Tamil - An Entire Civilization, Not Just a Language

Seva Lamberdar wrote:Of course. 
While other languages modernized and developed over time in India, even in the neighborhood of Tamil including the languages Malyalam, Kannada and Telugu which even adopted newer and improved alphabets (with more letters / sounds) and which are now called by Tamil speakers as the newer languages and not as old / ancient as their language Tamil, Tamil speakers kept their own language Tamil stagnant, worthy of current classical and ancient status, by not modifying and bringing changes into it over time, including its alphabet which is quite short in the number of letters and sounds.

Kayalvizhi wrote:

Seva Lamberdar wrote:Of course. 
While other languages modernized and developed over time in India, even in the neighborhood of Tamil including the languages Malyalam, Kannada and Telugu which even adopted newer and improved alphabets (with more letters / sounds) and which are now called by Tamil speakers as the newer languages and not as old / ancient as their language Tamil, Tamil speakers kept their own language Tamil stagnant, worthy of current classical and ancient status, by not modifying and bringing changes into it over time, including its alphabet which is quite short in the number of letters and sounds.

There is no need to add to alphabet or borrow foreign words.

If you have healthy teeth, why do you want implants?

If you have good looking hair, why wear false hair?

How Tamil stays modern without borrowing is explained in the following article. If you have an open mind and know alternate pount of view, read

Tamil - Early River Valley Civilization to Modern Technological Age
http://www.tamiltribune.com/10/0701.html

FluteHolder wrote:All other languages in India, including in the neighborhood of Tamil (e.g. Malyalam, Telugu and Kannada) and almost as ancient and original as Tamil, took step over time to correct and overcome the deficiencies in them thus becoming modern languages with better and up-to-date alphabets, whereas Tamil (its speakers) did no such thing which led to that language (Tamil) still stuck in its ancient form (alphabet and grammar etc.) and thus mired with many difficulties.
>>>>
Sevaji, Can you explain your statement with a little more details or examples?

Seva Lamberdar wrote:

FluteHolder wrote:

Sevaji, Can you explain your statement with a little more details or examples?

FHji, consider for example the letter "k" which currently in Tamil, due to the shortage of enough letters / consonants in Tamil alphabet, represents many other sounds / letters such as "k", "g", "h" etc. Naturally, it will lead to problems and confusion in vocabulary and pronunciation whenever new words (especially the nouns and names etc.) from other languages are written in Tamil, and vice versa. Here, in the following, is the Table showing Tamil consonants representing various letters / sounds in other languages.  

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:I wonder if Devnagiri has suitable alphabets for the click sound in certain African languages:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31zzMb3U0iY

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:I wonder if Devnagiri has suitable alphabets for the click sound in certain African languages:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31zzMb3U0iY

garam_kuta wrote:

Seva Lamberdar wrote:

FluteHolder wrote:

Sevaji, Can you explain your statement with a little more details or examples?

FHji, consider for example the letter "k" which currently in Tamil, due to the shortage of enough letters / consonants in Tamil alphabet, represents many other sounds / letters such as "k", "g", "h" etc. Naturally, it will lead to problems and confusion in vocabulary and pronunciation whenever new words (especially the nouns and names etc.) from other languages are written in Tamil, and vice versa. Here, in the following, is the Table showing Tamil consonants representing various letters / sounds in other languages.  

not necessarily. there is a rule which self-corrects this arbitrariness, i should think. it is to do with the immediate, next alphabet and such, so that any other random possibility of pronunciation is negated.  I 'll try to get a link to an article on this....

Seva Lamberdar wrote:

garam_kuta wrote:

Seva Lamberdar wrote:

FluteHolder wrote:

Sevaji, Can you explain your statement with a little more details or examples?

FHji, consider for example the letter "k" which currently in Tamil, due to the shortage of enough letters / consonants in Tamil alphabet, represents many other sounds / letters such as "k", "g", "h" etc. Naturally, it will lead to problems and confusion in vocabulary and pronunciation whenever new words (especially the nouns and names etc.) from other languages are written in Tamil, and vice versa. Here, in the following, is the Table showing Tamil consonants representing various letters / sounds in other languages.  

not necessarily. there is a rule which self-corrects this arbitrariness, i should think. it is to do with the immediate, next alphabet and such, so that any other random possibility of pronunciation is negated.  I 'll try to get a link to an article on this....

