Hindi in canadian school

moral of the story is: never underestimate the uncles!

Impy Yakkov, I expected this reply from you when I typed unkil. Please read my reply to propa in the thread titled this site.

Tracy Whitney wrote:moral of the story is: never underestimate the uncles!

never underestimate the flavor, bouquet and allure of a fresh, young dhokla.

Propagandhi711 wrote:

Tracy Whitney wrote:moral of the story is: never underestimate the uncles!

never underestimate the flavor, bouquet and allure of a fresh, young dhokla.

--> what about a fresh lissome masala dosa?

am partial to chillu vada myself, but you should be calling it dosai, not dosa.

Propagandhi711 wrote:am partial to chillu vada myself, but you should be calling it dosai, not dosa.

my bad.

kinnera wrote:
The intention is to have its ppl know one common indian language. Not a bad intention at all. There are indeed many advantages to knowing one common indian language. The problem with some is that the language happens to be hindi. Don't bring in English pls and argue that everyone can be taught english. English is a foreign language. Hindi is more closer to other indian languages than english (may not be true for tamil). Apart from religion, like it or not, it is bollywood that connects all indians. Hollywood couldn't have done that.

you are hedging and not answering my question. you have a limited amount of taxpayer money to spend on one of two things:

a) help the biharis, rajasthanis, uttar pradeshis, and madya pradeshis who are illiterate, become literate

b) programs to promote hindi amongst already literate people in non-hindi regions of the country

what would you choose to spend the money on?

we can talk about whether we need a common language later. i think lots of indians whether you and rashmun like it or not have already made that choice and it is not hindi. to me english is as much a part of our history, culture, and ethos as any other indian language. that its presence in india is more recent is of no consequence. it is as much an indian language as any other.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/17/world/asia/17iht-letter17.html

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/17/world/asia/17iht-letter17.html

huzefa kapasi had posted a news article about the increasing popularity of hindi in tamil nadu. i have done the same: i posted another article about the same theme--more and more tamilians in TN are learning hindi.

A Supreme Court judge from Tamil Nadu says he thinks its a good idea for tamilians to learn hindi. sitting in the u.s. you would agree that you know less about this issue than this supreme court judge.

http://www.hindu.com/2009/06/30/stories/2009063054900500.htm

I would spend on both.

1.Programs to improve literacy

2. Programs to promote a common indian language.



There's no indication that the first one is suffering because of the second. The illiteracy in bihar, rajastan, up, mp, etc is not because of the govt's promotion of hindi elsewhere. The illiteracy there will not take a giant leap once the govt diverts the trickle that it spends on the promotion of hindi.

Rashmun wrote: sitting in the u.s. you would agree that you know less about this issue than this supreme court judge.

i'd agree that the people making the individual choices know more about their own needs than the indian government, the supreme court judge, or you and me.

kinnera wrote:I would spend on both.

1.Programs to improve literacy

2. Programs to promote a common indian language.



There's no indication that the first one is suffering because of the second. The illiteracy in bihar, rajastan, up, mp, etc is not because of the govt's promotion of hindi elsewhere. The illiteracy there will not take a giant leap once the govt diverts the trickle that it spends on the promotion of hindi.

in a poor, yes poor (your relatives in hyderabad and bangalore who work for multinationals and own three homes in each of those two cities don't count) and resource constrained country like india, you have to choose. you cannot do both.

Create Hindi programs for ALL illitrates ALL over the country, and let whoever literate who wants to use it join too.

Disclaimer: Merely speculating Max's choices... NOT furthering my Hindi agenda on thambis.

tracy: your post makes no sense. is it easier to teach someone who is illiterate, and has only conversed in telugu all his life, read and write telugu or hindi?

what about a 3-year-old who is starting out, which means school programs hahahahaha. sorry I have no real interest in the this topic, just wanted to mess with you.

in that case i won't take you seriously.

kinnera wrote:I would spend on both.

