Re: Hindi in canadian school

by charvaka Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:01 am

Rashmun wrote:
charvaka wrote:
artood2 wrote:The language of communication between different regions, historically speaking, has never been English.
It hasn't been Hindi either. When non-English-speaking Telugu people run into non-English-speaking Kannadigas in the marketplace, the exchange does not take place in Hindi. Same for Telugu-Oriya, Telugu-Tamil and Oriya-Bengali interactions (all of which I have observed.) In all those cases, the typical interaction occurs in a mishmash of both languages in question.

I may relate a personal experience. I was traveling in a taxi from
Hyderabad in Andhra Pradesh to Gulbarga in Karnataka where I had to
attend a function. The taxi driver was a Telugu speaking person while
the Professor of Gulbarga University who came to fetch me was a Kannada
speaking gentleman, but they spoke to each other in Hindi. I was
surprised, since both these persons were South Indians, and I asked
them why they were speaking in Hindi. They said that that was because
Hindi was the link language for them both.

http://kgfindia.com/jamia-speech-on-urdu.php

Rashmun Method: one swallow does make a summer.

by Guest Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:01 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:what am i supposed to be convinced of?

of the increasing popularity of hindi in tamil nadu.

by Guest Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:03 am

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
charvaka wrote:
artood2 wrote:The language of communication between different regions, historically speaking, has never been English.
It hasn't been Hindi either. When non-English-speaking Telugu people run into non-English-speaking Kannadigas in the marketplace, the exchange does not take place in Hindi. Same for Telugu-Oriya, Telugu-Tamil and Oriya-Bengali interactions (all of which I have observed.) In all those cases, the typical interaction occurs in a mishmash of both languages in question.

I may relate a personal experience. I was traveling in a taxi from
Hyderabad in Andhra Pradesh to Gulbarga in Karnataka where I had to
attend a function. The taxi driver was a Telugu speaking person while
the Professor of Gulbarga University who came to fetch me was a Kannada
speaking gentleman, but they spoke to each other in Hindi. I was
surprised, since both these persons were South Indians, and I asked
them why they were speaking in Hindi. They said that that was because
Hindi was the link language for them both.

http://kgfindia.com/jamia-speech-on-urdu.php
Rashmun Method: one swallow does make a summer.

Charvako Logic: When i say telugu people do not use hindi as a link language to communicate with kannadigas, i am right. If someone contradicts me on this, i am gonna go after them.

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:04 am

without actual numbers from something like a census survey or at least a telephone poll conducted by a reputable polling agency or a newspaper, it's hard to be be convinced of such things based on anecdotal evidence published in dodgy articles.

by charvaka Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:07 am

Rashmun wrote:
charvaka wrote:

Charvako Logic: When i say telugu people do not use hindi as a link language to communicate with kannadigas, i am right.

Correct, because I have observed literally thousands of such interactions over the time I have spent in Andhra and Karnataka, including those involving my own parents with our Kannadiga neighbors. You, OTOH, have one random quote from a random Hindi-promoter with an agenda.

by Guest Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:10 am

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
charvaka wrote:

Charvako Logic: When i say telugu people do not use hindi as a link language to communicate with kannadigas, i am right.
Correct, because I have observed literally thousands of such interactions over the time I have spent in Andhra and Karnataka, including those involving my own parents with our Kannadiga neighbors. You, OTOH, have one random quote from a random Hindi-promoter with an agenda.

with respect to hindi, anyone contradicting what you say is a hindi promoter and has an agenda. Charvako Logic!

by Guest Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:12 am

Ironically, I learned a language akin to Hindi when we moved to
Bangalore, in the heart of South India. I learned the language,
moreover, from drivers and watchmen. They all thought of us as North
Indians and assumed that we knew Hindi. The language they taught me
was intimate, sociable, warm, vital, quick, and expressive. “Tum ko
Hindi nai aata, saam?” I remember being asked. I said, “Na. Sirf
thoda thoda aata.” I told them I knew only Marathi and Gujarati. My
first Hindi teachers said, “Koi baat nahin, hum sikhata.” And so my
lessons started.
“Kab aye tum?”

