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To the archaeologically curious: A comment on the ancient Gobekli Tepe in Turkey

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To the archaeologically curious:  A comment on the ancient Gobekli Tepe in Turkey Empty To the archaeologically curious: A comment on the ancient Gobekli Tepe in Turkey

Post by Seva Lamberdar Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:22 am

The recently excavated archeological site containing “temples” and other structures in Gobekli Tepe (GT) in southern Turkish region is said to be from 10000 BC, which in reality (accounting for the uncertainties in radiocarbon dating, as per Appendix in http://www.chcpublications.net/radcarbn.htm) could be from 1900 BC.

It seems that to justify the questionable age for GT (10000 BC according to radiocarbon dating), the site is being overly hyped through writings and videos as the oldest in the world, pre-dating agriculture and belonging to the hunter-gatherer era, and having the Pre Pottery Neolithic (PPN) connection.

Considering humans have used pottery (including clay pots and pans) since prehistoric times (well before 15000 BC), the association with PPN for GT (with questionable radiocarbon date 10000 BC) is quite preposterous.

Furthermore, since the site (“temples” for example ) at GT required cutting and shaping of huge stone pillars etc. (weighing in tons, as much as 50 tons), that type of enormous task would not have been carried out by builders without the help of metallic tools (made from copper, bronze or iron etc.) or at least until 5000 BC (7000 years ago) when humans first learnt the use of metals (or perhaps even as late as 4000 BC when the use of metallic tools became common). Thus the GT site, rather than being of a Pre Pottery Neolithic era, appears to be much younger, belonging probably to the post-metallic age and coming after 4000 BC (perhaps even as late as 1900 BC, after making corrections to the apparent radiocarbon date of 10000 BC).

The temples and other structures at GT (the southernmost point / hub in Turkey) probably arose initially (in 1900 BC or so) to “serve” traders and other travelers from Egypt, India and Greece etc. passing near the southern part of Europe The artwork at the site (especially in GT temples), showing pictures (line sketches) of a vast variety of animals (lions etc.), is not just local but also reflects the influence and variety (flora and fauna) from far-off places like India and Egypt etc.


It seems the GT settlements (temples) survived as long as the ancient route / routes connecting India, Egypt and Greece etc. via GT remained active. But when the travel between Egypt, India or Greece etc. via GT subsided a few hundred years later (a few centuries after 2000 BC),after travelers probably started taking other (perhaps southern, shorter and easier) routes between India and Egypt etc. thus bypassing GT altogether, the sites in GT (including the “temples” etc.) had no more use, were abandoned and shut down.

(Reference (to GT site): “GOBEKLI TEPE (10,000 BC) AND UNDERSTANDING HUMAN CIVILIZATION” ….. http://creative.sulekha.com/gobekli-tepe-10-000-bc-and-understanding-human-civilization_597553_blog)
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Post by Idéfix Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:42 pm

Sevaji, why do you not want the site to be from 10,000 BCE?
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Post by Seva Lamberdar Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:28 am

panini press wrote:Sevaji, why do you not want the site to be from 10,000 BCE?

Paniniji, because it does not seem to be 12000 yrs. old (or from 10000 BC) as explained earlier. Moreover, the 10000 BC date for the site is based on "radiocarbon dating" which is not a very reliable method, as indicated in the following (1 & 2),

(1) Limitations of Radiocarbon Dating:

"... carbon-14 dating has been shown to be far from perfect in measuring organic material. Seals that were freshly killed have been dated at 1,300 years old. Also, when scientists tested two parts of a frozen musk ox found in Fairbanks, Alaska, two vastly different dates were given. Radiocarbon testing falsely showed that one part of the musk ox was 24,000 years old, while another part was only 7,200 years old. .... ."
http://www.apologeticspress.org/DiscoveryPubPage.aspx?pub=2&issue=844&article=811

(2) Limitations and usefulness of radio-carbon dating:

'No matter how "useful" it is though, the radiocarbon method is still not capable of yielding accurate and reliable results. There are gross discrepancies, the chronology is uneven and relative, and the accepted dates are actually selected dates. This whole blessed thing is nothing but 13th century alchemy, and it all depends upon which funny paper you read.' Robert E. Lee, Radiocarbon: Ages in Error. Anthropological Journal of Canada, vol. 19 (3), 1981, pp. 9-29
http://www.chcpublications.net/radcarbn.htm
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Post by Hellsangel Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:31 am

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
panini press wrote:Sevaji, why do you not want the site to be from 10,000 BCE?

Paniniji, because it does not seem to be 12000 yrs. old (or from 10000 BC) as explained earlier. Moreover, the 10000 BC date for the site is based on "radiocarbon dating" which is not a very reliable method, as indicated in the following (1 & 2),

(1) Limitations of Radiocarbon Dating:

"... carbon-14 dating has been shown to be far from perfect in measuring organic material. Seals that were freshly killed have been dated at 1,300 years old. Also, when scientists tested two parts of a frozen musk ox found in Fairbanks, Alaska, two vastly different dates were given. Radiocarbon testing falsely showed that one part of the musk ox was 24,000 years old, while another part was only 7,200 years old. .... ."
http://www.apologeticspress.org/DiscoveryPubPage.aspx?pub=2&issue=844&article=811

(2) Limitations and usefulness of radio-carbon dating:

'No matter how "useful" it is though, the radiocarbon method is still not capable of yielding accurate and reliable results. There are gross discrepancies, the chronology is uneven and relative, and the accepted dates are actually selected dates. This whole blessed thing is nothing but 13th century alchemy, and it all depends upon which funny paper you read.' Robert E. Lee, Radiocarbon: Ages in Error. Anthropological Journal of Canada, vol. 19 (3), 1981, pp. 9-29
http://www.chcpublications.net/radcarbn.htm

So the Turin Shroud was in fact, authentic?
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Post by Seva Lamberdar Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:43 am

Hellsangel wrote:
So the Turin Shroud was in fact, authentic?

