The main differences between Kuchipudi and Bharatanatyam.......

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Sun Apr 26, 2015 9:10 am

The Kuchipudi tradition adopted elements from Yakshaganam. So, it is more than just a dance and usually doesn't involve solo performances; it is more like a ballet/stage-play. Bharatanatyam was influenced by the Devadasi tradition (Amrapali and Umrao-jaan like). It used to be essentially a solo performance.

In traditional Kuchipudi dance, the dancer used to sing his/her own songs and deliver dialogues! So, if a dancer performs for 30 min, he/she is quite fit. In Bharatanatyam, the dancer is not even obligated to move his/her lips. These days, Kuchipudi dancers still move their lips but someone else sings and delivers dialogues.

Kuchipudi dancers do their squatting early in the morning when they do their "job" and come to their performances light and agile. In Bharatanatyam, there are several squatting postures during the dance itself :-).

There are other differences .......

by Seva Lamberdar Sun Apr 26, 2015 1:12 pm

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:The Kuchipudi tradition adopted elements from Yakshaganam. So, it is more than just a dance and usually doesn't involve solo performances; it is more like a ballet/stage-play. Bharatanatyam was influenced by the Devadasi tradition (Amrapali and Umrao-jaan like). It used to be essentially a solo performance.

In traditional Kuchipudi dance, the dancer used to sing his/her own songs and deliver dialogues! So, if a dancer performs for 30 min, he/she is quite fit. In Bharatanatyam, the dancer is not even obligated to move his/her lips. These days, Kuchipudi dancers still move their lips but someone else sings and delivers dialogues.

Kuchipudi dancers do their squatting early in the morning when they do their "job" and come to their performances light and agile. In Bharatanatyam, there are several squatting postures during the dance itself :-).

LOL.

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:30 pm

Padmabhushan awardee Yamini Krishna Murthy who did both Bharatanatyam and Kuchipudi:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc0Egvn6PWs&list=PLz3M3GDJBvMqNO4amdoHKPBZqT_DQ9_du&index=1

by Seva Lamberdar Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:41 pm

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:Padmabhushan awardee Yamini Krishna Murthy who did both Bharatanatyam and Kuchipudi:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc0Egvn6PWs&list=PLz3M3GDJBvMqNO4amdoHKPBZqT_DQ9_du&index=1

She seems like a very good dancer. Thanks for posting the link.

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:08 pm

If you can't decide if a dance is Kuchipudi or Bharatanatyam, just look at the pleats in the saree in front. If there are two or three levels - it is bharatanatyam and if it is one long level of pleets, it is Kuchipudi.

Here is an example of Kuchipudi by students:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGhxTMIPZag

Here is a piece by a competent Kuchipudi dancer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tw9qFPquTGA

Here is a popular Kuchipudi piece (Bhama kalapam - Krishna's consort Satyabhama declaring how attractive she is :-)):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITxzKb2JWbo

by pravalika nanda Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:07 pm

i think it's strange that grown women put on that much makeup and jewelry and flowers and get on a stage to show off their moves. it's to entice men. certainly that was the primary purpose of bn. to entice men and make some money. both are excellent reasons to put on that slow dance. if it was too fast, like in fast forward indian men in the audience might be overwhelmed and feel overshadowed. they do not want their women to move too fast and certainly not faster than themselves and their lazy behinds.

what I don't understand is why women over the age of 24 would waste precious time on that pasty makeup, katika to kill, hand paint, dress, etc. you have be a fairly narcissistic, inconsiderate woman to subject any audience to this nuisance. it's gaudy, it's trash but tambs decided to call it culture and there you have it, south india's greatest artistic legacy second only to cm. oh! Bharatha Muni! what was that loser doing this slow dance when he could've done something more responsible with his time.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:10 pm

PN -- if you don't like traditional BN check out savitha sastry's one woman dance theatre. you may enjoy it more.

by southindian Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:10 pm

LOL @squatting

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:13 pm

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:If you can't decide if a dance is Kuchipudi or Bharatanatyam, just look at the pleats in the saree in front. If there are two or three levels - it is bharatanatyam and if it is one long level of pleets, it is Kuchipudi.