1.Programs to improve literacy

2. Programs to promote a common indian language.



There's no indication that the first one is suffering because of the second. The illiteracy in bihar, rajastan, up, mp, etc is not because of the govt's promotion of hindi elsewhere. The illiteracy there will not take a giant leap once the govt diverts the trickle that it spends on the promotion of hindi.

India has limited and meager resources, and they will be stretched if you have to do both. I don't know why it is so important, when the literacy levels are not even respectable.

My mom learnt Hindi through Hindi prachar sabha. She was literate in telugu by that time, but they were many around her who weren't. If the resources were spent appropriately, there would be two literates, instead of one person who knows two languages.

kinnera wrote:I would spend on both.

1.Programs to improve literacy

2. Programs to promote a common indian language.



There's no indication that the first one is suffering because of the second. The illiteracy in bihar, rajastan, up, mp, etc is not because of the govt's promotion of hindi elsewhere. The illiteracy there will not take a giant leap once the govt diverts the trickle that it spends on the promotion of hindi.

Resources are limited. Any rupee spent on teaching Hindi to a well-educated southerner can have a much, much higher return to society if spent on educating an illiterate Hindi speaker. So Max's argument makes complete sense. If India is spending a "trickle" on teaching Hindi to educated southerners, then that same trickle can help teach reading and writing to a few illiterate Hindi speakers. The benefit to the illiterates from learning to read and write their own language will be a LOT more than the benefit the southerners get from learning an additional language on top of Tamil and English.

There is simply no economic justification for the government to spend even a single rupee on promoting Hindi.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Rashmun wrote: sitting in the u.s. you would agree that you know less about this issue than this supreme court judge.

i'd agree that the people making the individual choices know more about their own needs than the indian government, the supreme court judge, or you and me.

--> I am glad you agree that the people should make their individual choice. They have exercised their right and have made that choice. And yet you continue to harp about why it does not make sense for them to learn hindi!

----------

Hindi bashers to buffs - Tamil students pick central language courses

New Delhi, June 27: A few months ago, the then M. Karunanidhi government set the Centre a condition for opening Navodaya Vidyalayas in Tamil Nadu.




It was ready to provide land for
these schools, the DMK government said, but only if they began teaching
in English and Tamil and not in Hindi.




The Union human
resource development ministry did not agree and dropped the proposal.
Navodaya Vidyalayas continue to exist in all the states and Union
territories except Tamil Nadu.






Yet the current
trend of Tamil Nadu students increasingly choosing to learn Hindi, with
some even opting for Hindi as the medium of instruction, appears to make
nonsense of the erstwhile DMK government’s stand. (See chart)




More than four
decades after the DMK rode an anti-Hindi agitation to power in Tamil
Nadu, it seems the state’s people are increasingly jettisoning their
perceived hostility towards India’s dominant language.






With Hindi not
even taught as a subject in Tamil Nadu’s government schools, many people
from the state are studying the language through courses offered by the
Central Hindi Directorate (CHD) and the Dakshin Bharat Hindi Prachar
Sabha.




Even more
surprisingly, many are opting to study university-level humanities
courses offered by the Prachar Sabha — BA, MA, MPhil and PhD in
political science or history as well as BEd — with Hindi as the medium
of instruction.






While the CHD
offers only correspondence courses on the Hindi language, the Prachar
Sabha has a network of centres covering even small towns and villages in
all the southern states and Puducherry. It has also engaged scores of
voluntary organisations and thousands of volunteers to spread the
teaching of Hindi in these states. The CHD provides the funds to the
Prachar Sabha.






CHD director K.
Vijaykumar confirmed the trend. “Of the Prachar Sabha’s 18 lakh students
country-wide, nearly 10 lakh are from Tamil Nadu alone,” he said.




B.P. Sanjay, the
vice-chancellor of the Central University of Tamil Nadu, suggested that
one reason could be the increasing trend of people having to work
outside their home states. “In the public domain, there is no visible
sign of anti-Hindi dynamics. This may be because people have recognised
the benefits of learning the language,” he said.