“Phajar ko.”

“Kay hona tumna?”

“Kuch bhi nahin. Jao ji, humna chhod dalo.”

“Tum kidhar rehte?

“Idhar-ich. Isi colony mein. Tumna malum nahin?”

This
is the sort of Hindi we spoke. You may call it Dakhni or Dakhni Urdu,
but it’s spoken in large parts of Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka, and even
in Tamil Nadu. Again, there a local variations. Hyderabadi is a
distinct and much more powerful form than Karnataki. The large Muslim,
Rajput, and other North Indian populations in Bangalore and Mysore,
especially those settled there for over 200 years, speak this language......

Later, I
realized that Hindi or Hindavi or Urdu or Dakhini had a great flowering
in the South much before it reached it high level of sophistication in
Delhi, Agra, and Lucknow. In was in the Deccan that this language
found state patronage in the 14th, 15th, and 16th centuries. Golconda,
Bijapur, Bidar, Gulbarga, the breakaway Sultanates of the Deccan and,
later, Mysore under Hyder Ali and Tipu, patronized this language. The
first ruler and founder of Hyderabad, Quli Qutub Shah, composed love
lyrics in it. The language that I had learned from drivers, watchmen,
and malis was, after all, a noble tongue.

http://www.makarand.com/acad/HindiHainHum.htm

by charvaka Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:23 am

Rashmun wrote:
charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
charvaka wrote:

Charvako Logic: When i say telugu people do not use hindi as a link language to communicate with kannadigas, i am right.
Correct, because I have observed literally thousands of such interactions over the time I have spent in Andhra and Karnataka, including those involving my own parents with our Kannadiga neighbors. You, OTOH, have one random quote from a random Hindi-promoter with an agenda.

with respect to hindi, anyone contradicting what you say is a hindi promoter and has an agenda. Charvako Logic!

Anybody who reads the overly long article you posted can easily understand whether the person who wrote is a Hindi promoter or not, and whether he has an agenda or not.

Are you going to continue to hedge, pussyfoot and other such crap about The Time?

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:28 am

here is an interesting response by an oriya to your outlook article (once again with no numbers to back anything up):

My response to your article Konjam Hindi (Apr 20) might be a bit late
but my feelings on the subject remain quite strong. It’s true that the
anti-Hindi sentiment has mostly declined in the southern states in the
last 10 years. But the fact remains that anti-Hindi sentiment has
nothing to do with Hindi as such but with the imposition of northern
views (in various aspects of governance or misgovernance) on the rest of
the country. Being a migrant from Orissa in Delhi, I can vouch that I
have tried to learn the language with all its "bus jayega or jayegi"
intricacies. But I fail to see the same enthusiasm among north Indians
to learn other languages. I have travelled across the country,
particularly in the south, and I do not have any major difficulty in
interacting with people there. At least most of the government officials
at the block or mandal levels can converse in English. If India as a
federation needs to survive, 40-45 per cent of Indians who speak Hindi
must learn at least one more Indian language voluntarily. If I can speak
four languages—Hindi, English, Oriya and Bengali—with reasonable ease, a
person from the north too can take up Tamil or Marathi.

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:40 am

what i am convinced of is that there is a coterie of dodgy part time journalists, many of them tamils, probably malini iyengar's close relatives, who have bought into your agenda kit and kaboodle, of trying to convince the world that TN is somehow becoming the center of a hindi renaissance.

by charvaka Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:45 am

If India as a federation needs to survive, 40-45 per cent of Indians who speak Hindi must learn at least one more Indian language voluntarily.

Forget about learning another Indian language; the sizable fraction of those Hindi speakers who don't yet know how to read or write should first learn to do so in their native language.

by charvaka Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:48 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:what i am convinced of is that there is a coterie of dodgy part time journalists, many of them tamils, probably malini iyengar's close relatives, who have bought into your agenda kit and kaboodle, of trying to convince the world that TN is somehow becoming the center of a hindi renaissance.

