utthar pradeshi khariboli an offshoot of mandarin?

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:58 am

when i was in graduate school, i once heard a chinese postdoc in my lab humming AwArA hun, but he sang it as AwAlA goo. this leads me to the thesis that khariboli is an offshoot of mandarin chinese. discuss.

by garam_kuta Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:58 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:when i was in graduate school, i once heard a chinese postdoc in my lab humming AwArA hun, but he sang it as AwAlA goo. this leads me to the thesis that khariboli is an offshoot of mandarin chinese. discuss.

aiyyO- engayO pOiteenga saar neenga ! cavalli-sforza level-ukku !

by charvaka Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:06 am

It is possible that Khariboli arose out of a synthesis between Mandarin and the ungrammatical apabhramsas that were prevalent in northindia. It is a well-known fact that travelers from China like Xuanzang and Faxian visited India and traveled extensively in the region between Takshashila and Pataliputra. Crucially, they wrote about their travels in Chinese. This means that Chinese was understood by the common man in northindia.

Here are some random copy-pastes to prove my point. Let me know if you find anything in here that contradicts my views. I am hoping you won't.

Xuanzang (Chinese: 玄奘; pinyin: Xuánzàng; Wade–Giles: Hsüan-tsang Sanskrit: ह्वेनसांग) (c. 602 – 664) was a famous Chinese Buddhist monk, scholar, traveler, and translator who described the interaction between China and India in the early Tang period. Born in Henan province of China in 602 or 603, from boyhood he took to reading sacred books, including the Chinese Classics and the writings of the ancient sages.

While residing in the city of Luoyang, Xuanzang entered Buddhist monkhood at the age of thirteen. Due to the political and social unrest caused by the fall of the Sui dynasty, he went to Chengdu in Sichuan
(Szechuan), where he was ordained at the age of twenty. He later
traveled throughout China in search of sacred books of Buddhism. At
length, he came to Chang'an, then under the peaceful rule of Emperor Taizong of Tang. Here Xuanzang developed the desire to visit India. He knew about Faxian's visit to India and, like him, was concerned about the incomplete and misinterpreted nature of the Buddhist scriptures that had reached China.

He became famous for his seventeen year overland journey to India, which is recorded in detail in the classic Chinese text Great Tang Records on the Western Regions, which in turn provided the inspiration for the popular epic novel Journey to the West.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xuanzang

--

Faxian (traditional Chinese: 法顯; simplified Chinese: 法显; pinyin: Fǎxiǎn; also romanized as Fa-Hien, Fa-hsien, Fa Xian, et al.) (337 – c. 422 CE) was a Chinese Buddhist monk who traveled to India, Sri Lanka and Kapilavastu in today's Nepal between 399 and 412 to acquire Buddhist scriptures. His journey is described in his important travelogue, A Record of Buddhist Kingdoms, Being an Account by the Chinese Monk Fa-Xian of his Travels in India and Ceylon in Search of the Buddhist Books of Discipline.

He is most known for his pilgrimage to Lumbini, the birthplace of Gautama Buddha. Faxian is a Chinese pilgrim and scholar who visited India during the reign of Chandragupta II. Faxian claimed that demons and dragons were the original inhabitants of Ceylon (Sri Lanka).^[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faxian

by Propagandhi711 Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:21 am

terrific research by all indeed. if we can make a tenuous connection between akbar, foxian, deng xeng cheng, hindi and mandarin we've got ourselves a 3 page discussion for the weekend.

by doofus_maximus Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:27 am

charvaka wrote:It is possible that Khariboli arose out of a synthesis between Mandarin and the ungrammatical apabhramsas that were prevalent in northindia. It is a well-known fact that travelers from China like Xuanzang and Faxian visited India and traveled extensively in the region between Takshashila and Pataliputra. Crucially, they wrote about their travels in Chinese. This means that Chinese was understood by the common man in northindia.

Here are some random copy-pastes to prove my point. Let me know if you find anything in here that contradicts my views. I am hoping you won't.

Xuanzang (Chinese: 玄奘; pinyin: Xuánzàng; Wade–Giles: Hsüan-tsang Sanskrit: ह्वेनसांग) (c. 602 – 664) was a famous Chinese Buddhist monk, scholar, traveler, and translator who described the interaction between China and India in the early Tang period. Born in Henan province of China in 602 or 603, from boyhood he took to reading sacred books, including the Chinese Classics and the writings of the ancient sages.