“They learn it to
add value to their qualifications, keeping in mind the question of
mobility in service and job opportunities in other states.”




Yet the
Karunanidhi government’s stand had a historical basis. In 1965, the DMK
had led a fiery students’ agitation against the “imposition” of Hindi as
a compulsory school subject.






The students
feared that from January 26, 1965 — that is, 15 years after the birth of
the republic — Hindi would become the lone official language of India
under the Constitution, with English losing its status as the associate
official language.













Jawaharlal Nehru
(who died in 1964) had got Parliament to pass the Official Language Act
1963 to allow the use of English beyond the cut-off date, but the DMK
feared that future governments would not honour the commitment.






The DMK, which had
50 members in the Tamil Nadu Assembly, spearheaded the students’
agitation that began in Madurai on January 25, 1965, and spread through
the state. Many students set themselves on fire.






The embattled
Congress government of P. Bhaktvatsalam brought in the paramilitary,
resulting in more bloodshed and nearly 100 deaths. The riots ebbed only
after then Prime Minister Lal Bahadur Shastri promised that English
would continue as an official language as long as non-Hindi-speaking
states wanted it to.




The agitation,
though, took its toll on the Congress. The DMK swept to power in the
1967 Assembly elections, becoming the first regional party to rule an
Indian state. Nearly half a century on, the Congress remains a
relatively minor player in Tamil Nadu.






Subsequently,
Indira Gandhi amended the Official Language Act to ensure that both
Hindi and English continued as official languages indefinitely.




Even now the DMK
keeps demanding that all the languages listed in the Constitution’s
Eighth Schedule be declared official languages. But this has become more
of an empty slogan.




The anti-Hindi
feelings have been blunted by the arrival of satellite TV channels that
have made linguistic boundaries irrelevant. Another factor has been the
DMK and the AIADMK becoming partners in central governments after 1998.


http://www.telegraphindia.com/1110628/jsp/frontpage/story_14169671.jsp

and all indications are that the government is busy screwing things up.

i have never said anything critical about people's individual choices, at least not on this thread. i said i'd like to see evidence of people choosing hindi over english when they are faced with that choice. my criticism has almost always been about government programs promoting hindi, and about people who are supportive of them

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i have never said anything critical about people's individual choices, at least not on this thread. i said i'd like to see evidence of people choosing hindi over english when they are faced with that choice. my criticism has almost always been about government programs promoting hindi, and about people who are supportive of them

--> i am all for promoting english. english is the language of the future. at some point of time, hindi will have to make way for english as the common language of india. but that time has not arrived yet.

and rashmun you can blissfully continue to ignore my request for evidence of people choosing hindi over english and just point to the increasing quest for hindi in TN as if that answers my question.

IMO for tamilians who know only tamil and are literate in it, and want to expand their horizons and seek a better quality of life for themselves, english is a necessity; not so hindi.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:and rashmun you can blissfully continue to ignore my request for evidence of people choosing hindi over english and just point to the increasing quest for hindi in TN as if that answers my question.

IMO for tamilians who know only tamil and are literate in it, and want to expand their horizons and seek a better quality of life for themselves, english is a necessity; not so hindi.

why are many tamilians in tamil nadu opting for hindi as their medium of instruction in graduate studies?

from the article:

Even more
surprisingly, many are opting to study university-level humanities
courses offered by the Prachar Sabha — BA, MA, MPhil and PhD in
political science or history as well as BEd — with Hindi as the medium
of instruction.

Rashmun wrote:english is the language of the future. at some point of time, hindi will have to make way for english as the common language of india. but that time has not arrived yet.

How will you know when The Time arrives? What are the criteria that you propose for evaluating whether The Time has arrived?

English the language of the present and the future. Otherwise, we'd be having this conversation in Hindi. With all the money the government squandered on educating me and other southerners in Hindi, the language of communication between Indians from different regions has been, is and will be English. Hindi has never played that role, and never will. Even if CBN reads three Hindi newspapers and Vachaspati Mishra of 9th century AD fame thinks a certain way about those who disagree with you.

charvaka wrote:

Rashmun wrote:english is the language of the future. at some point of time, hindi will have to make way for english as the common language of india. but that time has not arrived yet.