Here is an example of Kuchipudi by students:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGhxTMIPZag

Here is a piece by a competent Kuchipudi dancer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tw9qFPquTGA

Here is a popular Kuchipudi piece (Bhama kalapam - Krishna's consort Satyabhama declaring how attractive she is :-)):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITxzKb2JWbo

before teaching about differences between BN and kuchipudi which are closely related dance forms, you may want to provide him some guidance on distinguishing between bollywood mughal harem dance and BN. he seems quite confused about that.

by bw Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:17 pm

pravalika nanda wrote:i think it's strange that grown women put on that much makeup and jewelry and flowers and get on a stage to show off their moves. it's to entice men. certainly that was the primary purpose of bn. to entice men and make some money. both are excellent reasons to put on that slow dance. if it was too fast, like in fast forward indian men in the audience might be overwhelmed and feel overshadowed. they do not want their women to move too fast and certainly not faster than themselves and their lazy behinds.

what I don't understand is why women over the age of 24 would waste precious time on that pasty makeup, katika to kill, hand paint, dress, etc. you have be a fairly narcissistic, inconsiderate woman to subject any audience to this nuisance. it's gaudy, it's trash but tambs decided to call it culture and there you have it, south india's greatest artistic legacy second only to cm. oh! Bharatha Muni! what was that loser doing this slow dance when he could've done something more responsible with his time.

nice! glad you didn't go away to another forum.

haha@"you have be a fairly narcissistic, inconsiderate woman to subject any audience to this nuisance"

...but the audience have the choice of not watching it, don't they? unless of course they are friends and family and can't escape it.

by pravalika nanda Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:26 pm

bw wrote:
pravalika nanda wrote:i think it's strange that grown women put on that much makeup and jewelry and flowers and get on a stage to show off their moves. it's to entice men. certainly that was the primary purpose of bn. to entice men and make some money. both are excellent reasons to put on that slow dance. if it was too fast, like in fast forward indian men in the audience might be overwhelmed and feel overshadowed. they do not want their women to move too fast and certainly not faster than themselves and their lazy behinds.

what I don't understand is why women over the age of 24 would waste precious time on that pasty makeup, katika to kill, hand paint, dress, etc. you have be a fairly narcissistic, inconsiderate woman to subject any audience to this nuisance. it's gaudy, it's trash but tambs decided to call it culture and there you have it, south india's greatest artistic legacy second only to cm. oh! Bharatha Muni! what was that loser doing this slow dance when he could've done something more responsible with his time.

nice! glad you didn't go away to another forum.
sweety, is that what you thought? i was just busy with work. my eyes are tired. but you know me, i always make time for constructive criticism!

haha@"you have be a fairly narcissistic, inconsiderate woman to subject any audience to this nuisance"

...but the audience have the choice of not watching it, don't they? unless of course they are friends and family and can't escape it.

by bw Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:31 pm

pravalika nanda wrote:
sweety, is that what you thought? i was just busy with work. my eyes are tired. but you know me, i always make time for constructive criticism!

thought i read a post of yours where you had stated that you were planning to abandon this forum and find another one. maybe it was someone else.

oh, am so grateful that you take some time off for posting these nuggets. daddy's little girl posts are also fun.

by pravalika nanda Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:00 pm

bw wrote:
pravalika nanda wrote:
sweety, is that what you thought? i was just busy with work. my eyes are tired. but you know me, i always make time for constructive criticism!

thought i read a post of yours where you had stated that you were planning to abandon this forum and find another one. maybe it was someone else.

oh, am so grateful that you take some time off for posting these nuggets. daddy's little girl posts are also fun.

oh, it was me but i said I'd that in two months three weeks ago. so you still have me for five more weeks - just like an orchid in a city apartment. but don't worry, you're on my No Friend Left Behind plan and i think we should find another forum to transplant ourselves to. one with more people and varied topics.you guys just want to talk about bn all day! whyyyy?

by pravalika nanda Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:05 pm

bw wrote:
pravalika nanda wrote:
sweety, is that what you thought? i was just busy with work. my eyes are tired. but you know me, i always make time for constructive criticism!

thought i read a post of yours where you had stated that you were planning to abandon this forum and find another one. maybe it was someone else.

oh, am so grateful that you take some time off for posting these nuggets. daddy's little girl posts are also fun.

** oh, hardly how would i would characterize the relationship. he was so surprised when i completed my training that he gave me a new car.

by southindian Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:15 pm

Why is the boudi in the video dressed like a jewellery shop?

Maybe she doesn't have a bank locker.

by Hellsangel Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:17 pm

bw wrote:
pravalika nanda wrote:
sweety, is that what you thought? i was just busy with work. my eyes are tired. but you know me, i always make time for constructive criticism!

thought i read a post of yours where you had stated that you were planning to abandon this forum and find another one. maybe it was someone else.

oh, am so grateful that you take some time off for posting these nuggets. daddy's little girl posts are also fun.