After all, there are taxpayer-funded sinecures to be had for doing that. So pApI pET ke liye people do that only.

by Ponniyin Selvan Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:05 am

I was browsing this forum for a while. This made me ROFL and I have to acknowledge it. Smile

"when i was in vellore, the waiter at the komala vilas where i had my masal dosa told me...., so .... must be true"

by charvaka Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:09 am

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:I was browsing this forum for a while. This made me ROFL and I have to acknowledge it.

"when i was in vellore, the waiter at the komala vilas where i had my masal dosa told me...., so .... must be true"

Hey, welcome aboard!

by Ponniyin Selvan Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:14 am

Thanks. Looks like everyone is here except a few.

by charvaka Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:23 am

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:Thanks. Looks like everyone is here except a few.

Our friend Lukeji hasn't made his way here. Now that you are here, may be you will reel him in. Hope all is well with you.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:25 am

Rashmun wrote:
I may relate a personal experience. I was traveling in a taxi from
Hyderabad in Andhra Pradesh to Gulbarga in Karnataka where I had to
attend a function. The taxi driver was a Telugu speaking person while
the Professor of Gulbarga University who came to fetch me was a Kannada
speaking gentleman, but they spoke to each other in Hindi. I was
surprised, since both these persons were South Indians, and I asked
them why they were speaking in Hindi. They said that that was because
Hindi was the link language for them both.

What was their alternative ? Of course, they COULD have spoken in Chinese.

by Ponniyin Selvan Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:31 am

Doing great. It is close to a year since I moved and it went quite fast..

Hope you are doing great and enjoying the summer.

I agree that without Luke'ji it is different. Maybe old age has caught up with him and he is spending time in some other place. I see that Rashmun is trying his best to take the place.

by Guest Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:45 am

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
charvaka wrote:

Charvako Logic: When i say telugu people do not use hindi as a link language to communicate with kannadigas, i am right.
Correct, because I have observed literally thousands of such interactions over the time I have spent in Andhra and Karnataka, including those involving my own parents with our Kannadiga neighbors. You, OTOH, have one random quote from a random Hindi-promoter with an agenda.

with respect to hindi, anyone contradicting what you say is a hindi promoter and has an agenda. Charvako Logic!
Anybody who reads the overly long article you posted can easily understand whether the person who wrote is a Hindi promoter or not, and whether he has an agenda or not.

Are you going to continue to hedge, pussyfoot and other such crap about The Time?

Anybody whose views contradict your own views on hindi is a hindi promoter and has an agenda. also, are you going to hedge and pussyfoot around my simple question: do i have your permission to post views criticizing Charvakas without you thinking that i am attacking you personally?

by Guest Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:47 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:here is an interesting response by an oriya to your outlook article (once again with no numbers to back anything up):

My response to your article Konjam Hindi (Apr 20) might be a bit late
but my feelings on the subject remain quite strong. It’s true that the
anti-Hindi sentiment has mostly declined in the southern states in the
last 10 years. But the fact remains that anti-Hindi sentiment has
nothing to do with Hindi as such but with the imposition of northern
views (in various aspects of governance or misgovernance) on the rest of
the country. Being a migrant from Orissa in Delhi, I can vouch that I
have tried to learn the language with all its "bus jayega or jayegi"
intricacies. But I fail to see the same enthusiasm among north Indians
to learn other languages. I have travelled across the country,
particularly in the south, and I do not have any major difficulty in
interacting with people there. At least most of the government officials
at the block or mandal levels can converse in English. If India as a
federation needs to survive, 40-45 per cent of Indians who speak Hindi
must learn at least one more Indian language voluntarily. If I can speak
four languages—Hindi, English, Oriya and Bengali—with reasonable ease, a
person from the north too can take up Tamil or Marathi.

