terminology

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:03 pm

this summer we've been seeing a raft of invitations for bharathanAtyam "rangapravEsham" invitations, mostly from telugu and kannadigaa families. it seems like somebody somewhere decided they aren't going to use the tamil word for the debut performance of their child who has been learning a quintessentially tamil performing art, and the sentiment has spread like wildfire.

too funny.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:05 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:this summer we've been seeing a raft of invitations for bharathanAtyam "rangapravEsham" invitations, mostly from telugu and kannada families. it seems like somebody somewhere decided they aren't going to use the tamil word for the debut performance of their child who has been learning a quintessentially tamil performing art, and the sentiment has spread like wildfire.

too funny.

I found this as well during my FBionage.

by Hellsangel Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:24 pm

Yeah. They are such ingratiators for using Sanskrit words.

by Guest Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:31 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:this summer we've been seeing a raft of invitations for bharathanAtyam "rangapravEsham" invitations, mostly from telugu and kannadigaa families. it seems like somebody somewhere decided they aren't going to use the tamil word for the debut performance of their child who has been learning a quintessentially tamil performing art, and the sentiment has spread like wildfire.

too funny.

Everytime I see a sandhi of any word with pravesham, I sorta giggle. Kinda silly I know, but I do.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:31 pm

Hellsangel wrote:Yeah. They are such ingratiators for using Sanskrit words.

no desire at all to get into a long winded and pointless argument, except this. that it is a sanskrit word is quite besides the point. that word is used primarily in kuchipudi. bharathanatyam was born and has evolved in TN, and has its own home grown vocabulary, nearly all of it in tamil. so it's clear that the importing of a word from a different art form, when another one has been in use all along, is an exercise born out of some deep insecurities.

by Hellsangel Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:35 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:Yeah. They are such ingratiators for using Sanskrit words.

no desire at all to get into a long winded and pointless argument, except this. that it is a sanskrit word is quite besides the point. that word is used primarily in kuchipudi. bharathanatyam was born and has evolved in TN, and has its own home grown vocabulary, nearly all of it in tamil. so it's clear that the importing of a word from a different art form, when another one has been in use all along, seems to me to be an exercise solely born out of some deep insecurities.

Yep. Telugus and Kannadigas really should stop screwing the Tamils sideways.

by Guest Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:37 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:Yeah. They are such ingratiators for using Sanskrit words.

no desire at all to get into a long winded and pointless argument, except this. that it is a sanskrit word is quite besides the point. that word is used primarily in kuchipudi. bharathanatyam was born and has evolved in TN, and has its own home grown vocabulary, nearly all of it in tamil. so it's clear that the importing of a word from a different art form, when another one has been in use all along, seems to me to be an exercise solely born out of some deep insecurities.

I don't know, I think it's perfectly legit to use it. rangapravesham is not married to kuchipudi art form, is it? using a term that people/target audience will understand instantly, what's so wrong about that?

If you were writing these invites in English, would you say debut performance, or use the original word, is it aranganetram?

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:39 pm

Beatrix Kiddo wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:Yeah. They are such ingratiators for using Sanskrit words.

no desire at all to get into a long winded and pointless argument, except this. that it is a sanskrit word is quite besides the point. that word is used primarily in kuchipudi. bharathanatyam was born and has evolved in TN, and has its own home grown vocabulary, nearly all of it in tamil. so it's clear that the importing of a word from a different art form, when another one has been in use all along, seems to me to be an exercise solely born out of some deep insecurities.

I don't know, I think it's perfectly legit to use it. rangapravesham is not married to kuchipudi art form, is it? using a term that people/target audience will understand instantly, what's so wrong about that?

If you were writing these invites in English, would you say debut performance, or use the original word, is it aranganetram?

the rabbit hole beckons, but i will avoid. thanks.

by Guest Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:43 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Beatrix Kiddo wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:Yeah. They are such ingratiators for using Sanskrit words.

no desire at all to get into a long winded and pointless argument, except this. that it is a sanskrit word is quite besides the point. that word is used primarily in kuchipudi. bharathanatyam was born and has evolved in TN, and has its own home grown vocabulary, nearly all of it in tamil. so it's clear that the importing of a word from a different art form, when another one has been in use all along, seems to me to be an exercise solely born out of some deep insecurities.