While residing in the city of Luoyang, Xuanzang entered Buddhist monkhood at the age of thirteen. Due to the political and social unrest caused by the fall of the Sui dynasty, he went to Chengdu in Sichuan
(Szechuan), where he was ordained at the age of twenty. He later
traveled throughout China in search of sacred books of Buddhism. At
length, he came to Chang'an, then under the peaceful rule of Emperor Taizong of Tang. Here Xuanzang developed the desire to visit India. He knew about Faxian's visit to India and, like him, was concerned about the incomplete and misinterpreted nature of the Buddhist scriptures that had reached China.

He became famous for his seventeen year overland journey to India, which is recorded in detail in the classic Chinese text Great Tang Records on the Western Regions, which in turn provided the inspiration for the popular epic novel Journey to the West.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xuanzang

--

Faxian (traditional Chinese: 法顯; simplified Chinese: 法显; pinyin: Fǎxiǎn; also romanized as Fa-Hien, Fa-hsien, Fa Xian, et al.) (337 – c. 422 CE) was a Chinese Buddhist monk who traveled to India, Sri Lanka and Kapilavastu in today's Nepal between 399 and 412 to acquire Buddhist scriptures. His journey is described in his important travelogue, A Record of Buddhist Kingdoms, Being an Account by the Chinese Monk Fa-Xian of his Travels in India and Ceylon in Search of the Buddhist Books of Discipline.

He is most known for his pilgrimage to Lumbini, the birthplace of Gautama Buddha. Faxian is a Chinese pilgrim and scholar who visited India during the reign of Chandragupta II. Faxian claimed that demons and dragons were the original inhabitants of Ceylon (Sri Lanka).^[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faxian

I quoted you in this reply of mine. Please quote this thread again. We will reach 3 pages by the end of this day.

by Guest Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:28 am

by charvaka Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:30 am

Another important piece of evidence for this theory comes from eminent leaders of both countries, Jawaharlal Nehru and Zhou Enlai. According to these leaders, the two languages Hindi and Chinese are brothers. The slogan Hindi Chini Bhai Bhai was coined to convey this. In this context it must be understood that chini does not mean sugar, but it means the language of China. It would make no sense -- even to me -- that Hindi is the brother of sugar.

by charvaka Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:32 am

doofus_maximus wrote:
charvaka wrote:It is possible that Khariboli arose out of a synthesis between Mandarin and the ungrammatical apabhramsas that were prevalent in northindia. It is a well-known fact that travelers from China like Xuanzang and Faxian visited India and traveled extensively in the region between Takshashila and Pataliputra. Crucially, they wrote about their travels in Chinese. This means that Chinese was understood by the common man in northindia.

Here are some random copy-pastes to prove my point. Let me know if you find anything in here that contradicts my views. I am hoping you won't.

Xuanzang (Chinese: 玄奘; pinyin: Xuánzàng; Wade–Giles: Hsüan-tsang Sanskrit: ह्वेनसांग) (c. 602 – 664) was a famous Chinese Buddhist monk, scholar, traveler, and translator who described the interaction between China and India in the early Tang period. Born in Henan province of China in 602 or 603, from boyhood he took to reading sacred books, including the Chinese Classics and the writings of the ancient sages.

While residing in the city of Luoyang, Xuanzang entered Buddhist monkhood at the age of thirteen. Due to the political and social unrest caused by the fall of the Sui dynasty, he went to Chengdu in Sichuan
(Szechuan), where he was ordained at the age of twenty. He later
traveled throughout China in search of sacred books of Buddhism. At
length, he came to Chang'an, then under the peaceful rule of Emperor Taizong of Tang. Here Xuanzang developed the desire to visit India. He knew about Faxian's visit to India and, like him, was concerned about the incomplete and misinterpreted nature of the Buddhist scriptures that had reached China.

He became famous for his seventeen year overland journey to India, which is recorded in detail in the classic Chinese text Great Tang Records on the Western Regions, which in turn provided the inspiration for the popular epic novel Journey to the West.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xuanzang

--

Faxian (traditional Chinese: 法顯; simplified Chinese: 法显; pinyin: Fǎxiǎn; also romanized as Fa-Hien, Fa-hsien, Fa Xian, et al.) (337 – c. 422 CE) was a Chinese Buddhist monk who traveled to India, Sri Lanka and Kapilavastu in today's Nepal between 399 and 412 to acquire Buddhist scriptures. His journey is described in his important travelogue, A Record of Buddhist Kingdoms, Being an Account by the Chinese Monk Fa-Xian of his Travels in India and Ceylon in Search of the Buddhist Books of Discipline.