Janice should be so grateful to have you rooting for her.

by bw Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:22 pm

pravalika nanda wrote:
bw wrote:
pravalika nanda wrote:
sweety, is that what you thought? i was just busy with work. my eyes are tired. but you know me, i always make time for constructive criticism!

thought i read a post of yours where you had stated that you were planning to abandon this forum and find another one. maybe it was someone else.

oh, am so grateful that you take some time off for posting these nuggets. daddy's little girl posts are also fun.

oh, it was me but i said I'd that in two months three weeks ago. so you still have me for five more weeks - just like an orchid in a city apartment. but don't worry, you're on my No Friend Left Behind plan and i think we should find another forum to transplant ourselves to. one with more people and varied topics.you guys just want to talk about bn all day! whyyyy?

no orchids for ms.blandish. did you ever read james hadley chase?

oh, i will follow you to another forum if you find a more vibrant forum. i talk about BN coz no one if talking of anything more interesting (to me).

by southindian Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:25 pm

PN, BharatNatyam can also be exciting sometimes. Watch this...

https://youtu.be/u0T4oPcK_QI

by bw Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:28 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
bw wrote:
pravalika nanda wrote:
sweety, is that what you thought? i was just busy with work. my eyes are tired. but you know me, i always make time for constructive criticism!

thought i read a post of yours where you had stated that you were planning to abandon this forum and find another one. maybe it was someone else.

oh, am so grateful that you take some time off for posting these nuggets. daddy's little girl posts are also fun.
Janice should be so grateful to have you rooting for her.

haha, (s)he makes the most interesting posts these days. rishi has gone missing. or has he? ;-)

by Guest Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:02 pm

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:If you can't decide if a dance is Kuchipudi or Bharatanatyam, just look at the pleats in the saree in front. If there are two or three levels - it is bharatanatyam and if it is one long level of pleets, it is Kuchipudi.

how many pleats here? scratch

i don't think there is any BN in this one, coz i actually liked this one.

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:18 pm

Beatrix Kiddo wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:If you can't decide if a dance is Kuchipudi or Bharatanatyam, just look at the pleats in the saree in front. If there are two or three levels - it is bharatanatyam and if it is one long level of pleets, it is Kuchipudi.

how many pleats here? i don't think there is any BN in this one, coz i actually liked this one.

The pleat style is Kuchipudi. However, the "saree" is typically Hindian Bollywoody see through.....

by Guest Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:36 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:PN -- if you don't like traditional BN check out savitha sastry's one woman dance theatre. you may enjoy it more.

this dance is *this* close to getting bollywood'ised. What's with the ponytail and the cape in the end? Are people in chennai happy with her taking liberties with traditional BN? I won't be surprised if she accepts a gig to do a bollywood number one of these days.

her producer explained some of the lyrics. the heroine, apparently telling the lord (whoever that is), to come over coz no one's home or something. They appreciate it in the name of 'culture'. When bollywood people sing, 'kundi mat khadkao raja, seedhe andar aao raja', they call it trash. Such double standards, uff. I feel like quitting this sambhar madness sometimes.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:50 pm

beatrice -- a lot of what she is doing doesn't sit well with the chennai establishment. i thought i already mentioned it upthread. in fact she struggles against them. but i can tell you this -- while the establishment folks and the folks who appreciate what she does wouldn't agree about the merits of what she is doing, they'd both be on the same page labeling bollywood harem dance as kitsch.

by Kris Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:36 am

bw wrote:
pravalika nanda wrote:
bw wrote:
pravalika nanda wrote:
sweety, is that what you thought? i was just busy with work. my eyes are tired. but you know me, i always make time for constructive criticism!

thought i read a post of yours where you had stated that you were planning to abandon this forum and find another one. maybe it was someone else.

oh, am so grateful that you take some time off for posting these nuggets. daddy's little girl posts are also fun.

oh, it was me but i said I'd that in two months three weeks ago. so you still have me for five more weeks - just like an orchid in a city apartment. but don't worry, you're on my No Friend Left Behind plan and i think we should find another forum to transplant ourselves to. one with more people and varied topics.you guys just want to talk about bn all day! whyyyy?

no orchids for ms.blandish. did you ever read james hadley chase?

>>>The first Chase book I ever read. Used to love reading them.

by Guest Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:40 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:beatrice -- a lot of what she is doing doesn't sit well with the chennai establishment. i thought i already mentioned it upthread. in fact she struggles against them. but i can tell you this -- while the establishment folks and the folks who appreciate what she does wouldn't agree about the merits of what she is doing, they'd both be on the same page labeling bollywood harem dance as kitsch.