How will you know when The Time arrives? What are the criteria that you propose for evaluating whether The Time has arrived?

English the language of the present and the future. Otherwise, we'd be having this conversation in Hindi. With all the money the government squandered on educating me and other southerners in Hindi, the language of communication between Indians from different regions has been, is and will be English. Hindi has never played that role, and never will. Even if CBN reads three Hindi newspapers and Vachaspati Mishra of 9th century AD fame thinks a certain way about those who disagree with you.

did you even bother to read the article which i posted in which it is mentioned that more and more tamilians are learning hindi?. did you read the article where the supreme court judge from tamil nadu encourages tamilians to learn hindi? why are so stuck up about Vachaspati Mishra? He called Charvakas 'more beastly than the beasts' but his reference was to Charvaka philosophers. Do not take it personally.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:in that case i won't take you seriously.

whether you take me seriously or not, that's what's happening, if I were to believe the posts here. Middle class may protest. Poor class will be happy to take whatever education. Once you got the masses, you got e'one. Hence my earlier joke.

All this frikkin same ol' same ol' talk of tamil-hindi reminds me of a brilliant movie I watched not too long ago. Check it - "Kattradhu Thamizh" (2008) with "Ko" Jeeva in the lead...

its so surprising that everytime there is a hindi Vs tamil topic it goes on for atleast 10 pages and nobody changes their opinion haha

idk abt others but it really tires me **whew**

charvaka wrote:

Rashmun wrote:english is the language of the future. at some point of time, hindi will have to make way for english as the common language of india. but that time has not arrived yet.

How will you know when The Time arrives? What are the criteria that you propose for evaluating whether The Time has arrived?

English the language of the present and the future. Otherwise, we'd be having this conversation in Hindi. With all the money the government squandered on educating me and other southerners in Hindi, the language of communication between Indians from different regions has been, is and will be English. Hindi has never played that role, and never will. Even if CBN reads three Hindi newspapers and Vachaspati Mishra of 9th century AD fame thinks a certain way about those who disagree with you.

That we are not haivng this conversation in Hindi is no reflection tof million other conversations between people of different native tongue talking to each other. If you roam about the market place of various cities in India you will find how many conversations happen in English. The language of communication between different regions, historically speaking, has never been English. Again, your southern India is a misrepresentation. If you look at the officially recognized languages of India bulk (>60%) of them would be from North India. All those folks learn Hindi as a second language.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/jan/11/learning-english-india-dalits-rahman

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/jan/11/learning-english-india-dalits-rahman

have you ever seen me opposing the propagation of english? i am all for english. but you need to explain why more and more tamilians are exercising their choice to learn hindi.

i have no desire to explain the action of individuals. you've still provided no proof that tamilians are choosing to learn hindi instead of english. all i see are people who are already well versed in two languages choosing to learn a third.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i have no desire to explain the action of individuals. you've still provided no proof that tamilians are choosing to learn hindi instead of english. all i see are people who are already well versed in two languages choosing to learn a third.

why are many tamilians preferring to do their graduate studies in hindi medium? from the telegraph article whose link i gave earlier:

Even more
surprisingly, many are opting to study university-level humanities
courses offered by the Prachar Sabha — BA, MA, MPhil and PhD in
political science or history as well as BEd — with Hindi as the medium
of instruction.

-----
also, would you agree that there are tamilians who are choosing to learn hindi instead of tamil?

i'd like to see some numbers. how does this compare with the number of people choosing to pursue higher studies in english?

again without numbers to compare, statements like more tamilians are choosing to learn hindi instead of tamil (i presume as a second language in school) is meaningless. for the ones who are indeed choosing to do that, i have two explanations, one of which i have already provided, i.e. there was a perception when i was in school many decades ago that it is easier to score high marks in hindi than tamil. secondly, tamilians already know tamil (they grew up learning it at home); so they use the opportunity to learn a third language.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i'd like to see some numbers. how does this compare with the number of people choosing to pursue higher studies in english?