He is most known for his pilgrimage to Lumbini, the birthplace of Gautama Buddha. Faxian is a Chinese pilgrim and scholar who visited India during the reign of Chandragupta II. Faxian claimed that demons and dragons were the original inhabitants of Ceylon (Sri Lanka).^[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faxian

I quoted you in this reply of mine. Please quote this thread again. We will reach 3 pages by the end of this day.

Yes yes. Later in the day, I shall be re-copy-pasting the same content per my copy-paste rules. I trust that everybody will believe what I copy-paste by the time I copy-paste it the fifth or sixth time.

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:10 am

many thanks. the information content on this thread is increasing at an exponential rate. soon we will have a collective ph.d. thesis to submit to the university of florida. hopefully they will publish it online so that future generations can win arguments about the chinese origins of khariboli. please continue. don't forget to bold your excerpts and underline and redden as necessary.

by Guest Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:26 am

charvaka wrote:
doofus_maximus wrote:
charvaka wrote:It is possible that Khariboli arose out of a synthesis between Mandarin and the ungrammatical apabhramsas that were prevalent in northindia. It is a well-known fact that travelers from China like Xuanzang and Faxian visited India and traveled extensively in the region between Takshashila and Pataliputra. Crucially, they wrote about their travels in Chinese. This means that Chinese was understood by the common man in northindia.

Here are some random copy-pastes to prove my point. Let me know if you find anything in here that contradicts my views. I am hoping you won't.

Xuanzang (Chinese: 玄奘; pinyin: Xuánzàng; Wade–Giles: Hsüan-tsang Sanskrit: ह्वेनसांग) (c. 602 – 664) was a famous Chinese Buddhist monk, scholar, traveler, and translator who described the interaction between China and India in the early Tang period. Born in Henan province of China in 602 or 603, from boyhood he took to reading sacred books, including the Chinese Classics and the writings of the ancient sages.

While residing in the city of Luoyang, Xuanzang entered Buddhist monkhood at the age of thirteen. Due to the political and social unrest caused by the fall of the Sui dynasty, he went to Chengdu in Sichuan
(Szechuan), where he was ordained at the age of twenty. He later
traveled throughout China in search of sacred books of Buddhism. At
length, he came to Chang'an, then under the peaceful rule of Emperor Taizong of Tang. Here Xuanzang developed the desire to visit India. He knew about Faxian's visit to India and, like him, was concerned about the incomplete and misinterpreted nature of the Buddhist scriptures that had reached China.

He became famous for his seventeen year overland journey to India, which is recorded in detail in the classic Chinese text Great Tang Records on the Western Regions, which in turn provided the inspiration for the popular epic novel Journey to the West.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xuanzang

--

Faxian (traditional Chinese: 法顯; simplified Chinese: 法显; pinyin: Fǎxiǎn; also romanized as Fa-Hien, Fa-hsien, Fa Xian, et al.) (337 – c. 422 CE) was a Chinese Buddhist monk who traveled to India, Sri Lanka and Kapilavastu in today's Nepal between 399 and 412 to acquire Buddhist scriptures. His journey is described in his important travelogue, A Record of Buddhist Kingdoms, Being an Account by the Chinese Monk Fa-Xian of his Travels in India and Ceylon in Search of the Buddhist Books of Discipline.

He is most known for his pilgrimage to Lumbini, the birthplace of Gautama Buddha. Faxian is a Chinese pilgrim and scholar who visited India during the reign of Chandragupta II. Faxian claimed that demons and dragons were the original inhabitants of Ceylon (Sri Lanka).^[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faxian

I quoted you in this reply of mine. Please quote this thread again. We will reach 3 pages by the end of this day.
Yes yes. Later in the day, I shall be re-copy-pasting the same content per my copy-paste rules. I trust that everybody will believe what I copy-paste by the time I copy-paste it the fifth or sixth time.

.