If a big Bollywood producer comes to her and asks her to choreograph dances in some movie, she will refuse? Her more practical sounding producer will agree to that? Hmm. Will see. She first has to get to that level first. I remember watching somewhere she is based in Mumbai these days. So will see.

Whatever she is doing for bn on stage, movies did it for classical and folk dances in an even simpler format 60 years ago. Make them enjoyable and understandable for general public. If she continues with her creativity that's what she will end up being, get so far from bn as you know it that you will wonder if it is really bn or not. At least I will enjoy that dance.

It's funny how you keep repeating harem. Picked up from your guru ff? He imagines a harem just coz he sees people dancing in North Indian movies, so you must too? He enjoys seeing those dances. Do you enjoy them too?

by confuzzled dude Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:40 am

Beatrix Kiddo wrote:
If a big Bollywood producer comes to her and asks her to choreograph dances in some movie, she will refuse? Her more practical sounding producer will agree to that? Hmm. Will see. She first has to get to that level first. I remember watching somewhere she is based in Mumbai these days. So will see.

Whatever she is doing for bn on stage, movies did it for classical and folk dances in an even simpler format 60 years ago. Make them enjoyable and understandable for general public. If she continues with her creativity that's what she will end up being, get so far from bn as you know it that you will wonder if it is really bn or not. At least I will enjoy that dance.

It's funny how you keep repeating harem. Picked up from your guru ff? He imagines a harem just coz he sees people dancing in North Indian movies, so you must too? He enjoys seeing those dances. Do you enjoy them too?

That movie was already made

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:11 am

confuzzled dude wrote:

That movie was already made
[/quote]

Looks like the dance also incorporated some pieceful reshaping of a couple of idols. LOL.

by Seva Lamberdar Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:55 pm

Beatrix Kiddo wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:beatrice -- a lot of what she is doing doesn't sit well with the chennai establishment. i thought i already mentioned it upthread. in fact she struggles against them. but i can tell you this -- while the establishment folks and the folks who appreciate what she does wouldn't agree about the merits of what she is doing, they'd both be on the same page labeling bollywood harem dance as kitsch.

If a big Bollywood producer comes to her and asks her to choreograph dances in some movie, she will refuse? Her more practical sounding producer will agree to that? Hmm. Will see. She first has to get to that level first. I remember watching somewhere she is based in Mumbai these days. So will see.

Whatever she is doing for bn on stage, movies did it for classical and folk dances in an even simpler format 60 years ago. Make them enjoyable and understandable for general public. If she continues with her creativity that's what she will end up being, get so far from bn as you know it that you will wonder if it is really bn or not. At least I will enjoy that dance.

It's funny how you keep repeating harem. Picked up from your guru ff? He imagines a harem just coz he sees people dancing in North Indian movies, so you must too? He enjoys seeing those dances. Do you enjoy them too?

Considering he is not musically trained, it might not be due to his guru (music teacher) that he keeps on talking about the Muslims and music together, but perhaps he has got in-laws who are into music and also are Muslim.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:20 pm

Beatrix Kiddo wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:beatrice -- a lot of what she is doing doesn't sit well with the chennai establishment. i thought i already mentioned it upthread. in fact she struggles against them. but i can tell you this -- while the establishment folks and the folks who appreciate what she does wouldn't agree about the merits of what she is doing, they'd both be on the same page labeling bollywood harem dance as kitsch.

If a big Bollywood producer comes to her and asks her to choreograph dances in some movie, she will refuse? Her more practical sounding producer will agree to that? Hmm. Will see. She first has to get to that level first. I remember watching somewhere she is based in Mumbai these days. So will see.

Whatever she is doing for bn on stage, movies did it for classical and folk dances in an even simpler format 60 years ago. Make them enjoyable and understandable for general public. If she continues with her creativity that's what she will end up being, get so far from bn as you know it that you will wonder if it is really bn or not. At least I will enjoy that dance.

