visible
sign of anti-Hindi dynamics. This may be because people have recognised
the benefits of learning the language,” he said.

“They learn it to
add value to their qualifications, keeping in mind the question of
mobility in service and job opportunities in other states.”

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1110628/jsp/frontpage/story_14169671.jsp

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:08 pm

“Of the Prachar Sabha’s 18 lakh students
country-wide, nearly 10 lakh are from Tamil Nadu alone,”

are you really that daft? i have no idea why a dakshin bharath hindi prachar sabha should be pracharing outside dakshin bharath. so if one assumes that its operations are limited to the four southern states and pondicherry then it makes sense that most of the students would be from TN because it's highly likely that hindi is more readily available as a subject of study in regular schools in the other states. why is this something of surprise?

by Ponniyin Selvan Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:08 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Ponniyin Selvan wrote:My preference will be for the students to learn the native language of the place they live in, English as the language of opportunity and any other language only if they wish.

நாய் வாலை நிமிர்த்தவே முடியாது!

by Guest Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:11 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
“Of the Prachar Sabha’s 18 lakh students
country-wide, nearly 10 lakh are from Tamil Nadu alone,”

are you really that daft? i have no idea why a dakshin bharath hindi prachar sabha should be pracharing outside dakshin bharath. so if one assumes that its operations are limited to the four southern states and pondicherry then it makes sense that most of the students would be from TN because it's highly likely that hindi is more readily available as a subject of study in regular schools in the other states. why is this something of surprise?

why are the number of students from tamil nadu who are learning hindi from dakshina bharata hindi prachar sabha increasing by 20% every year?

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:13 pm

when you go from one to two, the percentage increase is 100%. that's a clue for you to answer your own question.

also i went to the sabha's website and counted a total of 37 branches of which 14 are in TN. given that, its enrollment
in TN compared to the effort being expended seems rather puny.

by Guest Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:17 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:when you go from one to two, the percentage increase is 100%. that's a clue for you to answer your own question.

the number of students from tamil nadu learning hindi from dakshina bharata hindi prachar sabha is 10 lakhs for the year 2010-2011. In 1965, the number was less than 20,000. Admit it, Max. a hindi renaissance is taking place in Tamil Nadu.

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:19 pm

general literacy rates have gone up tremendously too in TN since 1965. the number of people studying anything would have been fairly small in 65 compared to 2011. i'd hazard a guess that most of the people studying hindi are people who are already well versed in english and probably tamil.

but hey anything that gets you through the night, as they say here in the US.

eta: and since i wrote this post, i found this: http://www.tn.gov.in/schooleducation/statistics/table4-lit.htm

by charvaka Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:19 pm

artood2 wrote:I am sorry to say this but your arguments have not included any numbers so far.

I have shown that thousands of crores are spent on Hindi promotion -- including 700 crores on ads -- when that money could have been spent more effectively on other things.

artood2 wrote:I have a theory and the overall numbers support that theory that improvement is there at a very good rate.

At this very good rate, about 300 million people are illiterate in India as of 2011. Instead of spending those thousands of crores on fixing that, the Indian government is spending money on teaching Hindi to middle class southern Indians! If that's not misplaced priorities I don't know what is.

artood2 wrote:YEs this was precisely my point of institutionalisation of language barriers through creation of states. It was not a question of understanding, it was the question of assimilation (something that you said is not necessary). A common link language forges better assimilation.

Haha, again, this is laughable. Do you think knowing Hindi would have made the Tamil and Kannada people fight less? When Tamil and Kannadiga people have been talking to each other for centuries before Hindi evolved as a language? Soviet Russian leaders thought so, and taught Russian to all their subjects; both Uzbeks and Kirghiz learned Russian in schools, but that doesn't mean their fights magically disappear through this "assimilation" that you speak of!

artood2 wrote:Ubiquity of exposure to English : where? English is ubiquitous in rural areas where 65% of the poopulation lives?