<I have nothing to add to this thread right now; so here's my contribution. I'll see you again and dot you on Page2>

by charvaka Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:45 pm

This website highlights the similarities between Mandarin and Khariboli. According to this website, neither of the languages are agglutinative. They review many different parameters and conclude this.

http://www.comparical.com/comparison/hindi-vs-mandarin-standard-MTE1MzQ

PS: Please don't read the full piece. Focus on the agglutinative aspect that I am highlighting. Thanks.

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:55 pm

i have discovered another important commonality between the two languages that you carvaka obviously failed to notice from your link. they're both spoken in the united states thereby putting our thesis on even firmer footing!

by charvaka Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:57 pm

According to Wikipedia, Mandarin and Khariboli are both pluricentric languages. That is a big word, and it must mean something related to grammar. Here is the obligatory copy-paste.

Portuguese varies mainly between Brazilian Portuguese and European Portuguese. Both varieties have undergone significant and divergent developments in phonology and the grammar of their pronominal
systems. Brazilian Portuguese is considerably more conservative in its
phonology, but much less conservative in its grammar. The result is that
communication between the two varieties of the language without
previous exposure can be occasionally difficult, especially for a
Brazilian attempting to understand a European. Because of the extensive
and long-term influence of the Brazilian telenovelas, a Portuguese national has little problem in understanding the Brazilian accent and specific words.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluricentric_language

by Guest Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:40 pm

I don't know how to speak,read or write in Khariboli or Mandarin - all I care about is to further my agenda.

Both Khariboli and Mandarin speakers eat rice.

Howdoyoulikemenow?

by charvaka Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:41 pm

The evidence that Khariboli is an offshoot of Mandarin keeps piling up. Consider this latest set of evidence. The words for mother and father in Mandarin are mama (or ma) and papa. The words in Khariboli are ma and papa. This conclusively proves that Khariboli originated from Mandarin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mama_and_papa

by charvaka Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:01 pm

Tracy Whitney wrote:

I take exception to your rolling of eyes on this important thread. Do you want to know what Be Nice Please said about such rolling of eyes?

by charvaka Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:03 pm

Richard Hed wrote:I don't know how to speak,read or write in Khariboli or Mandarin - all I care about is to further my agenda.

Both Khariboli and Mandarin speakers eat rice.

Howdoyoulikemenow?

My agenda is to unite the people of northindia and China. Your agenda is to divide them. You are a regionalist and I am a nationalist. Most Chinese people are nationalists, as are most people of northindia.

by charvaka Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:08 pm

I am now going to offer further insights into the Hindi-Chini synthesis that took place. Buddha was a cool dude who was from northindia. He gave his first sermon in Utthar Pradesh. But not many northindians follow him now. Many Chinese people follow Buddha. This proves that the ties between Utthar Pradeshis and Chinese people are stronger than the ties between Utthar Pradeshis and Biharis. Regionalists lose. Nationalists -- which in this context means me -- win.

He then travelled to the Deer Park near Vārāṇasī (Benares) in northern India, where he set in motion what Buddhists call the Wheel of Dharma
by delivering his first sermon to the five companions with whom he had
sought enlightenment. Together with him, they formed the first saṅgha: the company of Buddhist monks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha#Enlightenment

by charvaka Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:29 pm

Richard Hed wrote:I don't know how to speak,read or write in Khariboli or Mandarin - all I care about is to further my agenda.

Both Khariboli and Mandarin speakers eat rice.

Howdoyoulikemenow?

I conducted further research into this unique rice-eating habit of the Kharibolians and the Chinese. What I found adds to the overwhelming evidence of Mandarin-Khariboli synthesis. Turns out that rice was first domesticated in China. Therefore the Kharibolians must have borrowed rice-eating at the same time they borrowed language from the Chinese.

The earliest rice domestication in China

Recent discoveries of rice have stimulated debate on rice (Oryza sativa) domestication in China. Fuller et al.
(2007) have cast doubt on the previous identification of domesticated
rice from the Yangzi and Huai River regions (Figure 1). Their main
arguments are the following: (1) rice from the Shangshan and Kuahuqiao
sites along the lower Yangzi River was wild; (2) small rice at the Jiahu
site along the upper Huai River was wild, and made no contribution to
domesticated rice; and (3) fully domesticated rice evolved around 4000
BC in China. Their arguments, however, rely on problematic methods and
an incomplete database. By reviewing Shangshan and Jiahu data, we
briefly discuss the early rice domestication processes, and our further
arguments will be published elsewhere.