I don't know, I think it's perfectly legit to use it. rangapravesham is not married to kuchipudi art form, is it? using a term that people/target audience will understand instantly, what's so wrong about that?

If you were writing these invites in English, would you say debut performance, or use the original word, is it aranganetram?

the rabbit hole beckons, but i will avoid. thanks.

arre it wasn't that nonsensical, lol.

do tamils learn kuchipudi? I mean what's the percent?

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:45 pm

Hellsangel wrote:Yeah. They are such ingratiators for using Sanskrit words.

When I saw that Rangapravesam... I did not understand it as I never heard suca word. I assumed it must be some Super-Arangetram.

Whatever.. all those who attained Rangapravesam are doing hoogie-boogie on Fri/Sat nights going by their respective pics.

by indophile Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:47 pm

Yeah, it kind of cuts both ways. I've seen invitations for Odissi "arangetrams" when the word to be used for that dance form is - "mancha-pravesh," and I've seen invitations for Kuchipudi "arangetrams" too, when the proper word there is "rangapravesham." I guess people don't care about what word is used as long as it is understood that it is the first performance for the girl (I've not seen boy arangetrams or rangapraveshams celebrated by parents with dhoom-dham). In this country, it is usually the girl is about to go to college, and she has no more time to spend on perfection. Parents want a closure on the arts learning - be it dance or music.

by smArtha Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:34 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:that it is a sanskrit word is quite besides the point. that word is used primarily in kuchipudi. bharathanatyam was born and has evolved in TN

BN originated in TN? As in, Bharata Muni and Natya Sastra came from TN? This is news to me. Do you have any references that establish where Bharata Muni was born or where he composed the Natya Sastra? Also, if all of the vocabulary of the dance form is in Tamil then why did the name of the dance form itself is in Sanskrit?

by Guest Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:39 pm

smArtha wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:that it is a sanskrit word is quite besides the point. that word is used primarily in kuchipudi. bharathanatyam was born and has evolved in TN

BN originated in TN? As in, Bharata Muni and Natya Sastra came from TN? This is news to me. Do you have any references that establish where Bharata Muni was born or where he composed the Natya Sastra? Also, if all of the vocabulary of the dance form is in Tamil then why did the name of the dance form itself is in Sanskrit?

According to the Tamils themselves Bharata Muni was a kashmiri. Moreover, the earliest known commentary on the Naatya Shastra is by a Kashmiri scholar and aesthete--Abhinavagupta--who lived in kashmir and who is known to have had tamil students (like Govindaraja).

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:46 pm

smArtha wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:that it is a sanskrit word is quite besides the point. that word is used primarily in kuchipudi. bharathanatyam was born and has evolved in TN

BN originated in TN? As in, Bharata Muni and Natya Sastra came from TN? This is news to me. Do you have any references that establish where Bharata Muni was born or where he composed the Natya Sastra? Also, if all of the vocabulary of the dance form is in Tamil then why did the name of the dance form itself is in Sanskrit?

we had a very long and arduous discussion some years ago where i gave copious references on sulekha. not about to go down that path again. but briefly if you are asking with honest intentions and not the desire for one upmanship -- bharathanAtyam may have been inspired by the nAtya shastra, but the performance regimen, the nattuvangams, the various styles - vazhuvUr, kalakshetra, pandanallur etc., and all of the grammar were set forth in TN where it was known as chathirAttam practiced by temple dancers. indeed much of the BN terminology -- e.g. arai maNdi, translation -- the half kneel is in tamil. the tambrahms entered the field somewhat late in the game, late 19th century and to sort of sterilize it and to take away the stigma of its association with devadAsis they began referring to it as bharathanAtyam. most of the core pieces that are performed, notwithstanding modern additions are very much in tamil. i am not going to repeat a very long discussion that i've had all over again and i lack the energy to dig it all up. i wish you well on your quest if you want to learn. you may want to ask impedimenta here who is a very proficient dancer not to mention highly knowledgeable about the history and development of BN.