Yes, English is more ubiquitous than Hindi is in rural AP. English can be seen on all packaged goods, many advertisements and hoardings, business signage, etc. You would be hard pressed to find a Hindi sign in rural AP -- particularly in coastal Andhra, while you will see English signs in abundance.

by charvaka Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:23 pm

artood2 wrote:You can do the same to show how it is not adequate. Gender is a problem. women are lagging and govt can reallocate more on women side (as they have been doing). The data you ask are not readily available. However the rate of overall increase is good and does not point to lack of resourcing. There is a gender disparity and if lack of funding would have been the issue, that disparity should have impacted both groups similarly. Again you can bring out the numbers and tell me why my argument is wrong.

I recognize that the data I ask are not readily available. That is why I have been saying that you cannot possibly know that funding is adequate for literacy programs. You look at 10-15% improvement over a ten year period and content about the rate of improvement. That is not good, because other countries at India's level of income were able to achieve higher levels of literacy faster. (At WW2, much of Asia except Japan had similar literacy levels as India. In about 30 years much of East Asia achieved near-universal literacy, while you are content with 74% in India after 70 years!)

by Hellsangel Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:27 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
நாய் வாலை நிமிர்த்தவே முடியாது!

For the benefit of others, translating Il Professore speak,

Something about a dog's tail always being crooked.

by charvaka Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:30 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
“Of the Prachar Sabha’s 18 lakh students
country-wide, nearly 10 lakh are from Tamil Nadu alone,”

are you really that daft? i have no idea why a dakshin bharath hindi prachar sabha should be pracharing outside dakshin bharath.

It is not daftness. It's the same kind of mindset that leads one to claim Maithili as a dialect of Hindi when it comes to counting heads to claim a high percentage that know the language, and to claim it as "not Hindi" when it comes to showing how non-Hindians are using Hindi.

by charvaka Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:33 pm

Rashmun wrote:a hindi renaissance is taking place in Tamil Nadu.

hindi prachar sabha - Hindi in canadian school - Page 5 3077217049

Perhaps you don't realize what renaissance means.

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:35 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:a hindi renaissance is taking place in Tamil Nadu.

Perhaps you don't realize what renaissance means.

rajagopalachari's thwarted dream was the first flowering; rashmun's rich imagination is the renaissance.

HTH

by Guest Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:36 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:a hindi renaissance is taking place in Tamil Nadu.

Perhaps you don't realize what renaissance means.

the phrase 'hindi renaissance in tamil nadu' was originally coined by Max on this thread and i was teasing him. sad to see you making a fool of yourself. yet again!! lol!

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:38 pm

i meant a renaissance in the sense that you're the second coming of rajagopalachari.

by charvaka Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:39 pm

Rashmun wrote:i was teasing him.

Yes, we all believe you.

Rashmun wrote:sad to see you making a fool of yourself. yet again!!

Sure, I am the fool.

by Guest Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:39 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i meant a renaissance in the sense that you're the second coming of rajagopalachari.

--> let us not get personal, Max. let the stats do the talking.

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:41 pm

Rashmun wrote:
--> let us not get personal, Max. let the stats do the talking.

well the problem is in your case the vellore komala vilas waiter usually does the talking.
or if you can't find him readily, then dead tamil poets.

by charvaka Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:42 pm

BTW, Rashmun, you are continuing to pussyfoot around the question I asked you yesterday: How will you know when The Time comes? What are the parameters you will use to judge whether it is The Time already?

by Guest Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:43 pm

charvaka wrote:BTW, Rashmun, you are continuing to pussyfoot around the question I asked you yesterday: How will you know when The Time comes? What are the parameters you will use to judge whether it is The Time already?

I decided i would pay you in the same coin after you started hedging and pussyfooting around my simple question: do i have your permission to post criticism of Charvakas without you thinking that i am attacking you personally?

by charvaka Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:45 pm

Rashmun wrote:
charvaka wrote:BTW, Rashmun, you are continuing to pussyfoot around the question I asked you yesterday: How will you know when The Time comes? What are the parameters you will use to judge whether it is The Time already?

I decided i would pay you in the same coin after you started hedging and pussyfooting around my simple question: do i have your permission to post criticism of Charvakas without you thinking that i am attacking you personally?

Yes, you have my permission, if you thought you needed it.

Your turn.

by charvaka Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:49 pm

Rashmun wrote:I decided i would pay you in the same coin after you started hedging and pussyfooting around my simple question: do i have your permission to post criticism of Charvakas without you thinking that i am attacking you personally?