Shangshan rice

Charred rice remains embedded in potsherds at Shangshan (11000-9000
cal BP) are the earliest relevant record in the Lower Yangzi River
valley (Jiang & Liu 2006). Macrofossil and phytolith evidence has
revealed the presence of chaffs, stalks, and leaves in pottery (Zheng
& Jiang in press), suggesting that rice was likely collected by
either uprooting or cutting stalks with knives or sickles. Harvesting by
uprooting or cutting stalks would have encouraged the selection of
mature spikelets with tough rachis. This method probably reduced the
chances of slow-ripening spikelets to mature, and of spikelets with a
brittle rachis to be selected, eventually leading to successful cereal
domestication (Higham 1995; Smith 1998: 73).

http://antiquity.ac.uk/projgall/liu1/index.html

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:44 pm

another interesting point -- the nepali people who sit between the chinese and indians are intermediate in appearance between indians and chinese and yet the language they speak is decidedly similar to khariboli. this is definitive evidence of the transition of language as it passed through from china towards india through nepal.

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:46 pm

i am also not sure why the kharibolians want to claim kinship with marathis and gujaratis when clearly their language evolved from mandarin. it is the chinese they should be claiming kinship with first.

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:49 pm

more evidence:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CELW8KKc4ng

by doofus_maximus Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:49 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:another interesting point -- the nepali people who sit between the chinese and indians are intermediate in appearance between indians and chinese and yet the language they speak is decidedly similar to khariboli. this is definitive evidence of the transition of language as it passed through from china towards india through nepal.

You forgot to mention how they traveled, first class, 2-tier AC or second class and where they took a U-turn.

by charvaka Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:24 pm

Truth be told, I know very little about Utthar Pradesh or China. But that's where the internets come in. Here is the next piece in the mounting pile of evidence that Khariboli is an offshoot of Mandarin.

Did you know that the word Mandarin is very similar to the Khariboli word for Diggy-ji's future position after 2014 elections? This further proves that a synthesis did take place between Mandarin and Khariboli.

by charvaka Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:24 pm

It is that time of afternoon when my food-coma is taking over. So I shall stop writing "original" thoughts on this remarkable Mandarin-Khariboli synthesis and just repeat myself. Brace yourselves, and take cover if you need to. You have been warned.

by charvaka Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:25 pm

charvaka wrote:It is possible that Khariboli arose out of a synthesis between Mandarin and the ungrammatical apabhramsas that were prevalent in northindia. It is a well-known fact that travelers from China like Xuanzang and Faxian visited India and traveled extensively in the region between Takshashila and Pataliputra. Crucially, they wrote about their travels in Chinese. This means that Chinese was understood by the common man in northindia.

Here are some random copy-pastes to prove my point. Let me know if you find anything in here that contradicts my views. I am hoping you won't.

Xuanzang (Chinese: 玄奘; pinyin: Xuánzàng; Wade–Giles: Hsüan-tsang Sanskrit: ह्वेनसांग) (c. 602 – 664) was a famous Chinese Buddhist monk, scholar, traveler, and translator who described the interaction between China and India in the early Tang period. Born in Henan province of China in 602 or 603, from boyhood he took to reading sacred books, including the Chinese Classics and the writings of the ancient sages.

While residing in the city of Luoyang, Xuanzang entered Buddhist monkhood at the age of thirteen. Due to the political and social unrest caused by the fall of the Sui dynasty, he went to Chengdu in Sichuan
(Szechuan), where he was ordained at the age of twenty. He later
traveled throughout China in search of sacred books of Buddhism. At
length, he came to Chang'an, then under the peaceful rule of Emperor Taizong of Tang. Here Xuanzang developed the desire to visit India. He knew about Faxian's visit to India and, like him, was concerned about the incomplete and misinterpreted nature of the Buddhist scriptures that had reached China.

He became famous for his seventeen year overland journey to India, which is recorded in detail in the classic Chinese text Great Tang Records on the Western Regions, which in turn provided the inspiration for the popular epic novel Journey to the West.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xuanzang

--

Faxian (traditional Chinese: 法顯; simplified Chinese: 法显; pinyin: Fǎxiǎn; also romanized as Fa-Hien, Fa-hsien, Fa Xian, et al.) (337 – c. 422 CE) was a Chinese Buddhist monk who traveled to India, Sri Lanka and Kapilavastu in today's Nepal between 399 and 412 to acquire Buddhist scriptures. His journey is described in his important travelogue, A Record of Buddhist Kingdoms, Being an Account by the Chinese Monk Fa-Xian of his Travels in India and Ceylon in Search of the Buddhist Books of Discipline.