----
What do you think of this:

I think the future of Hindi, in spite of what the Government is doing
or not doing, is bright. In my travels across India, I find that it is
Hindi which is used as a link language, whether it is in Shillong or
Port Blair. Even in Tamil Nadu, strangers have come up to me to speak
in Hindi even though I normally would avoid using the language on my
own. This has happened to me so often that I am convinced that the
image of the Hindi-hating Tamilian is grossly untrue. Yes, there is a
politicization of the language issue, but the common people of Tamil
Nadu, I feel reasonably sure, love Hindi. Not just that, whether in
Chennai or Madurai, in Trichy or Coimbatore, Hindi is spoken by
surprisingly large numbers of people. Hindi is also heard in Colombo,
Singapore, Kuala Lumpur and Jakarta, not to speak of London, Paris,
Moscow, Tokyo, New York, and Toronto. In Pakistan and in Bangladesh
large sections of the population understand Hindi. After all, Hindi and
Urdu are sister languages. In Nepal, Hindi is widely understood
because it is so similar to Nepali. Calcutta has a huge Hindi speaking
population. Hindi is also the lingua franca of Mumbai and Hyderabad.
So, Hindi is widely spoken and used in all our metros, from Amritsar to
Thiruvananthapuram.

Though this essay has been mainly a narrative, it does have an
implicit argument. The argument is that Hindi belongs to the vibhashis
as mucha as it does to the Hindi-wallah. In the last hundred years,
it has been promoted by a whole host of protagonists, from Dayanand
Saraswati, Mahatama Gandhi, and Vinoba to Pandurang Shastri Athavale,
Satya Sai Baba, and Asaram Bapu. Hindi is not just the language of film
songs, but also of bhajans all over India. Non-native speakers have
written nearly half of the best literature of Hindi. Not just Ajneya,
Ashak, Muktibodh, Sahani,Vaid, Sobti, and so on, but a whole nation of
Punjabis, Gujaratis, Maharashtrians, Bengalis, Oriyas, and, indeed
people from every corner of the land, have enriched and contributed to
the language.

http://www.makarand.com/acad/HindiHainHum.htm

by Guest Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:51 am

It is good to know that Hindi is being received better these days in TN.

I
was myself raised in a staunchly anti-Hindi Madras. It used to be so
bad that my school received 3 bomb threats (over a period of 7 years) as
it promoted Hindi (I went to an Arya Samaj run school). Thanks to my
parents, I was forced to choose Hindi and Sanskrit in school and despite
my handicap in speaking the language, I can read and write quite well
with limited understanding. Subsequently, due to the efforts of my
Mother and my own interest, I learnt to read Tamil as well.

I
feel that every Indian (including Tamils) must learn Hindi. I'm sure
Tamil chauvinists from TN will disagree with me. But as an Indian living
outside India, I have found that Hindi is the unifying language amongst
Indians. I went to grad school in the US and in a class that had 18
Indian students, I was the only one who could not communicate in Hindi.
Even students from Kerala, AP and Karnataka were fluent.

It was
then that I realized that the DMK had just been propagating a lie that
the spread of Hindi would make Tamil extinct. All my fellow south
Indians continue to speak their mother tongue with the same ease with
which they speak Hindi.

Afterall, Mr.Karunanidhi when asked
about why his grand nephew was being given so much importance in Delhi,
remarked that it was because he had good command over Hindi. So,
obviously he has a different yardstick when it comes to his family.

From
my personal experience, I have found it to be a huge handicap not to be
fluent in Hindi. I'm sure others may disagree. But I hope we start
looking beyond petty politics and learn to adapt and embrace other
languages and culture - assimilating it into ours (without letting go of
ours).