BTW, Rashmun, you are lying as usual.

You asked me your question after I asked you my question. Here is the relevant post:

https://such.forumotion.com/t2418p50-hindi-in-canadian-school#21008

Do you have the courage to accept that you were wrong above?

by Guest Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:53 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:I decided i would pay you in the same coin after you started hedging and pussyfooting around my simple question: do i have your permission to post criticism of Charvakas without you thinking that i am attacking you personally?
BTW, Rashmun, you are lying as usual.

You asked me your question after I asked you my question. Here is the relevant post:

https://such.forumotion.com/t2418p50-hindi-in-canadian-school#21008

Do you have the courage to accept that you were wrong above?

--> your pussyfooting started when you refused to answer my simple question: are you for separate telangana or united andhra and instead proceeded to give me links to your suchforum posts (some of them in telugu). then you gave the link to a three year sulekha CH post and for good measure kept cribbing as to why i had not asked for the english translation to your telugu posts. all this drama just to answer my simple question: are you for separate telangana or united andhra.

by charvaka Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:56 pm

Rashmun wrote:
charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:I decided i would pay you in the same coin after you started hedging and pussyfooting around my simple question: do i have your permission to post criticism of Charvakas without you thinking that i am attacking you personally?
BTW, Rashmun, you are lying as usual.

You asked me your question after I asked you my question. Here is the relevant post:

https://such.forumotion.com/t2418p50-hindi-in-canadian-school#21008

Do you have the courage to accept that you were wrong above?

--> your pussyfooting started when you refused to answer my simple question: are you for separate telangana or united andhra and instead proceeded to give me links to your suchforum posts (some of them in telugu). then you gave the link to a three year sulekha CH post and for good measure kept cribbing as to why i had not asked for the english translation to your telugu posts. all this drama just to answer my simple question: are you for separate telangana or united andhra.

Arthaat: you don't have the courage to accept that you were wrong above.

Thanks for playing.

by Guest Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:00 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:I decided i would pay you in the same coin after you started hedging and pussyfooting around my simple question: do i have your permission to post criticism of Charvakas without you thinking that i am attacking you personally?
BTW, Rashmun, you are lying as usual.

You asked me your question after I asked you my question. Here is the relevant post:

https://such.forumotion.com/t2418p50-hindi-in-canadian-school#21008

Do you have the courage to accept that you were wrong above?

--> your pussyfooting started when you refused to answer my simple question: are you for separate telangana or united andhra and instead proceeded to give me links to your suchforum posts (some of them in telugu). then you gave the link to a three year sulekha CH post and for good measure kept cribbing as to why i had not asked for the english translation to your telugu posts. all this drama just to answer my simple question: are you for separate telangana or united andhra.
Arthaat: you don't have the courage to accept that you were wrong above.

Thanks for playing.

--> keep hedging, pussyfooting around, not answering a simple question--are your for separate telangana or united andhra?-- and instead giving links to multiple suchforum posts of yours some of them in telugu. when none of the english suchforum posts answers the simple question, then blame the other person for not asking for a translation of you telugu posts and then throw in a link to a three year old sulekha CH post of yours. then go around claiming the other person is a liar and someone not courageous. Thanks for the laughs, Charvako.

by charvaka Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:13 pm

Rashmun wrote:
charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:I decided i would pay you in the same coin after you started hedging and pussyfooting around my simple question: do i have your permission to post criticism of Charvakas without you thinking that i am attacking you personally?
BTW, Rashmun, you are lying as usual.

You asked me your question after I asked you my question. Here is the relevant post:

https://such.forumotion.com/t2418p50-hindi-in-canadian-school#21008

Do you have the courage to accept that you were wrong above?

--> your pussyfooting started when you refused to answer my simple question: are you for separate telangana or united andhra and instead proceeded to give me links to your suchforum posts (some of them in telugu). then you gave the link to a three year sulekha CH post and for good measure kept cribbing as to why i had not asked for the english translation to your telugu posts. all this drama just to answer my simple question: are you for separate telangana or united andhra.
Arthaat: you don't have the courage to accept that you were wrong above.

Thanks for playing.