G_K, yes there is a rule on this, but that only makes things more cumbersome in Tamil, including loading superficially the basic "k" etc. in Tamil to represent / express more "foreign" sounds / letters (such as from Tamil's neighboring languages, e.g. Telugu and Malyalam etc.). Besides, most people (even Tamil speakers) either are unaware of the rule or have forgotten about it when they need it, just like yourself. In addition, the rule is easily subject to breakdown and confusion in the case of names / nouns exchanged between Tamil and other languages, especially when others (non-Tamils) engaged in the transliteration of Tamil writing have no clue about the special considerations in the rule.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:I wonder if Devnagiri has suitable alphabets for the click sound in certain African languages:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31zzMb3U0iY

smArtha wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:I wonder if Devnagiri has suitable alphabets for the click sound in certain African languages:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31zzMb3U0iY

Samskritham or for that matter no language in the world has all the phonetic sounds that a human is capable of producing. However, the reason for Samskritham excluding some phonetic sound is because every alphabet and its phonetic in samskritam is arrived at identifying which areas/nerve centers in the body need to be vibrated and its positive impact on the overall human system. Those that have negative or neutral impact had been deliberately not paired with an alphabet. That is the reason for not all phonemes making it to the language. No other language was engineered thus. Every other language just evolved with the sounds and symbols that folks of a region found comfort and made it a convention to communicate. With Samskritham that is not the case.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:When loan words are borrowed from other languages, the sounds never transcribe perfectly even from neighboring languages. This is the case for example with French loan words in English which are innumerable. Japanese has many loan words from English and they seamlessly absorb them. Beer in English is Biru, whiskey is U~siuki and so on. There is no prayer of loan words surviving their original phonology when they cross linguistic boundaries.

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
G_K, yes there is a rule on this, but that only makes things more cumbersome in Tamil, including loading superficially the basic "k" etc. in Tamil to represent / express more "foreign" sounds / letters (such as from Tamil's neighboring languages, e.g. Telugu and Malyalam etc.). Besides, most people (even Tamil speakers) either are unaware of the rule or have forgotten about it when they need it, just like yourself. In addition, the rule is easily subject to breakdown and confusion in the case of names / nouns exchanged between Tamil and other languages, especially when others (non-Tamils) engaged in the transliteration of Tamil writing have no clue about the special considerations in the rule.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:The current script used in Tamil is not ancient, it is quite modern. It has undergone revision as recently as less than hundred years ago. What is ancient is the phonology. Any language should have an adequate script that can deal with its own phonology. There is no requirement that the script should be expanded to accommodate alien phonology. Loan words will be accommodated and absorbed consistent with the borrowing language's phonology. This is how it always has been and always will be.

SomeProfile wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:The current script used in Tamil is not ancient, it is quite modern. It has undergone revision as recently as less than hundred years ago. What is ancient is the phonology. Any language should have an adequate script that can deal with its own phonology. There is no requirement that the script should be expanded to accommodate alien phonology. Loan words will be accommodated and absorbed consistent with the borrowing language's phonology. This is how it always has been and always will be.

Except that Tamizh has not been adequate to even correctly write the names of a LOT of Tamizhars themselves! I bet most native Tamizhars on this forum cannot write their own names unambiguously in Tamizh. Unambiguously means - there is no confusion in pronuciation, each sound / syllable of their names has a distinct alphabet in Tamizh.

Example: the title of the Tamizh movie starring Rajnikanth and directed by Maniratnam. The way it is written in Tamizh, it could be pronounced in any one of the following ways:

DaLapadi
DaLapati
TaLapadi
TaLapati

WTF!

Poor Rajnikanth might be called RajnigAnt, RajnikAnd, RajnigAnd, RajnikAnt, the way it is written in Tamizh. Ridiculous!

There is no accommodation or consistency here. I have seen Tamizhars themselves pronounce these names in multiple different ways. Of course, I am under no delusion that any Tamizhars will accept this inadequacy in their language. When it comes to language, Tamizhars turn off all capacity for logic and reason.

SomeProfile wrote:
Example: the title of the Tamizh movie starring Rajnikanth and directed by Maniratnam. The way it is written in Tamizh, it could be pronounced in any one of the following ways:

DaLapadi
DaLapati
TaLapadi
TaLapati

Kayalvizhi wrote:

SomeProfile wrote:
Example: the title of the Tamizh movie starring Rajnikanth and directed by Maniratnam. The way it is written in Tamizh, it could be pronounced in any one of the following ways:

DaLapadi
DaLapati
TaLapadi
TaLapati

Type thaLapathi. It will produce தளபதி. There is no confusion if you know the rules. The problem is not with the language. It is with your lack of knowledge.