I didn't say or imply that. If you are interested, you can read more about the limitations of radiocarbon dating in http://www.chcpublications.net/radcarbn.htm
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Post by Idéfix Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:03 pm

So do you reject all findings of radiocarbon dating, or only those you don't like for other pre-existing reasons?
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Post by Seva Lamberdar Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:32 pm

Interesting question Paniniji, but no clear-cut answer.

Anyway, when the method used is questionable (the radiocarbon dating of Gobekli Tepe site in Turkey, “GOBEKLI TEPE (10,000 BC) AND UNDERSTANDING HUMAN CIVILIZATION”-- http://creative.sulekha.com/gobekli-tepe-10-000-bc-and-understanding-human-civilization_597553_blog) and the assumptions seem arbitrary (paraphrasing here, “the site is from the Pre Pottery Neolithic / PPN era and before the invention of wheel”), the questions would obviously arise on the shaping and sculpting of extremely massive stone pillars etc. (weighing as much as 50 tons). Such an enormous task would not be possible without the help of metallic tools, the use of which is known to have occurred only after 4000 BC (or 6000 years ago).The GT site therefore, notwithstanding the claims of its association with the PPN era and being from 10000BC (or 12000 years old) according to radiocarbon dating, appears to be much younger, perhaps only from 1900 BC (or as 3900 years old) as per the Appendix in http://www.chcpublications.net/radcarbn.htm.

Incidentally, in a similar case of arbitrary methodology and assumptions during a research to prove that agriculture originated in Turkey long ago and then spread to other places from there and that the mother of Sanskrit and other modern day languages was spoken in Turkey long ago, the authors performed analysis on computer while considering only two options for mother of Sanskrit etc., a language supposedly spoken in Turkish region (Anatolia) about 8500 years ago and another one in Pontic steppes 6000 years ago. As expected / contrived, the computer analysis confirmed that the mother of Sanskrit and other several modern languages was spoken in Anatolia (Turkey) about 8500 years ago and from there its influence spread to other places along with agriculture, Appendix A in “On the origins of the Vedas and Sanskrit (including the Aryan Invasion Theory,” http://lamberdar.hubpages.com/hub/origins-of-vedas-and-sanskrit).

In this regard, even the use of genetic testing in the study of migrations of people during ancient times through the identification of certain genetic markers in people living these days is fraught with uncertainties. The basic idea behind this technique is that matching of certain genetic markers in people living these days in different places is the result of migrations of their ancestors long ago. However, this is not necessarily true, as explained in “Genetic testing issues in the study of ancient population migrations in India,” http://lamberdar.hubpages.com/hub/genetic-testing_population-migrations. For example, the similarity in genetic markers currently can also be the result of epigenetics (caused by similar long term environmental conditions and lifestyles of people / families living for generations in different places) and not just due to the ancestors migrating long ago between different places. Since there is no way to separate the effects of long term environmental epigenetics from long ago migratory genetics during genetic testing, this makes the results from genetic testing for studying ancient migrations meaningless.


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Post by Idéfix Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:37 pm

So do you think the people who erected these statues had metal tools? The largest of these weighed over 80 tons.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MoaiTo the archaeologically curious:  A comment on the ancient Gobekli Tepe in Turkey 1024px-Ahu_Tongariki
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Post by Seva Lamberdar Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:02 pm

panini press wrote:So do you think the people who erected these statues had metal tools? The largest of these weighed over 80 tons.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MoaiTo the archaeologically curious:  A comment on the ancient Gobekli Tepe in Turkey 1024px-Ahu_Tongariki



My response at https://such.forumotion.com/t10204-questions-and-comments-on-the-study-of-ancient-sites-and-cultures#77959
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Post by Vakavaka Pakapaka Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:53 am

panini press wrote:Sevaji, why do you not want the site to be from 10,000 BCE?

Typical Digvijaya type question!

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Post by Idéfix Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:54 am

Diggyji will one day move from hamla-kuttaji of Congress party and become grih-mantriji of India. Then you will eat your words, guruvu-gaaru.
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Post by Vakavaka Pakapaka Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:57 am

panini press wrote:So do you think the people who erected these statues had metal tools? The largest of these weighed over 80 tons.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MoaiTo the archaeologically curious:  A comment on the ancient Gobekli Tepe in Turkey 1024px-Ahu_Tongariki

These statues indicate that monomaniacs were not good at maritime "exploration"! Basketball

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Post by Idéfix Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:00 am

Guruvu-gaaru, if all you have is a hammer, every problem looks to you like a nail. You and your monomaniacs!
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