--> keep hedging, pussyfooting around, not answering a simple question--are your for separate telangana or united andhra?-- and instead giving links to multiple suchforum posts of yours some of them in telugu. when none of the english suchforum posts answers the simple question, then blame the other person for not asking for a translation of you telugu posts and then throw in a link to a three year old sulekha CH post of yours. then go around claiming the other person is a liar and someone not courageous. Thanks for the laughs, Charvako.

I answered the question many, many times over the last many years. I even gave you links to posts where I expressed my position: I am for a united Andhra Pradesh. But don't let that stop you from pretending otherwise.

Now, it's your turn to answer the question posed to you on this topic: How will you know when The Time arrives? What are the criteria that you propose for evaluating whether The Time has arrived?

by Guest Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:59 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
charvaka wrote:BTW, Rashmun, you are lying as usual.

You asked me your question after I asked you my question. Here is the relevant post:

https://such.forumotion.com/t2418p50-hindi-in-canadian-school#21008

Do you have the courage to accept that you were wrong above?

--> your pussyfooting started when you refused to answer my simple question: are you for separate telangana or united andhra and instead proceeded to give me links to your suchforum posts (some of them in telugu). then you gave the link to a three year sulekha CH post and for good measure kept cribbing as to why i had not asked for the english translation to your telugu posts. all this drama just to answer my simple question: are you for separate telangana or united andhra.
Arthaat: you don't have the courage to accept that you were wrong above.

Thanks for playing.

--> keep hedging, pussyfooting around, not answering a simple question--are your for separate telangana or united andhra?-- and instead giving links to multiple suchforum posts of yours some of them in telugu. when none of the english suchforum posts answers the simple question, then blame the other person for not asking for a translation of you telugu posts and then throw in a link to a three year old sulekha CH post of yours. then go around claiming the other person is a liar and someone not courageous. Thanks for the laughs, Charvako.
I answered the question many, many times over the last many years. I even gave you links to posts where I expressed my position: I am for a united Andhra Pradesh. But don't let that stop you from pretending otherwise.

--> Charvako, when i asked the simple question--are you for separate telangana or for united andhra--you started giving links to your suchforum posts some of which were in telugu. when i said your english posts did not answer my question you did two things:
1. post a link to a three year old sulekha CH post of yours
2. complain that i did not ask for an english translation to your telugu posts.

--> these cheap and dishonest tactics of yours might work with newbies but old timers will just expose you every time you try it on them.

by Guest Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:02 am

Rashmun wrote:
charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:

--> your pussyfooting started when you refused to answer my simple question: are you for separate telangana or united andhra and instead proceeded to give me links to your suchforum posts (some of them in telugu). then you gave the link to a three year sulekha CH post and for good measure kept cribbing as to why i had not asked for the english translation to your telugu posts. all this drama just to answer my simple question: are you for separate telangana or united andhra.
Arthaat: you don't have the courage to accept that you were wrong above.

Thanks for playing.

--> keep hedging, pussyfooting around, not answering a simple question--are your for separate telangana or united andhra?-- and instead giving links to multiple suchforum posts of yours some of them in telugu. when none of the english suchforum posts answers the simple question, then blame the other person for not asking for a translation of you telugu posts and then throw in a link to a three year old sulekha CH post of yours. then go around claiming the other person is a liar and someone not courageous. Thanks for the laughs, Charvako.
I answered the question many, many times over the last many years. I even gave you links to posts where I expressed my position: I am for a united Andhra Pradesh. But don't let that stop you from pretending otherwise.

--> Charvako, when i asked the simple question--are you for separate telangana or for united andhra--you started giving links to your suchforum posts some of which were in telugu. when i said your english posts did not answer my question you did two things:
1. post a link to a three year old sulekha CH post of yours
2. complain that i did not ask for an english translation to your telugu posts.

--> these cheap and dishonest tactics of yours might work with newbies but old timers will just expose you every time you try it on them.

--> the correct thing to do when i asked the question: are you for separate telangana or united andhra--in a thread on regionalism!--was to simply answer my question instead of dilly dallying and giving multiple links to your old posts.

by charvaka Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:05 am

Rashmun, feel free to respond to the question instead of pussyfooting around it. The question, to refresh your memory, is:

How will you know when The Time arrives? What are the criteria that you propose for evaluating whether The Time has arrived?

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