--> i don't have the numbers since the article does not give those numbers.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:again without numbers to compare, statements like more tamilians are choosing to learn hindi instead of tamil (i presume as a second language in school) is meaningless. for the ones who are indeed choosing to do that, i have two explanations, one of which i have already provided, i.e. there was a perception when i was in school many decades ago that it is easier to score high marks in hindi than tamil. secondly, tamilians already know tamil (they grew up learning it at home); so they use the opportunity to learn a third language.

http://epaper.timesofindia.com/Repository/ml.asp?Ref=VE9JQkcvMjAwOS8wMi8wMyNBcjAxMTAx

if you don't have the numbers, what's the point of making these grand claims? what good are such discussions without some concrete evidence?

and wrt to that other link, aren't you at least a little embarrassed about citing anecdotal evidence from something a parent said about one particular class, her kid's, in an article published in a rag that's almost a newspaper? your entire thesis that more kids are opting for hindi over tamil in TN hinges on such ludicrously laughable and shaky evidence? come on rashmun, even schoolboys writing term papers for their social studies class can do better than that.

artood2 wrote:The language of communication between different regions, historically speaking, has never been English.

It hasn't been Hindi either. When non-English-speaking Telugu people run into non-English-speaking Kannadigas in the marketplace, the exchange does not take place in Hindi. Same for Telugu-Oriya, Telugu-Tamil and Oriya-Bengali interactions (all of which I have observed.) In all those cases, the typical interaction occurs in a mishmash of both languages in question.

artood2 wrote:Again, your southern India is a misrepresentation. If you look at the officially recognized languages of India bulk (>60%) of them would be from North India. All those folks learn Hindi as a second language.

Yet, if you look at official efforts (with taxpayer money) to promote Hindi, the bulk of that happens in southern India. There is no Paschima Bharata Hindi Prachara Sabha.

Rashmun wrote:

charvaka wrote:

Rashmun wrote:english is the language of the future. at some point of time, hindi will have to make way for english as the common language of india. but that time has not arrived yet.

How will you know when The Time arrives? What are the criteria that you propose for evaluating whether The Time has arrived?

I repeat my questions in bold above which you have conveniently ignored.

Rashmun wrote:did you even bother to read the article which i posted in which it is mentioned that more and more tamilians are learning hindi?.

Yes I did. More and more Tamilians are also emitting more and more greenhouse gases. Non sequitur. Has nothing to do with your claim about The Time.

Rashmun wrote:did you read the article where the supreme court judge from tamil nadu encourages tamilians to learn hindi?

Yes I did. Again, non sequitur. Has nothing to do with your claim about The Time.

Rashmun wrote:why are so stuck up about Vachaspati Mishra? He called Charvakas 'more beastly than the beasts' but his reference was to Charvaka philosophers. Do not take it personally.

I am not the one who posted his views obsessively.

btw rashmun that toilet paper of india article is only slightly better than your famous, "when i was in vellore, the waiter at the komala vilas where i had my masal dosa told me...., so .... must be true" method of debating.

Charvaka wrote:

Rashmun wrote:why are so stuck up about Vachaspati Mishra? He called Charvakas 'more beastly than the beasts' but his reference was to Charvaka philosophers. Do not take it personally.

I am not the one who posted his views obsessively.

--> i did his post his views but why are you thinking that his views are somehow attacking you. Should i stop posting criticism of Charvaka philosophers just because you chose the handle name Charvaka for yourself?

Charvaka(in an earlier post): Even if CBN reads three Hindi newspapers and Vachaspati Mishra of 9th
century AD fame thinks a certain way about those who disagree with you.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:btw rashmun that toilet paper of india article is only slightly better than your famous, "when i was in vellore, the waiter at the komala vilas where i had my masal dosa told me...., so .... must be true" method of debating.