here is a wikipedia link to one of THE two central figures in the development of the modern form of BN (the other being the kalakshetra founder rukmini devi arundale). IMO, studying her life and the contributions of her family and herself to BN and to CM will be highly educational if one's quest is to learn about the historical roots of BN :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balasaraswati

note: i am not claiming that tamils had sole authorship of CM. that is an art that was truly a collaborative effort between telugus, tamils, and kannadigas. there have been giants of CM from all three linguistic groups, not to mention malayalis. BN is another story.

by smArtha Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:06 pm

So the theory here is that even though there may have been a classical/ancient Bharata Natyam (based on the Natya Sastra, Natya Veda and its derivatives) it is not the one in vogue now. The art form being propagated as 'Bharata Natyam' today is wholly (or mostly) taken from Tamil Devadasi dance forms and dressed up/sanitized by the 19th century Brahmins (for whatever reasons).

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:07 pm

the thanjAvur quartet also played a seminal role. more here:

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Tiruchirapalli/preserve-the-house-of-tanjore-quartet/article437551.ece

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:08 pm

smArtha wrote:So the theory here is that even though there may have been a classical/ancient Bharata Natyam (based on the Natya Sastra, Natya Veda and its derivatives) it is not the one in vogue now. The art form being propagated as 'Bharata Natyam' today is wholly (or mostly) taken from Tamil Devadasi dance forms and dressed up/sanitized by the 19th century Brahmins (for whatever reasons).

i wish you well in your exciting quest.

by Guest Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:23 pm

smArtha wrote:So the theory here is that even though there may have been a classical/ancient Bharata Natyam (based on the Natya Sastra, Natya Veda and its derivatives) it is not the one in vogue now. The art form being propagated as 'Bharata Natyam' today is wholly (or mostly) taken from Tamil Devadasi dance forms and dressed up/sanitized by the 19th century Brahmins (for whatever reasons).

i will just point out that descriptions of certain BharataNatyam postures found in statues/carvings in certain temples of Tamil Nadu like the Nataraja Temple at Chidambaram are found to match in toto their descriptions given in the Naatya Shastra.
Max is right in that tamilians like the Tanjore Quartet certainly refined modern Bharatanatyam but to say that the dance form originated in Tamil Nadu is probably a stretch.

by Guest Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:28 pm

Rashmun wrote:
smArtha wrote:So the theory here is that even though there may have been a classical/ancient Bharata Natyam (based on the Natya Sastra, Natya Veda and its derivatives) it is not the one in vogue now. The art form being propagated as 'Bharata Natyam' today is wholly (or mostly) taken from Tamil Devadasi dance forms and dressed up/sanitized by the 19th century Brahmins (for whatever reasons).

i will just point out that descriptions of certain BharataNatyam postures found in statues/carvings in certain temples of Tamil Nadu like the Nataraja Temple at Chidambaram are found to match in toto their descriptions given in the Naatya Shastra.
Max is right in that tamilians like the Tanjore Quartet certainly refined modern Bharatanatyam but to say that the dance form originated in Tamil Nadu is probably a stretch.

The Naatya Shastra is a very comprehensive text--more comprehensive than modern Bharatanatyam. To give an example, the Naatya Shastra contains descriptions of entire plays enacted by one or two actors only (the same actors take on the roles of different characters). This kind of play is not to be found in Tamil Nadu although it is to be found in Kashmir. This is another indication that the Naatya Shastra originated in Kashmir. Tamils themselves say that Bharata Muni--credited for having written the NS--was a Kashmiri. and the earliest known commentary on the text is by the kashmiri Abhinavagupta. So let us give credit where it is due.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:44 pm

smArtha -- i can't respond to rashmun's BS which he has been repeating ad nauseam for many years, but since you asked, here is a volume about the life of rukmini devi arundale edited by prof. avanthika meduri of roehampton university in the UK :

http://books.google.com/books?id=uNYZ1vp-xFIC&pg=PA222&lpg=PA222&dq=%E2%80%9CModern+History+of+Bharatanatyam:+Vibrant+Form+or+Export+Commodity.%E2%80%9D+Voices1+(3):+53-57.&source=bl&ots=AtH4QFH78Z&sig=lTKrLsOgC29H6HfheeTdlvai-vo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TUzEU92wJ9WnyATtlICABQ&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%E2%80%9CModern%20History%20of%20Bharatanatyam%3A%20Vibrant%20Form%20or%20Export%20Commodity.%E2%80%9D%20Voices1%20(3)%3A%2053-57.&f=false