Ashwin

Jersey City, United States

http://www.outlookindia.com/feedbacks.aspx?typ=100&val=240235

by charvaka Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:53 am

Rashmun wrote:
charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:

Charvako Logic: When i say telugu people do not use hindi as a link language to communicate with kannadigas, i am right.
Correct, because I have observed literally thousands of such interactions over the time I have spent in Andhra and Karnataka, including those involving my own parents with our Kannadiga neighbors. You, OTOH, have one random quote from a random Hindi-promoter with an agenda.

with respect to hindi, anyone contradicting what you say is a hindi promoter and has an agenda. Charvako Logic!
Anybody who reads the overly long article you posted can easily understand whether the person who wrote is a Hindi promoter or not, and whether he has an agenda or not.

Are you going to continue to hedge, pussyfoot and other such crap about The Time?

Anybody whose views contradict your own views on hindi is a hindi promoter and has an agenda. also, are you going to hedge and pussyfoot around my simple question: do i have your permission to post views criticizing Charvakas without you thinking that i am attacking you personally?

OK, I am done with this unless you answer my original question to you on this thread.

by Ponniyin Selvan Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:18 am

BTW, I checked with my colleague, a native of Vellore who goes back every week to Vellore on the Hindi knowledge of its denizens.

He says not many residents know Hindi and because of the students of VIT (a famous private engineering college) that attracts a lot of other state students there is a theatre that shows Hindi movies.

None of the shopkeepers he knows in vellore , know Hindi. Smile

by charvaka Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:00 am

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:BTW, I checked with my colleague, a native of Vellore who goes back every week to Vellore on the Hindi knowledge of its denizens.

He says not many residents know Hindi and because of the students of VIT (a famous private engineering college) that attracts a lot of other state students there is a theatre that shows Hindi movies.

None of the shopkeepers he knows in vellore , know Hindi.

Be prepared for the imminent publication in large typeface of a random internet article regarding a Hindian's visit to Vellore where he saw two Tamilians talk to each other in Hindi. Said article is being researched frantically on the world's leading search engines right now. Once that article is posted here, you are toast.

by artood2 Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:14 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
kinnera wrote:I would spend on both.

1.Programs to improve literacy

2. Programs to promote a common indian language.

There's no indication that the first one is suffering because of the second. The illiteracy in bihar, rajastan, up, mp, etc is not because of the govt's promotion of hindi elsewhere. The illiteracy there will not take a giant leap once the govt diverts the trickle that it spends on the promotion of hindi.

in a poor, yes poor (your relatives in hyderabad and bangalore who work for multinationals and own three homes in each of those two cities don't count) and resource constrained country like india, you have to choose. you cannot do both.

Literacy rates

Bihar: 64% (47%)

UP: 70% (56%)

MP: 71% (64%)

Rajasthan: 67% (60%)

AP: 68% (60%)

India: 74% (65%)

Source: Census 2011 website of Govt of India.

The numbers are 2011 census and those in bracket are 2001 census. So all the backward states made significant progress in literacy. The numbers here are for age (7+). So whatever resources we have spent has been well utilized. Beyond a critical mass literacy is a self correcting problem. Older folks are tougher to teach and as their numbers dwindles the numbers look better. Literate folks will not let their kids go illiterate. All govt. needs to do is keep the current level of funding. There is enough resources with Govt. to fund both programs. If resources are needed cut defence spending, prevent unnecessary creation of smaller states and zillion other ways.

by Ponniyin Selvan Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:16 am

charvaka wrote:
Ponniyin Selvan wrote:BTW, I checked with my colleague, a native of Vellore who goes back every week to Vellore on the Hindi knowledge of its denizens.

He says not many residents know Hindi and because of the students of VIT (a famous private engineering college) that attracts a lot of other state students there is a theatre that shows Hindi movies.

None of the shopkeepers he knows in vellore , know Hindi.
Be prepared for the imminent publication in large typeface of a random internet article regarding a Hindian's visit to Vellore where he saw two Tamilians talk to each other in Hindi. Said article is being researched frantically on the world's leading search engines right now. Once that article is posted here, you are toast.

Yup. totally waiting to see the reply.

This whole discussion on the Hindi language is so 1960s.. style. Gone are the days when jobs are created only by the government and hence Government mandated language carries the importance.