He is most known for his pilgrimage to Lumbini, the birthplace of Gautama Buddha. Faxian is a Chinese pilgrim and scholar who visited India during the reign of Chandragupta II. Faxian claimed that demons and dragons were the original inhabitants of Ceylon (Sri Lanka).^[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faxian

This is my formal second submission of this evidence. At this stage, you are supposed to think, "wha???"

by charvaka Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:26 pm

charvaka wrote:Another important piece of evidence for this theory comes from eminent leaders of both countries, Jawaharlal Nehru and Zhou Enlai. According to these leaders, the two languages Hindi and Chinese are brothers. The slogan Hindi Chini Bhai Bhai was coined to convey this. In this context it must be understood that chini does not mean sugar, but it means the language of China. It would make no sense -- even to me -- that Hindi is the brother of sugar.

2nd submission.

by charvaka Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:28 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i am also not sure why the kharibolians want to claim kinship with marathis and gujaratis when clearly their language evolved from mandarin. it is the chinese they should be claiming kinship with first.

Jawaharlal Nehru, an eminent Kharibolian and a nationalist to the core, did not say Hindi-Marathi Bhai Bhai or Hindi-Gujarati Bhai Bhai. He said, Hindi-Chini Bhai Bhai. Regionalist Kharibolians who try to claim kinship on the basis of language or cultural ties with are wrong.

by charvaka Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:33 pm

charvaka wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i am also not sure why the kharibolians want to claim kinship with marathis and gujaratis when clearly their language evolved from mandarin. it is the chinese they should be claiming kinship with first.
Jawaharlal Nehru, an eminent Kharibolian and a nationalist to the core, did not say Hindi-Marathi Bhai Bhai or Hindi-Gujarati Bhai Bhai. He said, Hindi-Chini Bhai Bhai. Regionalist Kharibolians who try to claim kinship on the basis of language or cultural ties with are wrong.

It must be understood in this context that Chini does not mean sugar, but it means the Chinese national language, also called Mandarin. There are some crazy guys who claim that it does mean sugar in this connection. I am not that extreme. I am a moderate who holds reasonable beliefs. So I don't believe like those guys that Hindi and sugar are brothers.

by Propagandhi711 Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:42 pm

charvaka wrote:
charvaka wrote:Another important piece of evidence for this theory comes from eminent leaders of both countries, Jawaharlal Nehru and Zhou Enlai. According to these leaders, the two languages Hindi and Chinese are brothers. The slogan Hindi Chini Bhai Bhai was coined to convey this. In this context it must be understood that chini does not mean sugar, but it means the language of China. It would make no sense -- even to me -- that Hindi is the brother of sugar.
2nd submission.

ROFLLL

by Guest Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:10 pm

charvaka wrote:
Richard Hed wrote:I don't know how to speak,read or write in Khariboli or Mandarin - all I care about is to further my agenda.

Both Khariboli and Mandarin speakers eat rice.

Howdoyoulikemenow?
My agenda is to unite the people of northindia and China. Your agenda is to divide them. You are a regionalist and I am a nationalist. Most Chinese people are nationalists, as are most people of northindia.

Charvaka - as a regional nationalist - your khariboli-sugar-mandarin connection reasoning is untenable. In fact, I just saved a bunch of money by moving my car insurance to Geico, you trigot. If there was no connection between Khariboli and China - this movie would not have happened... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjC-tI_QKgw

by charvaka Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:17 pm

Here is further evidence of Mandarin-Khariboli synthesis: Gobi/Paneer Manchurian served by Taj Chaat House in a university town of not insignificant size.

Look under North Indian Curries in this menu: http://www.yesandyesfoods.com/page11.html. You can see that Gobi/Paneer Manchurian is listed.

It proves that Manchurian food from China moved to North India and became part of North Indian food. This is further evidence of the indelible ties that bind the Chinese people with Kharibolian people.

by charvaka Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:21 pm

Here is some conclusive evidence that the culinary links between Kharibolian and Chinese people are stronger than those between Kharibolian and southern Indian people.

As of 2007, Chinese cuisine ranks India's most favorite cuisine (after
local food), growing at 9% annually. It is the most favoured option when
young people go out to eat and the second favorite (after south Indian cuisine) when families dine out.^[8]

Clearly young people feel a stronger connection with Chinese than with southern Indian food.