rukmini devi was responsible in large measure for the stigma erasure of cathirAttam, making it a cleaned up art form for "good" tambrahm girls to dabble in something that was the realm of devadAsis. the metamorphosis of cathirAttam and the introduction of the nAtyashAstra motif to make it sound more ancient than it actually was can in large measure be attributed to her and the tambrahm establishment around her. it is reasonable to surmise that the inspiration for chatirAttam aka BN came partly from the nAtya shastra, but it did not originate there. (a quick synopsis is from pages 11-18).

by Guest Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:50 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:smArtha -- i can't respond to rashmun's BS which he has been repeating ad nauseam for many years, but since you asked, here is a volume about the life of rukmini devi arundale edited by prof. avanthika meduri of roehampton university in the UK :

http://books.google.com/books?id=uNYZ1vp-xFIC&pg=PA222&lpg=PA222&dq=%E2%80%9CModern+History+of+Bharatanatyam:+Vibrant+Form+or+Export+Commodity.%E2%80%9D+Voices1+(3):+53-57.&source=bl&ots=AtH4QFH78Z&sig=lTKrLsOgC29H6HfheeTdlvai-vo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TUzEU92wJ9WnyATtlICABQ&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%E2%80%9CModern%20History%20of%20Bharatanatyam%3A%20Vibrant%20Form%20or%20Export%20Commodity.%E2%80%9D%20Voices1%20(3)%3A%2053-57.&f=false

rukmini devi was responsible in large measure for the stigma erasure of cathirAttam, making it a cleaned up art form for "good" tambrahm girls to dabble in something that was the realm of devadAsis. the metamorphosis of cathirAttam and the introduction of the nAtyashAstra motif to make it sound more ancient than it actually was can in large measure be attributed to her and the tambrahm establishment around her. it is reasonable to surmise that the inspiration for chatirAttam aka BN came partly from the nAtya shastra, but it did not originate there. (a quick synopsis is from pages 11-18).

Max was the person who first told me that the postures found inscribed as sculptures/figurines, etc. in some of the temples in Tamil Nadu like the Nataraja Temple are taken directly from the Naatya Shaastra. The Nataraja Temple is believed to be at least a thousand years old.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:53 pm

chatirAttam is indeed quite ancient, modernized by the tanjore quartet.

also a word of caution to anyone reading this thread. i don't intend posting much more than i've already said, but with no responses from me (mostly out of sheer tiredness and frustration of arguing with a mule), this of course will give wide latitude for rashmun to twist and contort things i have said in the past to suit his agenda. so bags of salt at the ready as you take in the mountains of bovine excrement that this thread is about to be blitzkrieged by.

by Guest Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:55 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:chatirAttam is indeed quite ancient, modernized by the tanjore quartet.

i am unable to understand where there is a dispute between us. i am agreeing with you that the original dance form described in Naatya Shastra and represented in statues and figurines in temples like the Nataraja temple was modernized by the tanjore quartet.

by Guest Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:57 pm

haha. the day everyone starts agreeing with Max, he will go into serious self-doubt.

by Guest Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:15 pm

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:chatirAttam is indeed quite ancient, modernized by the tanjore quartet.

i am unable to understand where there is a dispute between us. i am agreeing with you that the original dance form described in Naatya Shastra and represented in statues and figurines in temples like the Nataraja temple was modernized by the tanjore quartet.

let me state our disagreement as i understand it. in an earlier discussion you had compared the modern Bharatanatyam (after the dance form was modernized/refined by the Tanjore Quartet) to modern physics and the BN described in Naatya Shastra to the physics as understood by the ancients. This is where i don't agree with you. I don't think the difference is that drastic. u can perhaps compare the earlier dance form to Dhrupad and modern BN to Khayaal ( i am not happy with even this comparison but i think it is better than the modern physics vs ancient physics comparison).

by smArtha Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:41 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i wish you well in your exciting quest.

Based on some information I've gathered during my limited interactions with exponents of BN as well as knowing some life history of Rukmini Devi, I can consider this possibility. I'll need to dig more to conclude if I can lean towards this or not.

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