In Chennai (as I believe in other growing metros in India) construction workers and industries that require hard physical work, cheap labour is imported from the North and looks like the scales are turned upside down. I guess it is better for those labourers to pick up local languages.

by artood2 Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:34 am

charvaka wrote:It hasn't been Hindi either. When non-English-speaking Telugu people run into non-English-speaking Kannadigas in the marketplace, the exchange does not take place in Hindi. Same for Telugu-Oriya, Telugu-Tamil and Oriya-Bengali interactions (all of which I have observed.) In all those cases, the typical interaction occurs in a mishmash of both languages in question.

Believe it or not, I have seen all mentioned pairs interact in Hindi as well. That does not prove anything one way or other. The fact of the matter is that Oriya guy who travels to Kerala should not need to learn anything new to be at home there. Kids travel all over the country for education or work and they should be able to assimilate. all you need is basic knowledge of a common link language.

charvaka wrote:Yet, if you look at official efforts (with taxpayer money) to promote Hindi, the bulk of that happens in southern India. There is no Paschima Bharata Hindi Prachara Sabha.

The resources (teachers and schools) and will to learn Hindi is already there in those regions, so it is better use of resources if money is spent in areas where resources are not available.

You are talking about English as a link language and at the same time suggesting that people in Hindi belt are illiterate. These two don't get together. English remains an urban/semiurban dominant language (and in most cases those people understand Hindi too). Right now 83 crore people live in rural areas as compared to 37 crore people in urban areas. English as a link language is far far away. Just as you alluded to Oriya/Bangla or Telugu/Tamil connections, it is easier to pick up an Indian language as compared to a foreign one due to inherent common factors in terms of words/grammar borrowed from each other. It makes perfect sense for govt to promote an Indian link language. People who learn Hindi do not stop speaking their native tongue, nor do they stop teaching their kids the native tongue. So Hindi does not take away the importance of native language.

by artood2 Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:42 am

charvaka wrote:
If India as a federation needs to survive, 40-45 per cent of Indians who speak Hindi must learn at least one more Indian language voluntarily.
Forget about learning another Indian language; the sizable fraction of those Hindi speakers who don't yet know how to read or write should first learn to do so in their native language.

I posted the literacy numbers on other thread. If anything, not having a link language would be the biggest threat to federation. Lingusitic boundaries institutionalised the regionalism. It made people from one part of India unwelcome in another even after living there for decades/generations. A link language would have helped foster common identities and better assimilation.

by Another Brick Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:53 am

hindiwalas vs non-hindiwalas.

yeh huwi na baat
arthaat
that's more like it.

this forum has come of age.

by artood2 Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:54 am

Source of literacy data from page

http://censusindia.gov.in/2011census/censusinfodashboard/downloads.html

http://censusindia.gov.in/2011census/censusinfodashboard/stock/profiles/en/CensusInfoData.xls

by Ponniyin Selvan Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:06 am

A link language would have helped foster common identities and better assimilation.

English neatly fits the bill.

by artood2 Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:13 am

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:A link language would have helped foster common identities and better assimilation.

English neatly fits the bill.

What % of the population speaks English?

by Ponniyin Selvan Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:38 am

artood2 wrote:
Ponniyin Selvan wrote:A link language would have helped foster common identities and better assimilation.

English neatly fits the bill.

What % of the population speaks English?

Growing and Influential %

by Guest Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:52 am

Another Brick wrote:hindiwalas vs non-hindiwalas.

yeh huwi na baat
arthaat
that's more like it.

this forum has come of age.

Hindi in canadian school - Page 3 459784477

thaliyan!