It's funny how you keep repeating harem. Picked up from your guru ff? He imagines a harem just coz he sees people dancing in North Indian movies, so you must too? He enjoys seeing those dances. Do you enjoy them too?

i don't know what ms.shastry will or won't do in the future beatrice. i like what she is doing now. there are many sides to an artiste. it's possible as you say, that she may decide to work in a kitschy medium that pays the bills and affords her the time and space to pursue serious art; but that doesn't concern me.

as for taking cues from FF, not really. many southern indians hold opinions similar to mine about bollywood. my now late granduncle used to call bollywood dancing women, nautch girls. i just call them mughal harem dancers. they may take cues from classical indian dance forms like kathak, odissi, even BN from time to time, but their core i believe is inherited from the women in the mughal emperor's harem.

by seven Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:49 pm

Only shallow art lovers do Looking down upon another form of art.
Bollywood dancing is what it is. Calling it harem dancing kinda says you're insecure about classical dance's capability to entertain n win hearts.

by FluteHolder Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:23 pm

Can these be called as an expression of art/dance? .....

by confuzzled dude Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:07 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
i don't know what ms.shastry will or won't do in the future beatrice. i like what she is doing now. there are many sides to an artiste. it's possible as you say, that she may decide to work in a kitschy medium that pays the bills and affords her the time and space to pursue serious art; but that doesn't concern me.

as for taking cues from FF, not really. many southern indians hold opinions similar to mine about bollywood. my now late granduncle used to call bollywood dancing women, nautch girls. i just call them mughal harem dancers. they may take cues from classical indian dance forms like kathak, odissi, even BN from time to time, but their core i believe is inherited from the women in the mughal emperor's harem.

That's because Muslims were/are integral part of Bollywood and their influence bound to rub off. Having said that there are many movies that are not influenced by Moghul cluture. For example, V. Shantaram, Hrishikesh Mukherjee, Basu Chatterjee, Rajshri productions etc. made some great movies without an iota of influence.

by Kris Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:11 am

FluteHolder wrote:Can these be called as an expression of art/dance? .....

>>>Sure, if this is what floats your boat. Who is the girl in the last video?

by FluteHolder Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:49 am

Kris wrote:

>>>Sure, if this is what floats your boat. Who is the girl in the last video?

That was my point too. But you cannot compare apple to an orange (BN to Bollywood).

Will Music Academy bring/allow a 'Dabbankutthu/ghana Pattu' troupe to perform for a 'classic art festival'?

The actress is Nayanthara!

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:55 am

confuzzled dude wrote:
That's because Muslims were/are integral part of Bollywood and their influence bound to rub off. Having said that there are many movies that are not influenced by Moghul cluture. For example, V. Shantaram, Hrishikesh Mukherjee, Basu Chatterjee, Rajshri productions etc. made some great movies without an iota of influence.

There is nothing fundamentally different between the "Moghul" and the "Indigenous" dance. If the dance is performed for some Sikular drunk perverts, it becomes Moghul (and bollywoody) and if performed for a "God" on a platform in a temple, it becomes "indigenous".

Persian and Indian cultures interacted with each other much more before the pieceful marginalized/pushed-out pagan culture of Iran. Persians did have Greek influence in their dance (Greek dance is quite boring, I must say). That aspect of Persian dance did come to India but its impact, predictably, was not much as the indigenous dance form was vibrant and expressive.

BN acquired respectability mainly because it was patronized by Nayakas and the locals took the art-form to heart and worked hard to preserve and improve on it. The Devadasi tradition died off along with the importance of the temples themselves just as DKheads became prominent in TN. However, the dance form has improved a lot and has become a source of pride for the average TNwallah.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:07 am

FluteHolder wrote:

Will Music Academy bring/allow a 'Dabbankutthu/ghana Pattu' troupe to perform for a 'classic art festival'?

http://www.thehindu.com/features/friday-review/theatre/from-the-village-of-koothu/article6962630.ece

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:14 am

Traditional Greek dance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcmaMUiYqh4

Persian dance:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hoqg9npG8no

by Kris Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:14 am

FluteHolder wrote:
Kris wrote:

>>>Sure, if this is what floats your boat. Who is the girl in the last video?
That was my point too. But you cannot compare apple to an orange (BN to Bollywood).

Will Music Academy bring/allow a 'Dabbankutthu/ghana Pattu' troupe to perform for a 'classic art festival'?

The actress is Nayanthara!

>>>Art appreciation is a funny thing. It is highly related to personal cultural conditioning and exposure. BN and Bollywood may both have good and bad within their respective realms, but comparing the two genres is an apples/oranges thing. It all evens out. The earthy and energetic Ms. N's fans are probably not too worried as the Music Academy's take on their beloved art form. Now, the guy in the red pants has got to go. He is simply casting a huge shadow on Ms.N (my new best friend:)'s outpouring of talent Smile

by pravalika nanda Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:30 am

seven wrote:Only shallow art lovers do Looking down upon another form of art.
Bollywood dancing is what it is. Calling it harem dancing kinda says you're insecure about classical dance's capability to entertain n win hearts.