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:

Kayalvizhi wrote:

SomeProfile wrote:
Example: the title of the Tamizh movie starring Rajnikanth and directed by Maniratnam. The way it is written in Tamizh, it could be pronounced in any one of the following ways:

DaLapadi
DaLapati
TaLapadi
TaLapati

Type thaLapathi. It will produce தளபதி. There is no confusion if you know the rules. The problem is not with the language. It is with your lack of knowledge.

Hey Kayer,
Which temble do you go to?

SomeProfile wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:The current script used in Tamil is not ancient, it is quite modern. It has undergone revision as recently as less than hundred years ago. What is ancient is the phonology. Any language should have an adequate script that can deal with its own phonology. There is no requirement that the script should be expanded to accommodate alien phonology. Loan words will be accommodated and absorbed consistent with the borrowing language's phonology. This is how it always has been and always will be.

Except that Tamizh has not been adequate to even correctly write the names of a LOT of Tamizhars themselves! I bet most native Tamizhars on this forum cannot write their own names unambiguously in Tamizh. Unambiguously means - there is no confusion in pronuciation, each sound / syllable of their names has a distinct alphabet in Tamizh.

Example: the title of the Tamizh movie starring Rajnikanth and directed by Maniratnam. The way it is written in Tamizh, it could be pronounced in any one of the following ways:

DaLapadi
DaLapati
TaLapadi
TaLapati

WTF!

Poor Rajnikanth might be called RajnigAnt, RajnikAnd, RajnigAnd, RajnikAnt, the way it is written in Tamizh. Ridiculous!

There is no accommodation or consistency here. I have seen Tamizhars themselves pronounce these names in multiple different ways. Of course, I am under no delusion that any Tamizhars will accept this inadequacy in their language. When it comes to language, Tamizhars turn off all capacity for logic and reason.

Seva Lamberdar wrote:

SomeProfile wrote:
Except that Tamizh has not been adequate to even correctly write the names of a LOT of Tamizhars themselves! I bet most native Tamizhars on this forum cannot write their own names unambiguously in Tamizh. Unambiguously means - there is no confusion in pronuciation, each sound / syllable of their names has a distinct alphabet in Tamizh.

Example: the title of the Tamizh movie starring Rajnikanth and directed by Maniratnam. The way it is written in Tamizh, it could be pronounced in any one of the following ways:

DaLapadi
DaLapati
TaLapadi
TaLapati

WTF!

Poor Rajnikanth might be called RajnigAnt, RajnikAnd, RajnigAnd, RajnikAnt, the way it is written in Tamizh. Ridiculous!

There is no accommodation or consistency here. I have seen Tamizhars themselves pronounce these names in multiple different ways. Of course, I am under no delusion that any Tamizhars will accept this inadequacy in their language. When it comes to language, Tamizhars turn off all capacity for logic and reason.

SomeProfile, what you say, including your examples about the name of the movie as well as Rajnikanth's name in Tamil, is absolutely correct. Moreover, using the grammatical rule in Tamil to compensate for the lack of sufficient letters (consonants) in Tamil alphabet to achieve proper pronunciation and writing is like touching the nose with difficulty and awkwardly by wrapping the arm around the back of the neck (as in the case of grammatical rules, which may or may not work), instead of doing it easily and directly by just putting the hand on the nose (as in case of sufficient number of letters in the alphabet, which will always work). 

More examples of misleading and improper representation / translation (from English to Tamil to English), in spite of rules, 


Kul , Gul (in English) -->  குல் , குல்  (in Tamil) --> Gul , Gul (in English)
 
Dim , Tim (in English) --> டிம் , டிம்  (in Tamil) --> Tim , Tim (in English)
 
Pop , Bob (in English) --> பாப் , பாப் (in Tamil) --> Bob , Bob (in English)

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:

Kayalvizhi wrote:

SomeProfile wrote:
Example: the title of the Tamizh movie starring Rajnikanth and directed by Maniratnam. The way it is written in Tamizh, it could be pronounced in any one of the following ways:

DaLapadi
DaLapati
TaLapadi
TaLapati

Type thaLapathi. It will produce தளபதி. There is no confusion if you know the rules. The problem is not with the language. It is with your lack of knowledge.

Hey Kayer,
Which temble do you go to?

Wrong ethnic group for that particular pronunciation stereotype. You are off by one contiguous state.

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:

Kayalvizhi wrote:

SomeProfile wrote:
Example: the title of the Tamizh movie starring Rajnikanth and directed by Maniratnam. The way it is written in Tamizh, it could be pronounced in any one of the following ways:

DaLapadi
DaLapati
TaLapadi
TaLapati

Type thaLapathi. It will produce தளபதி. There is no confusion if you know the rules. The problem is not with the language. It is with your lack of knowledge.

Hey Kayer,
Which temble do you go to?