Note: when reading the bold passage above, please ignore everything in parentheses. If the author meant that to be read, he would have not put parentheses around it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Chinese_cuisine

by charvaka Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:23 pm

Richard Hed wrote:In fact, I just saved a bunch of money by moving my car insurance to Geico, you trigot.

utthar pradeshi khariboli an offshoot of mandarin? 3077217049

I am unable to watch YouTube videos at present. I shall conclude in the interim that your video supports my thesis.

by indophile Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:29 pm

Indian (khariboli?) song sung by a Chinese artist. Look at her ease in rendering the song. Could there be some connection? Smile

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnsAF9WSN04

by charvaka Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:32 pm

Chinese influence On Indian food is indeed immense.The Chinese influence on Indian food gave birth to a whole new facet in
Indian cuisine popular as the Indian Chinese Cuisine. Spices like
turmeric, cumin, and coriander along with hot chili, yoghurt, garlic and
ginger are used in these dishes. Non- staple dishes in Chinese cuisine
are of two types. It can be served with the helping of gravy or without
the gravy. Manchurian and Szechwan are other popular Chinese cuisines in
India. These are often served in Indian style by frying them deep in
the oil and adding chili to it.

http://www.indianetzone.com/37/chinese_influence_on_indian_food_indian_cuisine.htm

by doofus_maximus Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:32 pm

This whole thread is full of WIN.

PS: Apologize for using a cliche.

by charvaka Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:39 pm

I am puzzled by Rashmun's silence on this vital topic. It looks like all the conclusive evidence presented on this thread has silenced regionalists once and for all. Regionalism murdabad, national synthesis zindabad.

by doofus_maximus Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:45 pm

Richard Hed wrote:
charvaka wrote:
Richard Hed wrote:I don't know how to speak,read or write in Khariboli or Mandarin - all I care about is to further my agenda.

Both Khariboli and Mandarin speakers eat rice.

Howdoyoulikemenow?
My agenda is to unite the people of northindia and China. Your agenda is to divide them. You are a regionalist and I am a nationalist. Most Chinese people are nationalists, as are most people of northindia.

Charvaka - as a regional nationalist - your khariboli-sugar-mandarin connection reasoning is untenable. In fact, I just saved a bunch of money by moving my car insurance to Geico, you trigot. If there was no connection between Khariboli and China - this movie would not have happened... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjC-tI_QKgw

utthar pradeshi khariboli an offshoot of mandarin? TlFYN

by indophile Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:51 pm

The so called Moghalai cooking and Tandoori cooking could very well be Chinese. The cuisine from the other side of Hindukush was introduced in India during the Kushan dynasty days. Emperor Kanishka who established the Kushan rule in India with Peshawar (half way between his home city in China and farthest reach of the empire to the southeast, originally came from China.

by charvaka Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:59 pm

indophile wrote:Indian (khariboli?) song sung by a Chinese artist. Look at her ease in rendering the song. Could there be some connection?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnsAF9WSN04

Again, I can't see youtube videos right now. But tentatively I want to opine that there must be some connection. Otherwise why would anyone put up such a video on youtube?

by charvaka Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:15 pm

indophile wrote:The so called Moghalai cooking and Tandoori cooking could very well be Chinese. The cuisine from the other side of Hindukush was introduced in India during the Kushan dynasty days. Emperor Kanishka who established the Kushan rule in India with Peshawar (half way between his home city in China and farthest reach of the empire to the southeast, originally came from China.

OMFG. This is a big fundamental breakthrough in this research into Mandarin-Khariboli synthesis. Guess what, the lynchpin of this synthesis is... [trumpets blaring in the background] the Mughals.

Mughal (also Moghul or Mogul), a word related to the Mongols,

In China, ethnic Mongols can be found mainly in the central north region of China such as Inner Mongolia (smaller number of Mongols can also be found in Xinjiang in northwest China).

[Babar] was the eldest son of Omar Sheykh Mirzā,^[13] ruler of the Fergana Valley, the son of Abū Saʿīd Mirza (and grandson of Miran Shah, who was himself son of Timur) and his wife Qutlugh Nigar Khanum, daughter of Yunus Khan, the ruler of Moghulistan (and great-great grandson of Tughlugh Timur, the son of Esen Buqa I, who was the great-great-great grandson of Chaghatai Khan, the second born son of Genghis Khan)^[9]^[14]^[15]

The Yuan Dynasty (Chinese: 元朝, p Yuán Cháo; Mongolian: Dai Ön Ulus^[2]) was the Chinese branch of Mongol Borjigin dynasty established by Genghis Khan.