--> not to mention my first hand experience with fruit and vegetable sellers and auto walahs and taxi drivers in bangalore. invariably, i found it easier to communicate with these people in hindi rather than english. the reason was that they had a better command over hindi than over english.

Rashmun wrote:

Charvaka wrote:

Rashmun wrote:why are so stuck up about Vachaspati Mishra? He called Charvakas 'more beastly than the beasts' but his reference was to Charvaka philosophers. Do not take it personally.

I am not the one who posted his views obsessively.

--> i did his post his views but why are you thinking that his views are somehow attacking you. Should i stop posting criticism of Charvaka philosophers just because you chose the handle name Charvaka for yourself?

Charvaka(in an earlier post): Even if CBN reads three Hindi newspapers and Vachaspati Mishra of 9th
century AD fame thinks a certain way about those who disagree with you.

--> i posted his views on Charvakas in one thread, and i gave a link to an article on him on another thread. i fail to see how i am 'posting his views obsessively'.

Rashmun wrote:

Charvaka wrote:

Rashmun wrote:why are so stuck up about Vachaspati Mishra? He called Charvakas 'more beastly than the beasts' but his reference was to Charvaka philosophers. Do not take it personally.

I am not the one who posted his views obsessively.

--> i did his post his views...

If you don't have an answer to my initial questions regarding The Time, please don't feel compelled to respond. I am a little short on time, and shorter on patience for your nonsensical distractions.

charvaka wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Charvaka wrote:

Rashmun wrote:why are so stuck up about Vachaspati Mishra? He called Charvakas 'more beastly than the beasts' but his reference was to Charvaka philosophers. Do not take it personally.

I am not the one who posted his views obsessively.

--> i did his post his views...

If you don't have an answer to my initial questions regarding The Time, please don't feel compelled to respond. I am a little short on time, and shorter on patience for your nonsensical distractions.

--> do i have your permission to write criticism on Charvakas or not?

charvaka wrote:f you don't have an answer to my initial questions regarding The Time, please don't feel compelled to respond.

the time is after dronam raju, autorickshaw driver, hyderabad, tells rashmun enroute the airport, that he has mastered hindi and is now ready to receive instruction in english.

charvaka wrote:

artood2 wrote:The language of communication between different regions, historically speaking, has never been English.

It hasn't been Hindi either. When non-English-speaking Telugu people run into non-English-speaking Kannadigas in the marketplace, the exchange does not take place in Hindi. Same for Telugu-Oriya, Telugu-Tamil and Oriya-Bengali interactions (all of which I have observed.) In all those cases, the typical interaction occurs in a mishmash of both languages in question.

I may relate a personal experience. I was traveling in a taxi from
Hyderabad in Andhra Pradesh to Gulbarga in Karnataka where I had to
attend a function. The taxi driver was a Telugu speaking person while
the Professor of Gulbarga University who came to fetch me was a Kannada
speaking gentleman, but they spoke to each other in Hindi. I was
surprised, since both these persons were South Indians, and I asked
them why they were speaking in Hindi. They said that that was because
Hindi was the link language for them both.



http://kgfindia.com/jamia-speech-on-urdu.php

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

charvaka wrote:f you don't have an answer to my initial questions regarding The Time, please don't feel compelled to respond.

the time is after dronam raju, autorickshaw driver, hyderabad, tells rashmun enroute the airport, that he has mastered hindi and is now ready to receive instruction in english.

even after so reading so many news articles on the increasing popularity of hindi in tamil nadu, looks like you are still not convinced.

what am i supposed to be convinced of?

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

charvaka wrote:f you don't have an answer to my initial questions regarding The Time, please don't feel compelled to respond.

the time is after dronam raju, autorickshaw driver, hyderabad, tells rashmun enroute the airport, that he has mastered hindi and is now ready to receive instruction in english.

even after so reading so many news articles on the increasing popularity of hindi in tamil nadu, looks like you are still not convinced.

--> one other article to help you remove that mental block:

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?240235