Wrong ethnic group for that particular pronunciation stereotype. You are off by one contiguous state.

I bet Palghat Iyers went to tembles in TN as well.

SomeProfile wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:The current script used in Tamil is not ancient, it is quite modern. It has undergone revision as recently as less than hundred years ago. What is ancient is the phonology. Any language should have an adequate script that can deal with its own phonology. There is no requirement that the script should be expanded to accommodate alien phonology. Loan words will be accommodated and absorbed consistent with the borrowing language's phonology. This is how it always has been and always will be.

Except that Tamizh has not been adequate to even correctly write the names of a LOT of Tamizhars themselves! I bet most native Tamizhars on this forum cannot write their own names unambiguously in Tamizh. Unambiguously means - there is no confusion in pronuciation, each sound / syllable of their names has a distinct alphabet in Tamizh.

Example: the title of the Tamizh movie starring Rajnikanth and directed by Maniratnam. The way it is written in Tamizh, it could be pronounced in any one of the following ways:

DaLapadi
DaLapati
TaLapadi
TaLapati

WTF!

Poor Rajnikanth might be called RajnigAnt, RajnikAnd, RajnigAnd, RajnikAnt, the way it is written in Tamizh. Ridiculous!

There is no accommodation or consistency here. I have seen Tamizhars themselves pronounce these names in multiple different ways. Of course, I am under no delusion that any Tamizhars will accept this inadequacy in their language. When it comes to language, Tamizhars turn off all capacity for logic and reason.

garam_kuta wrote:

PS: I don't miss rashmun, or his massah, who is yet to appear in milk cartons.

garam_kuta wrote:I meant to say this right off the bat -
-that the biggest irony is: we've been discussing all this in probably one of the most familiarity-dependent languages; albeit its largest vocab, borrowed or not, it's one of the most arbitrary types, so empirical, that without knowing the words a priori, it's a nightmare for a non-native speaker.

PS: I don't miss rashmun, or his massah, who is yet to appear in milk cartons.

Seva Lamberdar wrote:

garam_kuta wrote:I meant to say this right off the bat -
-that the biggest irony is: we've been discussing all this in probably one of the most familiarity-dependent languages; albeit its largest vocab, borrowed or not, it's one of the most arbitrary types, so empirical, that without knowing the words a priori, it's a nightmare for a non-native speaker.

PS: I don't miss rashmun, or his massah, who is yet to appear in milk cartons.

The solution is quite easy and simple which will benefit both the native and non-native speakers / users of Tamil. Instead of relying on the superficial grammatical rules which are hard to keep track of and likely to breakdown anytime when a new / unfamiliar word appears / encountered and which needlessly make the language (Tamil) more difficult to learn, use and develop, simply expand the current / ancient alphabet in Tamil by adding more letters / consonants, like the speakers of Malayalam, Kannada and Telugu did long time ago.

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
btw, just curious! 
Do Tamil dictionaries also give info. on words' origins (e.g. from Sanskrit, as in the case of Tamil word 'thaLapathi', meaning 'commander', and rooted probably in Sanskrit -- as 'thala-pati' in Sanskrit meaning 'territorial leader'), so that it is helpful in reading, writing and pronouncing the word properly in Tamil?

Kayalvizhi wrote:

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
btw, just curious! 
Do Tamil dictionaries also give info. on words' origins (e.g. from Sanskrit, as in the case of Tamil word 'thaLapathi', meaning 'commander', and rooted probably in Sanskrit -- as 'thala-pati' in Sanskrit meaning 'territorial leader'), so that it is helpful in reading, writing and pronouncing the word properly in Tamil?

Yes. There is a multi volume dictionary published by TN gov. I do not remember the name. It was originally edited by the legendary Tamil linguist Devaneyan (aka Paavaanar). Work started when MGR was the CM.

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Thanks. But it does not seem to work in real life as indicated from the example of 'ThaLapathi', spelled and pronounced by people wrongly as DaLapadi, DaLapati, TaLapadi or TaLapati (as mentioned earlier by SomeProfile), in spite of Sanskrit origin (thala-pati) for Tamil 'thaLapathi'. 

confuzzled dude wrote:

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Thanks. But it does not seem to work in real life as indicated from the example of 'ThaLapathi', spelled and pronounced by people wrongly as DaLapadi, DaLapati, TaLapadi or TaLapati (as mentioned earlier by SomeProfile), in spite of Sanskrit origin (thala-pati) for Tamil 'thaLapathi'. 

Could this [confusion] be due to your lack of familiarity/understanding of proto-dravidian languages?

http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/brown_query.py?qs=dalamu