there is way more training, dancing and work expended in a bolly-dance than there is in bn. what seculars are trying to tell you is that bn is about class and culture and heritage and the only reason they say it is cuz attractive, seductive (for bollywood, they refer to it as slutty or nautch), educated, well-off women from secure communities perform it nowadays.

it's sort of like when upper-class, upper-caste, white-skinned, well-educated, well-connected vidya balan won a national award for acting in "the dirty picture" in a trashy role but prior to her several dozen non-upper class, non-upper caste, non-slutty women have done the same trashy roles but were either castigated or just called screen sirens. when vidya does it, it is called national award-level acting and when silk was doing the national award-level acting, it was cuz she was trash.

that is indian culture: don't fight bigotry, adjust your thinking.

by FluteHolder Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:36 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
FluteHolder wrote:

Will Music Academy bring/allow a 'Dabbankutthu/ghana Pattu' troupe to perform for a 'classic art festival'?

http://www.thehindu.com/features/friday-review/theatre/from-the-village-of-koothu/article6962630.ece

They might have allowed for giving them a chance. But I bet it would not have have got the 'elite' crowd of Mylapore or TNagar. How many would enjoy 'naakamuka' song/dance?. My point is art is relative to the exposure./interest of the audience.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:06 am

pravalika nanda wrote:
seven wrote:Only shallow art lovers do Looking down upon another form of art.
Bollywood dancing is what it is. Calling it harem dancing kinda says you're insecure about classical dance's capability to entertain n win hearts.

there is way more training, dancing and work expended in a bolly-dance than there is in bn. what seculars are trying to tell you is that bn is about class and culture and heritage and the only reason they say it is cuz attractive, seductive (for bollywood, they refer to it as slutty or nautch), educated, well-off women from secure communities perform it nowadays.

it's sort of like when upper-class, upper-caste, white-skinned, well-educated, well-connected vidya balan won a national award for acting in "the dirty picture" in a trashy role but prior to her several dozen non-upper class, non-upper caste, non-slutty women have done the same trashy roles but were either castigated or just called screen sirens. when vidya does it, it is called national award-level acting and when silk was doing the national award-level acting, it was cuz she was trash.

that is indian culture: don't fight bigotry, adjust your thinking.

since you are referring to my post in a roundabout way, i don't think i've ever said anything about vidya balan's role in the dirty picture. i haven't even watched it let alone have an opinion about it. here is an "upper caste" woman doing something ridiculously incongruous and garish:

what's with the shiny lights?

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:09 am

the apples to oranges retort to my post is totally inappropriate. in fact i was the one who objected to the comparison of BN and bollytrash in the first place! i wonder where these people disappeared when beatrice was first juxtaposing the two. cat got their collective tongues?

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:28 am

more LOL!

what the heck is that woman who is brandishing the sword thingie think she is doing? and around the 1:59 mark i think she got lower back cramps or something.

by Seva Lamberdar Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:11 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Beatrix Kiddo wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:beatrice -- a lot of what she is doing doesn't sit well with the chennai establishment. i thought i already mentioned it upthread. in fact she struggles against them. but i can tell you this -- while the establishment folks and the folks who appreciate what she does wouldn't agree about the merits of what she is doing, they'd both be on the same page labeling bollywood harem dance as kitsch.

If a big Bollywood producer comes to her and asks her to choreograph dances in some movie, she will refuse? Her more practical sounding producer will agree to that? Hmm. Will see. She first has to get to that level first. I remember watching somewhere she is based in Mumbai these days. So will see.

Whatever she is doing for bn on stage, movies did it for classical and folk dances in an even simpler format 60 years ago. Make them enjoyable and understandable for general public. If she continues with her creativity that's what she will end up being, get so far from bn as you know it that you will wonder if it is really bn or not. At least I will enjoy that dance.

It's funny how you keep repeating harem. Picked up from your guru ff? He imagines a harem just coz he sees people dancing in North Indian movies, so you must too? He enjoys seeing those dances. Do you enjoy them too?

Considering he is not musically trained, it might not be due to his guru (music teacher) that he keeps on talking about the Muslims and music together, but perhaps he has got in-laws who are into music and also are Muslim.

Incidentally, the singing and dancing tradition in Hinduism is the oldest and originated probably before that in other cultures. There is a mention of Gandharvas and Apsaras (the celestial singers and dancers, respectively) in the ancient Hindu religious texts, which directly might have led to the rise of singing and dancing in the courts and palaces of ancient Hindu kings in the beginning. Then the tradition of singing and dancing (including the singing and dancing courtesans) very likely flowed to other places and cultures (including the Muslim rulers etc.), starting originally in India and with the Hindus.