*thread bookmarked for later reading*

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Aug 05, 2011 7:32 am

i see the word assimilate all over this thread. it is an ugly, big brotherly, and imperialistic word. i don't care for it at all. the only people who like using the word as a justification for a link language are insecure hindi wallahs. quite apart from the economic reasons i have given, another reason i'd strongly urge tamilians and other southern indians to not give in is the word assimilate with all its ugly political connotations. i do not want to be assimilated into a formless, nebulous whole. the beauty of india IMO and its strength is its diversity. it's something that's worth preserving.

by .|Sublime|. Fri Aug 05, 2011 7:39 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
*thread bookmarked for later reading*

instead of this 3 page mish mash of words may i offer you "Secret of the Nagas" by our favorite author. you can pre-order it now and good things come to those who wait.
how is your son's reading coming along?

by Guest Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:28 am

Rashmun wrote:It is good to know that Hindi is being received better these days in TN.

I
was myself raised in a staunchly anti-Hindi Madras. It used to be so
bad that my school received 3 bomb threats (over a period of 7 years) as
it promoted Hindi (I went to an Arya Samaj run school). Thanks to my
parents, I was forced to choose Hindi and Sanskrit in school and despite
my handicap in speaking the language, I can read and write quite well
with limited understanding. Subsequently, due to the efforts of my
Mother and my own interest, I learnt to read Tamil as well.

I
feel that every Indian (including Tamils) must learn Hindi. I'm sure
Tamil chauvinists from TN will disagree with me. But as an Indian living
outside India, I have found that Hindi is the unifying language amongst
Indians. I went to grad school in the US and in a class that had 18
Indian students, I was the only one who could not communicate in Hindi.
Even students from Kerala, AP and Karnataka were fluent.

It was
then that I realized that the DMK had just been propagating a lie that
the spread of Hindi would make Tamil extinct. All my fellow south
Indians continue to speak their mother tongue with the same ease with
which they speak Hindi.

Afterall, Mr.Karunanidhi when asked
about why his grand nephew was being given so much importance in Delhi,
remarked that it was because he had good command over Hindi. So,
obviously he has a different yardstick when it comes to his family.

From
my personal experience, I have found it to be a huge handicap not to be
fluent in Hindi. I'm sure others may disagree. But I hope we start
looking beyond petty politics and learn to adapt and embrace other
languages and culture - assimilating it into ours (without letting go of
ours).

Ashwin

Jersey City, United States

http://www.outlookindia.com/feedbacks.aspx?typ=100&val=240235

Max, what is your opinion on the above?

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:30 am

Rashmun wrote:
Max, what is your opinion on the above?

tosh

by Guest Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:33 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Max, what is your opinion on the above?

tosh

does that mean 'speechless'?

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:33 am

no it means bilgewater.

by Guest Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:34 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:no it means bilgewater.

i suppose this is in reference to that school in TN receiving bomb threats just because it was promoting hindi. i am glad to know that you are a peace loving man.

by Guest Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:19 am

.|Sublime|. wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
*thread bookmarked for later reading*

instead of this 3 page mish mash of words may i offer you "Secret of the Nagas" by our favorite author. you can pre-order it now and good things come to those who wait.
how is your son's reading coming along?

oh missed this post. was just reading up this thread and i find artood2's points interesting. hindi prachar and education of the illiterate in the hindi belt need not be treated as mutually exclusive allocations of resources. makes perfect sense.

the sequel is out? ok, i'm ordering it right now. i won't get an ebook version i think but i don't need one. the kid's busy with the ipad and he's finished his first novel, thirteen reasons why. a small break now before he chooses the next. but he's firmly in the reading groove now -- reads 20/30 pages every night. i feel like i should donate some money to SUCH Foundation 'cos i i have benefited so much from them. on another note, i'm thinking of pampering myself with the htc flyer (i'm facinated by the magic pen). what about you? what do you pamper yourself with? ipad or kindle?

by charvaka Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:51 am

artood2 wrote:
charvaka wrote:
If India as a federation needs to survive, 40-45 per cent of Indians who speak Hindi must learn at least one more Indian language voluntarily.
Forget about learning another Indian language; the sizable fraction of those Hindi speakers who don't yet know how to read or write should first learn to do so in their native language.

I posted the literacy numbers on other thread. If anything, not having a link language would be the biggest threat to federation. Lingusitic boundaries institutionalised the regionalism. It made people from one part of India unwelcome in another even after living there for decades/generations. A link language would have helped foster common identities and better assimilation.