--

It is clear that the Mandarin-Khariboli synthesis happened through Babar and his descendents.

by charvaka Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:27 pm

Until about 20 years ago, most scholars of Mongol-era China
emphasized the destructive influence of Mongol rule.

It is true that the Mongols, in their conquest of both North
and South China, did considerable damage to these territories,
and that great loss of life certainly ensued. The population
of North China did decline somewhat, though earlier estimates
that there was a catastrophic decline in population have subsequently
been revised.

It is also true that the Mongols eliminated one of the most
basic of Chinese institutions — the civil service examinations.
The examinations remained banned until 1315, and even after
the ban was lifted, they were no longer the only means to
officialdom for the Yuan Dynasty, the dynasty that the Mongols
founded in 1271 C.E., as they had been in the past.

http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/mongols/china/china.htm--

Clearly the Mongols had a great influence on 13th and 14th century China. That influence got polished in China and was brought into India to create Khariboli. Now it is all clear to me. Mandarin-Khariboli bhai bhai.

by charvaka Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:01 pm

My internet research efforts have paid off. I have no found evidence that Mongols influenced the Chinese language. We already know that they brought that influence into India and created Kharboli. This scholarly article, which is so scholarly that it is only available in PDF form, confirms the thesis of Mandarin-Khariboli synthesis.

http://lacito.vjf.cnrs.fr/colloque/diaporamas/Cao2.pdf

See page 2 of this PDF. It has a map that clearly shows two regions that were under Mongol control: China, and Utthar Pradesh. All the annotation on the map is in Chinese, which I do not read. So I am unable to verify whether Utthar Pradesh was under their control at the same time. But we can safely infer that a scholarly thesis would not have colored Utthar Pradesh in the same color if it was not part of the Mongol-Chinese empire.

by charvaka Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:05 pm

See also page 3.

The Mongols used a mixed Chinese and Mongolian language referred to as Yuan baihua.

Yuan baihua was polished in China and was taken to Utthar Pradesh on horseback by Zahir-ud-din Babur. There it gave birth to Khariboli.

by charvaka Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:07 pm

charvaka wrote:Chinese influence On Indian food is indeed immense.The Chinese influence on Indian food gave birth to a whole new facet in
Indian cuisine popular as the Indian Chinese Cuisine. Spices like
turmeric, cumin, and coriander along with hot chili, yoghurt, garlic and
ginger are used in these dishes. Non- staple dishes in Chinese cuisine
are of two types. It can be served with the helping of gravy or without
the gravy. Manchurian and Szechwan are other popular Chinese cuisines in
India. These are often served in Indian style by frying them deep in
the oil and adding chili to it.

http://www.indianetzone.com/37/chinese_influence_on_indian_food_indian_cuisine.htm

Not only is Chicken Manchurian popular in India, but it has also inspired dishes like Chicken 65. This is China's answer to the Arcot biryani.

by charvaka Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:57 pm

Akbar check
Faxian check
Xuanzang check
Babur check
Gobi Manchurian check

I hereby declare this thread a success. Yes I wanted to get past one page in a day but failed in that noble mission. But the range of topics covered is testament to the amazing synthesis that took place between Mandarin and Khariboli. I hereby declare victory on this topic.

by Guest Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:22 am

"x" is pronounced as "h" in mandarin?

by charvaka Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:56 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:"x" is pronounced as "h" in mandarin?

Yea. Hech is pronounced as aich in Khariboli and in Mandarin where the sound is depicted with the letter x in the Latin alphabet.

by Guest Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:28 am

charvaka wrote:This scholarly article, which is so scholarly that it is only available in PDF form, confirms the thesis of Mandarin-Khariboli synthesis.

Trigot Charvaka, did you know that 15 mins can save you 15% or more in Car Insurance? Also, Silk Route not only refers to that middling indipop group or that route for caravans but, also how you track mandarin patrons' skidmarks - on consuming khariboli delicacies like 'khariboli kadi'.

More example of synthesis -- coming soon to a theatre near you (if you live in cowbelt) - Get ready for the summer blockbuster:

The Gobi Manchurian Candidate.

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