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:39 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Beatrix Kiddo wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:beatrice -- a lot of what she is doing doesn't sit well with the chennai establishment. i thought i already mentioned it upthread. in fact she struggles against them. but i can tell you this -- while the establishment folks and the folks who appreciate what she does wouldn't agree about the merits of what she is doing, they'd both be on the same page labeling bollywood harem dance as kitsch.

If a big Bollywood producer comes to her and asks her to choreograph dances in some movie, she will refuse? Her more practical sounding producer will agree to that? Hmm. Will see. She first has to get to that level first. I remember watching somewhere she is based in Mumbai these days. So will see.

Whatever she is doing for bn on stage, movies did it for classical and folk dances in an even simpler format 60 years ago. Make them enjoyable and understandable for general public. If she continues with her creativity that's what she will end up being, get so far from bn as you know it that you will wonder if it is really bn or not. At least I will enjoy that dance.

It's funny how you keep repeating harem. Picked up from your guru ff? He imagines a harem just coz he sees people dancing in North Indian movies, so you must too? He enjoys seeing those dances. Do you enjoy them too?

Considering he is not musically trained, it might not be due to his guru (music teacher) that he keeps on talking about the Muslims and music together, but perhaps he has got in-laws who are into music and also are Muslim.
Incidentally, the singing and dancing tradition in Hinduism is the oldest and originated probably before that in other cultures. There is a mention of Gandharvas and Apsaras (the celestial singers and dancers, respectively) in the ancient Hindu religious texts, which directly might have led to the rise of singing and dancing in the courts and palaces of ancient Hindu kings in the beginning. Then the tradition of singing and dancing (including the singing and dancing courtesans) very likely flowed to other places and cultures (including the Muslim rulers etc.), starting originally in India and with the Hindus.

Gandharvas and Apsaras are not necessarily from BIMARU India.

It is possible that the hauling and moaning aspects of Hindustani singing is original to the BIMARU region (just like the Koran type recital of mantras by NI priests). LOL.

by pravalika nanda Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:33 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:PN -- if you don't like traditional BN check out savitha sastry's one woman dance theatre. you may enjoy it more.

well, i did finally get around to watching savitha sastry perform "yudh" and i liked it for the following reasons:

- the content was different
- she is technically gifted
- the music was very good
- the team was creative and made an effort to engage, surprise and thrill the audience. it is very rare for any bn team to actually think about the audience. for the most part due to their snobbery and pedigree the self-absorbed nature of the dancer, there is a tendency to repeat the same pieces no matter how dull and irrelevant and still they expect that we will come and admire them for their make-up and "beauty" and prettiness while they dance.
- sastry is smart to think of her audience. and if you watch what she and her husband say after the dance piece is done, she says that BN has to be limitless, that it cannot have a box around it. well, that's where kuchipudi came in and that is why it has always been more enjoyable and elevant: it has all the technical, musical, and easthetic appeal of bn while at the same time exploring countless current and relevant topics.
- i suspect bn did not come with a box in its primitive form. i'm guessing that thoughtful, well-bred tamils with pedigree cleaned it up and cultured it up and made it fit to their measurements. I'm glad sastry is breaking free of the shackles and i trust she will do so without converting bn into kuchipudi.
- also please make an effort to stick to the southern way of spelling her name, ty. and thank you for this link.

by pravalika nanda Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:41 pm

i was surprised by her partner srikant stating that he was shocked to hear statements such as " my husband is away, my in-laws are asleep, come to me now, my lord." and then he asks if we want our kids to dance to this. i think if you are an artist you should be free and brave to explore everything including the erotic which has always been central to not just indian art but also to music and poetry and especially to Hinduism.

by Impedimenta Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:12 am

PN, i feel compelled to say something to you.

a) There are several like Ms Sastry who do not "box themselves" to the traditional confines of BN. You are not exposed to such shows nor are you open minded enough to accept that BN has gone through a huge evolutionary cycle over the years, much more than CM has. This is NOT and will NEVER be WIDESPREAD for several reasons, the top one being the dancer's own apprehensions of being "accepted".
b) you interjecting some ridiculous posts on what "constitutes" a perfect BN performance and going back and forth with people who resort to circular freaking logic and baseless, cheap retorts is clearly not going to help you or anyone else understand anything about any form of dance. Art appreciation is NOT for everyone. You either have it or you don't Similarly, dancers have their own comfort zones, preferences and histories that have built their foundation. Some are traditional in their preferences and do not care a damn about what the audience wants or thinks or even go to the extent to sounding snobbish and perform FOR a target audience. What is your problem with that? you have a choice. do not watch them. if your interest in BN is agenda driven and not purely coming out of art appreciation, then pick your choices. simple.

c) There are GOOD dancers, amazing dancers and BAD dancers. Why is that so freaking hard for you to comprehend? again, the choice is yours. BN does not render itself to a particular dancer, the performer takes BN and makes it his/her own. get that into your head.

d) The orchestra and the rest of the jingbang that supports a BN recital can also come in several flavors - GOOD, bad and ugly. Again, no fault of BN.