Assimilation is neither necessary nor desirable. There is nothing bad about the existence of regional identities. India's incredible diversity is the result of thousands of years of cultural evolution; I would rather that people who move from one part of India to another (a miniscule percentage of its population) have to learn the local language to feel completely at home in their new chosen home, rather than giving up India's diversity based on the Soviet or the Chinese model.

When two people speaking different languages, who picks up whose language is a matter best left to the market to decide. If left to the market, customer is king. A good chunk of people who move across regions in India speak English. Those who don't are moving for construction jobs and other physical labor that they provide to their customers. If they want opportunities in say Bangalore or Chennai, they ought to learn the local language. The central government's promotion of Hindi with my tax money puts Telugu-speaking laborers at a competitive disadvantage over Hindi-speaking laborers in Bangalore and Chennai. Despite the centuries of active links between the Telugu people and their neighbors without any such "link language" nonsense.

by Guest Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:56 am

Impedimenta wrote:
Rashmun wrote:why are more and more tamilians in tamil nadu learning hindi?
beats me. they shouldn't.

they shouldn't also be passing out polluting greenhouse gases. non sequitur madam.

by charvaka Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:05 pm

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
Impedimenta wrote:
Rashmun wrote:why are more and more tamilians in tamil nadu learning hindi?
beats me. they shouldn't.

they shouldn't also be passing out polluting greenhouse gases. non sequitur madam.

by artood2 Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:09 pm

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:
artood2 wrote:
Ponniyin Selvan wrote:A link language would have helped foster common identities and better assimilation.

English neatly fits the bill.

What % of the population speaks English?

Growing and Influential %

bollocks

by charvaka Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:10 pm

artood2 wrote:
Ponniyin Selvan wrote:
artood2 wrote:
Ponniyin Selvan wrote:A link language would have helped foster common identities and better assimilation.

English neatly fits the bill.

What % of the population speaks English?

Growing and Influential %

bollocks

You think the percentage of Indians who speak English is not growing? Or that influential people don't speak English?

by Guest Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:14 pm

i think the argument ought to be reframed.

let us first reach a consensus (or start to debate) on what languages the privileged or middle and above classes ought to learn. the fact is that the children of these classes are taught three languages in their schools -- across states -- be they in private or public schools. we are tacitly a nation of trilingual ruling public. english is one of the languages we were taught. what ought to be the other two languages our children should learn?

by artood2 Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:15 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i see the word assimilate all over this thread. it is an ugly, big brotherly, and imperialistic word. i don't care for it at all. the only people who like using the word as a justification for a link language are insecure hindi wallahs. quite apart from the economic reasons i have given, another reason i'd strongly urge tamilians and other southern indians to not give in is the word assimilate with all its ugly political connotations. i do not want to be assimilated into a formless, nebulous whole. the beauty of india IMO and its strength is its diversity. it's something that's worth preserving.

I saw a word "imperialistic" all over this thread. That is the word people used to describe English.

You gave no valid economic reasons. Your "dont care" is neither a justified argument nor an economic reason. You stop representing "south indians" because you do not. There are native Hindi speakers in South India and what is the basis of your definition of south India? Assimilation does not mean loss of diversity. It would just mean breaking barriers: more inter marriages, breaking tribal mentalities (yes i am looking at you sir) and better understanding and respect of other cultures.

by artood2 Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:17 pm

charvaka wrote:
artood2 wrote:
Ponniyin Selvan wrote:
artood2 wrote:
Ponniyin Selvan wrote:A link language would have helped foster common identities and better assimilation.

English neatly fits the bill.

What % of the population speaks English?

Growing and Influential %

bollocks
You think the percentage of Indians who speak English is not growing? Or that influential people don't speak English?

so is the %age of hindi speakers? %age of English speakers is nowhere near as big to be considered a link language. I can't believe you are using illiteracy of people and English as a link language in the same argument.

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