Now, if you have the patience, check out a few youtube videos of Bhavajan Kumar.

you talk about all the shackles one has to break to get through to the audience. while i agree with that, i say it is time for the audience, especially the ones with an "agenda" to break away from their prejudices and accept that every dancer is different, they can be good, bad, ugly and different. also, the dancer can prefer to showcase absolutely traditional items (incomprehensible to SOME audience) and be perfectly comfortable with it.

Lastly, preferring a genre of dance over another(whatever it may be) is such a personal preference. It is as personal ( to me) as the partner i prefer to be with and to me, it would mean ZERO if someone else felt different about the choice.

by Seva Lamberdar Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:36 am

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Beatrix Kiddo wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:beatrice -- a lot of what she is doing doesn't sit well with the chennai establishment. i thought i already mentioned it upthread. in fact she struggles against them. but i can tell you this -- while the establishment folks and the folks who appreciate what she does wouldn't agree about the merits of what she is doing, they'd both be on the same page labeling bollywood harem dance as kitsch.

If a big Bollywood producer comes to her and asks her to choreograph dances in some movie, she will refuse? Her more practical sounding producer will agree to that? Hmm. Will see. She first has to get to that level first. I remember watching somewhere she is based in Mumbai these days. So will see.

Whatever she is doing for bn on stage, movies did it for classical and folk dances in an even simpler format 60 years ago. Make them enjoyable and understandable for general public. If she continues with her creativity that's what she will end up being, get so far from bn as you know it that you will wonder if it is really bn or not. At least I will enjoy that dance.

It's funny how you keep repeating harem. Picked up from your guru ff? He imagines a harem just coz he sees people dancing in North Indian movies, so you must too? He enjoys seeing those dances. Do you enjoy them too?

Considering he is not musically trained, it might not be due to his guru (music teacher) that he keeps on talking about the Muslims and music together, but perhaps he has got in-laws who are into music and also are Muslim.
Incidentally, the singing and dancing tradition in Hinduism is the oldest and originated probably before that in other cultures. There is a mention of Gandharvas and Apsaras (the celestial singers and dancers, respectively) in the ancient Hindu religious texts, which directly might have led to the rise of singing and dancing in the courts and palaces of ancient Hindu kings in the beginning. Then the tradition of singing and dancing (including the singing and dancing courtesans) very likely flowed to other places and cultures (including the Muslim rulers etc.), starting originally in India and with the Hindus.
Gandharvas and Apsaras are not necessarily from BIMARU India.

It is possible that the hauling and moaning aspects of Hindustani singing is original to the BIMARU region (just like the Koran type recital of mantras by NI priests). LOL.

Most of the professionally engaged entertainers (musicians and dancers) in north India originally belonged to the Hindu faith and they changed their religion only in the last few centuries when it became financially more attractive for them to entertain the new (Mughal) kings and nawabs and also be a part of their culture and faith. Even the so called Sufi music seems to have a considerable influence on it from the original Hindu singing and thought ... just analyze its spiritual content to notice the similarities with Hinduism.

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:16 am

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Gandharvas and Apsaras are not necessarily from BIMARU India.

It is possible that the hauling and moaning aspects of Hindustani singing is original to the BIMARU region (just like the Koran type recital of mantras by NI priests). LOL.
Most of the professionally engaged entertainers (musicians and dancers) in north India originally belonged to the Hindu faith and they changed their religion only in the last few centuries when it became financially more attractive for them to entertain the new (Mughal) kings and nawabs and also be a part of their culture and faith. Even the so called Sufi music seems to have a considerable influence on it from the original Hindu singing and thought ... just analyze its spiritual content to notice the similarities with Hinduism.

I posted similar views on the Sufi tradition on "IndoLink" some 10 years ago. Some pieceful guys posting on the board got upset.....

Historians neglected the cultural link between Iran and India. Hopefully, someone will bring this out.

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